Why didnt Imam Ali as fight back?

[Botak]

"Why dont Imam Ali as fight back against Abu Bakr and Omar if they took the leadership position from him?"

"If its because lack of follower what about Karbala where Imam Husayn as are outnumbered?"

"If its to not cause fitna then why did he fight in the first fitna?"

"Also where did it show that Imam Ali as have grievances against Abu Bakr and Omar? He even marry his daughter to one of them! Clearly this is shia coping"

These are common sunni arguments i found, and when i try looking up a response here, its just old threads with conflicting answers and stuff.

So whats the accepted answers now? And why?

 

[Eddie Mecca]

Reasonable questions that require an adequate response 

[Guest GuEst]

4 hours ago, Botak said:

"Why dont Imam Ali as fight back against Abu Bakr and Omar if they took the leadership position from him?"

Salam. Why Ali Did Not Take Up Arms Against The Caliphs? 

https://al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/why-ali-did-not-take-arms-against-caliphs

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

4 hours ago, Botak said:

"Why dont Imam Ali as fight back against Abu Bakr and Omar if they took the leadership position from him?"

 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had no army or enough supporters to fight back. if he did without proper support, He (عليه السلام), His family & all his supporters would've been killed hence no one would've been left who'd be on the path of truth. The duty of an Imam appointed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to Protect Allah's religion and be a guide. Not someone who's forced upon people.

4 hours ago, Botak said:

"If its because lack of follower what about Karbala where Imam Husayn as are outnumbered?"

 

Imam Hussayn (عليه السلام) was invited as a guest to Kufa. He never travelled with intention of war against an army of thousands. Proof is he travelled with his kids and women. No one goes to war with women and kids. He was forced to fight back when they kept killing his people and when there was no way out.

4 hours ago, Botak said:

"Also where did it show that Imam Ali as have grievances against Abu Bakr and Omar? He even marry his daughter to one of them! Clearly this is shia coping"

 

First part of this question can only be answered with narrations which I'll look for but i believe there are many. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) stayed out of touch after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed away didn't participate in any battles and him (عليه السلام) protesting for his rights is mentioned in Ehtejaj Al Tabrisi.

Marriage of Umme kulthum in light of shia narrations, does more damage to sunnis than it helps. Please read complete narrations. Aima (عليه السلام) saying they were forced to do so and that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) denied it and Umar threatened Bani hashim and said he'd make up false testimonies against Ali (عليه السلام) in court and cut off his hands as he was in power and Ibn Abbas came to Ali (عليه السلام) asking him to let him handle it and he did the marriage. Then shia narrations suggest Imam Ali (عليه السلام) asked a Jin to appear in Image of Umme Kulthum and no one knew except for him (عليه السلام). That she (jin) was married to umar. I to this date fail to see how it helps the sunnis.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

10 hours ago, Botak said:

"Why dont Imam Ali as fight back against Abu Bakr and Omar if they took the leadership position from him?"

 

Because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not want leadership for himself rather to guide the people since there were not enough people to support Imam Ali (عليه السلام), Imam Ali (عليه السلام) back down from wagging to save lives of true muslims who have to carry out future goals. And, choose to manifest the oppressor without being the caliph by pointing out to the mistakes of those who claimed to be so.

10 hours ago, Botak said:

"If its because lack of follower what about Karbala where Imam Husayn as are outnumbered?"

 

Even Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) did not want to fight the Yazeedi army and make them all deserving of hell when he knew that the very Kufians who wrote letters to him for reviving Islam, have taken side with Yazeed. So he put forwarded many proposals for peace but they did not accept Imam Hussain's peace proposals. They were bent on killing Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) while Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not face similar situation.

10 hours ago, Botak said:

"If its to not cause fitna then why did he fight in the first fitna?"

 

In the early years of selection of caliph, there were not enough people to wage Jihad against the oppressors so the logical way was to arrange for the safety of those through whom true message of Islam was to spread far and wide. While in the latter fitna, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had enough strength which bound him to crush the fitna itself through taking up arms against oppressors. 

10 hours ago, Botak said:

"Also where did it show that Imam Ali as have grievances against Abu Bakr and Omar? He even marry his daughter to one of them! Clearly this is shia coping"

 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not show his grievances at many places and even in the Khutba Shaqshaqiya where he condemn them in strict words. And, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not marry his daughter to Omar ibn al Khattab because daughter of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was born before 632 CE or 11th Hijri before the demise of Hazrat Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام), while the Umm-e-Kulsoom that married umar was took place after 13th or 14Hijra because at the death of Umar, she was still minor. 

11 hours ago, Botak said:

These are common sunni arguments i found, and when i try looking up a response here, its just old threads with conflicting answers and stuff.

 

I think there is plenty of information not only on Shia Chat but also on Youtube, if you search it, you will find many reasons that reject Sunni arguments.

 

[guest 2025]

Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) only went forward because he had a huge army of supporters. As as he found out they betrayed him, his intention was to return but the oppressors did not let him go anywhere unless he pledged allegiance. 

