Question to Sunnis / Shia: What is the importance of Ahadith in Islam?

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Salamun 'alaykum, 

I have a question directed towards both Sunnis and Shia: What is the importance of Ahadith in the religion of Islam and did Allah ta'ala give us any guarantee regarding them? 

Note that the Jews and the Christians mixed the revelation from Allah ta'ala with narrations and biographical data, which led to the formation of the Bible as we know today. So them adding these things led to the distortion of the real message.

Similar to this happened when the scholars of Hadith and the Tadwin of Ahadith gained prominence, which led the Book of Allah ta'ala being [mis]interpreted in the light of these Ahadith even if it meant opposing the Book of Allah ta'ala and opposing what was established from the words of the Best of Creation (may endless peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family) with certainity. This means that despite the Quran remaining in its original form, many Muslims still managed to distort the real message and thereby fell into that which the nations before them also had fallen into. 

 

Some of the [wrong] ideas that entered the religion through Ahadith:

- The idea that [the claim of] belief is enough and that oppression, major crimes and sins will not affect the ultimate salvation / damnation of a human being

- The idea that oppressive rulers are still legitimate and that they need to be obeyed

- The idea of anthropomorphism 

- The idea of determinism 

 

Note that the above ideas were supported by the political leadership, because these ideas made it easier to control the population. So the scholars of Hadith were knowingly or unknowingly serving them. 

 

The above obviously doesn't mean that all Ahadith are wrong and that there is no benefit found in Ahadith at all. There are things mass-narrated by many people and through many chains such that it allows having certainity of it being stated by the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) in reality. Examples would be the Hadith of Ghadir, the Hadith of Manzila and the Hadith al-Thaqalayn, which should give you a good idea who understood the Book of Allah ta'ala the best and lived according to it. 

 

With the above in mind, why should our salvation or damnation be dependent on whether we trust Sahih al-Bukhari or Kitab al-Kafi?! Did Allah ta'ala oblige us to trust the single reports of random fallible narrators and take their claims as the religion of Allah ta'ala itself?! 

Edited December 21, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Something to consider:

There is a big and stark difference between the subjects mentioned in the Quran al-karım and that of most Ahadith. This alone should make you suspicious to which degree most Ahadith represent the real statements of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and the Ahl al-Bayt ('alayhim al-salam). 

What is interesting to note here is that a book like Nahj al-Balagha is much closer to the topics of the Quran al-karim and the original Islamic mindset that follows from it than most of what is found in the books of Hadith. 

Edited December 21, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

19 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

What is interesting to note here is that a book like Nahj al-Balagha is much closer to the topics of the Quran al-karim and the original Islamic mindset that follows from it than most of what is found in the books of Hadith. 

Salam , Lol  Nahj al-Balagha has been  summerized from books of Hadith which without referring it to both of books of Hadith & holy Quran it only will be  a good  book for learning elequence in speech which for example Dr. Tijani in an interview in "Iranian IRIB channel 3" has mentioned that he has learnt  Nahj al-Balagha in childhood in Tunisia from his sunni teacher but because he & his teacher  have not access to Shia hadith so then his teacher just taught  it to children in religious school just to empower their elequence in speech which it has no position in their jurisprudence or dailylife which unfortunately in similar fashion it has no  use between  Shia  Muslims although of having access to Shia hadiths  because majority of people see it as an isolated book  from Hadiths while it has been driven from collections of Shia hadiths  which according to Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) we must compare every hadith with holy Quran which there is similar narrataion between sunnis which it has been neglected by them . 

Quote

1. [1/-] al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from his father from al-Nadhr b. Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from Ayyub b. al-Hur who said: I heard Aba Abdillah  saying: everything is referred back to the Book and the Sunna, and every Hadith that does not agree with the Book of Allah then it is a worthless embellishment.

[-/1] الكافي: عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أبيه، عن النضر بن سويد، عن يحيى الحلبي، عن أيوب بن الحر قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام يقول: كل شئ مردود إلى الكتاب والسنة، وكل حديث لا يوافق كتاب الله فهو زخرف

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/9/2/9

Sunni viewpoint 

Quote

What is the status of the following Hadith?

اعرضوا حديثي على كتاب الله فإن وافقه فهو مني وأنا قلته‏

Translation

Compare my Hadith to the Book of Allah. If [my Hadith] concurs with the Quran then that Hadith is from me and I have said it

Answer

Imam Tabarani (rahimahullah) has recorded this Hadith with the words you have cited.

(Al Mu’jamul Kabir, Hadith: 1429)

 

‘Allamah Haythami has declared this chain very weak.

(Majma’uz Zawaid, vol. 1 pg. 170)

 

The Honourable Syrian Scholar, Shaykh ‘Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah (rahimahullah) states that although certain Muhaddithun have declared this Hadith unreliable, it has been reported through several chains which indicate that this Hadith does have some basis.

(Lamahat Min Tarikhis Sunnah, pg. 29/30. Also see Al Maqasidul Hasanah, Hadith: 59 and Shaykh Muhammad ‘Awwamah’s -hafizahullah- footnotes on Al Madkhal of Bayhaqi, vol. 1 pg. 132-134, Hadith: 235)

The Hadith is therefore, suitable.

https://hadithanswers.com/a-hadith-on-comparing-hadith-with-quran/

[StrangerInThisWorld]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , Lol  Nahj al-Balagha has been  summerized from books of Hadith 

Wa 'alaykum al-Salam, 

well, al-Sharif al-Radhi obviously used previous sources and didn't invent statements out of nowhere. For a better appreciation of Nahj al-Balagha knowledge regarding the biography of Amir al-Muminin (peace be upon him) is needed. That being said, some of it is not authentic like for example what is taken from the "narration" of Sayf bin 'Umar al-Tamimi. 

The point however here was another one: Most of Nahj al-Balagha is much nearer to the mindset that results from following the Quran al-karım than most of what is found in the books of Hadith. 

Just think about this: In the Ahadith you'll find all kinds of narrations regarding absolutely secondary issues, but when you try to find Ahadith regarding some issues explicitly mentioned in the Quran, then suddenly it will be difficult to even find a handful of Ahadith regarding the issue.

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

21 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Similar to this happened when the scholars of Hadith and the Tadwin of Ahadith gained prominence, which led the Book of Allah ta'ala being [mis]interpreted in the light of these Ahadith even if it meant opposing the Book of Allah ta'ala and opposing what was established from the words of the Best of Creation (may endless peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family) with certainity. This means that despite the Quran remaining in its original form, many Muslims still managed to distort the real message and thereby fell into that which the nations before them also had fallen into. 

Let me give an example:

There is a "report" found in the Sahihayn, which is ascribed to Abu Dharr (what a coincidence!):

I came to the Prophet and found him asleep under a white sheet. When I came back to him after he had awakened he said, “If anyone says there is no god but God and dies in that belief, he will enter paradise.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals, in spite of Abu Dharr.” When Abu Dharr told this he said, “Even if Abu Dharr’s pride is humbled.”

