Roman Catholicism and (Twelver) Shia Islam

[Vinni]

As a Catholic, I notice some astounding similarities between Shia Islam and my denomination (Roman Catholicism).

Both Catholics and Shias are quite misunderstood, with people accusing us of "idol worship" by venerating our saints (Catholic), or the imams and Ahl al-bayt. (Shia)

Also, we're both known for disagreeing with "famous figures" like how Catholics essentially disagree with Martin Luther (who is famous among the West and contributed to Western ideals in a sense) and how Shias essentially disagree with Abu Bakr (the first Caliph) and Aisha (Mother of All Believers and the Prophet Muhammad's third wife).

We both emphasize the concept of sacrifice and atonement, free will, clerical authority, etc.

Also, Catholicism and Shia Islam, despite one being the majority and the other a minority, were both victims of oppression for centuries by Protestants, Orthodox, and Sunnis. 

 

As a Catholic who is interested in Shia Islam, I feel like the conversion process would be easier since we already have a striking amount of similarities.

[Eddie Mecca]

Mary, mother of Jesus (peace be upon her) is highly revered and respected in Islam in general, but particularly so in Shi'ism and Sufism. She's considered one of, if not thee, most holy, pure, pious, and saintly women to have ever walked the planet. She's considered a role model for all religious and spiritually-centered women. Like Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Shi'ism places a special emphasis on sainthood and the value of relics owned by extremely righteous devotees of Allah. The importance and celestial functions of angels and archangels are also emphasized or stressed.

Edited May 12 by Eddie Mecca

[Silas]

My mother was Roman Catholic and my father was a Swedish Protestant. I was raised in the Catholic faith, but fell away from it many years ago

The things I liked about it were

1. Hierarchy and tradition 

2. Asceticism

3. The appeal to the intellect 

but the things I had trouble with included

1. Concepts like purgatory (from Maccabees --a book protestants don't even recognize)

2. Excessive veneration of Mary, icons, etc. 

 

[TheWayofTheSalaaf]

On 5/11/2025 at 12:47 PM, Vinni said:

As a Catholic, I notice some astounding similarities between Shia Islam and my denomination (Roman Catholicism).

Both Catholics and Shias are quite misunderstood, with people accusing us of "idol worship" by venerating our saints (Catholic), or the imams and Ahl al-bayt. (Shia)

Also, we're both known for disagreeing with "famous figures" like how Catholics essentially disagree with Martin Luther (who is famous among the West and contributed to Western ideals in a sense) and how Shias essentially disagree with Abu Bakr (the first Caliph) and Aisha (Mother of All Believers and the Prophet Muhammad's third wife).

We both emphasize the concept of sacrifice and atonement, free will, clerical authority, etc.

Also, Catholicism and Shia Islam, despite one being the majority and the other a minority, were both victims of oppression for centuries by Protestants, Orthodox, and Sunnis. 

 

As a Catholic who is interested in Shia Islam, I feel like the conversion process would be easier since we already have a striking amount of similarities.

I can see many similarities as well, i think there are forms of islam that are closer to catholic practices, such as veneration of saints and dhikr beads or even pilgrimages to shrines. I was a Puritan nontrinitarian Christian. I found I had alot more in common with Muslims than I did with most Christians which made my reverting to islam easy and why I liked the salafi philosophy. It wasn't a big leap for me. At one point I use to tell my Muslim friends I was a salafi Christian. There are alot of different flavors. Sometimes you can have more differences between sects than between religions as weird as that might sound.

[Vinni]

To be fair, I can also relate to Buddhism, Sikhism, and Hinduism too to an extent. However, I'm afraid of falling back into my "Omnist" phase because it was a VERY confusing time for me. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, TheWayofTheSalaaf said:

I liked the salafi philosophy. It wasn't a big leap for me. At one point I use to tell my Muslim friends I was a salafi Christian.

Salam however so called Salafi philosophy has been driven from distorted Judaism likewise believing to seeing Allah & considering body parts for him & etc ; which objection of Salafis with Shias is about too much veneration of Sahabas by them  in order to decrease or even deny status of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) ; which in most radical Salafi viewpoint  likewise Wahabis only difference of prophet Muhammad (pbu) with other people just has been delivering divine message ; which even they have fabricated narration about superiority of three Sunni caliph over prophet Muhammad (pbu)  ; which in similar fashion their objection with pilgrimage has been based on decreasing or even denying status of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) ; which even at first years of uprising Wahabi movement after demolishing shrines of three infallible Imams  in Baqee cemetery so then they have tried to demolish shrine of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Kaaba  so then move his blessed body to an unknown place after digging his grave which they have been stopped due to standing whole of muslim  community whether all Sunni schools & Shia muslims  against them ; which still hardcore Wahabis have dream of demolishing the Kaaba under guise of purifying it from affection of keeping idols inside it ; which in similar fashion they have opposed dhikr beads because first time it has been created by lady Fatima (sa) from soil over grave of Hamza uncle of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as negative resistance against Sunni caliphs which saying dhikr of divine names& attributes  by her so later creating beads  & Turbah from soil over grave of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has been following her negative resistance against cursed Umayyads & rest of oppressors ; which also besides of silent resistance  methods & dhikrs which have been introduced by rest of infallible Imams   have had hidden divine benefits for Shia muslims during hardships ; which Salafis & Wahabis have found an excuse for objection of it  by misdeeds of Sufis & their wrong distorted dhikrs for objection of dhikr of Allah & his attributes according to procedure of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which it has been against their favorite oppressors & tyrants & enemies of Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) . 

