If You Break Third Shahadah or Wali of Ali are you doomed from Shia?

[Lion of Shia]

If Someone Violates or crosses third shahadah or wali of Ali are they doomed as apostates, Could they still be Shia?

[Borntowitnesstruth]

4 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

If Someone Violates or crosses third shahadah or wali of Ali are they doomed as apostates, Could they still be Shia?

When someone has acknowledged the fact that third Shahada should not be recited then it shows that he no longer believes in Wilayat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) because manifestation of an Aqeedah is through Act. Thus, such someone becomes suspicious as a Shia.

[Herati Karbalai]

there is no such thing as apostatizing from Shi'ism, the third shahadah has no legal effect upon a person. A person doesn't "become" shia upon saying it, and it's impossible to 'break' it because it is insubstantial. Shi'ism is the way of ma'rifah, but Islam is wider. Nobody converts into Shi'ism, they are either known for their obedience to Ahlul Bayt or to other leaders/

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

If Someone Violates or crosses third shahadah or wali of Ali are they doomed as apostates, Could they still be Shia?

Salam being a shia means to believing to it's principles in your heart & mind which apparent violation or crossing third Shahada doesn't make anyone apostate which maybe a shia due to Taqiyya will be forced to not say third Shahada or even will be forced to curse Imam for safeguarding his life among enemies although he has not declined his belief in his heart so therefore violation or crossing third Shahada doesn't make anyone apostate or out of Shia creed.

Quote

At the end, we narrate a story related to this approach of the Umayyads, which shows to what extent the Umayyads insisted on this practice and how some governors who loved Ali ((عليه السلام).) ran away from it: Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said to Hujr Badri said: "O Hujr, what you will do while you are sitting on the pulpit of Sana'a and they are ordering you to insult me and disassociate from me?"

Hujr Badri said: I seek refuge in Allah from doing this act.

Imam (عليه السلام) said : «وَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ كَائِنٌ فَإِذَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ فَسبَّنِي وَ لَا تَتَبَرَّأْ مِنِّي‏؛

I swear to Allah! This wil be happen! Curse me at that time, but don't disassociate me."

After many years  Hajjaj, he made Hujr the governor and ordered him to curse Ali (a). He went up to the pulpit and said:

 أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنْ أَمِيرَكُمْ هَذَا أَمَرَنِي أَنْ أَلْعَنَ عَلِيّاً أَلَا فَالْعَنُوهُ لَعَنَهُ اللَّه‏؛

O people! Indeed, your Amir has ordered me to curse Ali, indeed, curse him so that Allah  curses him.[10]
Hujr actually refrained from insulting Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) by cleverly using the pronoun and referring it to Hajj, which His Holiness had given him permission to do.

Manaqib Al Abi Talib v2, p269

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Manaqib_Al_Abi_Talib_(book)

https://islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/id22297

Edited November 3 by Ashvazdanghe

[realizm]

@Lion of Shia

Depends on what you mean by breaking. Zaydis believe in the 3rd Kalima but do not have the same view of what it implies as us Ja`faris. They are still Shi`as. 

@Borntowitnesstruth Again depends on what you mean by 'not reciting it'.

A couple of days may pass without me reciting it because I do not say it in adhan or iqama. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, realizm said:

A couple of days may pass without me reciting it because I do not say it in adhan or iqama. 

I think couple of days may pass without you reciting it  but it is probably not in denial that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is Waliullah and Wasi Rasoolullah, you just believe in it but do not declare it but one who is shia and believe in Imamah of 12 Imams when he recites Kalima, he should recite Aliyun Waliullah  as well and not to just keep it in heart because it will bring much more virtues and remove confusion among people as to whom you follow and support. And as long as you know that Haya Al-al Fallah is call towards the House of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) according to the teachings of Ahlebait, it is not necessary to say Aliyun waliullah in Adhan and Iqamah as well but if you think that people do not understand it then you should manifest it through Aliyun Waliullah in Adhan and Iqamah as well. 

