What is western culture?

[Botak]

I was reading through the practical law of Islam by Ayatollah Khamenei, and one of the ruling stated that 

 

Q1370. What is the view on wearing a necktie?

A: Generally speaking, it is not permissible to wear a tie, or other kinds of clothes that are considered as the attire of non-Muslims, in such a way that their wearing will promote vile Western culture.

 

 

I was shocked, since I live in Indonesia, and not only neckties are common, its even mandatory in some school. So I put up a question in leader.ir/en and got this answer

Is wearing a tie haram? I have heard before that its haram due to promoting western culture but in my country it is quite normal and students have a mandatory rule to wear a tie for some days.

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Unless it promotes western culture, it is no problem.

 

With prayers for your success

 

Phew, crisis averted! Though that got me thinking, what exactly is western culture here? So I asked again

 

What count as western culture pr mimicking western culture? Is wearing cloth with western football team logo plastered in it count as spreading western culture? What about selling literature from the west such as sherlock holmes or harry potter?

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

It rests with you to determine the cases of a rule.

 

With prayers for your success

 

 

....what

Ok so, basically I am the one who determine the rule? Well I mean that makes me kinda screwed. I feels like every book from the west is western culture, so there goes my novels. I also feels like burgers is western culture, so there goes subway sandwich. I also feels like emoji, memes, or youngster gen alpha/gen z jokes come from the west and is western culture, so there is that. Oh yeah I guess steak is western culture to. There are also classical music (non lahw) and heck, english could count as western culture.

 

What do i do?

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:55 AM, Botak said:

Ok so, basically I am the one who determine the rule? Well I mean that makes me kinda screwed. I feels like every book from the west is western culture, so there goes my novels. I also feels like burgers is western culture, so there goes subway sandwich. I also feels like emoji, memes, or youngster gen alpha/gen z jokes come from the west and is western culture, so there is that. Oh yeah I guess steak is western culture to. There are also classical music (non lahw) and heck, english could count as western culture.

 

When Ayotullah Khamenei speaks of Western Culture, he speaks of those values which have wrong meaning and harmful effects on Muslim lives not the good things such as Science and Technology or harmless things.

[Botak]

5 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

When Ayotullah Khameni speaks of Western Culture, he speaks of those values which have wrong meaning and harmful effects on Muslim lives not the good things such as Science and Technology or harmless things.

Western hairstyle doesnt sound harmful, nor clothing, (there goes my fabtasy of wearing a 19th century british suit, those looks cool)

[Borntowitnesstruth]

1 hour ago, Botak said:

Western hairstyle doesnt sound harmful, nor clothing, (there goes my fabtasy of wearing a 19th century british suit, those looks cool)

Some of the hairstyles and clothing have wrongful cultural and ideological meanings attached to them. Such as you might have seen Mowhawk hairstyle, it is mostly used by gangsters and one story of wearing necktie was that it was for the purpose of repenting for killing Jesus Christ. So, it is for this that certain things are discouraged by Ayotullahs.

[JannahLM]

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Some of the hairstyles and clothing have wrongful culturosand ideological meanings attached to them. Such as you might have seen Mowhawk hairstyle, it is mostly used by gangsters and one story of wearing necktie was that it was for the purpose of repenting for killing Jesus Christ. So, it is for this that certain things are discouraged by Ayotullahs.

Mohawks are not a gangster hairstyle. It's a punk hairstyle, essentially those that are anti-establishment.

[Azadeh307]

Western values by themelves are not bad, the way they are prioritized and stack ranked however can cause social problems. For example, the Western value of independence is not bad in and of itself, only when it is prioritized over other values such as God' Will, family, integrity, dignity, etc do things start to unravel. 

[Azadeh307]

Just now, Azadeh307 said:

Western values by themelves are not bad, the way they are prioritized and stack ranked however can cause social problems. For example, the Western value of independence is not bad in and of itself, only when it is prioritized over other values such as God' Will, family, integrity, dignity, etc do things start to unravel. Islam does not cancel out other cultures, rather it adds to and enhances them.

 

[Botak]

5 hours ago, Azadeh307 said:

Western values by themelves are not bad, the way they are prioritized and stack ranked however can cause social problems. For example, the Western value of independence is not bad in and of itself, only when it is prioritized over other values such as God' Will, family, integrity, dignity, etc do things start to unravel. 

 

10 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Some of the hairstyles and clothing have wrongful cultural and ideological meanings attached to them. Such as you might have seen Mowhawk hairstyle, it is mostly used by gangsters and one story of wearing necktie was that it was for the purpose of repenting for killing Jesus Christ. So, it is for this that certain things are discouraged by Ayotullahs.

What about neckties?

[Azadeh307]

43 minutes ago, Botak said:

What about neckties?