[TheWayofTheSalaaf]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam however so called Salafi philosophy has been driven from distorted Judaism likewise believing to seeing Allah & considering body parts for him & etc ; which objection of Salafis with Shias is about too much veneration of Sahabas by them  in order to decrease or even deny status of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) ; which in most radical Salafi viewpoint  likewise Wahabis only difference of prophet Muhammad (pbu) with other people just has been delivering divine message ; which even they have fabricated narration about superiority of three Sunni caliph over prophet Muhammad (pbu)  ; which in similar fashion their objection with pilgrimage has been based on decreasing or even denying status of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) ; which even at first years of uprising Wahabi movement after demolishing shrines of three infallible Imams  in Baqee cemetery so then they have tried to demolish shrine of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Kaaba  so then move his blessed body to an unknown place after digging his grave which they have been stopped due to standing whole of muslim  community whether all Sunni schools & Shia muslims  against them ; which still hardcore Wahabis have dream of demolishing the Kaaba under guise of purifying it from affection of keeping idols inside it ; which in similar fashion they have opposed dhikr beads because first time it has been created by lady Fatima (sa) from soil over grave of Hamza uncle of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as negative resistance against Sunni caliphs which saying dhikr of divine names& attributes  by her so later creating beads  & Turbah from soil over grave of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has been following her negative resistance against cursed Umayyads & rest of oppressors ; which also besides of silent resistance  methods & dhikrs which have been introduced by rest of infallible Imams   have had hidden divine benefits for Shia muslims during hardships ; which Salafis & Wahabis have found an excuse for objection of it  by misdeeds of Sufis & their wrong distorted dhikrs for objection of dhikr of Allah & his attributes according to procedure of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which it has been against their favorite oppressors & tyrants & enemies of Ahlubayt (عليه السلام) . 

You remind me of a shia version of a wahhabi lol.

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, TheWayofTheSalaaf said:

even pilgrimages to shrines.

Salam

Close Relation between the Soul and the Grave

Muhaddith Jazaeri ((رضي الله عنه).) mentions at the end of Anwarun Nomaniya: If you ask when souls live in facsimile bodies in the Valley of Peace, why we have been asked to visit graves (for reciting Fatiha and prayers)? And how do the souls understand that a visitor has arrived when they are not present in the graves?

The reply is that it has been narrated from Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) that though the souls live in the Valley of Peace, their relations with graves remain intact and they know about the visitors and recognize them. The Holy Imam has said that souls are like sun. The sun remains in the sky, but its rays cover the whole earth.

Likewise, the souls’ covering or encirclement is concerned with knowledge and comprehension.

Reflection of Sunrays in a Mirror

Just as the appearance and reflection is relatively much more at a mirror, the attention of souls and their covering is more at their graves. It is so because the soul had lived in those bodies for several years and gained much favours due to them. That is why they will focus their attention there.

This also provides an answer to the one who asks as to why we should go to the grave when the Imam is present at every place and thus, there is no difference in one place and the other. Doubtlessly, the graves of Holy Imams and religious leaders are the centers of the attention of Holy souls and the places where divine favors keep raining. Angels come and go there.

So, if anybody wants to get full benefit from those Holy personalities, he should never give up visiting the Holy shrines and must try their best to go there.

https://al-islam.org/barzakh-purgatory-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/barzakh

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, Silas said:

Concepts like purgatory (from Maccabees --a book protestants don't even recognize)

Hi

Why no Reward or Punishment is Given to this Earthly Body?

Some people raise here a weak doubt and say: The soul after one’s death gets connected with a fine body called facsimile body, which is just like this earthen body, as described earlier, and also sees (tastes) reward or torture with the same facsimile body. Now here arises a question:

When man had worshipped God in this earthen body, how reward is given to the other body? Or man had committed sins in the material body, which has been disintegrated now after death, how is it that the punishment is meted out to the other body? There can be several answers to this question.

Every Soul has Two Kinds of Bodies

As Allamah Majlisi ((رضي الله عنه).) has written, the facsimile body is not any outward thing, which may be brought near the grave after one’s death and then, for example, it may be said to it: O soul! Now live in this body.

Rather, a facsimile body is a fine body, which lives even now in this world with man’s earthly body. Every soul has two bodies: A fine (subtle) body and a thick (dense) body. Man has prayed and sinned in both these bodies. This matter must be well understood. So we are giving the example of a dream.

During a dream, these two bodies get separated. What a man sees in his dream is the behavior or deed of this facsimile body, which walks, talks etc. Within twinkling of eye man reaches Kerbala, Holy Mashad, tours from east to west.

This shows that the facsimile body remains with man always. But after death, it separates from the material body. This statement of Majlisi ((رضي الله عنه).) is a very studied one. There also are many more testimonies.

The Soul is either Punished or Rewarded

Another answer is that after death, human soul turns into the same earthen form of body. It does not get connected with any outside body. Rather the soul takes up the form of material body. Now, you may call it a facsimile body, Barzakh body or spirit.

But, as it is fine, elemental or material eyes cannot see it. Summarily speaking, it was only the spirit, which had committed sins in the world and hence it is only the spirit that is being punished after death.

Now, it may be chastised either by getting it connected with the facsimile body or it may be getting punishment absolutely by itself, constantly. Of course, on the Day of Judgement, all will rise and gather only in this worldly and material body.

Quote

Barzakh is Veiled in this World

Some may think as to where such a vast world of Barzakh is situated? Our intellect is unable to comprehend it. We will only say that the realm of Barzakh is in a veil and hence invisible to the physical eye. There are many narrations to make us understand this matter.

