The working women, an Islamic Perspective

[Abu Nur]

On 9/15/2024 at 4:50 PM, root said:

This whole are woman equal to men issue is so stupid it makes me puke. Equal in what? It's like saying Red blood cells are worth more that white blood cells. They are two different things with different structure and different jobs. We die without either one, so in terms of worth, they are equal, in other issues they are not.

They were never equal before till rich capitalist people decided that we can use womans to gain more money and to keep them work and not stay at home. I believe western society went to moral corrupt because of this where equality was innovated to keep both of them balance. What make this puke is that their definition of equality depends on materialism, while God equality is always the Real that everyone is spiritually equal by piety. It is because of this spiritual equality makes the belivers very valuable and causing them distinct is harmful. While in materialism uniting them with equality is harmful.

 

[Moderator's Note This was split from the original topic 

]

Edited September 22 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Hadi]

9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

They were never equal before till rich capitalist people decided that we can use womans to gain more money and to keep them work and not stay at home. I believe western society went to moral corrupt because of this where equality was innovated to keep both of them balance. What make this puke is that their definition of equality depends on materialism, while God equality is always the Real that everyone is spiritually equal by piety. It is because of this spiritual equality makes the belivers very valuable and causing them distinct is harmful. While in materialism uniting them with equality is harmful.

This happened in the US after WWII. Before this, in the US almost no women worked outside the home. If they had a farm, they would do farming with their husbands. Also, women were teachers (for younger children) and nurses before this. During WWII, women went to the factory to work out of necessity, because the men were at war overseas and the factories needed to keep running to produce armaments for the war. After WWII, the big corporations realized that they could make more money by doing things to keep women working, like promoting feminism. If there are two incomes, people can buy more stuff and corporations (who sell the stuff) can become more profitable. What they didn't realize is that by keeping women working, there was noone to raise the children and take care of the house, so the family fell apart. Once the family falls apart, the society falls apart and disintegrates which is what is happening in the West and the process continues to this day and becomes more and more severe. 

Edited September 20 by Abu Hadi

[mahmood8726]

5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

This happened in the US after WWII. Before this, in the US almost no women worked outside the home. If they had a farm, they would do farming with their husbands. Also, women were teachers (for younger children) and nurses before this. During WWII, women went to the factory to work out of necessity, because the men were at war overseas and the factories needed to keep running to produce armaments for the war. After WWII, the big corporations realized that they could make more money by doing things to keep women working, like promoting feminism. If there are two incomes, people can buy more stuff and corporations (who sell the stuff) can become more profitable. What they didn't realize is that by keeping women working, there was noone to raise the children and take care of the house, so the family fell apart. Once the family falls apart, the society falls apart and disintegrates which is what is happening in the West and the process continues to this day and becomes more and more severe. 

It's Ironically where the phrase "you don't want half of the workforce in your economy?", which femenists who usually hate corporations quote a lot, even though that statement is pro corporation, it originated from them. 

 

What's even more ironic, is having another half in the economy, raised the price of things, forcing this cycle of having both the Husbands and wives working 40h a week and be too exhausted to take care of their children. This is by design. 

[Abu Hadi]

3 hours ago, Hussein999 said:

It's Ironically where the phrase "you don't want half of the workforce in your economy?", which femenists who usually hate corporations quote a lot, even though that statement is pro corporation, it originated from them. 

 

What's even more ironic, is having another half in the economy, raised the price of things, forcing this cycle of having both the Husbands and wives working 40h a week and be too exhausted to take care of their children. This is by design. 

Right, one of the things it did is increase the number of the workforce without significantly increasing the amoung of jobs. It increased labor supply without increasing the demand for labor. It's the basic supply and demand curve. As supply goes up and demand doesn't also go up, prices / wages go down. This is what happened in the late 60s (when women entered the workforce in large amounts) up until today. Inflation goes up because people are buying more things (two incomes) so demand goes up for that but wages don't go up with that demand because there is an oversupply of workers in many industries, except the highly skilled labor, like doctors. So we have what we have now, which is increasing prices but not increasing wages. In addition, everyone thinks they have to be a doctor or an engineer to live a decent life (some of that is real and some is exaggerated) whereas my grandfather supported 4 children, never went to college, had a nice house with a pool, a car, lived in a nice neighborhood (in California, lol) and his wife, my grandmother never worked outside the home. He worked in construction (He was a carpenter). Try doing that today, it's pretty much impossible and especially impossible (if that term actually makes sense to people, lol) in California, where I grew up. That makes me extremely sad and homesick at the same time. 

This is to the benefit of big corporations only, because with being able to charge more but not having to pay their workers more, they make huge profits which is why you see the stock markets keep going up despite there being an economic crisis. The big corporations don't put their profits back into the economy but hide them in offshore bank accounts and hire accountants to oviscapte how much money they are making (i.e. the Panama papers). This should be obvious to everyone by now. Corporations and big businesses work for their own interests and not for the interests of the people. This is not just happening in the US but all over the world. 

