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In the Name of God بسم الله

Advice to 12ers not to be a reason for Sunnis to stay away from Tashayyu'

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  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Salamun 'alaykum, 

my background is Sunni and I have to admit that there were a lot of things that I would hear or see from people, who regard themselves as Shi'a, that would make me not even consider Tashayyu' (Shi'ism) to be true and this despite always having huge respect and love for Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him). 

What made me change my mind is listening to the Shaykh Hasan bin Farhan al-Maliki and reading his articles. 

That's why I would like to give my Shi'a brothers, who are upon the Madhhab of al-Imamiyya / al-Ithna 'Ashariyya (considering that 12ers constitute the majority of Shi'a today) some advice in order not to end up being a reason for people to stay away from Tashayyu':

 

1. Commemorating the Istishhad (martyrdom) of Imam al-Hussayn (peace be upon him) and that of others from the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) in a manner that people understand the reason behind these tragic incidents and the lessons for us to learn from them.

A lot of Shi'a today unfortunately think of it as some sort of ritual, where you have to beat your self in a specific beat or crawl on the ground or do other weird actions and that's it. The outsider will only see these weird actions and not really understand what the matter actually is (like standing up against oppression). 

 

2. Highlighting the importance of depending on Allah ta'ala in all situations and that Tawassul through the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) and his pure Progeny is legistaled and not going overboard. 

While there is no doubt that asking Allah ta'ala through the Wasila of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) and his pure Progeny is legislated and has been acted upon by pretty much everyone prior to the emergence of the Najdi extremists (who relied upon the claims of the anthropomorphist Nasibi Ibn Taymiyya), this does not mean that one should call upon them in a manner that is only befitting for Allah ta'ala nor to make ones heart depend on Asbab and become heedless of our Creator jalla jalaluhu. 

 

3. Highlighting the importance of staying chaste and staying away from sexual immortality and not forgetting the wisdom behind rulings. 

Some Shi'a today will defend temporary marriage as if it's the most important thing in the religion, not knowing that even fellow Shi'a (like the Zaydiyya) may disallow it and forgetting that rulings have a wisdom behind them and that even a permissible thing may lead to sinfulness if taken out of its correct context of application and misused. Take polygamy as an example: If a person marries more than one woman and ends up being injust to one [or all] of them, then he will be sinful despite the contract itself being correct. The Shaykh Ahmad al-Waeli mentioned that Mut'a should only be done, if there is a necessity and he gave an example: A person travels to a land to study for a long time and enters into such type of marriage to protect himself from immorality. 

 

I mentioned the above three points, because these three directly come to the Sunni mind and are quite off-putting in that they lead to not even consider Tashayyu' as the correct view. 

Edited by StrangerInThisWorld
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Some advice regarding calling Sunnis towards Tashayyu':

 

1. Highlighting the importance of accepting the Wilaya and Imama of Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) due to the declaration of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) regarding him and due to his piety, knowledge, bravery and justice, that are all established for him with certainity, and the danger of neglecting his understanding of the religion. 

The important point here being: Following an understanding other than his lead to all kinds of problems. The Muslims till this day are having problems due to neglecting and in many cases being completely ignorant of his understanding. The reason why our countries are led by oppressors today is because we followed the understanding of the oppressive Bani Umayya (or at least did not oppose the ideas that they introduced into our religion), who clearly wanted exaltedness upon earth, and not that of Imam 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him), who believed in justice and supported the oppressed. We tried to act as if there is no difference between them and this while their mindset, actions and style of rule were completely different! 

 

2. Highlighting the fact that there were good and bad companions and those in between just like in the nations before us and that there were even hypocrites among them - as established by the Quran al-karım - and that not being aware of this has grave consequences, because one will not be able to understand the effect that this has on ones understanding of the religion. 

 

3. While doing the above one should rely on established informations, present proofs and not go overboard in criticism by relying on speculation. 

Relying on speculation leads to the actual proof not being taken serious. 

 

4. Highlighting that the science of Hadith contains a subjective component and that no Hadith book could therefore be completely authentic. Single narrations can therefore not be a source for certainity nor be used to establish major issues of creed. 

The above is important to note, because a lot of Sunni Islam depends on Ahadith declared as "authentic", which in reality had a political reason behind them and are not authentic in reality.

 

5. Further highlighting the above point by presenting some of the false Ahadith that are present in the Sahihayn and also mentioning, where in the chain the problem most likely lies. 