For example: This world of ours, along with its vast lands and skies, if compared with the realm of Barzakh, is like a tiny spot in an endlessly big forest. So long as a man lives in this world, he is like a silk worm or like an unborn child in womb. When he dies, he becomes free. Of course, he remains in this very world and does not go away and out of it, but now he has no limitations like time and space, because these things are limited only to this material world.

The Realm of Barzakh Encircles this World

If it is said to a baby in the womb that there is a very vast world beyond your present station, which is nothing in comparison with that one, he would be unable to comprehend it. Similarly, we, who are able now to see only through the physical eyes, cannot comprehend the other world, which is hidden from our eyes.

Almighty God says in the Holy Quran:

“So no soul knows what is hidden for them of that which will refresh the eyes; a reward for what they did.” (Surah Sajdah 32:17)

That is, nobody knows what things have been provided for him or her that can cool their eyes. This is the reward of the good deeds done by them in the world. We only know that as the Trust Informer (Prophet) has informed us of it and we testify to it. The realm of Barzakh has encircled and covered our present physical and material world just as this world has covered the world in womb. No other example is more explanatory.

Souls are Friendly with One Another and Please One Another

Asbagh bin Nubatah says, “I saw my master, Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) standing at the gate of Kufa looking towards the desert. It appeared that he was busy talking with someone, but there was no one. I also stood up. After a long time, I felt tired. So I sat down and got up again after a while.

But Ali ((عليه السلام).) was still busy talking. I went a step forward and asked, ‘O Amirul Momineen! Who is it you are talking to?’ He said, ‘This talk of mine was to please the spirits of the faithful.’ I asked, ‘Which faithful? No one from those who have passed away is present here.’ He said, ‘Yes, they are present here.’ I again asked, ‘Are they present here physically or in spirit?’

He replied, ‘Their spirits. Had you been able to do so, you could have seen how they gather at a place, talk mutually and please one another remembering the gifts and bounties of God.’”

The Valley of Peace is the Station of the Spirits of the Faithful

It is mentioned in other traditions that any faithful person who passes away either from the east or the west of this world finds that his spirit or soul which remains in his facsimile body has its place in the Valley of Peace in the neighborhood of Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).).

In other words, Najaf Ashraf is an expression of the higher world. Likewise, for unbelievers their abode is Wadi Barhut situated in Yemen in a fearful and barren land where even birds do not venture. This is a place for the appearance of mean souls.

https://al-islam.org/barzakh-purgatory-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/barzakh

[samy]

from the viewpoints of the great schisms, it does seem like the Shia are more like the eastern christians. They both said, no. For the christians, the nicene creed which was already agreed upon, I believe they all agreed to not change it. Then in 1054, the thing that cannot be changed was changed by the Western christians, that the Holy spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The East said no, refusing the addition, and the Son, turning orthodox, while the west turned Roman catholic.

With Islam, I believe what was already agreed upon and cannot be changed by all Muslims during the lifetime of our Nabi, peace and blessings be upon him and his noble family, was the succession after the Nabi. This for Muslims is a touchy one and I don't want to anger my sunni brothers. If it is true that the thing, succession, which was already agreed upon did Change after the Death of our Nabi, then the early Muslims who said No, would later on be known as the Shias, while those who changed the succession would be known as the Sunnis.

Anyways, this just me rambling because I do find it an interesting topic. I wish all my brothers and sisters good things, both Muslim and Christians.

Edited May 14 by samy

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/14/2025 at 6:03 AM, Vinni said:

To be fair, I can also relate to Buddhism, Sikhism, and Hinduism too to an extent. However, I'm afraid of falling back into my "Omnist" phase because it was a VERY confusing time for me. 

The slogan "My religion is humanity" seems at first glance to be a beautiful and humane statement; but upon closer inspection, it becomes clear that this concept, without a clear definition, can become a cover for denying theism and promoting moral relativism. This article examines this claim in detail and analytically.

My religion is humanity.

Study time: 4 Minute
According to the report of Rahyaftegan (a comprehensive database of missionaries and new Muslims) ; the claim that "my religion is humanity" without relying on a divine framework becomes a vague concept and sometimes contrary to real human values.

Humanity without a clear definition, an ambiguous and contradictory concept

The claim, " My religion is humanity ," seems like a beautiful and admirable statement on the surface; but when viewed analytically, we encounter a series of ambiguities and contradictions.

The most important drawback of this view is the lack of a precise and universal definition of the concept of "humanity". Each individual or school has its own interpretation of it. For example, some consider homosexuality to be a clear example of humanity, while others consider it to be behavior incompatible with human values. These differences are just examples of the conflicts that exist in the common understanding of "humanity".

Now we must ask, what is the purpose of human life? Is it simply to eat, sleep, and enjoy? If so, what is the difference between humans and animals? Religion gives meaning to human life by providing a purposeful system.

In divine teachings, the path of man's movement is planned in advance and then he is guided along this path; like a train that is placed on a track after it has been built. When the goal is to reach God and draw closer to Him, concepts such as morality and humanity also gain meaning and value.

Many of the behaviors that are recognized today as signs of humanity—such as kindness to animals, respect for nature, and respect for the rights of others—are all among the most basic commandments of the Islamic religion. Therefore, claiming innovation in presenting these principles is to ignore their deep religious background.

