Ibn Mahbub narrating form Abu Hamza at-Thumali - An Academic study

[In Gods Name]

Bismillah,

Salam.

One of the unique aspects of Shia compilation of Ahadith is that when you read a chain of narrators, often it is a narrator citing from the book of the person he is claiming to take from most of the time, who may have lent the book to him directly or he may have obtained this book through an intermediary source. 

For example, if Elon Musk narrates from Bill Gates, who Narrated from Steve Jobs who narrated from Winston Churchill, imagine if each individual lent the other their book of Ahadith which they copied from.

However, at times, the life-times did not overlap, or at times, individuals were infants when the other had passed way For example, Steve Jobs own lifespan did not overlap with Winston Churchill.

Sunnis use this as an attacking point for Shia efforts to preserve Hadith heritage from the Ahlulbayt, in that the books themselves could have been corrupted and infiltrated, and at times, individuals narrating from another individual could not possibly have met them, or were infants and could not have directly heard or taken from that book, and therefore there are intermediaries or unknown narrators in the chain who the individual did not cite.

This hidden intermediary , and the practice of not naming the intermediary is known as Tadlees, and the person who performs Tadlees is regarded as a Muddlis. Sometimes, reliable and truthful narrators of Ahadith often engaged in Tadlees, and this is present even in Sunni works, where the Muddaliseen as categorised into how often they performed it. Those who were frequent in Tadlees would often not have their traditions accepted unless they directly stated they heard it from the person they are citing.

In our own Shia works, there is one narrator who I have noticed has a number of Ahadith which are if I can respectfully phrase it, strange in content, which is not enough to discount them of course, but often he narrates from people he could not have met , or he was barely an infant during the time the life-times overlapped. ibn Mahbub is one such major Muhaddith, who had large works of Ahadith, but would often not name his intermediary source of the books of Hadith of earlier scholars or companions of the Imams.

This introduces unknown individuals who had procured those books. We do not know who these unknown , unnamed, individuals are, and whether they obtained a legitimate and non-infiltrated copy of such a book

I do not create this thread to cause doubt, but to do the opposite. Often Ahadith causes people to doubt, because it is graded authentic, whereas even major scholars of Hadith like Behboudi themselves do not agree with the gradings you find in Mirat al-Uqul.

I swear by Allah, my only intention is to pursue truth, and to accurately and fairly present what I deem to be truth and to not distort Shia scholarship, but to only present this to be taken to legitimate scholars for further clarification. Anything good of what I do is from Allah, the Almighty. Any evil is from myself and from the accursed Shaytaan.

 

What is the use of this?

If an Individual was not careful in who he took from, a lot of khurafaat can creep into the books attributed to compiling sayings from the Prophet and and from the Ahlulbayt

For example, here are some Ahadith from Ibn Mahbub:
 

مُحَمَّدٌ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ جَمِيلِ بْنِ صَالِحٍ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْأَرْضِ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هِيَ قَالَ هِيَ عَلَى حُوتٍ قُلْتُ فَالْحُوتُ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هُوَ قَالَ عَلَى الْمَاءِ قُلْتُ فَالْمَاءُ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هُوَ قَالَ عَلَى صَخْرَةٍ قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الصَّخْرَةُ قَالَ عَلَى قَرْنِ ثَوْرٍ أَمْلَسَ قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الثَّوْرُ قَالَ عَلَى الثَّرَى قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الثَّرَى فَقَالَ هَيْهَاتَ عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ ضَلَّ عِلْمُ الْعُلَمَاءِ .

55. Muhammad, from Ahmad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Saleh, from Aban Bin Tabligh has narrated the following: Abu Abdullah (asws) said, ‘I asked him (asws) about the earth, which thing does it rest upon? He (asws) said: ‘It is upon the whale’. I said, ‘So the whale, which thing does it rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the water’. I said, ‘So the water, upon which thing does is rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon a rock’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the rock rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the horns of a bull’ I said, ‘So upon which thing does the bull rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the mist’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the mist rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘This is how far knowledge of scholars is permitted (to reveal) and beyond this is straying’.