Edited November 3 by Borntowitnesstruth

[Abu_Zahra]

11 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

When someone has acknowledged the fact that third Shahada should not be recited then it shows that he no longer believes in Wilayat of Imam Ali

If you're talking about the adhan and the iqamah, as all the major fuqaha have confirmed it isn't part of either of them. The aimmah (عليه السلام) did not recite this in their adhan and iqamah and they obviously believed in the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) more than anyone else 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If you're talking about the adhan and the iqamah, as all the major fuqaha have confirmed it isn't part of either of them. The aimmah (عليه السلام) did not recite this in their adhan and iqamah and they obviously believed in the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) more than anyone else 

Yeah and also the current Fuqha do not say that it is bad to add it in Adhan or Iqama because of the fact that Hayal Ala khair al Amal itself is meant to have tawassul to the house of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) so because of that if Aliyun Waliullah is said in Adhan or Iqama, there is no harm to it rather it is source of much more barakah.

[Lion of Shia]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam being a shia means to believing to it's principles in your heart & mind which apparent violation or crossing third Shahada doesn't make anyone apostate which maybe a shia due to Taqiyya will be forced to not say third Shahada or even will be forced to curse Imam for safeguarding his life among enemies although he has not declined his belief in his heart so therefore violation or crossing third Shahada doesn't make anyone apostate or out of Shia creed.

https://islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/id22297

So if you joined sufi or took a sufi oath but wanted back in to shia,could you still be one?

[Abu_Zahra]

On 11/3/2024 at 1:14 PM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Yeah and also the current Fuqha do not say that it is bad to add it in Adhan or Iqama

I was referring to your previous comment that if someone doesn't recite this there is something suspicious about them. On the contrary,  they are upon the sunnah of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

[realizm]

10 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

And as long as you know that Haya Al-al Fallah is call towards the House of Ahlebait (عليه السلام)

 

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Hayal Ala khair al Amal itself is meant to have tawassul to the house of Ahlebait (عليه السلام)

I hear 'go to felicity' and 'go to the best of acts'. Which both refer to salah. 

I am still sticking to that level of understanding and I am doing fine.

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

So if you joined sufi or took a sufi oath but wanted back in to shia,could you still be one?

Salam yeah you can back to Shia Islam anytime .

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 11/3/2024 at 5:21 AM, Lion of Shia said:

If Someone Violates or crosses third shahadah or wali of Ali are they doomed as apostates, Could they still be Shia?

I think you should explain what you exactly meant by violating the third shahadah.

If according to you, it means person denies the Imamah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), no longer considers him the best after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then he's not a shia obviously.

However, if you mean it like indo-pak zakirs claim that even if person believes in Imamah but does not recite third shahadah, then there's no issue. Its not a violation nor it affects the person's status as a shia.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

There's no evidence of recitation of third Shahadah in Azaan/Iqamah,
for Tashahud weak/forged hadiths do exist but they can't be accepted

3RD shahadah isn't even a juzz-e-wajib of Testimony of Faith (kalima).

Just believing in Imamah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & 12 Imams (عليه السلام) is sufficient.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

11 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

I was referring to your previous comment that if someone doesn't recite this there is something suspicious about then. On the contrary,  they are upon the sunnah of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

Well, I said as to how it appears. A person who doesn't recite it is always thought to be a belonging to another maktab so why should one restrict himself from that while there is no harm in it.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

55 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

3RD shahadah isn't even a juzz-e-wajib of Testimony of Faith (kalima).

 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ عَنْ عَجْلانَ أَبِي صَالِحٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ لأبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيهِ السَّلام) أَوْقِفْنِي عَلَى حُدُودِ الإيمَانِ فَقَالَ شَهَادَةُ أَنْ لا إِلَهَ إِلا الله وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ الله وَالإقْرَارُ بِمَا جَاءَ بِهِ مِنْ عِنْدِ الله وَصَلَوَاتُ الْخَمْسِ وَأَدَاءُ الزَّكَاةِ وَصَوْمُ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ وَحِجُّ الْبَيْتِ وَوَلايَةُ وَلِيِّنَا وَعَدَاوَةُ عَدُوِّنَا وَالدُّخُولُ مَعَ الصَّادِقِينَ

’Ajlan ibn Salih who has said the following: “I requested Abu ‘Abdillah ((عليه السلام)) ‘Teach me, please, the principles of beliefs. The Imam said, ‘They are: to testify and affirm that there is no one who deserves to be worshipped except Allah, to testify and affirm that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and to affirm that whatever he has taught is from Allah. (It is of the principles of beliefs) to affirm and accept that there is prayer five times every day. (It is of the principles of beliefs) to pay Zakat (charity), to fast in the month of Ramadan and to perform Hajj of the House (of Allah). (It is of the principles of beliefs) to love those who love us ( A ’immah from the family of the Messenger of Allah), to disown our enemies and to become part of the group of the truthful ones. (All such issues are of principles and obligatory matters).”’