Same with Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). When he had an army, he fought. When he didn't, he stopped. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) didn't have an army of supporters at that point, and when he did later he ended up with the Khawarij.

 

The last one we're never going to agree with them. They say it happened, we say it didn't.

[Botak]

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had no army or enough supporters to fight back. if he did without proper support, He (عليه السلام), His family & all his supporters would've been killed

I thought the Imam should have more supporters back then? How powerful was Abu bakr and Omar to sway the people so they would kill Imam Ali as? Yes there is Imam Husayn as...  wait yeah, you are right, he could be killed. But I thought that the event of the Abu bakr election is really close to the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passing, and the camel war hasnt happened yet, so there should be alot of loyal companions, right?

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Imam Hussayn (عليه السلام) was invited as a guest to Kufa. He never travelled with intention of war against an army of thousands.

 

15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Even Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) did not want to fight the Yazeedi army and make them all deserving of hell

 

14 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

As as he found out they betrayed him, his intention was to return but the oppressors did not let him go anywhere unless he pledged allegiance. 

I thought the Imam sometime have knowledge of future event, shouldnt he knew then, what it would lead up to?

Also only writing this now that I kinda get how insane was karbala is, it never really clicks until i write it down, "killing the Prophet Grandson"

On another note sunnis like to respond that some of them hate Yazid and Muawiya, and the topic at hand is about Abu bakr and Omar, and I am not a Zaydi (they accept abu bakr and omar, right?)(they seems interesting) So moving on

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Marriage of Umme kulthum in light of shia narrations, does more damage to sunnis than it helps. Please read complete narrations. Aima (عليه السلام) saying they were forced to do so and that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) denied it and Umar threatened Bani hashim and said he'd make up false testimonies against Ali (عليه السلام) in court and cut off his hands as he was in power and Ibn Abbas came to Ali (عليه السلام) asking him to let him handle it and he did the marriage

So the marriage happened!

15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

And, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did not marry his daughter to Omar ibn al Khattab because daughter of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was born before 632 CE or 11th Hijri before the demise of Hazrat Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام), while the Umm-e-Kulsoom that married umar was took place after 13th or 14Hijra because at the death of Umar, she was still minor. 

14 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

The last one we're never going to agree with them. They say it happened, we say it didn't.

Or not...

Where does this conflicting pov come from?

 

[Eddie Mecca]

14 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Same with Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). When he had an army, he fought. When he didn't, he stopped.

I'm not too sure about this...it's possible Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would not have fought for his right even if he had a one million man army at his disposal...if Prophet Muhammad prophesized and instructed him not to lead a revolt during such-and-such time-period...Also, the Ja'fari madhab generally does not believe in forcefully subduing a population to its will...this is a philosophical concept that is deeply rooted in true Muhammadi Islam...the tyrants wholeheartedly believe in subjugation...but not the God-fearing people...Surah an-Nahl, ayah 93 - "Had Allah willed, He could have easily made you one community ˹of believers˺, but He leaves to stray whoever He wills and guides whoever He wills."

[Ashvazdanghe]

41 minutes ago, Botak said:

I thought the Imam sometime have knowledge of future event, shouldnt he knew then, what it would lead up to?

Also only writing this now that I kinda get how insane was karbala is, it never really clicks until i write it down, "killing the Prophet Grandson"

Salam although they sometime "have knowledge of future events" but they don't use it for their own benefit but on the other hand they follow divine order although of knowing that it will cause their trouble in future which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) knew that he will be martyred which his martyrdom has been prophesied even  by prophet Muhammad (pbu) which also it has been prophesied in previous divine books but Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has followed divine order for preserving Islam until end time which he has not used his knowledge of future events for his benefit. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Botak said:

Where does this conflicting pov come from?

There is also recorded history to verify whether some hadith are true or untrue. 

It is recorded that Umar ibn Al-khattab died in 23 Hijri, the Umm-e-Kulsoom who married in the year after 21 Hijri was minor as the hadith suggests that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refused his proposal due to minor age of child. While the Umm-e-Kulsoom bint Ali was 15 years old in the year 21 Hijri, thus, she was not minor as her birth year was 6th Hijra.. Thus, the minor Umm-e-Kulsoom that wedded Umar was not adult Umm-e-Kulsoom but another Umm-e-Kulsoom or a fabricated lie perhaps.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

I'm not too sure about this...it's possible Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would not have fought for his right even if he had a one million man army at his disposal...if Prophet Muhammad prophesized and instructed him not to lead a revolt during such-and-such time-period...Also, the Ja'fari madhab generally does not believe in forcefully subduing a population to its will...this is a philosophical concept that is deeply rooted in true Muhammadi Islam...the tyrants wholeheartedly believe in subjugation...but not the God-fearing people...Surah an-Nahl, ayah 93 - "Had Allah willed, He could have easily made you one community ˹of believers˺, but He leaves to stray whoever He wills and guides whoever He wills."