Redefining religious values in a new format

Anti-religious intellectuals present the principles and values of divine religions in a new guise under titles such as “ethics,” “philanthropy,” or “humanity.” These individuals often speak of choosing a new religion called “humanity” by abandoning divine religions, especially Islam. But when we ask them about the characteristics and principles of this religion, we receive general and vague answers: helping others, scientific research, peacemaking, respect for the beliefs of others, and the like.

Is the self-proclaimed religion of "humanity" really based solely on these principles? Here, further reflection is needed. First, almost all of these principles are comprehensively and precisely stated in the religion of Islam.

Second, the definition of these principles from a secular and human-centered perspective is often accompanied by contradictions and taste.

On the other hand, there is a fundamental distinction between two types of "humanity":

the first type is the humanity that is opposed to "animality"; the same as the human being who has reason and morality and goes beyond animal instincts.

The second type, however, is the humanity that is defined as opposed to "theism"; meaning that the centrality of man replaces the worship of God. In the humanist's view, the creator and lawgiver are set aside and each individual becomes the authority for deciding what is good and what is bad.

Islam is, in fact, the revival of the first type of humanity; the humanity that values reason, nature, and morality and crosses the line of animalism. But what is promoted today under the title of "the religion of humanity" is often nothing more than an attractive cover for anthropocentrism and the denial of God.

Boundless anthropocentrism, deviation from reason and morality

To better understand what the religion of humanity really is, we can examine some of its practical consequences. In the eyes of its followers, there are no limits to human behavior; the only criterion is individual desire. Consider a few examples of the implicit beliefs of such a view:

1. There is no problem if a person marries his dog, mobile phone, snake or frog.
2. There is no problem if a person has sex with his in-laws and both are satisfied.
3. If a male teacher assaults his student, it is permissible, provided that no harm is caused.
4. Eating dog meat, crocodile or even blood is free and is up to the individual.
5. Drinking wine, gambling or worshipping Satan is free, as long as it does not harm others.
6. Propagating any belief within the framework of atheism is completely free.
7. Insulting the beliefs of theists is free, but opposing humanism is prohibited.
8. Two men marrying each other is considered natural.
9. Using women as a tool in advertising goods is free and acceptable.
10. A tyrannical ruler can massacre millions of people and die without punishment; because there is no resurrection.
11. Unlimited illicit relations are permitted, but polygamy is condemned.

Can such behaviors be called humanity or should they be considered new manifestations of animality? Isn't man a being with reason, logic, and nature? How is it possible for someone with such characteristics to commit such acts and justify them under the guise of "humanity"?

Humanity or Islamism?

Authentic humanity finds meaning in the light of theology.

The important point is that criticizing the above behaviors does not mean denying the humanity of individuals, but rather it means denying actions that contradict human dignity.

The Quran also states: "Those who knowingly turn away from divine guidance are like cattle, but more astray." This analogy refers to behavioral characteristics, not to the negation of man's inherent humanity.

What is being promoted today under the name of "humanity" is sometimes a tool to confront monotheism and divine law. It is a beautiful word, but devoid of content, which in practice can become a platform for the spread of unrestrainedness, taste-centeredness, and the negation of innate and divine values.

While all the values that are introduced as indicators of humanity - such as justice, altruism, respect, kindness, loyalty - all exist in the religion of Islam; but with a clear, rational system based on revelation.

Therefore, if someone says, "My religion is humanity," we should ask him: What kind of humanity? If what is meant is rational and moral humanity as opposed to animalism, this humanity not only exists in Islam, but is also elevated.

But if what is meant is anthropocentrism as opposed to god-worship, this is no longer humanity; it is anthropocentrism. And it is better not to use the word "humanity" for it in order to deceive the audience.

Source:Howzah News

https://rahyafteha.ir/137971/شبهه-دین-من-انسانیت-است/

 

Edited May 15 by Ashvazdanghe

[ServantOfMahdi]

Salam. Might be of some help sister.

https://youtu.be/E5VlyYrzvfY?si=XUWTGh-IRR0qNb1x

[Vinni]

On 5/13/2025 at 10:31 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salafi philosophy has been driven from distorted Judaism

I mean, by that logic, isn't all Christianity and Islam originated from Judaism? As much as I disagree with Salafism, this is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. 

[Abu Nur]

11 hours ago, Vinni said:

I mean, by that logic, isn't all Christianity and Islam originated from Judaism? As much as I disagree with Salafism, this is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. 

Islam is closest to the teachings and beliefs of Ibrahim (عليه السلام). If Christianity were closest to Judaism, then you will see many beliefs and acts similar, but majority of Christians don't follow that. Majority of Christians follow the teaching of Paul mixed with Jesus teaching. Majority of Jews don't follow Old Testemant, but they follow the interpretations of their Scholars, Talmud mixed with Prophets teachings.

[Guest Kareema]

On 5/14/2025 at 8:07 PM, samy said:

from the viewpoints of the great schisms, it does seem like the Shia are more like the eastern christians. They both said, no. For the christians, the nicene creed which was already agreed upon, I believe they all agreed to not change it. Then in 1054, the thing that cannot be changed was changed by the Western christians, that the Holy spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The East said no, refusing the addition, and the Son, turning orthodox, while the west turned Roman catholic.

With Islam, I believe what was already agreed upon and cannot be changed by all Muslims during the lifetime of our Nabi, peace and blessings be upon him and his noble family, was the succession after the Nabi. This for Muslims is a touchy one and I don't want to anger my sunni brothers. If it is true that the thing, succession, which was already agreed upon did Change after the Death of our Nabi, then the early Muslims who said No, would later on be known as the Shias, while those who changed the succession would be known as the Sunnis.