This is why I keep saying that, at least Muslims, shouldn't spend their money buying Coke and Pepsi, KFC, McDonalds, Armani, Maybelline cosmetics, etc. They should buy local brands, at least do that. Besides helping the people of Gaza you will also be helping Muslims in general and the people of the world in general by not exacerbating the problem which already exists. 

 

If a large number of women decided to stay home (this would have to happen all at once), and most women want to stay home anyway, you would immediately see wages go up. Prices might not come down immediately but they would over time. The problem would be in the short term, i.e. how do I pay my bills for this month and next month, and that's usually all most people think about. 

 

Edited September 20 by Abu Hadi

[notme]

5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

most women want to stay home anyway

Certainly many women only work because they feel that they must, but I'm not at all convinced that most women want to stay home.  

I don't work because I must.  My husband supports us.  I work because I want to and because I think it's better for my family for them to rely on me less and develop a few basic life skills.  

[mahmood8726]

21 minutes ago, notme said:

Certainly many women only work because they feel that they must, but I'm not at all convinced that most women want to stay home.  

I don't work because I must.  My husband supports us.  I work because I want to and because I think it's better for my family for them to rely on me less and develop a few basic life skills.  

You don't, but statistically, even in this society where femenism is thought, it was found that half or more than half of women don't want to work. Even in western societies where they are told it is their obligation and duty to work in order to be a good citizen.

[Dreamcatcher]

14 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Right, one of the things it did is increase the number of the workforce without significantly increasing the amoung of jobs. It increased labor supply without increasing the demand for labor. It's the basic supply and demand curve. As supply goes up and demand doesn't also go up, prices / wages go down. This is what happened in the late 60s (when women entered the workforce in large amounts) up until today. Inflation goes up because people are buying more things (two incomes) so demand goes up for that but wages don't go up with that demand because there is an oversupply of workers in many industries, except the highly skilled labor, like doctors. So we have what we have now, which is increasing prices but not increasing wages. In addition, everyone thinks they have to be a doctor or an engineer to live a decent life (some of that is real and some is exaggerated) whereas my grandfather supported 4 children, never went to college, had a nice house with a pool, a car, lived in a nice neighborhood (in California, lol) and his wife, my grandmother never worked outside the home. He worked in construction (He was a carpenter). Try doing that today, it's pretty much impossible and especially impossible (if that term actually makes sense to people, lol) in California, where I grew up. That makes me extremely sad and homesick at the same time. 

This is to the benefit of big corporations only, because with being able to charge more but not having to pay their workers more, they make huge profits which is why you see the stock markets keep going up despite there being an economic crisis. The big corporations don't put their profits back into the economy but hide them in offshore bank accounts and hire accountants to oviscapte how much money they are making (i.e. the Panama papers). This should be obvious to everyone by now. Corporations and big businesses work for their own interests and not for the interests of the people. This is not just happening in the US but all over the world. 

This is why I keep saying that, at least Muslims, shouldn't spend their money buying Coke and Pepsi, KFC, McDonalds, Armani, Maybelline cosmetics, etc. They should buy local brands, at least do that. Besides helping the people of Gaza you will also be helping Muslims in general and the people of the world in general by not exacerbating the problem which already exists. 

What was the population difference between genders back then? Current stats indicate 50-50 population overall.

14 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

If a large number of women decided to stay home (this would have to happen all at once), and most women want to stay home anyway, you would immediately see wages go up. Prices might not come down immediately but they would over time. The problem would be in the short term, i.e. how do I pay my bills for this month and next month, and that's usually all most people think about.

Well, statistics for the US indicate the following* (Aug 24)
(All numbers are in thousands)

Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force: 88,950
Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,875
Total men above 16 who are not in labor force: 42,127
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force: 79,599
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,240
Total women above 16 who are not in labor force: 58,179

* pardon any mistakes in the maths
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now assuming all the 82,839 women who are employed or jobless decided today to go home today and never come back. That fills the 3,875 men who are looking for jobs but as things stand, who is going to fill the 82,839 positions that just opened OR this is just the increased labor supply that is causing the low wages?

Edited September 21 by Dreamcatcher
Maths :D

[mahmood8726]

3 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

What was the population difference between genders back then? Current stats indicate 50-50 population overall.

Well, statistics for the US indicate the following* (Aug 24)
(All numbers are in thousands)

Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force: 88,950
Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,875
Total men above 16 who are not in labor force: 42,127
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force: 79,599
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,240
Total women above 16 who are not in labor force: 58,179

* pardon any mistakes in the maths
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now assuming all the 82,839 women who are employed or jobless decided today to go home today and never come back. That fills the 3,875 men who are looking for jobs but as things stand, who is going to fill the 82,839 positions that just opened OR this is just the increased labor supply that is causing the low wages?

