What do Islam think of Anti Natalism?

[Botak]

Antinatalism or anti-natalism is a philosophical view that deems procreation to be unethical. Antinatalists thus argue that humans should abstain from having children.[1][2][3][4][5] Some antinatalists consider coming into existence to always be a serious harm. Their views are not necessarily limited only to humans but may encompass all sentient creatures, arguing that coming into existence is a serious harm for sentient beings in general.[6]: 2–3, 163 [7][8][9][10]

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism)

 

I also have heard an argument for it that if someone is born, they had a chance of going to heaven, or hell. But someone who doesnt exist, will not go to hell (tho not heaven either) so why dont we just uh... kill everybody by not procreating? 

[mahmood8726]

"Some antinatalists consider coming into existence to always be a serious harm. "

 

1) Islam is not a utilitarian religion, it doesn't beleive in the harm principle. 

2) it's not our fault they have a delusional beleif where they think going into existence "will always be a serious harm".

 

These people should seriously consider getting a job instead of whatever the hell this nonsense is. It's like they never left their rooms in months. 

 

Comming into existence is a good thing, you experience life and you have a chance of going to heaven. Think about it yourself, do you want to not exist? 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Botak said:

Antinatalism or anti-natalism is a philosophical view that deems procreation to be unethical. Antinatalists thus argue that humans should abstain from having children.[1][2][3][4][5] Some antinatalists consider coming into existence to always be a serious harm. Their views are not necessarily limited only to humans but may encompass all sentient creatures, arguing that coming into existence is a serious harm for sentient beings in general.[6]: 2–3, 163 [7][8][9][10]

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism)

 

I also have heard an argument for it that if someone is born, they had a chance of going to heaven, or hell. But someone who doesnt exist, will not go to hell (tho not heaven either) so why dont we just uh... kill everybody by not procreating? 

Looks like mentally unstable people.

[PureExistence1]

5 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

 

Comming into existence is a good thing, you experience life and you have a chance of going to heaven. Think about it yourself, do you want to not exist? 

Salaam, according to islam, we existed before this dunya-i existence, in alam al dhar, or realm of particles, the place where souls took the oath that there is only 1 Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), etc. Its mentioned Quran.

(Sometimes i get bothered by this because i have a difficulty with expecting people to be held to a commitment they dont even remember making, but that is another issue. I remember being very upset about something i was going through one time and i mentioned to a sister who lives in Qom with extensive hawzah education that "I DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR ALL THIS!!!" and she said, "Sister, you'd be surprised what you signed up for!" ...ngl, that just made me more mad, but whatever...)

I havent even heard of the term antinatalism, however,  some people have legit reasons to not have children, and some people just by their own nature and screwed up childhood SHOULDN'T have children. It doesnt mean theyre suffering from extreme mental conditions if they made a decision not to. There are enough willfully childbearing people out there anyway.

No soul is going to be harmed because some people decide not to have children. It is all in Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wisdom. They are not cheating anyone out of a chance to be here or go to heaven. The souls simply incarnate into someone elses fetus which occurs around 4 lunar months, prior to which the fetus has nothing more than a plant soul. Plant soul is completely dependent on its physical body for existence. If it dies before ensoulment, it doesnt go to heaven or hell as that is reserved for human soul. Plant soul ceases to exist once the plant dies.

After ensoulment, the fetus has the soul of the human and the soul starts to generate the body, not the other way around that most people believe, that the body generates the soul..

Anyway, vast subject fir another time

At the end of the day, having children is not wajib.

Salaam

[realizm]

Are they 'anti themselves' then ?

[Botak]

9 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

you experience life and you have a chance of going to heaven.

But you also have a chance to go to hell?

[Botak]

3 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

The souls simply incarnate into someone elses

I thought its already fated? 

Like when someone is created, its already come with the "the baby father is x and the mother is y" as a package

[Hameedeh]

5 minutes ago, Botak said:

I thought its already fated

No. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows everything about all of us, but He allows us to make our own decisions and it is our own choices that change our fate for better or worse.

Allah saves you from danger, so always pray to Him and thank Him. Love Him and the Ahlul Bayt AS. This is the most important relationship in your life. 

[mahmood8726]

26 minutes ago, Botak said:

But you also have a chance to go to hell?

Yes, that's the price that comes with free will. Most of us are grateful to be intelligent beings with free will, even the Palestinians in Gaza suffering horribly are grateful for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), none of us have an excuse for this pessimism. 

[Botak]

On 11/11/2024 at 6:26 AM, mahmood8726 said:

Yes, that's the price that comes with free will.