I don’t like neckties; they are symbolic of slavery (a noose around the neck).

[notme]

A necktie is the modern version of the ruffles that men used to wear on the front of their shirts, so that the shirt wouldn't have to be washed as frequently.  It's more comparable to a baby's bib than to a noose. 

[notme]

11 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Mowhawk hairstyle

It's actually based on an ancient Native American hairstyle, though nowadays most folks you see with it are punks and rebels against "western lifestyle", whatever that means.  

[notme]

Western culture would be, for example, capitalism.  

 

Edit: or communism, or socialism, or feudalism, or any of those materialist ways of assigning value to objects and people.  So basically, materialism. 

Edited October 1, 2024 by notme

[Botak]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Western culture would be, for example, capitalism.  

I thought capitalism just means the free market?

[Azadeh307]

2 hours ago, notme said:

A necktie is the modern version of the ruffles that men used to wear on the front of their shirts, so that the shirt wouldn't have to be washed as frequently.  It's more comparable to a baby's bib than to a noose. 

You could be right. I heard about the necktie / noose comparison from a couple sources but it may be an unfounded conspiracy.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

3 hours ago, Botak said:

I thought capitalism just means the free market?

Capitalism means that the economy is mostly under the influence of private Businesses and Communism means that businesses are mostly run by government agencies.

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Capitalism means that the economy is mostly under the influence of private Businesses and Communism means that businesses are mostly run by government agencies.

Salam respectfully it's just too general definition which Capitalism can be run by government agencies too which private business can be a part of it while communism also can use private business as disguise likewise China which there is many so called private businesses which has been backed by it's communist party for having better trade with Capitalist world which America as symbol of capitalism  in similar fashion of communist China runs fake private business indirectly likewise a spider's web  by government through Senators even Putos & their financial supporters under guise of shareholding & etc by them .

 

Edited October 1, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[Botak]

5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Communism means that businesses are mostly run by government agencies.

Wait, mostly? I thought communism are All government, no private enterprise

[Borntowitnesstruth]

3 hours ago, Botak said:

Wait, mostly? I thought communism are All government, no private enterprise

Like @Ashvazdanghe said some businesses can be disguised as private so there are variations of communism.

[Shiajuice]

There is a good reason to reject so-called "Western values" and Western cultures wherever possible. In the West and specifically in the US—which is the direct experience I can relate from—supposed universal norms of decency and morality have been utterly abandoned. The West is Godless and people make all their most animalistic and disgusting desires their gods. Sin is normalized and encouraged; zina is widespread and begins at an early age; greed and cheating are rewarded qualities; drugs are easily accessible, mostly legal, and socially acceptable. If one goes to a college campus or any major metropolitan city, they will see most women almost naked in ways that would have been taboo here even a few decades ago, public drug use of alcohol and cannabis, and a complete wholesale disregard to the soul and the Day of Resurrection. Men and women by the end of their 20s may normally have had hundreds of sexual encounters. Homosexuality and other sexual perversities are common. It goes without saying that "secular" marriage and family are almost dead here.

 

To be a Muslim is to suffer alone among non-believers in a hedonistic society where haram is easy and halal is difficult. If you are Shia especially, do not be surprised to find yourself the only one among equally stupid and brainwashed Salafis. Many times have I had people see my mohr and move to the other side of masjid during the namaz jummah. However, this might not be the same experience for the Shia living in a place like Dearborn, Michigan for example. To be a Christian here carries a public perception equal to believing in literal ferry tales and in terms of real faith is almost meaningless. Men and women will wear the sign of the cross and sin openly and obscenely. The self-identified Christian might even hate Muslims but will not be able to tell the first thing about their faith. Atheism is dominant and growing. The West is the embodiment of Satan and is filled with a corruption and evil that all of you will be familiar from the story of the prophet Lot. The government is no different. Justice is non-existent: gang violence, murder, and pedophilia are rampant; there is an open and flagrant conspiracy among politicians and the most rich to hoard wealth, traffic children as sex slaves, and engage in war and genocide for profit; voting is pointless and the "leaders" of the West are idiotic clowns.

 

For the person that fears Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the Day, I swear to you that the West is a cancer that consumes the believing men and women of this world. If it does not kill them, it will try and often succeed to take away their language, culture, and faith away to multiply disbelief and greed. Do not be surprised if the 1st generation cannot read or even speak Farsi or Arabic; do not be surprised if they take off their hijabs, take boyfriends and girlfriends, and reject Islam silently in their actions; do not be surprised if the Quran, fasting, and salah are abandoned; do not be surprised if the the names of the Holy Prophet (S) and his Progeny (عليه السلام) are forgotten; do not be surprised if not a tear is shed for the Tragedy of Karbala.

[notme]

22 hours ago, Botak said:

I thought capitalism just means the free market?