Take for example the "narration" that Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) tried to repeatedly commit suicide. The person, who made up this lie is al-Zuhri, who served under Bani Umayya. During the time of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) Abu Sufyan was the arch-enemy of Muslims and later on his progeny and relatives were arch-enemies of Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him) and the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) in general. So taking ones religion from people who served them is not a good idea due to their ulterior motives.

If one looks at the Ahadith that go through the men that directly or indirectly served them, then one will find that the "narrations" that islamophobes today use are the very "narrations" that go through these people. 

 

6. Highlighting that the leaders and scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) believed in divine simplicity and that they opposed the anthropomorphists and even those who established additional attributes, because this is what lead the Christians to the whole trinity idea. 

Here one should again show them that there are many Ahadith clearly taken from the Ahl al-Kitab and then claimed to be Prophetic Ahadith.

(Some Christians claim to believe in divine simplicity, but their claim can not be taken serious while they believe in trinity and while they use the very notion of additional attributes that some Muslim claim in an attempt to prove trinity.)

 

7. Showing that the leaders and scholars from among the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) did not believe in obedience towards oppressors and injust rulers. 

Here one could again show them the Umayyad origins of Ahadith that state otherwise. 

 

There are obviously also other points. 

 

Edited by StrangerInThisWorld
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Excellent points. Another one would be the unhealthy obsession with cursing and abusing, among some laymen

 

I think this is the effect of people like Yasir al-Habib and Amir al-Qurayshi on them. 

The problem is that the lay Sunni sees these two guys and ends up thinking that that's how all Shi'a are. 

 

Edited by StrangerInThisWorld
  • Advanced Member
Posted

One thing that really surprised me positively on shiachat:

Despite being Zaydi inclined and having some differing views in comparison with that of many brothers here, I was not attacked or banned or what is similar to that. 

On Sunni websites one gets easily attacked and banned and this the moment one disagrees even slightly. Guess that's one of the reasons why pretty much all their forums died out.

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
2 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The problem is that the lay Sunni sees these two guys and ends up thinking that that's how all Shi'a are. 

or sunnis who hate shias will only see these two because they don't want us to be united. Have you ever seen sayid sistani or sayid khamenei insulting sunnis or mocking them? They already know both of them are the most followed scholars in shia islam.

2 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

One thing that really surprised me positively on shiachat:

Despite being Zaydi inclined and having some differing views in comparison with that of many brothers here, I was not attacked or banned or what is similar to that. 

On Sunni websites one gets easily attacked and banned and this the moment one disagrees even slightly. Guess that's one of the reasons why pretty much all their forums died out.

 

Brother go to reddit and post in sunni subreddit, they will delete your post and might ban you if you post anything they dislike. 

  • Veteran Member
Posted
4 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

One thing that really surprised me positively on shiachat:

Despite being Zaydi inclined and having some differing views in comparison with that of many brothers here, I was not attacked or banned or what is similar to that. 

On Sunni websites one gets easily attacked and banned and this the moment one disagrees even slightly. Guess that's one of the reasons why pretty much all their forums died out.

 

I can second that 

Shia chat is definitely very tolerant of divergent viewpoints and don’t try to shut you up even if they completely disagree with you 

they do exhibit great ikhlaq 

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
10 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

I think this is the effect of people like Yasir al-Habib and Amir al-Qurayshi on them. 

The problem is that the lay Sunni sees these two guys and ends up thinking that that's how all Shi'a are. 

 

I know many Sunnis who became Shias because of Sheikh Yassir Al Habib, and many Shi’ites who left Shia Islam for Sunnism, because of certain famous politicians wearing clerical garbs. I had a Moroccan mate at University whose family became Shia because their Sunni beliefs were confronted head on by SYH, they i turn converted many neighbours. He told me when they heard from “certain famous Shia personalities”, that there is no difference between Sunnis and Shias, they deducted that there’s no point in becoming Shia since we are the minority. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) prolong the life of SYH and similar scholars. 

Your own thoughts and experiences definitely do not align with reality for others. 

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

(Duplicate post - please delete) 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth
Duplicate post
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

I know many Sunnis who became Shias because of Sheikh Yassir Al Habib, and many Shi’ites who left Shia Islam for Sunnism, because of certain famous politicians wearing clerical garbs. I had a Moroccan mate at University whose family became Shia because their Sunni beliefs were confronted head on by SYH, they i turn converted many neighbours. He told me when they heard from “certain famous Shia personalities”, that there is no difference between Sunnis and Shias, they deducted that there’s no point in becoming Shia since we are the minority. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) prolong the life of SYH and similar scholars. 