What if I dont want free will?

Tho tbh God doesnt really guve us a choice in the matter lol

[PureExistence1]

5 minutes ago, Botak said:

Tho tbh God doesnt really guve us a choice in the matter lol

Salaam, fr tho bro  

We just get born here due to some choices other people made....then we have to accept that we somehow agreed to this when we dont even remember doing that but since its in the Quran and were Muslims, we (and everyone else including non muslims etc) have no choice but to live according to this grand algorithm with all its scientific laws, religious rules and causes and effects that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) designed...

Yea idk sometimes -.-

[Guest Find the nearest one]

On 11/10/2024 at 8:50 AM, mahmood8726 said:

consider getting a job instead of whatever the hell this nonsense is. It's like they never left their rooms in months. 

I think you hit the nail on the head. This reminds me of Karl Marx, the man who was only able to come up with such ideas because he didn’t work. 
 

And I think it’s funny how the people who suffer the most in this world don’t hold or agree with nihilistic ideas. Rather they embrace God, love life, and struggle every day in the hopes that one day they can have success. The same starving Yemenis love life and goodness so much that they’re waging war against Israelis.

Let me hear a Gazan talk about anti natalism, then I may take the idea seriously. Until then, I’ll only hear it from privileged people whose only danger to them is their own minds.

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, Botak said:

What if I dont want free will?

Tho tbh God doesnt really guve us a choice in the matter lol

 

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

We just get born here due to some choices other people made...

Salam there is some narration which we ourselves have had some choice by ourselves which some Shia muslims who have experienced NDE have said that they have seen some stage before their birth about choosing their parents & body type & gender & etc .

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

then we have to accept that we somehow agreed to this when we dont even remember doing that but since its in the Quran and were Muslims

This is something which has been recorded as Fitra which is a general understanding & agreement while proving it needs facing exams & trials in this world .

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

have no choice but to live according to this grand algorithm with all its scientific laws, religious rules and causes and effects that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) designed...

everyone has a choice which we will be questioned so then rewarded based on our choices in this world although we have neither have not neither total freedom nor  total obligation which for everyone is between these two which we won't be questioned & rewarded about things that we have not any choice about them which for example we can't deny cause & effect but we can choose that this causes our harm in car accident by violation of rules or drive safely by preserving laws although each person has his personal style for driving although we drive in one highway. 

he (Imam Ja'far) said: (That means) He made manifest to it (the soul) what (acts) are permissible and what sins are to be avoided. And He, Exalted is He, says:

“Verily We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving” (Qur'an 76:3),

 

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

Yea idk sometimes -.-

Yeah between two .

“And (did We not) guide him to the parting of the two mountain paths?” (Qur'an 90:10).

He said: (This refers to) the path of righteousness and the path of wickedness. And he said: That which Allah has kept from the knowledge of human beings is entirely set apart from them. And he also said: Allah has adduced reasons to mankind for what He has given them and what He has made known to them.6

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/concerning-mans-original-nature-fitra-and-his-true-guidance-hidaya

Amr bayn al-amrayn (Arabic: أمر بين الأمرين; meaning: a theory between the two theories) is Imamiyya's belief concerning Human predestination and free will.

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The theory of Amr Bayn al-Amrayn (a theory between the two theories) rejects both these theories and shows that both God's will and human will are involved in human's voluntary actions; these two wills are in line with each other, and this is the truth about human's free will in actions.^[6]

 since it does not make sense to seek aid from someone who is by no means involved in the realization of the action.^[16] In answer to a question about this problem, Imam al-Sadiq (a) appealed to this verse.^[17]

Another verse to this effect is verse 17 of Anfal:

So you did not slay them, but it was Allah who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote, but it was Allah who smote. ^[18]

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 the way to reconcile the two is by saying that God has given volition and free will to his servants, and this volition is along God's own volition.

 

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Imam al-Sadiq (a) assimilates the issue of human free will to a wrong-doing person that you prohibit him from the wrong action, but he does not listen to you. Imam said: since the wrong-doer did not comply with your prohibition and you let him do whatever he wants to do does not mean that you have ordered him to do the wrong action.^[32]

Commenting on this hadith, Mulla Sadra writes: in that you prohibited him, you did not let him do whatever he does, and in that you let him do the wrong action, you have not forced him to do the action.^[33]

 

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Relief from the Problems of the Theories of Predestination and Delegation

The theories of predestination and delegation have problems of their own—ones that might be bypassed by the theory of Amr Bayn al-Amrayn.