No. Markets have existed at least as long as civilization. Capitalism was invented after feudalism fell in Europe in the 14th century.

[Gaza313]

On 9/30/2024 at 11:55 AM, Botak said:

I was reading through the practical law of Islam by Ayatollah Khamenei, and one of the ruling stated that 

 

Q1370. What is the view on wearing a necktie?

A: Generally speaking, it is not permissible to wear a tie, or other kinds of clothes that are considered as the attire of non-Muslims, in such a way that their wearing will promote vile Western culture.

 

 

I was shocked, since I live in Indonesia, and not only neckties are common, its even mandatory in some school. So I put up a question in leader.ir/en and got this answer

Is wearing a tie haram? I have heard before that its haram due to promoting western culture but in my country it is quite normal and students have a mandatory rule to wear a tie for some days.

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Unless it promotes western culture, it is no problem.

 

With prayers for your success

 

Phew, crisis averted! Though that got me thinking, what exactly is western culture here? So I asked again

 

What count as western culture pr mimicking western culture? Is wearing cloth with western football team logo plastered in it count as spreading western culture? What about selling literature from the west such as sherlock holmes or harry potter?

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

It rests with you to determine the cases of a rule.

 

With prayers for your success

 

 

....what

Ok so, basically I am the one who determine the rule? Well I mean that makes me kinda screwed. I feels like every book from the west is western culture, so there goes my novels. I also feels like burgers is western culture, so there goes subway sandwich. I also feels like emoji, memes, or youngster gen alpha/gen z jokes come from the west and is western culture, so there is that. Oh yeah I guess steak is western culture to. There are also classical music (non lahw) and heck, english could count as western culture.

 

What do i do?

If some schools in Indonesia make it mandatory to wear neckties, we should ask them: what is the reason behind this? The idea that wearing a necktie (in whichever knot style) makes a person appear cool is itself a concept of colonial mindset imposed by Western societies. Indonesians, historically, never wore neckties before the influence of their Dutch colonial masters.

[Gaza313]

On 9/30/2024 at 11:55 AM, Botak said:

I was reading through the practical law of Islam by Ayatollah Khamenei, and one of the ruling stated that 

 

Q1370. What is the view on wearing a necktie?

A: Generally speaking, it is not permissible to wear a tie, or other kinds of clothes that are considered as the attire of non-Muslims, in such a way that their wearing will promote vile Western culture.

 

 

I was shocked, since I live in Indonesia, and not only neckties are common, its even mandatory in some school. So I put up a question in leader.ir/en and got this answer

Is wearing a tie haram? I have heard before that its haram due to promoting western culture but in my country it is quite normal and students have a mandatory rule to wear a tie for some days.

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Unless it promotes western culture, it is no problem.

 

With prayers for your success

 

Phew, crisis averted! Though that got me thinking, what exactly is western culture here? So I asked again

 

What count as western culture pr mimicking western culture? Is wearing cloth with western football team logo plastered in it count as spreading western culture? What about selling literature from the west such as sherlock holmes or harry potter?

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

It rests with you to determine the cases of a rule.

 

With prayers for your success

 

 

....what

Ok so, basically I am the one who determine the rule? Well I mean that makes me kinda screwed. I feels like every book from the west is western culture, so there goes my novels. I also feels like burgers is western culture, so there goes subway sandwich. I also feels like emoji, memes, or youngster gen alpha/gen z jokes come from the west and is western culture, so there is that. Oh yeah I guess steak is western culture to. There are also classical music (non lahw) and heck, english could count as western culture.

 

What do i do?

Absolutely, paying money for copyrights then publishing it in a non native language (english, french, dutch) then selling it to locals making them believe that its cool to read this literature is precisely called promoting a specific culture.  

[Gaza313]

On 9/30/2024 at 11:55 AM, Botak said:

I was reading through the practical law of Islam by Ayatollah Khamenei, and one of the ruling stated that 

 

Q1370. What is the view on wearing a necktie?

A: Generally speaking, it is not permissible to wear a tie, or other kinds of clothes that are considered as the attire of non-Muslims, in such a way that their wearing will promote vile Western culture.

 

 

I was shocked, since I live in Indonesia, and not only neckties are common, its even mandatory in some school. So I put up a question in leader.ir/en and got this answer

Is wearing a tie haram? I have heard before that its haram due to promoting western culture but in my country it is quite normal and students have a mandatory rule to wear a tie for some days.

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

Unless it promotes western culture, it is no problem.

 

With prayers for your success

 

Phew, crisis averted! Though that got me thinking, what exactly is western culture here? So I asked again

 

What count as western culture pr mimicking western culture? Is wearing cloth with western football team logo plastered in it count as spreading western culture? What about selling literature from the west such as sherlock holmes or harry potter?

