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In the Name of God بسم الله

Stuck on Shiaism

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  • Basic Members
Posted

As Salamu Alaykum.

About me: I am of a sunni (palestinian) background and have spent my life believing in the Caliphate of Ali (عليه السلام). I have spent a long time seeking truth and i will humbly accept it. I have, more or less, seen a great percentage of the arguments for Shiaism. Here, i want to outline where i stand so far and the things which give me trouble:

Things i have no difficulty accepting:

- Ali had the right to be the first Caliph

- The enemies of Ahlul Bayt are despicable and should be condemned.

- Divine Rulings have to come from a divine source. Therefore, it makes sense that anyone receiving divine knowledge must be infallible.

Things i am struggling with:

- Imamate in general: - The most convincing evidence is the sunni hadith about twelve leaders. Still, this hadith could be seen as a self-fulfilling prophecy or explained differently, with some convincing points for the latter. All other evidence that reached me comes either from shia sources, which i haven't accepted yet, or feels far-fetched to me.

- The first three caliphs: What is it, precisely, that condemns the first three caliphs as enemies of Ahlulbayt? Even if it seems difficult to entertain, the sunni thought that this was resolved with Ali's final ascension as fourth caliph is not completely non-sensical. If Ali preferee keeping peace after all the mistreatment that happened during the previous reigns, should distancing ourselves from the first three be a central issue of Aqidah? (This is not talking about Muawiyah or Yazid, which, in fighting Ali, have proven their transgression beyond any doubt.

- Shia hadiths: If i come to accept Imamate, how will i know if what the shia say about the Imams is really from them? Many hadiths in the Shia books have been identified by scholars as faulty. The shia ahadith were mostly (if not all) compiled after the Occultation. Two more points on that:

     - Even if a hadiths Matn is not against the Quran , it could still be a fabrication and it will be hard to identify this falsehood.

     - I do understand i can still be a shia even if i am critical about many of the hadiths. But i have to see proof for matters of Aqidah that is not from Hadiths. I can't shake the feeling that something that is essential to by salvation would have to be found outside a hadith from after the Imam and the prophet ((عليه السلام))'s lives. Do i really have to trust the narrators of these Proofs to enter paradise?

 

Thank you all in advance for your help.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

- Imamate in general: - The most convincing evidence is the sunni hadith about twelve leaders. Still, this hadith could be seen as a self-fulfilling prophecy or explained differently, with some convincing points for the latter.

Salam thanks a million for searching to reach to truth .

This hadith has not fulfilled for Sunnis which some  people have tried to merge a bunch of cursed Umayyad caliphs which best of them has been Umar ibn AbdulAziz who has some reputation between Shias with a bunch of Abbasid caliphs to make a list of  twelve leaders which all created lists doesn't match with twelve qualified leaders  which all lists differ from each other while all 12 infallible Imams have all qualifications of being twelve leaders .

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

- The first three caliphs: What is it, precisely, that condemns the first three caliphs as enemies of Ahlulbayt? Even if it seems difficult to entertain, the sunni thought that this was resolved with Ali's final ascension as fourth caliph is not completely non-sensical.

Our condemnation about them is about opposing  clear will & order of divine  order of Allah & prophet Muhammad (pbu) & mistreatment of lady Fatima (sa) & usurping right of Amir al-Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been recognized as  fourth caliph when Abbasids fall out has been initiated so therefore they tried to gain support of Shias .

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

should distancing ourselves from the first three be a central issue of Aqidah?

It's not central issue of Aqidah while accepting divine Imamate of infallible Imam is central issue of Aqidah which when you accept Imamate so therefore you will distance yourself from anyone who opposed divine Imamate .

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

. The shia ahadith were mostly (if not all) compiled after the Occultation. 

It's not true because Shia hadiths have been preserved since era of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which Shia hadith books is compilation of preserved Shia hadiths when Shia scholars recognized that can spread preserved Shia hadiths without fear of destroying Hadiths by enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

Many hadiths in the Shia books have been identified by scholars as faulty

This as as the same for Sunni hadiths which many Sunni hadiths have been identified as authentic due to political support of Sunni leaders & fabrication in favor of Sunni leaders although  of being against the holy Quran while fault in shia hadiths maybe due to mistakes of writing in copying books due to copying by hand by writers who have not enough religious knowledge or destroying some hadiths by  enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). which caused defficiency of some hadiths which only a part of damaged hadiths have been preserved .

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

But i have to see proof for matters of Aqidah that is not from Hadiths.

You can find proof for matters of Aqidah from holy Quran likewise by searching in https://al-islam.org/ 

7 hours ago, WesternGalilee said:

Do i really have to trust the narrators of these Proofs to enter paradise?

No , it's not necessary to them to enter Paradise which you must find the truth to enter to Paradise. 

 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
  • Advanced Member
Posted

12 caliph hadith do not refer to 12 imams. We have authentic narrations in Shia books that they denied that they were imams.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

Salam alaykum

 

I hope you don't mind me responding from the Zaydi perspective.

We follow the learned ones from Hasanid and Husaynid lines in every generation, those who relied on the methodology of their forefathers.

They taught us that Guidance is strictly in the Qur'an, in a Prophetic Sunna that is widely agreed upon, or in a Rational proof. 

There is no taqlid or blind following in matters of Salvation, because Allah and the Prophet made the religion abundantly clear, and because each person is responsible for their own salvation. 

So we have inherited from the Progeny the advice to rely only on what is clear: the Qur'an, the agreed upon Sunna, and a decisive Rational proof. 

As for matters of the status of the Companions, their decision not to follow Imam 'Ali was a grievous error. But whether it was more than that depends on their heart's intentions, which Allah knows best.

We however treat them the way they were treated by Imam 'Ali according to agreed-upon historical evidence. We do not curse or abuse, but we criticise their errors, and get angry when Fatima is angry, but also recognise where they acted correctly. 

Finally, we do not accept the isolated report in Sunni books of 12 Caliphs hadith as authentic, and we know that Shi'a books only adopted this hadith when al-Hasan al-'Askari died without clear evidence of a son (which his brother Ja'far b. 'Ali also denied). 

When the Shi'a disputed over the Imamate after al-Husayn ع, it was Imam Zayd ع who first publicly proclaimed that Imamate in every generation belongs to the rida (most favoured candidate) of the Ahl al-Bayt, who rises against injustice. 

This has continued for us to this day. Because the Umma needs a clear rational Quranic leadership, and the learned mujahid descendants of the Prophet are best positioned for this. 

 

اللهم صل علی محمد وآل محمد 

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