Anyways, this just me rambling because I do find it an interesting topic. I wish all my brothers and sisters good things, both Muslim and Christians.

I disagree. If you mean by early Muslims the companions of the prophet non of them ever said Ali was chosen by Allah and refused to give submit to abubkaer Omar and Othman. It’s unheard of. If you have any evidence please share! Shias act like their religion is pure and unchanged despite everything they say and do is layer additionearky Muslims never practised or even heard of like the issue is imama the ahlulbayt never claimed to be divinely chosen imams and acted as such on the contrary the imams of Shia in Shia books constantly praised the sahaba and cursed the Shia who were then the people of kuffa. Eg narrations from sadiq etc. shia books are so clear the imams never practised shiasm in public. Your books admit the imams showed their religion ti be that of the Muslims of their time they never associated with the heretics ie the shia. Shias justify this by saying the imams pretended to be Sunni outwardly while they practised shias in their private. Only a mindless person can believe such a thing. 

[samy]

On 5/29/2025 at 1:49 PM, Guest Kareema said:

I disagree. If you mean by early Muslims the companions of the prophet non of them ever said Ali was chosen by Allah and refused to give submit to abubkaer Omar and Othman. It’s unheard of. If you have any evidence please share! Shias act like their religion is pure and unchanged despite everything they say and do is layer additionearky Muslims never practised or even heard of like the issue is imama the ahlulbayt never claimed to be divinely chosen imams and acted as such on the contrary the imams of Shia in Shia books constantly praised the sahaba and cursed the Shia who were then the people of kuffa. Eg narrations from sadiq etc. shia books are so clear the imams never practised shiasm in public. Your books admit the imams showed their religion ti be that of the Muslims of their time they never associated with the heretics ie the shia. Shias justify this by saying the imams pretended to be Sunni outwardly while they practised shias in their private. Only a mindless person can believe such a thing. 

I'm sorry, you did not understand me. I wasn't clear enough by saying the early Muslims that said No to something big. I am talking about Imam Hussein, peace and blessings be upon him and his noble followers, who stood up against the tyrant of the time in the desert of Karbala. This act of saying No to the one who had power in the ummah of Islam caused him to be tried and tested like no other. He was the Muslim, grandson of our Nabi, peace and blessings be upon him and his noble progeny, was killed along with his followers in a most brutal way by a people who also called themselves Muslims and followers of our Nabi for refusing to submit to falsehood. This great act of saying No along with the price they all payed in blood and sacrifice, is the great schism in Islam. Split the Ummah so that it may never recover. The people who said No to falsehood, both Muslims and Christians have them in common. They are the true righteous ones.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/29/2025 at 9:19 PM, Guest Kareema said:

Eg narrations from sadiq etc. shia books are so clear the imams never practised shiasm in public. Your books admit the imams showed their religion ti be that of the Muslims of their time they never associated with the heretics ie the shia. Shias justify this by saying the imams pretended to be Sunni outwardly while they practised shias in their private. Only a mindless person can believe such a thing. 

Salam respectfully this is just your baseless conclusion from Wahabi propaganda which in opposition of tou your nonsense in  narrations from sadiq etc. shia books are so clear the imams have practiced Shia practices but on the other hand they have practiced Taqiyya in front of enemies while they always have practiced Shia practices likewise praying hands down in any situation also they have mourned for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) even ordered Shia Muslims do it  & etc & follow them in every practice but on the other hand they have opposed Qulat & their open cursing & their other practices which have been against Shia Islam . which calling Shias as heretics is just Wahabi baseless accusation ; which according to Shia muslims Shia Imams have practices original teachings of prophet Muhammad (pbu) against innovations & deviations of so called Sunnis which it's you are who are following any innovation & deviation  likewise a mindless person .

On 5/29/2025 at 9:19 PM, Guest Kareema said:

I disagree. If you mean by early Muslims the companions of the prophet non of them ever said Ali was chosen by Allah and refused to give submit to abubkaer Omar and Othman. It’s unheard of.

Yeah it has been unheard by Wahabis which there is many evidences even in so called Sunni Sahih sources which all companions have accepted that amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) have been chosen by Allah as successor of prophet Muhammad (pbu) but some of them likewise Abubakr & Umar & Uthman   have negated or opposed c;ear order of Allah & prophet Muhammad (pbu).

On 5/29/2025 at 9:19 PM, Guest Kareema said:

If you have any evidence please share! Shias act like their religion is pure and unchanged despite everything they say and do is layer additionearky Muslims never practised or even heard of like the issue is imama the ahlulbayt never claimed to be divinely chosen imams

There is countless evidence about that infallible Shia Imams have been divinely chosen Imams which you could easily found it in many debate threads here in SC & sites likewise https://al-islam.org which we have not claimed that all of our practices are pure unchanged despite everything but on the other hand we always have help & observation of infallible divine Imams which is now Imam mahdi (aj) who observes & fixes our mistakes & errors  by will of Allah as last divinely appointed infallible Imam through his general deputies who are Marjas of Shias .