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

It rests with you to determine the cases of a rule.

 

With prayers for your success

 

 

....what

Ok so, basically I am the one who determine the rule? Well I mean that makes me kinda screwed. I feels like every book from the west is western culture, so there goes my novels. I also feels like burgers is western culture, so there goes subway sandwich. I also feels like emoji, memes, or youngster gen alpha/gen z jokes come from the west and is western culture, so there is that. Oh yeah I guess steak is western culture to. There are also classical music (non lahw) and heck, english could count as western culture.

 

What do i do?

Burgers and Fast food is definitely a western culture that undermines the sanctity of food consumption and promotes overindulgence in eating in such a way that is detrimental both hygienically and mentally. 

[Botak]

1 hour ago, Gaza313 said:

If some schools in Indonesia make it mandatory to wear neckties, we should ask them: what is the reason behind this? The idea that wearing a necktie (in whichever knot style) makes a person appear cool is itself a concept of colonial mindset imposed by Western societies. Indonesians, historically, never wore neckties before the influence of their Dutch colonial masters.

Hey at that rate you might aswell ban train, there was no train until the dutch came along. 

[Botak]

1 hour ago, Gaza313 said:

Absolutely, paying money for copyrights then publishing it in a non native language (english, french, dutch) then selling it to locals making them believe that its cool to read this literature is precisely called promoting a specific culture.  

I mean, if its actually cool?

[Botak]

1 hour ago, Gaza313 said:

Burgers and Fast food is definitely a western culture that undermines the sanctity of food consumption and promotes overindulgence in eating in such a way that is detrimental both hygienically and mentally. 

With how expensive fast food in indonesia is i dont think it promote overindulgence I am gonna be honest with you

Also, so no fast food even without western food because fast food are "western culture"? Great (sarcasm)

[Botak]

Idk if anyone is still here but, i ask another question

[Botak]

I dont understand the answer tbh, especially the last part. What does varies according to different countries times and persons mean?

Also it doesnt answer if varbecue or lunar red envelope is haram or nah :/

[Gaza313]

2 hours ago, Botak said:

Hey at that rate you might aswell ban train, there was no train until the dutch came along. 

Using someone's technology/product and trying to look like someone are two different things.  The former is due to a physical limitation, while the latter stems from thoughts.

[Gaza313]

2 hours ago, Botak said:

With how expensive fast food in indonesia is i dont think it promote overindulgence I am gonna be honest with you

Also, so no fast food even without western food because fast food are "western culture"? Great (sarcasm)

This is precisely the issue: lower quality, unhygienic, and unhealthy food is sold at much higher prices just to fill the pockets of western corporations.  All in the name of coolness and modernity. 

 

2 hours ago, Botak said:

I mean, if its actually cool?

Its not! my friend.

[notme]

Most "westerners" rarely wear a tie.

Fast food is not "culture", it is capitalism: using advertising to get people to pay more for less, thus impoverishing most while enriching a few. One might be able to claim that advertising is "western culture". It existed forever, but really became prevalent after the invention of the printing press. Perhaps watching or reading advertising is against Islam.

[Gaza313]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Most "westerners" rarely wear a tie.

Fast food is not "culture", it is capitalism: using advertising to get people to pay more for less, thus impoverishing most while enriching a few. One might be able to claim that advertising is "western culture". It existed forever, but really became prevalent after the invention of the printing press. Perhaps watching or reading advertising is against Islam.

Informally they don’t, however, any formal meeting/event/gathering a necktie/bowtie is a must all across western societies and their colonies.  And this is precisely the question that why this piece of cloth is so important to make a clear distinction between formal and informal? 

[Botak]

6 hours ago, Gaza313 said:

Its not! my friend.

The thirty nine steps were kinda cool and I will stand at this hill (i will not die in this hill, but I will stand on it)

[Botak]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Perhaps watching or reading advertising is against Islam.

So many things could be haram.

If the chinese, japanese or local folk culture also count as haram because they are unislamic that would be... yeah I dont want to imagine that

[notme]

1 hour ago, Gaza313 said:

why this piece of cloth is so important to make a clear distinction between formal and informal? 

Same reason as women wearing pointy shoes that are not even shaped like feet for formal occasions - traditions for formal events are much slower to change than day to day practices. In fifty or a hundred years, the only "westerners" wearing neckties are going to be antique fashion cosplayers. Ties might be a part of "western fashion" but so are khakis, polo shirts, sneakers, and even prairie dresses with bonnets.

 

25 minutes ago, Botak said:

If the chinese, japanese or local folk culture also count as haram because they are unislamic that would be... yeah I dont want to imagine that

If it contradicts Islam, it is probably haram. If it is neutral, it probably is not, depending on your intention, but check with your marja - I'm definitely not a scholar.

Edited October 5, 2024 by notme