___

Now compare this with the statement of Allah ta'ala:

25:68
وَٱلَّذِينَ لاَ يَدْعُونَ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَـٰهًا آخَرَ وَلاَ يَقْتُلُونَ ٱلنَّفْسَ ٱلَّتِي حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَلاَ يَزْنُونَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذٰلِكَ يَلْقَ أَثَاماً ٦٨

And those who do not invoke with Allāh another deity or kill the soul which Allāh has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty.

25:69
يُضَاعَفْ لَهُ ٱلْعَذَابُ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيامَةِ وَيَخْلُدْ فِيهِ مُهَاناً ٦٩

Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated -

25:70
إِلاَّ مَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ عَمَلاً صَالِحاً فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ يُبَدِّلُ ٱللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِهِمْ حَسَنَاتٍ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً  ٧٠

Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allāh will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allāh Forgiving and Merciful.

___

 

Note how the Ayat clearly establish Khulud (!) in hellfire for the mentioned sins / crimes and the only exception is through Tawba, Iman and al-'Amal al-Salih, while the Hadith makes the statement of "La ilaha illa Allah" as enough for salvation. 

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Abu Nur]

11 - حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي الله عنه، قال: حدثنا محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي جميلة، عن جابر، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: أتاني جبرئيل بين الصفا والمروة، فقال: يا محمد طوبى لمن قال من أمتك: لا إله إلا الله وحده مخلصا.

11. Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Walid said: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Saffar on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn `Isa, on the authority of al-Hasan ibn Mahbub, on the authority of Abu Jamilah, on the authority of Jabir who said that Abu `Abdillah Ja’far said that The Messenger of Allah ﷺ said: ”Jibra’il came to me while I was in between al-Safa and al-Marwah and said: `O Muhammad! Blessed is any member of your Ummah who professes that `There is not god but Allah, Unique’ with sincerity.”

Sincerity person is the one who repent.

[Abu Nur]

Also:

14 - حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه، قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، عن أحمد بن محمد ابن عيسى، عن الحسين بن سيف، عن سليمان بن عمرو، قال: حدثني عمران بن أبي عطاء، قال: حدثني عطاء، عن ابن عباس، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم قال: ما من الكلام كلمة أحب إلى الله عز وجل لا إله إلا الله، وما من عبد يقول: لا إله إلا الله يمد بها صوته فيفرغ إلا تناثرت ذنوبه تحت قدميه كما يتناثر ورق الشجر تحتها .

14. `Ali ibn al-Husayn al-Qummi (my father) related us that Sa`d ibn `Abd Allah reported, on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn `Isa, on the authority of al-Husayn ibn Sayf, on the authority of Sulayman ibn `Amru said: `Imran ibn Abu `Ata’ said: `Ata’ related on the authority of Ibn `Abbas that the Prophet ﷺ said: There is no statement more loved to Allah, the Mighty and High, than `There is no god but Allah.’ There is not a single servant (of Allah) who pronounces these words but that his sins are dispersed under his feet like the leaves of a tree are scattered beneath it.

[Abu Nur]

I understand from the hadith that Saying "There is no god but Allah" sincerely is a repentance.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

25 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I understand from the hadith that Saying "There is no god but Allah" sincerely is a repentance.

This understanding is not problematic.

The problem however is when many people understand from the Hadith that it applies even to the one who commits oppression or major sins and crimes and then dies WITHOUT Tawba. And in this case this would be a clear example, where a Hadith is used in order to oppose something explicitly established from the Quran al-karim. 

29:2
أَحَسِبَ ٱلنَّاسُ أَن يُتْرَكُوۤاْ أَن يَقُولُوۤاْ آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لاَ يُفْتَنُونَ ٢

Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?

29:3
وَلَقَدْ فَتَنَّا ٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ فَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ ٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِينَ صَدَقُواْ وَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ ٱلْكَاذِبِينَ ٣

But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allāh will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.

29:4
أَمْ حَسِبَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّئَاتِ أَن يَسْبِقُونَا سَآءَ مَا يَحْكُمُونَ ٤

Or do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun [i.e., escape] Us? Evil is what they judge.

___

Edited December 22, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Let me give another Hadith as an example, which is used as a "proof" for the salvation of criminals and oppressors, who die without Tawba:

Anas narrated that the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:

"My intercession is for the people who committed the major sins in my Ummah."

___

Is the intercession of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) for criminals and oppressors as most of the scholars of Hadith want us to believe?! This seems like a motivation to commit major sins! 

 

Allah ta'ala says:

4:31
إِن تَجْتَنِبُواْ كَبَآئِرَ مَا تُنْهَوْنَ عَنْهُ نُكَفِّرْ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَـٰتِكُمْ وَنُدْخِلْكُمْ مُّدْخَلاً كَرِيماً ٣١

If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise].

___

Note how the promise to salvation is linked to avoidance of major sins. 

 

So what about the wrongdoers?:

40:18
وَأَنذِرْهُمْ يَوْمَ ٱلأَزِفَةِ إِذِ ٱلْقُلُوبُ لَدَى ٱلْحَنَاجِرِ كَاظِمِينَ مَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ حَمِيمٍ وَلاَ شَفِيعٍ يُطَاعُ ١٨

And warn them, [O Messenger of Allāh], of the Approaching Day, when hearts are at the throats, filled [with distress]. For the wrongdoers there will be no devoted friend and no intercessor [who is] obeyed.

___

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

There is a "report" found in the Sahihayn, which is ascribed to Abu Dharr (what a coincidence!):

I came to the Prophet and found him asleep under a white sheet. When I came back to him after he had awakened he said, “If anyone says there is no god but God and dies in that belief, he will enter paradise.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals.” I asked, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals?” He replied, “Even if he commits fornication and even if he steals, in spite of Abu Dharr.” When Abu Dharr told this he said, “Even if Abu Dharr’s pride is humbled.”

___

Now compare this with the statement of Allah ta'ala:

25:68
وَٱلَّذِينَ لاَ يَدْعُونَ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَـٰهًا آخَرَ وَلاَ يَقْتُلُونَ ٱلنَّفْسَ ٱلَّتِي حَرَّمَ ٱللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِٱلْحَقِّ وَلاَ يَزْنُونَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذٰلِكَ يَلْقَ أَثَاماً ٦٨

And those who do not invoke with Allāh another deity or kill the soul which Allāh has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty.

25:69
يُضَاعَفْ لَهُ ٱلْعَذَابُ يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيامَةِ وَيَخْلُدْ فِيهِ مُهَاناً ٦٩

Multiplied for him is the punishment on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein humiliated -

25:70
إِلاَّ مَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ عَمَلاً صَالِحاً فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ يُبَدِّلُ ٱللَّهُ سَيِّئَاتِهِمْ حَسَنَاتٍ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً  ٧٠

Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allāh will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allāh Forgiving and Merciful.