Two troubles with the theory of predestination:

• Moral and religious responsibilities of human beings do not make sense,
• Creation of bad things and sins by God.

The trouble with the theory of delegation: God's power would be limited, and the theory of monotheism in actions would be undermined.^[40]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Amr_Bayn_al-Amrayn

Fitrah

"Fitra" or "fitrah" (Arabic: فطرة‎; ALA-LC: fiṭrah), is the state of purity and innocence Muslims believe all humans to be born with. Fitra is an Arabic word that is usually translated as “original disposition,” “natural constitution,” or “innate nature.”According to Islamic theology, human beings are born with an innate inclination of tawhid (Oneness), which is encapsulated in the fitra along with compassion, intelligence, ihsan and all other attributes that embody the concept of humanity.

https://www.al-islam.org/tags/fitrah

 

[Botak]

On 11/12/2024 at 2:01 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

some Shia muslims who have experienced NDE have said that they have seen some stage before their birth about choosing their parents & body type & gender & etc .

Not meaning to sound rude,  but, Source?

Also if this is true than past me must have really screw up at the character creation page 

Though i wonder if its like a point system, like you could put 

5 strength, 3 agility, 0 luck, 9 charisma, etc

or maybe if you pick bad trait you could get a good deed multiplier (like maybe people who are born with disability pick the choice before they are born so they could get x10 on their deeds? Or they are just hardcore player)

Idk these all sounds wack

[Ashvazdanghe]

56 minutes ago, Botak said:

Not meaning to sound rude,  but, Source?

Salam 

 

1 hour ago, Botak said:

Also if this is true than past me must have really screw up at the character creation pag

Salam I have said that it's Amr bayn al-amrayn which Allah ha done it based on his wisdom although some people maybe have some limited options ; which maybe you dislike something but it will be in your favour.

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Yet it may be that you dislike something, which is good for you, and it may be that you love something, which is bad for you, and Allah knows and you do not know. (216) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:216

 It is He who forms you in the wombs [of your mothers] however He wishes. There is no god except Him, the All-mighty, the All-wise. (6) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/3:6

Allah knows what every female carries [in her womb], and what the wombs reduce and what they increase, and everything is by [precise] measure with Him, (8) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/13:8

 

1 hour ago, Botak said:

or maybe if you pick bad trait you could get a good deed multiplier (like maybe people who are born with disability pick the choice before they are born so they could get x10 on their deeds? Or they are just hardcore player)

Allah does not task any soul beyond its capacity. Whatever [good] it earns is to its own benefit, and whatever [evil] it incurs is to its own harm. ‘Our Lord! Take us not to task if we forget or make mistakes! Our Lord! Do not place upon us a burden as You placed on those who were before us! Our Lord! Do not lay upon us what we have no strength to bear! Excuse us, forgive us, and be merciful to us! You are our Master, so help us against the faithless lot!’ (286)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:286

[Botak]

Bit unrelated, but if the character creation page do exist before we are born, and you could go back in time and met your soul what will you tell them?

"No! Dont pick the laziness traits! I mnow we dont have much points left but the bonus point isnt worth it!"

"You csn shave like 5 points from charisma to intelligent, trust me"

"WHY DID YOU PICK MUAWIYAH AS YOUR FATHER"

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, Botak said:

"WHY DID YOU PICK MUAWIYAH AS YOUR FATHER"

Salam it's about participating cursed Shaitan in lineage which both of parents of cursed Yazid (la) have been most wretched enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) & followers of cursed Shaitan however few people could overcome this which son of cursed Yazid not accepted to be successor of his cursed father because it has been recorded that his mother has shown empathy with Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) after martyrdom of Imam hussain (عليه السلام) also in similar fashion Sa'ad bin Abdul Malik  who was one of the children of Abdul Aziz bin Marwan, has been called as Sa'ad al-Khair because he has been a sincere follower f Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which there is another stories in similar fashion which a poet by titale of "Khaliei" خليعي who his parents have been Nasibis which his mother raised him in order to that he kills or disturb pilgrims of Imam Hussaian (عليه السلام) which when he tried to fulfill vow of his mother which after seeing a miracle in his dream he has turned into a devoted shia poet . 