The Divinely Chosen One

فَدَنَا الحُسَينُ ( عليه السَّلام ) نحوَ الكِساءِ وَ قالَ : أَلسَّلامُ عَلَيكَ يا جَدَّاهُ يا مَنِ أختارَهُ اللهُ

 

Al-Husain then approached towards the cloak and said, "Peace be upon you, O grandfather! Peace be upon you, O he whom Allah has chosen!

https://al-islam.org/brief-commentary-hadeeth-al-kisaa-tradition-cloak-jerrmein-abu-shahba/divinely-chosen-one

 

The Divine Leadership - Imamah

Belief In Divinely Appointed Leader

Quote

(4) The Qur'an declared that the chain would continue after the prophet in the same chosen and purified members of his house, and they shall inherit whatever God has gifted to Aali Ibrahim. The Prophet declared in unequivocal terms:

مَنْ مَاتَ وَلَمْ يَعْرِفْ إِمَامَ زَمَانِهِ مَاتَ مِينَةَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ

“Whoever dies without knowing the imam of his time, his death will be paganic death (Jahilyyah)”1

Sunni Sources: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V. 28, P. 88; Saheeh Muslim, V. 3, P. 1478; Hilyatul Awliyaa' by al-Asbahani, V.3, P. 244; Kitab Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi 'Aasim, V.2, P.503; Al-Sunan Al-Khubra by al-Bayhaqi, V.8, P. 270; Saheeh ibn Hibbaan, V.10, P.434; Sunan Abi Dawood, V.3, P.425; Al-Mo'jam Al-Kabeer by al-Tabaraani, V.19, P.334 and many others.
Shi’i Sources: Kitab Al-Kafi by al-Kulaini 2; 21; Kamaal Al-Deen by Al-Sadouq; 2;409; Kifayat Al-Athar by Al-Khazzaz 296, and others. [Note by Al-Islam.org].

https://al-islam.org/fundamentals-islam-mirza-mahdi-pooya/divine-leadership-imamah

Divine Selection to Muhammad (SA)

As history narrates and as the Holy Qur’an depicts, the performance of Muhammad (SA) as a prophet stands as the greatest witness and proof which indicate the love and sincerity of Muhammad to the Message and its Sender. The fact of the matter is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen the best, most loved, and most sincere person to Him to convey His Message. And He the Almighty knows best what's in the hearts. As He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in the Qur’an,

“Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him) [42:13].”

He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also says,

“Allah best knows where He places His message [6:124].”

https://al-islam.org/muhammad-and-his-god-revelation-bethat-hatem-abu-shahba/divine-selection-muhammad-sa

Mind and Knowledge

https://al-islam.org/life-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/mind-and-knowledge

 

 

 

 

On 5/29/2025 at 9:19 PM, Guest Kareema said:

In the contrary the imams of Shia in Shia books constantly praised the sahaba and cursed the Shia who were then the people of kuffa.

Shia Imas have praised loyal Sahabs likewise Salaman Farsi (Muhammadi) , Miqda & Abudhar & Ammr in Yasir & other Sahabas likewise them who have remained loyal to Shia Imams  which your nonsesne about cursing of people of Kufa about critizing a group of them by Imam Ali (as) for their betrayal which it has not been about loyal shias in Kufa which in similar fashion of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) which some of people of Kufa have betrayed Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) likeiwse  opportunissts & hypocrites  likewise  cursed Shabath Ibn Rib'i al- Tamimi , cursed Umar ibn Sa'd & Hajjar Ibn Abjar al-'Ijli and cursed Shamir Ibn Dhi al-Jawshan & etc  which they have not been from loyal Shia Muslism but on the other hand from loyalists to cursed Umayyads ; which based on typical Wahabi nonsense some ignorant people have considered it about Shia muslims .

The betrayal of the Kufans

Quote

Ibn Ziyad summoned Kathir Ibn Shihab and ordered him to go out among those of Madhhij who obeyed him and to go round Kufa and make the people desert Ibn Aqil; he should make them afraid of (the possibility of) war and threaten them with the punishment of the authorities. Then he ordered Muhammad Ibn al-Ashath to go out among those of Kinda and Hadramawt who obeyed him; he should raise a standard which would guarantee security to those people who came to him. He gave similar instructions to al-Qa'qa al-Dhuhli, Shabath Ibn Rib'i al- Tamimi, Hajjar Ibn Abjar al-'Ijli and Shamir Ibn Dhi al-Jawshan al- Amin. He kept the rest of the nobles of the people with him, not wishing to be without them because of the small number of people who were with him.

 

Quote

 Shabath Ibn Ribi began to make the people withdraw from their close adherence to Muslim for they made them afraid of the authorities so that a great number of their tribesmen and others gathered to them and they went to Ibn Ziyad through the house of the Romans. The tribesmen went in with them.

“May God make the governor prosperous,” said Kathir Ibn Shihab, “you have many of the nobles of the people with you, (as well as) your bodyguard, family and servants. Let us go out against them.”

Ubayd Allah refused but he gave Shabath Ibn Ribi a standard and he sent him out. The people with Ibn Aqil remained numerous until evening.

 

Quote

 

Their situation became strong. 'Ubayd Allah sent for the nobles and he assembled them. They (went up to the roof to) look down on the people. They offered additional (money) and kind treatment to those who would obey and they terrified the disobedient with (threats of) dispossession and (dire) punishment. They told them that the army from Syria was coming against them. Kathir Ibn Shihab spoke until the sun was about to set.

He said, “O people, stay with your families. Do not hurry into evil actions. Do not expose yourselves to death. These are the soldiers of the Commander of the faithful Yazid, who are approaching. The governor has given God a promise that if you persist in fighting him and do not go away by nightfall, he will deprive your children of their (right to a) state allotment of money fate') and he will scatter your soldiers in Syrian campaigns. He will make the healthy among you responsible for the sick and those present responsible for those who are absent until none of those rebellious people will remain who has not tasted the evil consequences of what their hands have earned.”