Salam at first Islam is not absolute black & white which it also covers gray areas based on Amr bayn al-amrayn   about people  who have mixed deeds from both of good & bad deeds which also it doesn't support proceeding  to commit minor and major sins which also intercession for big sinners is exclusive attribute of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in resurrection day  which he will do it due it due to being mercy for whole world(creation) although accepting or not accepting of it depends on will of Allah  ; as @Abu Nur has mentioned "There is no god but Allah" sincerely is a repentance." which anyone who says ""There is no god but Allah" will has hope of intercession if he/she regrets from committing sin so then tries to fix it which also according Hadith of golden chain  acceptance of "There is no god but Allah" by Allah is conditional which first main critical  condition of it is acceptance of Wilayah of infallible Imams by people which acceptance of Wilayah  means repentance due to regretting from doing bad deeds & trying for fixing it or according to holy Quran prevention of doing sins by Namaz/Salah which  according to Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) "their intercession doesn't reach to people who take Namaz/Salah lightly" 

Quote

Indeed the prayer restrains from indecent and wrongful conduct, and the remembrance of Allah is surely greater. And Allah knows whatever [deeds] you do. (45)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/29:45

11. Abu Dharr said:

"The Messenger of Allah (S) said: A man will be brought on the Day of Resurrection; and it will be said: "Show him his small sins; and keep back from him his big sins." Then it will be said to him: "You did so and so on such and such a day." And he will go on confessing, while apprehensive of his big sins. Then it will be said: "Give him a good deed in place of every bad deed." Then he will say: "I had done some which I do not see- (mentioned) here. "Abu Dharr said: 'And I saw the Messenger of Allah laughing until his teeth were shown." (Muslim)

12. As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

"When the Day of Resurrection comes, Allah Glorified and Sublime is He, shall spread His mercy until even Iblis will hope for His mercy." (Al-Amali, As-Saduq)

8. Al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) narrated from his father, through his forefathers, from the Prophet that he said:

"My intercession is for those of my Ummah who would have committed big sins; as for the doers of good, there shall be no difficulty for them." He was asked: "Oson of the Messenger of Allah! How can the intercession be for those who have committed big sins; while Allah says,

`and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves' (21:28);

and a committer of big sins cannot be approved?" He (عليه السلام) said: "No believer commits a sin but he regrets it and feels ashamed. And the Prophet has said:

Enough is regret as repentance, 'and also he has said: `Whoever is pleased by a good deed and displeased by a bad deed, he is a believer.' Therefore, if there is someone who does not feel remorse for a sin he has committed, he is not a believer, and intercession will not avail him, and he will be an unjust one. And Allah says: `The unjust shall have no true friend nor any intercessor who should be obeyed' (40:18)." It was said to him: "O son of the Messenger of Allah!

Quote

How is it that he who is not sorry for a sin he has committed, he does not remain a believer?" He said: 'Anyone who commits a big sin, knowing that he must be punished for it, will certainly feel remorse for what he has done. And as soon as he is sorry, he is repentant, eligible for intercession. But if he is not sorry, then he is persisting in it, and a persistent (sinner) is not forgiven; because he does not believe in the punishment of what he has done. Has he believed in that punishment he would have been sorry. And the Prophet has said: `No big sin abides with apologizing, and no small sin remains (small) with persistence.' And as for the words of Allah, "and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves, " it means that they do not intercede except for him whose religion He approves. Religion is an acknowledgement that good and bad deeds have to be recompensed. If one's religion were approved, one would feel remorse for the sins one would have committed, because he would know what their result would be on the (Day of) Resurrection." (At-Tawhid)

at the end it's a circular reasoning which first critical condition accepting "There is no god but Allah" & repentance & Salah/prayer/Namaz & ordering good & forbidding evil & etc is accepting Wilayah of infallible Imams so then who accepts it must approves it by all of these good  deeds & not committing sins or repenting after  committing sins.

https://www.al-islam.org/fatima-gracious-abu-muhammad-ordoni/lady-fatima-zahra-sa-last-day#intercession-qur’

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Amr_Bayn_al-Amrayn

Edited December 23, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 12/23/2024 at 8:33 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first Islam is not absolute black & white which it also covers gray areas based on Amr bayn al-amrayn   about people  who have mixed deeds from both of good & bad deeds which also it doesn't support proceeding  to commit minor and major sins which also intercession for big sinners is exclusive attribute of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in resurrection day  which he will do it due it due to being mercy for whole world(creation) although accepting or not accepting of it depends on will of Allah  ; as @Abu Nur has mentioned "There is no god but Allah" sincerely is a repentance." which anyone who says ""There is no god but Allah" will has hope of intercession if he/she regrets from committing sin so then tries to fix it which also according Hadith of golden chain  acceptance of "There is no god but Allah" by Allah is conditional which first main critical  condition of it is acceptance of Wilayah of infallible Imams by people which acceptance of Wilayah  means repentance due to regretting from doing bad deeds & trying for fixing it or according to holy Quran prevention of doing sins by Namaz/Salah which  according to Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) "their intercession doesn't reach to people who take Namaz/Salah lightly" 

11. Abu Dharr said:

"The Messenger of Allah (S) said: A man will be brought on the Day of Resurrection; and it will be said: "Show him his small sins; and keep back from him his big sins." Then it will be said to him: "You did so and so on such and such a day." And he will go on confessing, while apprehensive of his big sins. Then it will be said: "Give him a good deed in place of every bad deed." Then he will say: "I had done some which I do not see- (mentioned) here. "Abu Dharr said: 'And I saw the Messenger of Allah laughing until his teeth were shown." (Muslim)

12. As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said:

"When the Day of Resurrection comes, Allah Glorified and Sublime is He, shall spread His mercy until even Iblis will hope for His mercy." (Al-Amali, As-Saduq)

8. Al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) narrated from his father, through his forefathers, from the Prophet that he said:

"My intercession is for those of my Ummah who would have committed big sins; as for the doers of good, there shall be no difficulty for them." He was asked: "Oson of the Messenger of Allah! How can the intercession be for those who have committed big sins; while Allah says,

`and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves' (21:28);

and a committer of big sins cannot be approved?" He (عليه السلام) said: "No believer commits a sin but he regrets it and feels ashamed. And the Prophet has said:

Enough is regret as repentance, 'and also he has said: `Whoever is pleased by a good deed and displeased by a bad deed, he is a believer.' Therefore, if there is someone who does not feel remorse for a sin he has committed, he is not a believer, and intercession will not avail him, and he will be an unjust one. And Allah says: `The unjust shall have no true friend nor any intercessor who should be obeyed' (40:18)." It was said to him: "O son of the Messenger of Allah!

at the end it's a circular reasoning which first critical condition accepting "There is no god but Allah" & repentance & Salah/prayer/Namaz & ordering good & forbidding evil & etc is accepting Wilayah of infallible Imams so then who accepts it must approves it by all of these good  deeds & not committing sins or repenting after  committing sins.

https://www.al-islam.org/fatima-gracious-abu-muhammad-ordoni/lady-fatima-zahra-sa-last-day#intercession-qur’

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Amr_Bayn_al-Amrayn

The conditions mentioned in Surat al-Furqan for major sins to be forgiven are three:

- Tawba (repentance) 

- Iman (belief) 

- 'Amal salih (good deeds) 

The early scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) stressed the issue of al-Wa'd wal Wa'id (this is found in their own words), because it's connected to one of the divine attributes and that is trurthfulness. Whatever Allah ta'ala has informed us is true and will occur as He stated:

4:87
وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ حَدِيثاً ٨٧

And who is more truthful than Allāh in statement.