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Instigate whomever of them you can with your voice; and rally against them your cavalry and your infantry, and share with them in wealth and children, and make promises to them!’ But Satan promises them nothing but delusion. (64) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/17:64

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Vicious women are for vicious men, and vicious men for vicious women. Good women are for good men, and good men for good women. These are absolved of what they say [about them]. For them is forgiveness and a noble provision. (26)

https://tanzil.net/#24:26

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Abu Hamzah: Sa'ad bin Abdul Malik - who was one of the children of Abdul Aziz bin Marwan, and Hazrat Baqir, peace be upon him, called him Sa'ad al-Khair - came to Imam Baqir, peace be upon him, while he was crying and shedding tears like women. Hazrat said: O Saad, why are you crying? He said: How can I not cry when I am from a family that has been cursed in the Quran?! Hazrat said to him: You are not from this family; You are an Umayyad who belongs to our family. Haven't you heard the words of Allah, the Exalted and Exalted, who quotes the words of Abraham/Ibrahim: "So whoever follows me, he is from me"?

https://www.hadithlib.com/rolls/view/80089/سعد-الخير

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Abul Hasan Jamal al-Din Ali Ibn Abdul Aziz Ibn Abi Muhammad Al-Khalaei, or Khalei «خليعي», is one of the prominent poets and sincere praise writers of Ahl al-Bayt((عليه السلام).), who at first he and his parents were Nasibis and enemies of Ahl al-Bayt ((عليه السلام).), but With the special care of the Ahl al-Bayt family, he recognized the right path and repented of his past bad deeds. The process of his guidance was described by the late Allameh Amini in his Sharif book of al-Ghadir: Khalei was from Mosul and lived in Hilla, his parents were Nasibis and enemies of Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام). His mother vowed that if God blesses her with a son, she will send him to bandit and harass and even kill the pilgrims of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) on the way of Imam Hussein's (عليه السلام) pilgrims' caravan. Almighty God gave him a son. This son grew up and reached the age that the woman could fulfill her vow, raised the matter with her son and he also accepted the mother's request; He went to the deserts of the "Museeb" «مسيب» region and waited for a while in the ambush of the pilgrims of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) until a caravan of pilgrims of Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) arrived to attack them and fulfill his mother's vow. The caravan had not yet arrived when sleep overcame his eyes. The caravan of pilgrims of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).) arrived, but despite the noise of the caravan and the dust that arose from their arrival, he did not wake up, the dust of the caravan covered his clothes and body. At the same time, "Khalei" saw in a dream: the scene of doomsday has been set up, the command came to throw him into the fire, they threw him into the fire, but there was dust on his body and clothes that prevented him from burning and The heat of the fire kept him safe. In his dream world, he realized that this dust is the dust of the caravan of pilgrims of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).), which is sitting on his body and clothes, and thanks to its blessing, he was spared from the fire of divine punishment. He woke up; He realized that he had made a big mistake, he regretted what he had done and returned from his intention and repented on the spot and decided to go to Karbala to apologize. With a heart full of anxiety and worry, he went to Karbala and entered the holy shrine of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).) and offered politeness and apologized to him for his past intentions and sang two verses, which were composed by one of the poets of Hillah estimated as follows:

أري بحيرة ملأتك رينا - و شتتك الهوي بينا فبينا فطب نفسا و قر بالله عينا - اذا شئت النجاة فزر حسينا لكي تلقي الاله قرير عينا اذا علم الملائك منك عزما - تروم مزاره كتبوك رسما و حرمت الجحيم عليك حتما - فان النار ليس تمس جسما عليه غبار زوار الحسينا

I see you surprised and you are surrounded by doubt - and the air of your soul has made you confused and blind, so purify your heart and keep your eyes glare to Allah - if you want to be saved, visit Hussain so that you can see Allah with clearness of eye(s), if the angels Let them know that what you have made a decision - visit him, they will write your name, and the fire of hell will definitely be forbidden to you - because the fire will not reach a body that is covered with the dust of Hossein's pilgrims.

Yes, in this way, he became one of the pure and clean friends of Ahl al-Bayt ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and received special care and favor from that beloved family.

The process of deposing Khalee (robe) from Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).)
The story does not end here; One of the favors given to Khalee by the Ahl al-Bayt ((عليه السلام).), and because of that, he was called Khalei or Khalaei, is a story that is narrated in Dar al-Salaam Nouri's book as follows:
One day, Khalei entered the shrine of Imam Hussain ((عليه السلام).) and sang poems in praise of him and recited these to him. While reciting this ode, the curtains of the door of the shrine fell on his shoulder, and in fact, it was a robe and a gift that was given to him by the Holy Prophet, and from then on, he was called Khalei or Khalaei, and he himself used the same word. He assumed Later, he also drank from Khan Karam, Amir Momenan, and took a khali from Mullah of Motaqiyan.
Today, his mausoleum and tomb in the Iraqi city of Hilla is the court of Hosseini's lovers.

https://hajj.ir/fa/69413