Al-Kāfi - Volume 8, The hadith of  ‘on what is the whale’, Hadith #1

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/55/1

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) عَنِ الْحَرِّ وَ الْبَرْدِ مِمَّا يَكُونَانِ فَقَالَ لِي يَا أَبَا أَيُّوبَ إِنَّ الْمِرِّيخَ كَوْكَبٌ حَارٌّ وَ زُحَلَ كَوْكَبٌ بَارِدٌ فَإِذَا بَدَأَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ انْحَطَّ زُحَلُ وَ ذَلِكَ فِي الرَّبِيعِ فَلَا يَزَالَانِ كَذَلِكَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ الْمِرِّيخُ دَرَجَةً انْحَطَّ زُحَلُ دَرَجَةً ثَلَاثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ حَتَّى يَنْتَهِيَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ وَ يَنْتَهِيَ زُحَلُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ فَيَجْلُوَ الْمِرِّيخُ فَلِذَلِكَ يَشْتَدُّ الْحَرُّ فَإِذَا كَانَ فِي آخِرِ الصَّيْفِ وَ أَوَّلِ الْخَرِيفِ بَدَأَ زُحَلُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ وَ بَدَأَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ فَلَا يَزَالَانِ كَذَلِكَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ زُحَلُ دَرَجَةً انْحَطَّ الْمِرِّيخُ دَرَجَةً حَتَّى يَنْتَهِيَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ وَ يَنْتَهِيَ زُحَلُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ فَيَجْلُوَ زُحَلُ وَ ذَلِكَ فِي أَوَّلِ الشِّتَاءِ وَ آخِرِ الْخَرِيفِ فَلِذَلِكَ يَشْتَدُّ الْبَرْدُ وَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ هَذَا هَبَطَ هَذَا وَ كُلَّمَا هَبَطَ هَذَا ارْتَفَعَ هَذَا فَإِذَا كَانَ فِي الصَّيْفِ يَوْمٌ بَارِدٌ فَالْفِعْلُ فِي ذَلِكَ لِلْقَمَرِ وَ إِذَا كَانَ فِي الشِّتَاءِ يَوْمٌ حَارٌّ فَالْفِعْلُ فِي ذَلِكَ لِلشَّمْسِ هَذَا تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ وَ أَنَا عَبْدُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ.

474. Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said: I asked Abu Abdullah (asws) about the heat and the cold, from what do they emanate?’ O Abu Ayyub! Mars is a hot planet and Saturn is a cold planet. So if Mars begins to rise, the Saturn goes lower, and that is in the spring. So they do not stop being like that. Every time Mars rises a level, Saturn falls for three months until the Mars ends up high and Saturn ends up in the decline. For the Mars that is its hottest time. So when it is at the end of the summer and the beginning of the autumn, Saturn begins to ascend and the Mars begins to descend. So these two do not stop being like that. Every time Saturn rises a level, Mars declines a level, and that is at the beginning of the winter and at the end of the summer. So that is its coldest time. Every time this one rises, this one comes down, and every time this one comes down, this one rises. So if there is a cold day in the summer, so that is the action of the Moon, and if there is a hot day in the winter, so that action is due to the Sun. “[36:38] that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing” and I (asws) am the servant of the Lord (azwj) of the Worlds’.

Al-Kāfi - Volume 8, Saturn is a cold planet, Hadith #1

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/474/1

Edited April 20 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

Part one: Ibn Mahbub narrating from Abu Hamzah at-Thumali:

Ibn Mahbub died born 149AH, and died 224AH:

Abu Hamzah at-Thumali on the other hand, who Ibn Mahbub narrates copiously from was born 82AH and died 150AH

Therefore it should be patently clear that Ibn Mahbub could not have directly heard from or taken from Abu Hamzah at-Thumali, but rather, the books Ibn Mahbub took from that contained the Ahadith of Abu Hamzah at-Thumali must have been from an intermediary source.