 ___

 

If He jalla jalaluhu has stated that the he will punish the disbelievers, the oppressors and the major sinners who die without Tawba, then this is going to happen without any doubt. 

In fact He jalla jalaluhu has even stated that a Tawba done right before death is of no benefit, so what about a person who dies with no Tawba at all? 

4:16
وَٱللَّذَانِ يَأْتِيَانِهَا مِنكُمْ فَآذُوهُمَا فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُواْ عَنْهُمَآ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً ١٦

And the two who commit it [i.e., unlawful sexual intercourse] among you - punish [i.e., dishonor] them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allāh is ever Accepting of Repentance and Merciful.

4:17
إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوۤءَ بِجَهَالَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُوْلَـٰئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً ١٧

The repentance accepted by Allāh is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon [after]. It is those to whom Allāh will turn in forgiveness, and Allāh is ever Knowing and Wise.

4:18
وَلَيْسَتِ ٱلتَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسَّيِّئَاتِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ ٱلْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّي تُبْتُ ٱلآنَ وَلاَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلِيماً ١٨

But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

___

[StrangerInThisWorld]

As for your statement that the statement of "La ilaha illa Allah" will only be accepted [and only lead to salvation] if the Wilaya of the infallible Imams is accepted:

Allah ta'ala has not mentioned such a condition in His Book and we can't add conditions from ourselves. 

If you say that you found this in narrations, then I ask you where Allah ta'ala obliged us to take single narrations reported by random fallible people as the religion of Allah itself? 

If something is established in transmission and in meaning, then yes it has to be accepted if one knows it and understood the proof, but otherwise there is no obligation.

You can say that it's the Ijtihad of a group of scholars (i.e. the belief in 12 infallible Imams), but this is not binding upon the whole Umma nor a necessary condition for salvation. 

 

So let's reconnect this with my question in the opening post: Why should our salvation be dependent on whether we trust Sahih al-Bukhari or Kitab al-Kafi?

There are for example some Sunnis who claim that it's Kufr to reject the Khilafa of the Shaykhayn and this due to the narrations that praise them. To them it is said: All these narrations are single reports, while the praise of Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him) is established by mass-transmission. In fact his Wilaya is established with certainity, while this can not be claimed for those who preceded him in Khilafa. 

Then we have Shi'a who claim that there is no salvation without believing in 12 infallible Imams. To them it is said: If this is due to the narrations that are found in Kitab al-Kafi, then these are reports by random fallible people similar to the reports found in al-Kutub al-Sitta of Sunnis. Add to this: There are so many contradictory reports - due to the claim of Taqiyya - such that no one can say with certainity which of these reports indeed represent the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) and which not. 

Add to this:  We have the words of other scholars of the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them), who did not see any difference in creed between themselves and between let's say Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq or Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (peace be upon them both) regarding issues like al-Tawhid, al-'Adl, al-Wa'd wal Wa'id, al-Amr bil Ma'ruf wal Nahi 'an al-Munkar and al-Imama. Why should we distrust these scholars and trust random contradictory narrations instead? 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Coming back to the issue of salvation / damnation:

5:69
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلصَّابِئُونَ وَٱلنَّصَارَىٰ مَنْ آمَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ ٦٩

Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allāh and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

___

Note how Iman in Allah ta'ala and the Last Day and good deeds are mentioned as a condition for salvation and how even other religions are included in that. 

Now one may argue that this only applies to the Christians / Jews / Sabeans before our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) and that today salvation is exclusive to those Muslims who fulfill the conditions mentioned in the Aya. The response would be: The one whom the correct measage has reached and who understood the message is obligated to accept it and is otherwise a disbeliever. But what if the correct message has not reached a person?:

17:15
مَّنِ ٱهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّىٰ نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً ١٥

Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.

___

This means that the one whom the correct message has not reached may still fall under the previous mentioned Aya and attain salvation, if he fulfills the mentioned conditions. 

If it's stated: But today everyone should have reached the correct message, then the answer is: Due to some of the wrong informations that are present in the narrations and in the heads of some Muslims, the real image of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) has been tarnished such that we can't say that the real message has reached everyone. 

 

In the Quran al-karım we find an indication that people with mistaken beliefs maybe forgiven, but with a condition:

5:116
وَإِذْ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يٰعِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ ٱتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـٰهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِيۤ أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ ٱلْغُيُوبِ  ١١٦

And [beware the Day] when Allāh will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allāh?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

5:117
مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَآ أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ ٱعْبُدُواْ ٱللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ ١١٧

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allāh, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

5:118
إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ ٱلْعَزِيزُ ٱلْحَكِيمُ ١١٨

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

5:119
قَالَ ٱللَّهُ هَـٰذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ ٱلصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ أَبَداً رَّضِيَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ ذٰلِكَ ٱلْفَوْزُ ٱلْعَظِيمُ ١١٩

Allāh will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allāh being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

____

 

Now if it's possible that a Christian gets forgiven despite his erroneous beliefs as long as he's trutful [and therefore someone who does good deeds and abstains from major sins / crimes], then this is also true regarding the Muslim, who may have a misunderstanding regarding some issues (like the issue of Wilaya), but is otherwise a truthful person and someone who does good deeds and abstains from oppression and major sins or crimes.

(I know that a lot of tradional Tafasir may not accept the above stated, but primarly because of thinking about these issues similar to how the Ahl al-Kitab before us thought about it and claimed pureness for themselves and acted as if hellfire could not touch them - no matter how bad their actions were - except for a limited time.) 

 

To make it short: Salvation is not about being lucky and being born into the "correct" family or the "correct" culture / country (because most people adhere to the religion of their family / culture / country), but rather about being truthful and having a good heart [which necessitates trying to do as much good as possible and to abstain from evil]:

26:88
يَوْمَ لاَ يَنفَعُ مَالٌ وَلاَ بَنُونَ ٨٨

The Day when there will not benefit [anyone] wealth or children

26:89
إِلاَّ مَنْ أَتَى ٱللَّهَ بِقَلْبٍ سَلِيمٍ ٨٩

But only one who comes to Allāh with a sound heart."