I beg to differ with you, if like Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), people would have called upon Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to wage Jihad, he would have to answer their call because on the judgement day, people could not claim that we called upon him but he did not answer. That is why when people called upon him to take up Khilafah, he answered their call so that people may not have completed hujjah upon him but he completed his hujjah upon them. But, unfortunately, there weren't sufficient people available.

[guest 2025]

On 3/25/2025 at 1:40 AM, Botak said:

I thought the Imam sometime have knowledge of future event, shouldnt he knew then, what it would lead up to?

Also only writing this now that I kinda get how insane was karbala is, it never really clicks until i write it down, "killing the Prophet Grandson"

On another note sunnis like to respond that some of them hate Yazid and Muawiya, and the topic at hand is about Abu bakr and Omar, and I am not a Zaydi (they accept abu bakr and omar, right?)(they seems interesting) So moving on

I think their knowledge was on a need-to-know basis. And their biggest mission wasn't to win the fight, it was to clarify right from wrong and promote the truth. The most extreme example of that is Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). By sacrificing his life, he successfully proved to the Ummah what kind of person Yazid l.a is. Now Yazid l.a is hated by both Shias and Sunnis. 

By the way, is it true that Indonesia is a hub of anti-Shias?

[Botak]

4 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

is it true that Indonesia is a hub of anti-Shias

Very, though not all

Some organization here are still friendly to us, although some of those organization are Muslim who have mixed alot with the local culture

I am not saying they are kafir but they are influenced by the folk culture with animalistic or hindu belief

The salafis of course dont like us but strangely there are some salafi who knows my real belief and is okay with it

[Botak]

4 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

it was to clarify right from wrong and promote the truth.

Wouldnt that be easier if Imam Ali as was a Caliph from the start?

[guest 2025]

On 3/27/2025 at 7:16 AM, Botak said:

Wouldnt that be easier if Imam Ali as was a Caliph from the start?

Even though Nabi Muhammad (عليه السلام) was the leader, the Ummah still fell and now the majority of Muslims are Sunni. So even if Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the Caliph from the start, eventually after his death things would get corrupted. So that's why the priority was to make the enemies of the Ahlulbayt seem so bad that even 1400 years later we have Shias who are firm on the aqeedah.

Even Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام), he will not only be the Caliph, but the leader of the earth. Yet shortly after his murder we will descend into depravity as if he was never there.

[In Gods Name]

On 3/23/2025 at 9:53 PM, Botak said:

Also where did it show that Imam Ali as have grievances against Abu Bakr and Omar?

This is the thing, he did.

Umar b.al-Khattab regarding Saqifah/chaotic election of Abu Bakr: "`Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. "

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6830

Aisha narrated: "So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. ...`Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death)."

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4240

So what do we have? Imam Ali as opposed the election of Abu Bakr. Fatima as died angry with Abu Bakr, Imam Ali as did not inform Abu Bakr that fatima had even died, and buried her himself in secret, and for six whole months, during a tumultuous time for Abu Bakr during the Ridda wars, during a period when people were apostating and when Abu Bakr faced major challenges, he didn't even give his Bayah to him.

I honestly am sorry to my Sunni brothers and sisters, there is absolutely no way on this earth you can spin the above. You have got to admit there was a big disagreement, a major dispute, and Ali [as] for one reason or the other, not only opposed the caliphate of Abu Bakr, but for six whole months didn't even give his alliegance. His wife herself had a big dispute with Abu Bakr and died angry with him, as per the eye-witnesses of the time.

This isnt in some Rafidhi book like al-Kafi , where you could claim fabricators or Kufans made it all up and concocted Isnaads back to the Ahlulbayt, it's in Saheeh al-Bukhari itself.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/25/2025 at 10:40 AM, Botak said:

I thought the Imam should have more supporters back then? How powerful was Abu bakr and Omar to sway the people so they would kill Imam Ali as? Yes there is Imam Husayn as...  wait yeah, you are right, he could be killed. But I thought that the event of the Abu bakr election is really close to the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passing, and the camel war hasnt happened yet, so there should be alot of loyal companions, right?

hadiths say otherwise. How many companions stayed with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) passed away? 3 or 4. yes that's what our hadith say. Others came back later too but later.

On 3/25/2025 at 10:40 AM, Botak said:

So the marriage happened!

On 3/24/2025 at 7:01 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

marriage indeed happened. it's impossible to deny it in light of traditions.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/25/2025 at 10:40 AM, Botak said:

Or not...

Where does this conflicting pov come from?

Dates are never reliable and we can never be sure about exact dates and it's enough to discredit the calculations because when you're not certain they can't be relied upon especially if they go against authentic narrations. It probably comes from Sheikh Mufeed who isn't considered hadith expert sadly and he made a mistake regarding this matter.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/25/2025 at 10:40 AM, Botak said:

I thought the Imam sometime have knowledge of future event, shouldnt he knew then, what it would lead up to?

Just like Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) initially took Moses for 30 days and later on extended by 40 to test his Ummah.

Similarly, Ahlebait (عليه السلام) the choosen ones were told by Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) about Karbala, but it had to happen. It was a test for Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and especially people who failed badly and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) left no excuses for them.