Who else that the awrah ruling we have has a very confusin double standard

[Guest Daniel]

How come women have a super modest awrah/required way of dressing in front of non-mahrams, while men basically have almost no awrah and are allowed to walk in immodest ways as long as just their genitals and buttocks is covered. Because if I look at the logic behind why the women's hijab exists, why is that same logic not applied to men whatsoever, especially since a shirtless man with short shorts is not even considered modest by seccular/non-religious standards, and majority of straight women would be attracted by that. And I am obviously not saying that the male and female hijab should be the exact same, but why do men not need to be modest at all, at least with other sects of Islam they make men have an awrah of naval to knee, and Iran used to have a law where men in public could not wear a short sleeve, shorts, or sleevless top. I guess what I am trying to ask is why can men be so immodest publically but women have super strict modesty laws. And not only is complete immodesty allowed, but some people encourage it at religious events like Sineh Zani. Because I always liked what Ayatollah Sistani said and followed shia rulings, but after hearing about the Shia awrah/hijab in front of non-mahrams I am now not so sure how I feel about him, since the reasoning behind the female hijab is not used for men for some reason.(This is coming from a man who dresses modestly even in the heat by the way).

[Dreamcatcher]

10 hours ago, Guest Daniel said:

How come women have a super modest awrah/required way of dressing in front of non-mahrams, while men basically have almost no awrah and are allowed to walk in immodest ways as long as just their genitals and buttocks is covered. Because if I look at the logic behind why the women's hijab exists, why is that same logic not applied to men whatsoever, especially since a shirtless man with short shorts is not even considered modest by seccular/non-religious standards, and majority of straight women would be attracted by that. And I am obviously not saying that the male and female hijab should be the exact same, but why do men not need to be modest at all, at least with other sects of Islam they make men have an awrah of naval to knee, and Iran used to have a law where men in public could not wear a short sleeve, shorts, or sleevless top. I guess what I am trying to ask is why can men be so immodest publically but women have super strict modesty laws. And not only is complete immodesty allowed, but some people encourage it at religious events like Sineh Zani. Because I always liked what Ayatollah Sistani said and followed shia rulings, but after hearing about the Shia awrah/hijab in front of non-mahrams I am now not so sure how I feel about him, since the reasoning behind the female hijab is not used for men for some reason.(This is coming from a man who dresses modestly even in the heat by the way).

You are mistaken in assuming that since men's awrah is between the knee and the navel, that gives them permission to be out in public like that? Men are not allowed to be out half naked in front of non-mahram women and even men because that obviously goes against one's haya/modesty and both genders won't feel comfortable with someone sitting like that.

The reason for the basic awrah of a woman being different from man does not need explaining? I mean it is mandated by Allah but some could argue with the natural difference between the two/scientifically about the same. There are verses of Quran and aHadith about the required hijab and it is not something Ayt. Sistani or other scholars of today came up with themselves.

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Some verses (Surah Nur should be studied - Read Tafsir al Mizan for aHadith/explanation):

Tell the faithful men to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts. That is more decent for them. Allah is indeed well aware of what they do. [24:30]

And tell the faithful women to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts, and not to display their charms, beyond what is [acceptably] visible, and let them draw their scarfs over their bosoms, and not display their charms except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slave girls, or male dependants lacking [sexual] desire, or children who are not yet conscious of female sexuality. And let them not thump their feet to make known their hidden ornaments. Rally to Allah in repentance, O faithful, so that you may be felicitous. [24:31]

As for women advanced in years who do not expect to marry, there will be no sin upon them if they put off their cloaks, without displaying their adornment. But it is better for them to be modest, and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. [24:60]

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw closely over themselves their chadors [when going out]. That makes it likely for them to be recognized and not be troubled, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. [33:59]

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Male Hijab

Islamic 'Hijab' for Men

Edited October 3, 2024 by Dreamcatcher

[Guest Daniel]

5 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

You are mistaken in assuming that since men's awrah is between the knee and the navel, that gives them permission to be out in public like that? Men are not allowed to be out half naked in front of non-mahram women and even men because that obviously goes against one's haya/modesty and both genders won't feel comfortable with someone sitting like that.

The reason for the basic awrah of a woman being different from man does not need explaining? I mean it is mandated by Allah but some could argue with the natural difference between the two/scientifically about the same. There are verses of Quran and aHadith about the required hijab and it is not something Ayt. Sistani or other scholars of today came up with themselves.

-----

Some verses (Surah Nur should be studied - Read Tafsir al Mizan for aHadith/explanation):

Tell the faithful men to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts. That is more decent for them. Allah is indeed well aware of what they do. [24:30]

And tell the faithful women to cast down their looks and to guard their private parts, and not to display their charms, beyond what is [acceptably] visible, and let them draw their scarfs over their bosoms, and not display their charms except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or their slave girls, or male dependants lacking [sexual] desire, or children who are not yet conscious of female sexuality. And let them not thump their feet to make known their hidden ornaments. Rally to Allah in repentance, O faithful, so that you may be felicitous. [24:31]

As for women advanced in years who do not expect to marry, there will be no sin upon them if they put off their cloaks, without displaying their adornment. But it is better for them to be modest, and Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing. [24:60]

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw closely over themselves their chadors [when going out]. That makes it likely for them to be recognized and not be troubled, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful. [33:59]

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Male Hijab

Islamic 'Hijab' for Men

You said that men still have haya but how come for men it is just haya but not a more modest awrah/hijab like for women? Because for women, the modesty rules they have are concrete and required. Why do men just have a haya and not a more modest hijab/awrah thats a concrete rule? Because this logic would make more sense if women had a smaller awrah then a haya on top of it, but that is not the case as they have stricter modesty laws, as opposed to men who just have a haya. Also, you say men and women are biologially different on what they find attractive, but a lot of women would find a muscular man in a tank top/without a shirt more attractive than men would find something like a neck or arm of a woman. That biological explanation you gave does not make a lot of sense.