___

 

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As for your statement that the statement of "La ilaha illa Allah" will only be accepted [and only lead to salvation] if the Wilaya of the infallible Imams is accepted:

Allah ta'ala has not mentioned such a condition in His Book and we can't add conditions from ourselves. 

If you say that you found this in narrations, then I ask you where Allah ta'ala obliged us to take single narrations reported by random fallible people as the religion of Allah itself? 

If something is established in transmission and in meaning, then yes it has to be accepted if one knows it and understood the proof, but otherwise there is no obligation.

You can say that it's the Ijtihad of a group of scholars (i.e. the belief in 12 infallible Imams), but this is not binding upon the whole Umma nor a necessary condition for salvation. 

Salam at first it's not "ijtihad of group of scholars (i.e. the belief in 12 infallible Imams) " which hadith of golden chain has been accepted in similar fashion of Hadith of Ghadir by both of Sunni & Shia muslims which it has been narrated by Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in public gathering in front of many trustworthy narrators whether Sunni or Shia trustworthy narrators .

Quote

Ḥadīth Silsilat al-Dhahab (Arabic: حديث سِلسِلَة الذَّهَب, the Golden Chain Hadith) is a qudsi hadith narrated by Imam al-Rida (a) on his way to Merv through Neyshabur, on the unity of God and one of its main conditions. Since all the narrators of this hadith are the infallible Imams (a), all the way to the Prophet (s), who has narrated it from Jabra'il (Gabriel) from God, thus it has been called Silsilat al-Dhahab, which means Golden Chain. According to some reports as Imam al-Rida (a) was saying the hadith more than twenty thousand people were writing it.

 

Considering the fact that the issue of tawhid and wilaya are mentioned beside each other in this hadith, it has been said that the main point of the hadith is asserting the link between these two principles, because the majority of the people of Nishapur at that time were Sunnis, who disregarded such a link between the two. Accordingly, Imam al-Rida (a) intended to remind them of the fact that reaching the true tawhid, which is the foundation of religion, and worshipping God alone can only realize through following the true Imam.^[12]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_Silsilat_al-Dhahab

 

17 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Allah ta'ala has not mentioned such a condition in His Book and we can't add conditions from ourselves. 

 

Salam this condition has been proven countless times in similar fashion which existence of  following Wilayat in holy Quran has been proven in opposition to nonsense of Quranists & Wahabist about denying it which  Namaz/Salah only be accepted  by sending Dorood/salawat on prophet & his progeny (Aal ) although it has not been mentioned in holy Quran  so then in similar fashion "La ilaha illa Allah" will only be accepted [and only lead to salvation] if the Wilaya of the infallible Imams is accepted;

 

Lecture 1: Discussion on Ayat al-Wilayat

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily your guardian is Allah and His Messenger and those who accept faith and establish prayer and give zakat while they are bowing down.” (5:55)

 

Quote

For this very reason the Prophet of God has told us that, ‘the Quran has a zahir (obvious) aspect and it has a batin (hidden) aspect. In every hidden aspect there is yet another hidden aspect, rather seven of them; in fact, to each there could be seventy hidden aspects’. Our Prophet further tells us that, ‘there is not a single word in the Quran that does not have at least seventy thousand meanings associated with it’.

 

The saying that ‘there is no prayer (namaz or salat) without the opening Surah Al Hamd’, is well known. The daily five time prayers, Friday prayers, Eid prayers, prayer (namaz or salat) e Ayaat, or consider any other prayer; is any devoid of Al Hamd? Prayers can be offered without other Quranic surahs.

 

Quote

However, there is one specific prayer that has neither Al Hamd nor rukuh nor sujood. It is a prayer (namaz or salat) but has none of the essential components. Today we are saying this prayer for others and tomorrow we will be requiring others to say this prayer for us. This is a prayer for the deceased (salat e janaza). Is there Sura Al Hamd in it? Or rukuh or sujood? None of the essential elements of prayer are present here but can you say that in the absence of these basic elements this prayer is not a proper prayer? Who can make this claim when the Quran itself terms it prayer?

So there is a prayer which has no Al Hamd but it is a prayer; no bending or prostration, yet it is a prayer. By the grace of God, the prayer that is valid even without Al Hamd, which is valid without rukuh and valid without sujood, is not valid without offering darood (blessings) on the Prophet and his Aal .

It is important that you stay focused on this issue that in every prayer along with Surah Al Hamd and bending and prostration, sending blessings on Prophet Muhammad and his Aal is an absolutely essential requirement. In other words, without this round of blessings for these pious persons no prayer is complete. Darood is that magnificent component of prayer which cannot be ignored. Thus, we realize that God does not like the prayers where no blessings are showered and where no praise is lavished on our Prophet and his Aal.

Quote

Our Prophet has informed us that looking at these three things is akin to Worship: The first is Kaaba , the second is Quran and the third is the face of Shah e wala ( King of the Sublime)!

Now if casting a glance at his face is akin to worship, then what will be the level of excellence of this worshiper himself! In the light of the Prophet’s instructions, consider this particular aspect. You are looking at Ali but you are worshipping God. The person you are looking at is not the one you are worshiping; and the one you are worshiping you cannot see. No doubt desire to look at God can be termed worship, yet how strange that you are looking at Kaaba but you are worshipping God! Beholding Ali but worshiping God! Reviewing the Quran and worshiping God! Apparently this seems illogical but it is resolving an issue.

Please note what is being said is not illogical. In fact it has an amazing logic. You need to put a condition on how you look. What style of glance can be termed worship? It is obvious that all glances are not worthy of this equivalence.

Looking at Kaaba with the intention of destroying it cannot be termed worship. Remind yourself of the incidence of Abraha. A lot of people looked at the Quran with the intention of rejecting it. This cannot be termed an act of worship. When Marhab came to challenge Ali, he surely looked at him; but can this glance be termed reverential? Obviously not. Hence, we conclude that all views are not for the purpose of worship. In fact, a view or a sight itself guides how and with what kind of reverence it should be viewed.

Now I draw your attention to Ayat al-Wilayat,

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily, your guardian is Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who believe and establish the prayer and give zakat (the poor-rate) while they are in the state of rukuh (bowing down)”. (5:55)

This ayat came in honour of Amir ul Mu’mineen. What a magnificent verse! The Creator of this world selects a word, a title that is equally suitable both for Himself and for His best of creation!

Technically, the words used for God are not the words used for the Messenger of God, and the words used for the Messenger are not used for Ali. The term Rasool Allah, Prophet of God, cannot include God or Ali. Now consider the words Wasi e Rasool, Heir of the Prophet. This term is suitable for Ali, but it certainly cannot be used for the Prophet or for God. There is a separate word for the Prophet and an exclusive word for God. So the specific identities are for differentiating and not for grouping together. There is a particular word for each being and this word can neither be used here nor there. It is exclusively reserved for this designated being.