Majlisi said Sahih - Mirʾāt al-ʿUqūl fī Sharḥ Akhbār Āl al-Rasūl (7/101) 

From thaqalayn.net

[Borntowitnesstruth]

9 hours ago, realizm said:

 

I hear 'go to felicity' and 'go to the best of acts'. Which both refer to salah. 

I am still sticking to that level of understanding and I am doing fine.

Brother, I have read a quote of one of our Aaimah which said that Haya Haya ala Khair Al amal means that you should connect to Aaimah (عليه السلام) or to House of Ahlebait (عليه السلام). if you search, I think you will find it.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

20 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

if you think that people do not understand it then you should manifest it through Aliyun Waliullah in Adhan and Iqamah as well.

Shia islam isn't based on people's opinion. It's Allahs religion and no one can add or remove things just because it suits them or they think its right.

Need to back it up by Quran / Hadith.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Shia islam isn't based on people's opinion. It's Allahs religion and no one can add or remove things just because it suits them or they think its right.

Need to back it up by Quran / Hadith.

What is more to back up than Ahlebait's own quote which I mentioned which said Haya ala Khair Al Amal is referring to house of Ahlebait (عليه السلام). So, in light of this if you say Aliyun waliullah, there is no problem in it because you have not added anything rather mentioned what is meant by Haya ala Khair Al Amal.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

What is more to back up than Ahlebait's own quote which I mentioned which said Haya ala Khair Al Amal is referring to house of Ahlebait (عليه السلام). So, in light of this if you say Aliyun waliullah, there is no problem in it because you have not added anything rather mentioned what is meant by Haya ala Khair Al Amal.

Bro Haya Ala Khair il Amal is indeed referring to Ahlebait (عليه السلام), and we say it in Adhan as imams (عليه السلام) said.

We cannot just deduce things and keep on adding stuff by our ownselves. You can't just add third shahadah into azaan or iqamah just because Haya Ala Khair il Amal refers to Ahlebait (عليه السلام). One might say then add 14 x 2 28 testimonies into adhan or iqamah since haya ala khair il amal refers to Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Moreover, ahlebait (عليه السلام) knew it yet never added third testimony to adhan.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Bro Haya Ala Khair il Amal is indeed referring to Ahlebait (عليه السلام), and we say it in Adhan as imams (عليه السلام) said.

We cannot just deduce things and keep on adding stuff by our ownselves. You can't just add third shahadah into azaan or iqamah just because Haya Ala Khair il Amal refers to Ahlebait (عليه السلام). One might say then add 14 x 2 28 testimonies into adhan or iqamah since haya ala khair il amal refers to Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Moreover, ahlebait (عليه السلام) knew it yet never added third testimony to adhan.

Well bro, I do not think that Maraajas are unaware of that what you say yet today our Adhan is recited with third shahadah. As already said, no one is adding anything new except what is being said in Adhan or Iqamah. Further more, because Adhan or Iqamah had to be short, it is sufficient to say up to third shahadah to represent all Ahlebait (عليه السلام). So, I don't see any problem in it.

[Lion of Shia]

9 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think you should explain what you exactly meant by violating the third shahadah.

If according to you, it means person denies the Imamah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), no longer considers him the best after Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), then he's not a shia obviously.

However, if you mean it like indo-pak zakirs claim that even if person believes in Imamah but does not recite third shahadah, then there's no issue. Its not a violation nor it affects the person's status as a shia.

i ment like joining another sect like sufi, but coming back to Shia, asking if that person can still be shia,and still get salvation.

[Abu_Zahra]

19 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well, I said as to how it appears. A person who doesn't recite it is always thought to be a belonging to another maktab so why should one restrict himself from that while there is no harm in it.

Because they choose to recite the adhan and iqamah in the same way as the aimmah (عليه السلام)

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

i ment like joining another sect like sufi, but coming back to Shia, asking if that person can still be shia,and still get salvation.

Salam , yeah anytime when a person will come back to Shia so then that person will be the Shia & still will get salvation ; inshAllah.

Edited November 5 by Ashvazdanghe

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well bro, I do not think that Maraajas are unaware of that what you say yet today our Adhan is recited with third shahadah

Yes obviously.

There's a general permissibility of kalam (saying something) during Adhan as it doesn't invalidate it,
based upon this, Ali un wali Ullah is allowed by marjas (most of them)