[Dreamcatcher]

On 10/4/2024 at 2:28 AM, Guest Daniel said:

You said that men still have haya but how come for men it is just haya but not a more modest awrah/hijab like for women? Because for women, the modesty rules they have are concrete and required. Why do men just have a haya and not a more modest hijab/awrah thats a concrete rule? Because this logic would make more sense if women had a smaller awrah then a haya on top of it, but that is not the case as they have stricter modesty laws, as opposed to men who just have a haya. Also, you say men and women are biologially different on what they find attractive, but a lot of women would find a muscular man in a tank top/without a shirt more attractive than men would find something like a neck or arm of a woman. That biological explanation you gave does not make a lot of sense.

Sorry for not making sense. Hope you find some answer that satisfies you.

[celestica]

On 10/3/2024 at 1:30 AM, Guest Daniel said:

How come women have a super modest awrah/required way of dressing in front of non-mahrams, while men basically have almost no awrah and are allowed to walk in immodest ways as long as just their genitals and buttocks is covered. Because if I look at the logic behind why the women's hijab exists, why is that same logic not applied to men whatsoever, especially since a shirtless man with short shorts is not even considered modest by seccular/non-religious standards, and majority of straight women would be attracted by that. And I am obviously not saying that the male and female hijab should be the exact same, but why do men not need to be modest at all, at least with other sects of Islam they make men have an awrah of naval to knee, and Iran used to have a law where men in public could not wear a short sleeve, shorts, or sleevless top. I guess what I am trying to ask is why can men be so immodest publically but women have super strict modesty laws. And not only is complete immodesty allowed, but some people encourage it at religious events like Sineh Zani. Because I always liked what Ayatollah Sistani said and followed shia rulings, but after hearing about the Shia awrah/hijab in front of non-mahrams I am now not so sure how I feel about him, since the reasoning behind the female hijab is not used for men for some reason.(This is coming from a man who dresses modestly even in the heat by the way).

I want to first say I understand where you're coming from, and I had some of the same questions myself. The concept of awrah is fundamentally different for both genders. You asked why, considering the fact that a man who is shirtless, wearing tight clothes, and so on, can still cause lust and sin in the way a woman without hijab does. We have to recognize the definition of awrah to understand its contrast between the genders. 

”The woman is 'awrah.” 18
 And what is the meaning of 'awrah? The genitals are called 'awrah, because it is a shame to look at them; and everything which a man hides (because of pride or shame) is called 'awrah; and the women are 'awrah.”

Before anything, it is a divine command. The essence of our religion requires men and women to be separate. This is to reinforce marriage and discourage lust and adultery. When men and women are close to each other for extended periods of time, they may feel attraction or the urge to fulfill sexual desire. We are both to be held equally accountable for how we dress, speak, and act in public. However, that doesn't mean the degree of 'hijab' needs to be the same or similar. 

The responsibilities of men and women are distinct from each other. There is a preferred nature that can be observed if you study the teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). It is better for a woman to be in her home. It is better for her to not be seen or heard. Despite the fact that it is not a sin for her to leave her house, she maximizes her good deeds when she is there. A man, however, is responsible for being the head of his household and their livelihood. Men leave their homes daily to come by their rizq, providing for their families. Naturally, their awrah is going to be less restrictive, as it's wajib for them to do this. Working to make money includes interacting with other people outside of their homes. In our society, where it's commonplace that women leave their houses, we forget that it's not only favored but objectively superior for her to remain unseen and as modest as she can be. 

'Ali ((عليه السلام).) said: “Once the Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) asked his companions about woman what she was. They said: “She is awrah (a thing to hide).” He said: “At what time does she come nearest to her Lord?” They did not know. When Fatimah ((عليه السلام)) heard (the question), she said: “She becomes nearest to her Lord when she adheres to the innermost part of her house.” The Messenger of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) said: “I bear witness that you are a part of me.” 31

Once the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) asked her: “What is the best for a woman?” She replied: “That she does not see a man and no man sees her.” The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) said: “Offspring, one from the other.” 30
 

I can also provide a bit of a practical perspective, but it is obviously not going to be the one and only explanation for the different degrees of awrah.

Men and women react to visual stimuli differently. Male arousal is more visually driven, with heightened responses to visual cues. Yes, even women's hair, arms, etc. It may not seem like a sexual thing, but men are wired to react to visual triggers, even the more subtle or innocuous ones. Female arousal is more contextual. Women definitely experience attraction to men visually, like you mentioned, which is why we still have to cast our gaze, but not intensely visual as men's. Many scholars give rulings that require men to cover more than their awrah out of precaution, because of the reasoning you mentioned.

The Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are our greatest role models, also known for their modest clothing choices. From al-Ghazali in al-Ihya’: "The Holy Prophet (S) used to wear whatever was at hand, from a waist-wrap or a cloak, a long shirt or an upper gown with full sleeves or any other garment."