The All Mighty wished to hold a congregation where He would be addressed by a title, which along with Him could also be used to refer to the Prophet, as well as to remember Ali. Each has a separate identity, but God wished to share a common name that would bind the three together. The shortlisted word is ‘wali’. Selecting this word, He first used it for Himself, then He referred to the Prophet as wali and next He highlighted traits of Ali and granted him the title of wali.

https://www.al-islam.org/foremost-faith-maulana-syed-mohammad-jaffer-zaidi-shaheed/lecture-1-discussion-ayat-al-wilayat

 

Sunni viewpoint 

The Conditions of "La ilaha illa Allah"

Quote

The First Condition: Knowledge (Ilm)
The Second Condition: Certainty (Yaqin)
The Third Condition: Acceptance (Qabul)
The Fourth Condition: Submission (Inqiyad)
The Fifth Condition: Truthfulness (Sidq)
The Sixth Condition: Sincerity (Ikhlas)
The Seventh Condition: Love (Mahabbah)
The Eighth Condition: Denial of All Other Deities
The Ninth Condition: Adherence until Death

https://sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/53-conditions-of-la-ilaha-illa-allah

https://en.islamway.net/article/25123/the-conditions-of-la-ilaha-illa-allah

We only can find utmost of these 9 conditions of accepting La ilaha illa Allah in Sunni viewpoint only in prophet Muahammad (pbu) & lady Fatima (sa) & 12 infallible Imams which it means accepting which Sunnis have accepted Wilayah in theory but on the other hand rejected it in practice but Shia muslim have accepted it in both of theory & practice. 

Edited December 25, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Just to add an clarification to avoid misunderstandings:

What has been stated in the opening post is NOT a support of the so called "Quranist" approach, because the Quranist approach is often mixed with modernist ideas and usually neglects established informations and therefore ends up opposing the Quran al-karim that it claims to take as its foundation.

Rather what is being supported here is to rely on the Quran al-karim - the revelation from Allah ta'ala - and upon what is established from the words of the Best of Creation (peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family) in transmission and meaning with certainity. As for single reports, then they can be accepted, if they agree with the Quran al-karım or at least do not oppose any of its principles or aims, but they should not be used to establish major issues of creed (due to the lack of certainity). 

 

From what is established from the words of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him and his pure family) is that we should adhere to the Book of Allah ta'ala and to his Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them). What is also established is that after our noble Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib ('alayhil salam) is the master of all believers and that enmity towards him is disobedience to Allah ta'ala and therefore leads to hellfire. 

 

From a practical point of view: If one adheres to what the Ahl al-Bayt have agreed upon, then one will have clarity regarding the major issues of creed and will know whom to support and whom not. At the same time one will not need to rely on the claims of random fallible single narrators, whom neither Allah ta'ala nor his Messenger (peace be upon him) has obliged us to follow (rather this was the mistake that the previous nations had fallen into). 

An example: The Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) were agreed upon the Tanzih (transcendence) of Allah ta'ala, so any claim / narration - no matter by whom - that goes in the direction of Tashbih / Tajsim (anthropomorphism) is to be rejected. 

Another example: The Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) stressed the issue of justice and the importance of good deeds and abstaining from oppression, major sins and crimes. They opposed the oppressors and some of them got martyred due to this. So any support - including narrations, praise and so on - for the oppressors of the past or the present - irrespective how many supporters they had or have or how many lands they controlled or control - is to be rejected! 

Edited December 26, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Muslim2010]

On 12/24/2024 at 7:12 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

5:119
قَالَ ٱللَّهُ هَـٰذَا يَوْمُ يَنفَعُ ٱلصَّادِقِينَ صِدْقُهُمْ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٌ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ أَبَداً رَّضِيَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُواْ عَنْهُ ذٰلِكَ ٱلْفَوْزُ ٱلْعَظِيمُ ١١٩

Allāh will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allāh being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

Muflehun? ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

The following research confirms the above statement:

٥٨_٢٢          لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًۭا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ يُوَآدُّونَ مَنْ حَآدَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَوْ كَانُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَآءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَٰنَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍۢ مِّنْهُ ۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍۢ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ رَضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ ۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ حِزْبُ ٱللَّهِ ۚ أَلَآ إِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

The verses mentions that حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ  They are Allah’s confederates. Look! The confederates of Allah are indeed felicitous!

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَهُمْ رَٰكِعُونَ

005:055 Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down.

وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْغَٰلِبُونَ

005:056 Whoever takes for his guardians Allah, His Messenger and the faithful [should know that] the confederates of Allah are indeed the victorious.

Thus the above discussion confirms that the followers of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and 11 Imams after him are the felicitous ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 12/25/2024 at 6:24 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first it's not "ijtihad of group of scholars (i.e. the belief in 12 infallible Imams) " which hadith of golden chain has been accepted in similar fashion of Hadith of Ghadir by both of Sunni & Shia muslims which it has been narrated by Imam Reza (عليه السلام) in public gathering in front of many trustworthy narrators whether Sunni or Shia trustworthy narrators .

 

Considering the fact that the issue of tawhid and wilaya are mentioned beside each other in this hadith, it has been said that the main point of the hadith is asserting the link between these two principles, because the majority of the people of Nishapur at that time were Sunnis, who disregarded such a link between the two. Accordingly, Imam al-Rida (a) intended to remind them of the fact that reaching the true tawhid, which is the foundation of religion, and worshipping God alone can only realize through following the true Imam.^[12]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_Silsilat_al-Dhahab

 

 

Salam this condition has been proven countless times in similar fashion which existence of  following Wilayat in holy Quran has been proven in opposition to nonsense of Quranists & Wahabist about denying it which  Namaz/Salah only be accepted  by sending Dorood/salawat on prophet & his progeny (Aal ) although it has not been mentioned in holy Quran  so then in similar fashion "La ilaha illa Allah" will only be accepted [and only lead to salvation] if the Wilaya of the infallible Imams is accepted;

 

Lecture 1: Discussion on Ayat al-Wilayat

بِسۡمِ اللّٰہِ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الرَّحِیۡمِ

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily your guardian is Allah and His Messenger and those who accept faith and establish prayer and give zakat while they are bowing down.” (5:55)

 

 

The saying that ‘there is no prayer (namaz or salat) without the opening Surah Al Hamd’, is well known. The daily five time prayers, Friday prayers, Eid prayers, prayer (namaz or salat) e Ayaat, or consider any other prayer; is any devoid of Al Hamd? Prayers can be offered without other Quranic surahs.