The (other) nobles spoke in a similar vein. After the people had heard what they had to say, they began to disperse. Women began to come to their sons and brothers (saying), “Go, the people will be enough (without) you.” Men were going to their sons and brothers and saying, “Tomorrow, the Syrians will come against you. What are you doing, causing war and evil? Come away.” Thus (a man) would be taken away or would leave.

They continued to disperse so that by the time evening came and Muslim Ibn Aq'il prayed the evening prayer, he had only thirty men with him in the mosque. When he saw that it was evening and he only had that group with him, he left the mosque and headed for the gates of Kinda. He reached the gates with only ten of them (left) with him. When he left the gate, there was no one with him to guide him. He looked around but could see no one to guide him along the road, to show him to his house and to give him personal support if an enemy appeared before him.

https://al-islam.org/tragedy-karbala/betrayal-kufans

Sayyidah Zainab bint Ali ((عليه السلام))’s sermon in Kufa

Abu Mansoor Tabarsi in his Ehtijaj relates, that the sermon of Sayyidah Zainab ((عليه السلام).), the daughter of Imam Ali bin Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).), in the midst of Kufans on that day was a suppression and reproach of them. Hizam bin Sateer Asadi relates, that when Imam Ali bin Husayn ((عليه السلام).) was brought from Karbala to Kufa in an ailing state, the women of Kufa started tearing off their collars and wailing aloud, while the men too accompanied them in lamenting. Imam Zainul Abedeen ((عليه السلام).), who was ailing, called out to them in a feeble (yet stern) voice,

https://al-islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-karbala-shaykh-abbas-qummi/entry-household-ahlul-bayt

Sermon Of Lady Zaynab Kubra (S.A.) In The Market Of Kufa

“Praise be to Allah and divine blessings be on my father Muhammad and his good and exemplary descendants.

O people of Kufa, O you who are deceitful and treacherous:1 Do you shed tears? May your tears never dry up and your loud lamentations never cease.2 You are like the woman that unravels to bits the thread which she has firmly spun. Your faith is nothing but deceit and betrayal.

Are there any among you but the immodest, disgraced, proud, spiteful, adulator, enemy and reviler? There are among you those who are as guileful as a beautiful plant growing in filth, or the silver on a grave. Certainly evil is that which your souls have sent before for you. Allah is displeased with you and in punishment shall you abide.

Quote

Are you crying and wailing? Indeed, by Allah. Do cry endlessly and laugh but little, for your deed was so horrendously disgraceful that you will never be able to atone for it. How can you wash away the crime of murdering the son of the Seal of the Prophets, the essence of the message, the lord of the youth of Paradise, the refuge of your nobles, the refuge for whom you resorted during affliction, the bright divine proof of yours, your master who defended the Prophet's tradition.

What an awful sin you did commit! Away with you, there will be no forgiveness for you. Certainly your efforts failed, your hands suffered loss and your bargain is brought to naught. You have made yourselves deserving of the wrath of Allah. Abasement and humiliation have been brought down upon you.

Woe to you! Do you know how you tore the liver of the Apostle of Allah? Whom of his womenfolk you exposed? What blood of his you shed? What honour of his you defamed?

Quote

Your deed is most certainly so dangerously ugly and foul, that it filled the earth and sky with its putridness. Are you surprised that it rained blood? Certainly the punishment of the Hereafter is infinitely more abasing, and you shall not be helped. Don’t make light of the delay of punishment in that it is not hastened by the fear of missing the taking of revenge. Most surely Allah is watching.”

Then she recited the following couplets:

O Kufians! What reply would you give at that time when the Holy Prophet (S) asks you, “What did you do? You were the last Ummah. Why did you treat my family, my progeny and my sanctity like this? Why did you hold some of them as captives while made others bathe in blood?

Was it the reward for my service as a messenger that you behaved like this with my relatives?

I fear that you do not become rightful to that chastisement and it befalls on you like the one revealed on the community of Aad.3 (Rizwani)

https://al-islam.org/maqtal-al-mutahhar-sufferings-prophets-descendants-murtadha-mutahhari/sermon-lady-zaynab-kubra-sa

Imam Ali bin Husayn ((عليه السلام).)’s remonstration amidst the people of Kufa and his reproach to them for their breach of trust and deception

Then Hizam bin Sateer says that Imam Ali Zainul Abedeen ((عليه السلام).) came forward facing the men and signaled them to remain silent. Then he sat down and praised and glorified Allah and sent salutations upon His Prophet, then said,

“O people! Those of you, who know me, know me, while those who do not know me I am Ali, the son of Husayn, who was beheaded without any fault or error on the banks of the Euphrates. I am the son of the one whose sanctity was violated and was robbed off the blessing of his life. His wealth was plundered and his women were captivated. I am the son of the one who was killed by a collective group, while this honor (Martyrdom) is sufficient for us.

O people! I tell you in the name of Allah! Do you not know that you had written a letter to my father inviting him? You deceived him while pledging and promising to aid him and took the oath of allegiance to him. And in return you fought against him and abandoned him? May you be ruined by that what you have brought forth and may your ideologies be ugly! How shall you face the Prophet of Allah (S) when he shall say to you: You killed my progeny and violated my sanctity, you are not from among my nation”.

The voice of wailing of men arose and they started telling one another, “You are ruined and you do not know”. Then Imam ((عليه السلام).) continued,

“May Allah’s Mercy be upon him who accepts my counsel and safeguards my recommendation in the way of Allah, the Prophet of Allah (S) and his Progeny, that we possess better following while having relation with the Prophet of Allah (S)”.