I need to again stress, Ibn Mahbub is a major Muhaddith, and his Ahadith span into the thousands. A hidden disconnection from him and those who he cites from but does not cite the hidden intermediaries brings about major concerns of who exactly these intermediaries were, and whether these middle-men obtained reliable copies, or if they themselves were not corrupted.

Indeed, very early giants in Shia Ahadith, such as Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa initially refused to narrate anything from Ibn Mahbub, because of their concern he was directly narrating from Abu Hamzah at-Thumali: https://eshia.ir/feqh/archive/text/javaheri/feqh/37/380819/

(قال الكشي عن نصْر بن الصباح: ما كان احمد بن حمد بن عيسى يروي عن ابن محبوب من اجل ان اصحابنا يتّهمون ابن محبوب في روايته عن ابي حمزة الثمالي ثم تاب ورجع عن هذا القول[1] )

Al Kashi reports that Ahmad b. Muhammad B. Isa refused to narrate anything from Ibn Mahbub, because he would narrate from Abu Hamzah at-Thumali. However, he later retracted his view, and the article itself goes onto justifying how this is a permissible but frowned upon Tadlees.

However, Sunnis themselves categorise those who performed Tadlees into those who did it frequently, and those who did it infrequently. In this case, if it can be proven Ibn Mahbub narrated copiously from narrators he did not meet or could have taken directly from, or if it was highly likely there was a middle person between him and the person he took from i.e. an intermediary who provided him the work of the late scholar or Muhaddith, this would introduce unknowns into a large percentage of such a narrators chain.

I argue that Ibn Mahbub, if he was reliable in himself, was a frequent Mudallis. This is just one of those examples, and I want to cite many more.

[In Gods Name]

Part two: Ibn Mahboub narrating directly from Malik b Attiya

Credit to brothers on this thread who did the research [ Brother Cake]:

"From an isnad point of view, this hadith cannot be proven to be sahih as it cannot be proven that Ibn Mahbub received this hadith directly from Malik bin Atiyya. In support of this:

Ibn Mahbub has narrated from Malik through his intermediary*, Ali bin Ri'ab. For example: Al-Kafi, volume 7, page 202:

 [1] عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ بَيْنَا أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فِي مَلَإٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ إِذْ أَتَاهُ رَجُلٌ فَقَال‏

Also, the only other trustworthy narrator who definitely heard from Malik, in the Four Books, is Ali bin al-Hakam (who seems to be Ibn Mahbub's senior).

And, he is not listed by anyone as being a companion of the 7th Imam and he has no narrations from the 7th Imam (at least in the Four Books), so it cannot be proven that he reached Imam al-Kadhim's [a] Imamate. Tusi lists Malik as a companion of Imams 4, 5, 6 and and we know that it is reported that Ibn Mahbub was born in 149AH. Therefore, Malik may have been an older companion of Imam as-Sadiq [a], who did not reach the Imamate of al-Kadhim [a] and hence Ibn Mahbub was unable to hear from him. And even if he reached the Imamate of the 7th Imam, he only reached, say, the first couple of years, as Zurara did (approximately)"

[In Gods Name]

Part three: Ibn Mahboub narrating from Muqaatil b Sulayman

Credit to Nader Zavri: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/01/hadeeth-is-daeef-weak-names-of-prophets.html

Ibn Mahboub allegedly narrates from Muqaatil b. Sulayman, who died in the year 150AH.

Ibn Mahboub was born in the year 150AH.

This adds to another narrator Ibn Mahboub could not have directly heard from him, yet does not disclose the intermediary between him and the narrator he is said to have heard from.

[In Gods Name]

My working theory:

The issue of Tadlees is further compounded in Shia Islam compared to Sunni Islam.

In Sunni Islam, a Muddalis may infrequently omit a third party or intermediary he heard a particular narration from.