 

So there is a prayer which has no Al Hamd but it is a prayer; no bending or prostration, yet it is a prayer. By the grace of God, the prayer that is valid even without Al Hamd, which is valid without rukuh and valid without sujood, is not valid without offering darood (blessings) on the Prophet and his Aal .

It is important that you stay focused on this issue that in every prayer along with Surah Al Hamd and bending and prostration, sending blessings on Prophet Muhammad and his Aal is an absolutely essential requirement. In other words, without this round of blessings for these pious persons no prayer is complete. Darood is that magnificent component of prayer which cannot be ignored. Thus, we realize that God does not like the prayers where no blessings are showered and where no praise is lavished on our Prophet and his Aal.

Now I draw your attention to Ayat al-Wilayat,

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily, your guardian is Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who believe and establish the prayer and give zakat (the poor-rate) while they are in the state of rukuh (bowing down)”. (5:55)

This ayat came in honour of Amir ul Mu’mineen. What a magnificent verse! The Creator of this world selects a word, a title that is equally suitable both for Himself and for His best of creation!

Technically, the words used for God are not the words used for the Messenger of God, and the words used for the Messenger are not used for Ali. The term Rasool Allah, Prophet of God, cannot include God or Ali. Now consider the words Wasi e Rasool, Heir of the Prophet. This term is suitable for Ali, but it certainly cannot be used for the Prophet or for God. There is a separate word for the Prophet and an exclusive word for God. So the specific identities are for differentiating and not for grouping together. There is a particular word for each being and this word can neither be used here nor there. It is exclusively reserved for this designated being.

The All Mighty wished to hold a congregation where He would be addressed by a title, which along with Him could also be used to refer to the Prophet, as well as to remember Ali. Each has a separate identity, but God wished to share a common name that would bind the three together. The shortlisted word is ‘wali’. Selecting this word, He first used it for Himself, then He referred to the Prophet as wali and next He highlighted traits of Ali and granted him the title of wali.

https://www.al-islam.org/foremost-faith-maulana-syed-mohammad-jaffer-zaidi-shaheed/lecture-1-discussion-ayat-al-wilayat

 

Sunni viewpoint 

The Conditions of "La ilaha illa Allah"

https://sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/53-conditions-of-la-ilaha-illa-allah

https://en.islamway.net/article/25123/the-conditions-of-la-ilaha-illa-allah

We only can find utmost of these 9 conditions of accepting La ilaha illa Allah in Sunni viewpoint only in prophet Muahammad (pbu) & lady Fatima (sa) & 12 infallible Imams which it means accepting which Sunnis have accepted Wilayah in theory but on the other hand rejected it in practice but Shia muslim have accepted it in both of theory & practice. 

Wa 'alaykum al-Salam, 

the proof for the Imama / Wilaya of Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) is very strong and there is also strong proof for the Imama of al-Hassan wal-Hussayn (peace be upon them), but the same strength of proofs is not present for the Aimma after them. 

And please don't try to argue against an issue that is established. Even major Imami figures would become confused whenever one of the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) - whom they regarded as an infallible Imam - would die and not know whom to regard as an infallible Imam after them. 

This is why I stated that one could say that the belief in infallible Imams with the exact order that you preach can be regarded as an Ijtihad by a group of scholars, but you can't claim that just because someone doesn't agree 100 % with your view, that he has opposed the religion of Allah ta'ala. 

Those who accepted the leadership of Imam 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) in the time of Amir al-Mumin himself were safe in the time of the Fitan, because they sided with the truth and not with the oppressors. 

That which distinguished the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) was their steadfastness on commanding good and forbidding evil and opposing oppression, major sins and crimes. They preserved the real understanding of Islam be it in creed or in actions and they were opposed to the false ideas that were entering the Umma through the narrations from here or there. Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) advised us to hold unto to Book of Allah ta'ala and to his Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon him) due to his knowledge that they would preserve the correct understanding of the Book of Allah ta'ala. 

Today people are becoming confused or may even leave the religion altogether or may not enter into the religion due to single narrations made up by random people. There are a number of narrations - which some mindless people call as "sahih" - that contain clear wrong informations and this can be shown and proven. The Shaykh Hassan bin Farhan al-Maliki has shown this regarding a number of these narrations. 

We should really stop this obsession with Ahadith, because they have done much more bad than good and they played a major role in turning people away from the important things in our religion to secondary, completely irrelevant or even wrong things. Many of these Ahadith were the result of political leaders influence on the scholars of Hadith. This can be shown, so it's not simply a claim. 

The Sira of the Best of Creation (peace be upon him) and that of his Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) has been tarnished through these type of Ahadith! 

Allah ta'ala gave us the best of speech revealed to the most Noble of Creation (peace and blessings be upon him) and what did we do?! We acted similar to Bani Israil and ascribed all types of falsehood to the Chosen One (peace be upon him) and to his Pure Progeny as if Allah ta'ala mentioned the mistakes of the nations before us just in order to criticize them and not in order for us not to commit the same mistakes. Wallahul musta'an. 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

but the same strength of proofs is not present for the Aimma after them. 

And please don't try to argue against an issue that is established. Even major Imami figures would become confused whenever one of the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) - whom they regarded as an infallible Imam - would die and not know whom to regard as an infallible Imam after them. 

Salam respectfully in opposition to you claim there is strong proofs about imamate of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) & other infallible Imams until Imam Mahdi (aj)  which these proofs have been mentioned countless times in other similar threads .

Your argument about confusion is too weak nonsense which has been refuted many times in debates with so called Zaydis likewise @Zaydism which it's obvious previous thread that you are following his footsteps for denying imamate of infallible Imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) ;which confusion about Imam has been happened between ordinary Shias who have not access to confidential secrets for safeguarding next Imam which if their names & attributes  have been a public matter  so then their enemies would kill them before becoming next Imam which only these confidential secrets have been hold by few trustworthy comapnions of Imams who could preserve these secrets which in case of confusion they would guide normal Shias to recognizing next Imam after martyrdom of the infallible Imam which your comparison this with the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) is comparing apples with oranges because scholars are just deputies not Imams which people can choose a Marja as deputy of infallible Imam which if that deputy has been disqualified for any reason so then people can leave him & choose another Marja while the infallible Imam has not disqualification which some handpicked trustworthy scholars who can preserve their secrets can lead people to recognizing infallible Imam between frauds. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Haji 2003
Problematic word deleted

[Muslim2010]

18 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Wa 'alaykum al-Salam, 

the proof for the Imama / Wilaya of Amir al-Muminin 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) is very strong and there is also strong proof for the Imama of al-Hassan wal-Hussayn (peace be upon them), but the same strength of proofs is not present for the Aimma after them. 

You have failed so far to provide a single hadith for the Immmah of Zaid bin Ali and more than 100 so called pseudo imams.

Just you are trying to defend the false principle followed by Zadiys like Sunni defend saqeefa pick and choose principle. Immaah of 12 Imams defined by clear hadith and verses of quran with analysis in todays's world  that i have presented in my last post.