They told him, “O son of the Prophet of Allah! All of us are heedful ones, obedient and admirers of your sanctity. We shall not desert you nor turn away from you. Then command us, may your Lord have mercy upon you, we are along with you in times of conflict and peace. Then we shall seek revenge from the one who oppressed you or ourselves”. Hearing this Imam ((عليه السلام).) said,

“Alas! Alas! O deceivers loaded with fraud! There is a large obstacle between you and your futile caprice. You desire to fair with me similarly as you have faired with my fathers? No, never. By the Lord of the joyous Camels of the pilgrims! The deep wounds of the martyrdom of my father and my family have not yet healed. The wounds inflicted upon the breasts of the Prophet of Allah (S), my father and his sons have not yet been forgotten. The bones of my neck are broken due to the sorrow and its bitterness exists in between my throat and larynx. And the bones of the heart are suffocating me. My desire is that you should not be of those who benefit us nor of those who harm us”.

Then he said,

“No wonder that Husayn ((عليه السلام).) is killed, similar to his father, who was better and greater than him. O Kufans! Do not rejoice upon this affliction of ours which is a great affliction, who has been lying martyred on the bank of the Euphrates, may my life be his ransom, while the retribution for his murder shall be the fire of hell”.

https://al-islam.org/nafasul-mahmum-relating-heart-rending-tragedy-karbala-shaykh-abbas-qummi/entry-household-ahlul-bayt

 

Did The Shi'a Kill Imam Husayn (A)?

Quote

The people of Mecca were there. They were focusing on Hajj and had forgotten the fact that the governor of Yazid and his soldiers were ready to kill Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam and shed his blood by the Ka'ba. Where were the people of Mecca? Where were the people of Medina? Where were the companions of Rasul Allah, salla Allahu alayhi wa alih, who were still alive. Who are saying that we are trying to offer advice. Advice to Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam?

Nobody ever talks about that butchering of the thousands who were ready to fight alongside Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam. Many do not talk about the execution of Hani Ibn Orwa or those members of Madhaj who were deceived. Many do not talk about the likes of Abbas Al-Jadali, who was ready to be loyal to Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam. Maitham Al-Tammar who was in prison, Mukhtar Al-Thakafi who was in prison.

Many do not talk about the fact that the majority of the army of Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam, were people from Kufa. Therefore, those who want to say that the people of Kufa and the Shi'a of Kufa were the ones who let Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam down, or that the Shi'a were the responsible ones for the killing of Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam.

I find it very ironic that you care about those who let down an Imam. Jamal and Siffin was the best example of those who let down an Imam of their time. It is very ironic that you care about those who were not alongside a member of the Prophetic Household when you admire those who fought a member of the Prophetic Household at Jamal and at Siffin.

This myth can continue and it can be spread. But for us, we know very well there were many who were loyal to Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam, who gave their lives away to Imam Al-Husayn, alayhi as-salam. Unlike some of the members of Mecca and Medina who just said it is better for us not to get involved. Wa as-salamu alaykum, wa rahmatu Allah

https://al-islam.org/media/did-shia-kill-imam-husayn-0

 

 

Letters of the Kufans to Imam al-Husayn (a)

Quote

Among the writers of the letters, the names of some chiefs and famous figures of Shia such as Sulayman b. Surad al-Khuza'i, Habib b. Muzahir, and Rifa'a b. Shaddad can be seen.

Among them Habib b. Muzahir, has been martyred in Karbala but on the other hand Sulayman b. Surad al-Khuza'i has been criticized for his betrayal although he & Rifa'a b. Shaddad have uprised as Tawabin after martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) which Sulayman b. Surad al-Khuza'i  has been martyred among Tawabin army but remained infamous for his betrayal so then  Rifa'a b. Shaddad  althoufh his ups & downs has been martyred during uprising of Mukhar al Thaqafi although of his disagreements with Mukhar al Thaqafi . 

Fourth Letter

Shabath b. Rib'i, Hajjar b. Abjar, Yazid b. Harith b. Ruwaym, 'Urwa b. Qays, 'Amr b. Hajjaj al-Zubaydi and Muhammad b. 'Amr al-Taymi wrote a letter to the Imam (a) that,

"Gardens have become green and fruits are ripe now; so, come whenever you decide, since your soldiers are ready waiting to help you. The end."

Answer of Imam al-Husayn (a)

All of the messengers gathered before Imam al-Husayn (a) and the Imam read the letters and asked the messengers about the situation of the people. Then, he (a) wrote a letter and sent it with Hani b. Hani al-Sabi'i and Sa'id b. 'Abd Allah al-Hanafi who were the last messengers. The text of the letters was as below:

Quote

"In the Name of God the All-Compassionate, the Most Merciful From Husayn b. Ali to all the Muslims and believers But then, Hani and Sa'id came to me with your letters and they were your last messengers who came to me, and I found what you mentioned and most of you stressed that 'we do not have an imam; so, come to us; may God unite us over the guidance and truth through you.' Now, I send my brother, my cousin and a reliable person in my relatives to you. If he writes that the opinions of most of you and your wise and elder ones are in agreement with what your messengers inform about and I read in your letters, I will soon come to you by the will of God; for I swear by my soul that Imam (a) is not anyone but one who rules according to the Book of God, rises to justice, observes the religion of truth and commits himself to what God has said and ordered. The end."

 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Letters_of_the_Kufans_to_Imam_al-Husayn_(a)

Edited June 2 by Ashvazdanghe