However, in Shia Islam, a frequent Muddalis likely compiled their collections from works of Ahadith from previous scholars which they obtained without directly verifying those works themselves all the time, and the unknown middle man getting them the book may not have been of a veracity to obtain the reliable version of a particular famous book, at a time we know many books of the companions of the Imams would be interpolated.

Therefore unlike in Sunni Islam, where a narrator may well know who he is narrating a hadith from and omits them int he chain, a muhaddith like Ibn Mahbub might have used intermediaries that are servants, slaves, unknown individuals, who themselves may not have been reliable and may have obtained unreliable copies which were interpolated.

Having a reliable narrator between the Muhhadith and the companion of the Imam is more pressing in Shia Islam, because the intermediary has two roles:

1. Not be an interpolator himself, or a liar, or a fabricator

2. Reliably obtain such a book without being fooled by the Ghulaat spreading false copies of such a work

Why did Ibn Mahbub omit so many of his intermediaries? Were they of low rank and was he concerned his chain of narrators would be less illustrious with the Fuqaha? 

Either-way, I personally am very skeptical of any narration that emerges from the chain of narrators originating in any works compiled by Ibn Mahbub.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

5 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Bismillah,

Salam.

One of the unique aspects of Shia compilation of Ahadith is that when you read a chain of narrators, often it is a narrator citing from the book of the person he is claiming to take from most of the time, who may have lent the book to him directly or he may have obtained this book through an intermediary source. 

For example, if Elon Musk narrates from Bill Gates, who Narrated from Steve Jobs who narrated from Winston Churchill, imagine if each individual lent the other their book of Ahadith which they copied from.

However, at times, the life-times did not overlap, or at times, individuals were infants when the other had passed way For example, Steve Jobs own lifespan did not overlap with Winston Churchill.

Sunnis use this as an attacking point for Shia efforts to preserve Hadith heritage from the Ahlulbayt, in that the books themselves could have been corrupted and infiltrated, and at times, individuals narrating from another individual could not possibly have met them, or were infants and could not have directly heard or taken from that book, and therefore there are intermediaries or unknown narrators in the chain who the individual did not cite.

This hidden intermediary , and the practice of not naming the intermediary is known as Tadlees, and the person who performs Tadlees is regarded as a Muddlis. Sometimes, reliable and truthful narrators of Ahadith often engaged in Tadlees, and this is present even in Sunni works, where the Muddaliseen as categorised into how often they performed it. Those who were frequent in Tadlees would often not have their traditions accepted unless they directly stated they heard it from the person they are citing.

In our own Shia works, there is one narrator who I have noticed has a number of Ahadith which are if I can respectfully phrase it, strange in content, which is not enough to discount them of course, but often he narrates from people he could not have met , or he was barely an infant during the time the life-times overlapped. ibn Mahbub is one such major Muhaddith, who had large works of Ahadith, but would often not name his intermediary source of the books of Hadith of earlier scholars or companions of the Imams.

This introduces unknown individuals who had procured those books. We do not know who these unknown , unnamed, individuals are, and whether they obtained a legitimate and non-infiltrated copy of such a book

I do not create this thread to cause doubt, but to do the opposite. Often Ahadith causes people to doubt, because it is graded authentic, whereas even major scholars of Hadith like Behboudi themselves do not agree with the gradings you find in Mirat al-Uqul.

I swear by Allah, my only intention is to pursue truth, and to accurately and fairly present what I deem to be truth and to not distort Shia scholarship, but to only present this to be taken to legitimate scholars for further clarification. Anything good of what I do is from Allah, the Almighty. Any evil is from myself and from the accursed Shaytaan.

 

What is the use of this?