Wasallam

 

[StrangerInThisWorld]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam respectfully in opposition to you claim there is strong proofs about imamate of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) & other infallible Imams until Imam Mahdi (aj)  which these proofs have been mentioned countless times in other similar threads .

Your argument about confusion is too weak nonsense which has been refuted many times in debates with so called Zaydis likewise @Zaydism which it's obvious previous thread that you are following his footsteps for denying imamate of infallible Imams after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) ;which confusion about Imam has been happened between ordinary Shias who have not access to confidential secrets for safeguarding next Imam which if their names & attributes  have been a public matter  so then their enemies would kill them before becoming next Imam which only these confidential secrets have been hold by few trustworthy comapnions of Imams who could preserve these secrets which in case of confusion they would guide normal Shias to recognizing next Imam after martyrdom of the infallible Imam which your comparison this with the scholars of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) is comparing apples with oranges because scholars are just deputies not Imams which people can choose a Marja as deputy of infallible Imam which if that deputy has been disqualified for any reason so then people can leave him & choose another Marja while the infallible Imam has not disqualification which some handpicked trustworthy scholars who can preserve their secrets can lead people to recognizing infallible Imam between frauds. 

I would like to make the following points in response:

- The 12 Imams (peace be upon them) are leaders of guidance in my understanding with Imam 'Ali, Imam al-Hasan and Imam al-Hussayn (peace be upon them) having a very special position due to the clear and established Nusus regarding them. It should however be noted that I do not believe that any of the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt after Imam al-Hussayn (peace be upon him) believed themselves to be in the same category as him (this due to the lack of established Nusus after him), nor that Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) is the son of Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (peace be upon him) and this due to the lack of a clear proof that he had a son, rather what seems more likely is that Imam al-Mahdi will be born later and will be from the progeny of al-Hassan or al-Hussayn (peace be upon them). 

- The point of this thread is that many - if not most! - Ahadith do not allow certainity that our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) or his pure Progeny did indeed say the statements that are found in them or acted as it is claimed in them. The scholars of Kalam of the different Madhahib will easily be able to affirm this point. As such these type of Ahadith should not be used to establish major issues of creed and one should not use them to oppose anything that is established with certainty. 

- I do not believe that the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) differed in major issues of the religion. As such I believe that Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq and Imam Zayd bin 'Ali or Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari and Imam al-Hasan al-Utrush (peace be upon them all) shared the same creed in major issues. There is no proof to suggest that they were opposed to eachother. 

- Your statement of this issue being a secret proves my point that our salvation or damnation can not depend on it. The judgment of Allah ta'ala is based upon what people know and what has reached them and if the very children of the Aimma (peace be upon them) did not know about this issue, then how do you expect all other Muslims to know? 

 

If one accepts whatever has reached one from the truth after realizing it and acts accordingly (meaning: performs good deeds and abstains from oppression and major sins), then Allah ta'ala has promised salvation to such people. May Allah ta'ala make us all from among them. 

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Some people from among the Shi'a and even non-Shi'a have successfully shown that Sahih al-Bukhari contains wrong informations regarding our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) and that one should therefore be cautious to accept everything it contains. 

The same is also true regarding Kitab al-Kafi regarding the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them). We find for example a great number of narrations supporting Tahrif al-Quran in it and this with the knowledge that the Aimma did not have this view, rather gave absolute precedence to the Quran al-karim. 

 

If one truly is from the Shi'a of Imam 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him), then one should not find it difficult to acknowledge that these type of Ahadith do not represent the Aimma (peace be upon them). Being a Shi'a has never been about following Ahadith, but rather about following the Book of Allah ta'ala in accordance to the understanding of the pure Progeny of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam). 

 

2:44
۞ أَتَأْمُرُونَ ٱلنَّاسَ بِٱلْبِرِّ وَتَنسَوْنَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ تَتْلُونَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ ۚ أَفَلَا تَعْقِلُونَ ٤٤

Do you order righteousness of the people and forget yourselves while you recite the Scripture? Then will you not reason?

___

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 12/28/2024 at 3:52 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

- I do not believe that the Aimma of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) differed in major issues of the religion. As such I believe that Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq and Imam Zayd bin 'Ali or Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari and Imam al-Hasan al-Utrush (peace be upon them all) shared the same creed in major issues. There is no proof to suggest that they were opposed to eachother. 

 

Salam as usual you are comparing apples with oranges which Zayd bin 'Ali (رضي الله عنه) never called himself an Imam which even Zaydis have few rare hadiths from him which al-Hasan al-Utrush ha no credibility which only people likewise you have exaggerated about him without having a solid evidence about his knowledge which he himself has rivalry with other so called Zaydi Imams in his time which maybe he followed shia princples but comaprison of him with infallible Imams likewise Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (عليه السلام) is just a laughable comparison . 

On 12/28/2024 at 3:52 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

nor that Imam al-Mahdi (peace be upon him) is the son of Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (peace be upon him) and this due to the lack of a clear proof that he had a son, rather what seems more likely is that Imam al-Mahdi will be born later and will be from the progeny of al-Hassan or al-Hussayn (peace be upon them). 

His birth as son of Imam  Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (عليه السلام) has been proven countless times by reliable documents which opponents of his birth likewise you neven could provide a reliable example for denying his birth from Imam al-Hasan al-'Askari (عليه السلام) except saying that  it's "due the lack of a clear proof " while you have no reliable evidence for denying the clear proof. 

On 12/28/2024 at 3:52 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

If one accepts whatever has reached one from the truth after realizing it and acts accordingly (meaning: performs good deeds and abstains from oppression and major sins), then Allah ta'ala has promised salvation to such people. May Allah ta'ala make us all from among them. 

InshaAllah.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

The so called "Sahihayn" contain some absolutely wrong Ahadith, where the image of Rasulullah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) is tarnished. 

I really can NOT understand why a Muslim would accept such Ahadith and would put his own salvation on risk by following the footsteps of [a group from among] the Ahl al-Kitab, who would lie against the Messengers and Prophets of God (peace be upon them).

And let no one think that these Ahadith are genuine! If one investigates, then one will find specific persons in the chain, who were usually close to Bani Umayya or had clear Nasibi ideas. 

 

What I find surprising is that the same people who think that the religion revolves around the Sahaba (without distinction between the good and the bad among them) will accept Ahadith highly insulting towards someone like 'Aisha and this despite their claim to love her. 

While there is no doubt regarding her committing a grave mistake in her opposition towards Amir al-Muminin (peace be upon him) at al-Jamal, but these narrations are something else! 

So I ask the Sunnis, who defend ALL that is in Sahih al-Bukhari or Sahih Muslim: What is wrong with you that you have accepted these shameless narrations? Wallahi I'm ashamed to even quote some of the absolutely disgusting things that you accuse her of, while claiming to love her! 

Edited January 3 by StrangerInThisWorld