Your own thoughts and experiences definitely do not align with reality for others. 

Sorry, but I can't agree.

It reminds me of Salafis and their claim that people have entered into Islam due to their so called "Da'wa", while not realizing how at same time a much greater number of people will not even consider Islam to be true due to them. 

The same applies here: If a few persons became "Shi'a" due to YH, then a much greater number will never even consider Tashayyu' to be true and this also due to him. 

Then: Being confronted head on is to be presented with proofs and details without hiding anything or going to extremes. 

As for trying to fish for "sexual Ahadith" (another good reason why the Sahihayn are far away from being completely authentic or even mostly authentic) and speaking in a shameless manner (how else should one call it?), then this is far away from the manners of a true Muslim and not the approach of a learned man. 

As the brother AbdusSibtayn stated: This behavior is rooted in the Western culture of blasphemy. As such I don't want to have any connection to such behavior. 

Edited by StrangerInThisWorld
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Diaz said:

Brother go to reddit and post in sunni subreddit, they will delete your post and might ban you if you post anything they dislike. 

They inherited this behavior from Bani Umayya and you will see this behavior in their rulers in an even more extreme form. 

Then there is the issue of "not speaking with the innovators", thereby keeping their followers ignorant of other Madhahib among Muslims. 

The ironic thing is that the same people will then tell others about the golden age of Islam and about Muslim scientists of the past, while in many cases not knowing that most of these scientists were either inclined towards the Mu'tazila or the Shi'a or the Falasifa and usually not Sunni.

 

Edited by StrangerInThisWorld
  • Veteran Member
Posted
13 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

I know many Sunnis who became Shias because of Sheikh Yassir Al Habib, and many Shi’ites who left Shia Islam for Sunnism, because of certain famous politicians wearing clerical garbs. I had a Moroccan mate at University whose family became Shia because their Sunni beliefs were confronted head on by SYH, they i turn converted many neighbours. He told me when they heard from “certain famous Shia personalities”, that there is no difference between Sunnis and Shias, they deducted that there’s no point in becoming Shia since we are the minority. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) prolong the life of SYH and similar scholars. 

Your own thoughts and experiences definitely do not align with reality for others. 

What is your opinion on Hassan allahyari ?

I personally don’t know a lot about him but he’s popular here in US 

  • Advanced Member
Posted
On 1/13/2025 at 10:33 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

@StrangerInThisWorld very few Shias or Sunnis ( or people of any religion in general) think like you do

most people are just ready to oppress the weak and exploit the  disfranchised 

 

 

If the above is true, then these type of people have disobeyed their Lord, because He jalla jalaluhu states:

4:135
 يَٰأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّٰمِينَ بِٱلْقِسْطِ شُهَدَآءَ للَّهِ وَلَوْ عَلَىۤ أَنْفُسِكُمْ أَوِ ٱلْوَٰلِدَيْنِ وَٱلأَقْرَبِينَ إِن يَكُنْ غَنِيّاً أَوْ فَقِيراً فَٱللَّهُ أَوْلَىٰ بِهِمَا فَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ ٱلْهَوَىٰ أَن تَعْدِلُواْ وَإِن تَلْوُواْ أَوْ تُعْرِضُواْ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيراً ١٣٥

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allāh, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allāh is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allāh is ever, of what you do, Aware.

___

And also:

5:8
يَا أَيُّهَآ ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّامِينَ للَّهِ شُهَدَآءَ بِٱلْقِسْطِ وَلاَ يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شَنَآنُ قَوْمٍ عَلَىۤ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ ٱعْدِلُواْ هُوَ أَقْرَبُ لِلتَّقْوَىٰ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ ٨

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allāh, witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allāh; indeed, Allāh is [fully] Aware of what you do.

___

And:

26:183
وَلاَ تَبْخَسُواْ ٱلنَّاسَ أَشْيَآءَهُمْ وَلاَ تَعْثَوْاْ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ مُفْسِدِينَ ١٨٣

And do not deprive people of their due and do not commit abuse on earth, spreading corruption.

___

 

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
On 1/14/2025 at 1:08 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

What is your opinion on Hassan allahyari ?

I personally don’t know a lot about him but he’s popular here in US 

Salam , He is a deviated person in similar fashion of YH which he is spreading hatred & Fitnah in  Afghanistan & India & Pakistan between Farsi & Urdu speakers in simialr fashion of YH who s spreading hatred & Fitnah between Arab speakers . 

 

 

 

 

ch 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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