If an Individual was not careful in who he took from, a lot of khurafaat can creep into the books attributed to compiling sayings from the Prophet and and from the Ahlulbayt

For example, here are some Ahadith from Ibn Mahbub:
 

مُحَمَّدٌ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ جَمِيلِ بْنِ صَالِحٍ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْأَرْضِ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هِيَ قَالَ هِيَ عَلَى حُوتٍ قُلْتُ فَالْحُوتُ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هُوَ قَالَ عَلَى الْمَاءِ قُلْتُ فَالْمَاءُ عَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ هُوَ قَالَ عَلَى صَخْرَةٍ قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الصَّخْرَةُ قَالَ عَلَى قَرْنِ ثَوْرٍ أَمْلَسَ قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الثَّوْرُ قَالَ عَلَى الثَّرَى قُلْتُ فَعَلَى أَيِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ الثَّرَى فَقَالَ هَيْهَاتَ عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ ضَلَّ عِلْمُ الْعُلَمَاءِ .

55. Muhammad, from Ahmad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Saleh, from Aban Bin Tabligh has narrated the following: Abu Abdullah (asws) said, ‘I asked him (asws) about the earth, which thing does it rest upon? He (asws) said: ‘It is upon the whale’. I said, ‘So the whale, which thing does it rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the water’. I said, ‘So the water, upon which thing does is rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon a rock’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the rock rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the horns of a bull’ I said, ‘So upon which thing does the bull rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘Upon the mist’. I said, ‘So upon which thing does the mist rest upon?’ He (asws) said: ‘This is how far knowledge of scholars is permitted (to reveal) and beyond this is straying’.

Al-Kāfi - Volume 8, The hadith of  ‘on what is the whale’, Hadith #1

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/55/1

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ مَالِكِ بْنِ عَطِيَّةَ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) عَنِ الْحَرِّ وَ الْبَرْدِ مِمَّا يَكُونَانِ فَقَالَ لِي يَا أَبَا أَيُّوبَ إِنَّ الْمِرِّيخَ كَوْكَبٌ حَارٌّ وَ زُحَلَ كَوْكَبٌ بَارِدٌ فَإِذَا بَدَأَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ انْحَطَّ زُحَلُ وَ ذَلِكَ فِي الرَّبِيعِ فَلَا يَزَالَانِ كَذَلِكَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ الْمِرِّيخُ دَرَجَةً انْحَطَّ زُحَلُ دَرَجَةً ثَلَاثَةَ أَشْهُرٍ حَتَّى يَنْتَهِيَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ وَ يَنْتَهِيَ زُحَلُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ فَيَجْلُوَ الْمِرِّيخُ فَلِذَلِكَ يَشْتَدُّ الْحَرُّ فَإِذَا كَانَ فِي آخِرِ الصَّيْفِ وَ أَوَّلِ الْخَرِيفِ بَدَأَ زُحَلُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ وَ بَدَأَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ فَلَا يَزَالَانِ كَذَلِكَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ زُحَلُ دَرَجَةً انْحَطَّ الْمِرِّيخُ دَرَجَةً حَتَّى يَنْتَهِيَ الْمِرِّيخُ فِي الْهُبُوطِ وَ يَنْتَهِيَ زُحَلُ فِي الِارْتِفَاعِ فَيَجْلُوَ زُحَلُ وَ ذَلِكَ فِي أَوَّلِ الشِّتَاءِ وَ آخِرِ الْخَرِيفِ فَلِذَلِكَ يَشْتَدُّ الْبَرْدُ وَ كُلَّمَا ارْتَفَعَ هَذَا هَبَطَ هَذَا وَ كُلَّمَا هَبَطَ هَذَا ارْتَفَعَ هَذَا فَإِذَا كَانَ فِي الصَّيْفِ يَوْمٌ بَارِدٌ فَالْفِعْلُ فِي ذَلِكَ لِلْقَمَرِ وَ إِذَا كَانَ فِي الشِّتَاءِ يَوْمٌ حَارٌّ فَالْفِعْلُ فِي ذَلِكَ لِلشَّمْسِ هَذَا تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ وَ أَنَا عَبْدُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ.

474. Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Ibn Mahboub, from Malik Bin Atiyya, from Suleyman Bin Khalid who said: I asked Abu Abdullah (asws) about the heat and the cold, from what do they emanate?’ O Abu Ayyub! Mars is a hot planet and Saturn is a cold planet. So if Mars begins to rise, the Saturn goes lower, and that is in the spring. So they do not stop being like that. Every time Mars rises a level, Saturn falls for three months until the Mars ends up high and Saturn ends up in the decline. For the Mars that is its hottest time. So when it is at the end of the summer and the beginning of the autumn, Saturn begins to ascend and the Mars begins to descend. So these two do not stop being like that. Every time Saturn rises a level, Mars declines a level, and that is at the beginning of the winter and at the end of the summer. So that is its coldest time. Every time this one rises, this one comes down, and every time this one comes down, this one rises. So if there is a cold day in the summer, so that is the action of the Moon, and if there is a hot day in the winter, so that action is due to the Sun. “[36:38] that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing” and I (asws) am the servant of the Lord (azwj) of the Worlds’.

Al-Kāfi - Volume 8, Saturn is a cold planet, Hadith #1

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/474/1

Well, firstly no usuli Shia believes that every hadith is authentic. Having said that there can be Ahadith which are either mentioned by a liar or lacking intermediate sources but are based on truth, knowledge and common sense. 

The first hadith which you mentioned might appear to you strange but may not be strange for a astrologer because it might refer to astrological sign of constellation as whale and not an actual whale by which imam meant orbit of constellation in which earth swim around sun. 

The second hadith, perhaps, tells astrological effects of Mars and Jupiter because the then people were aware about astrology and not space science, they were interested as to what effects they have upon human nature and in that reference knew stars. Albeit, one can research further to see the alignment of those planets in summer and winter which may further reveal credibility of this hadith. And, that is perhaps work of an astrologer and astronomer. 

 

[In Gods Name]

22 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well, firstly no usuli Shia believes that every hadith is authentic. Having said that there can be Ahadith which are either mentioned by a liar or lacking intermediate sources but are based on truth, knowledge and common sense. 

The first hadith which you mentioned might appear to you strange but may not be strange for a astrologer because it might refer to astrological sign of constellation as whale and not an actual whale by which imam meant orbit of constellation in which earth swim around sun. 

The second hadith, perhaps, tells astrological effects of Mars and Jupiter because the then people were aware about astrology and not space science, they were interested as to what effects they have upon human nature and in that reference knew stars. Albeit, one can research further to see the alignment of those planets in summer and winter which may further reveal credibility of this hadith. And, that is perhaps work of an astrologer and astronomer. 

 

This is the kind of logical and theological gymnastics that anyone of any belief can use to defend anything.

I mean this in a good way brother, you've crystallised your beliefs and you're now defending them at all costs.

Rather than being objective and looking for truth.

I was in two minds whether to post this, because having a mindset like this might make one very reactive when given advice and even less open to truth.

But my responsibility is to clearly convey the reality as I see it.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

10 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

This is the kind of logical and theological gymnastics that anyone of any belief can use to defend anything.

I mean this in a good way brother, you've crystallised your beliefs and you're now defending them at all costs.

Rather than being objective and looking for truth.

I was in two minds whether to post this, because having a mindset like this might make one very reactive when given advice and even less open to truth.

But my responsibility is to clearly convey the reality as I see it.

Well bro, I am not performing any intellectual gymnastics to defend my belief at all costs rather inviting you to reason that not all Ahadith are to be thrown away because it lacks an intermediary source or conveyed by a liar or doubtful person or enemy of Ahlebait (عليه السلام). Even in the event of Karbala, there were many incidents of our Holy Imam's generosity that was passed down to us from the one who came to fight Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

The matter is that Hadith science is not as simple as one might take it. For ascertaining whether a hadith is authentic or not, it's Matn is also given importance. And, it might happen that a hadith seem impossible for one person but not for other because the other person lack the knowledge of the field that one person hold. 

Anyways, like you attacked me for being superstitious, I will assume your intentions are sincere.