Obviously if all of them quit suddenly it would cause problems within the economy, especially the important jobs some women work in like nursing, school teachers, etc... 

The rest of the jobs, most of them are human sciences jobs, not much of any use. I even remeber in Iceland, all women stopped working as a form of symbolic demonstration and the economy ran fine, bosses even had way less complaints. 

 

As for your question, many of these jobs aren't necessary and I assume it would have to be done gradually, anything sudden like this is not a good idea. I assume if more work is needed, automation and robots might be highly beneficial. Essentially this could work, but it would have to be done gradually. 

 

An ideal world would be an economy with mostly men, some robots and with women working out of their free will and not being forced by social pressure and femenism as a "responsibility" thing.

Edited September 21 by Hussein999

[Dreamcatcher]

35 minutes ago, Hussein999 said:

Obviously if all of them quit suddenly it would cause problems within the economy, especially the important jobs some women work in like nursing, school teachers, etc... 

The rest of the jobs, most of them are human sciences jobs, not much of any use. I even remeber in Iceland, all women stopped working as a form of symbolic demonstration and the economy ran fine, bosses even had way less complaints. 

 

As for your question, many of these jobs aren't necessary and I assume it would have to be done gradually, anything sudden like this is not a good idea. I assume if more work is needed, automation and robots might be highly beneficial. Essentially this could work, but it would have to be done gradually. 

 

An ideal world would be an economy with mostly men, some robots and with women working out of their free will and not being forced by social pressure and femenism as a "responsibility" thing.

The lengths one will go to, lol, you'd rather have automation and robots if more work is needed than hire women. Guess what. Even men will be replaced with automation and robots.

Who works under social pressure?! No one likes the pressure of earning, be it man or woman, it is sometimes done to have some food on the table for a family.

[notme]

12 hours ago, Hussein999 said:

You don't, but statistically, even in this society where femenism is thought, it was found that half or more than half of women don't want to work. Even in western societies where they are told it is their obligation and duty to work in order to be a good citizen.

Please provide source of this statistic, if you are able. Thanks.

[mahmood8726]

1 hour ago, Dreamcatcher said:

The lengths one will go to, lol, you'd rather have automation and robots if more work is needed than hire women. Guess what. Even men will be replaced with automation and robots.

No, I would rather have a society where women aren't being pressured to work 40h a week because the economy is messed up, you're putting words in my mouth here. I never said I'd rather not have women in the workforce and prefer robots, robots are just to help out in case there is a shortage and not many women are interested, that's about it. 

Robots and automation has been a thing for the last 100 years, this argument is terrible with all due respect and ignores the reality of the modern day workforce, as someone who is in this field of engineering, you're ignoring so many things.

1 hour ago, Dreamcatcher said:

Who works under social pressure?! No one likes the pressure of earning, be it man or woman, it is sometimes done to have some food on the table for a family.

A lot of people, in this society, both men and women are told it is their responsibility to provide for their family in order to be a good person. Islamically, only men should be told this, women should be allowed to work or not work. I don't know where you live, but where I am, it is seen as taboo for a woman to be a house wife, she's seen as a "doormat", as a "slave", etc... this mentality is harmful. 

Edited September 21 by Hussein999

[mahmood8726]

1 hour ago, notme said:

Please provide source of this statistic, if you are able. Thanks.

Now I won't be able to, when I can look it up, I will put it. 

[mahmood8726]

In anyways, once I have the source, I'll send it to you via messages or another thread, as we are derailing a lot from the subject here, still waiting to see if that guy is a bot or not.

[Abu Hadi]

On 9/21/2024 at 5:08 AM, Dreamcatcher said:

What was the population difference between genders back then? Current stats indicate 50-50 population overall.

Well, statistics for the US indicate the following* (Aug 24)
(All numbers are in thousands)

Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force: 88,950
Total men above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,875
Total men above 16 who are not in labor force: 42,127
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force: 79,599
Total women above 16 who currently are in labor force and need a job: 3,240
Total women above 16 who are not in labor force: 58,179

* pardon any mistakes in the maths
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now assuming all the 82,839 women who are employed or jobless decided today to go home today and never come back. That fills the 3,875 men who are looking for jobs but as things stand, who is going to fill the 82,839 positions that just opened OR this is just the increased labor supply that is causing the low wages?

That is the whole point. It would cause some disruption in the economy, short term, but because you are reducing the labor supply, that means demand for labor would go up (basic supply and demand curve) and thus wages would go up. This is just macro economics 101. 

I am not saying all women should drop out, there are some exceptions. There are some households where the women is the sole provider for the family due to the husband being disabled, etc. There are others where the women is in a job that is critical for the community (like a specialist doctor, scientist working on a particular vaccine that is needed, etc). This is a small minority though. 

For some women who say 'Well I want to work outside the house and I enjoy it', Here is my response.

A large part of this opinion is due to subtle brainwashing by the feminist society we live in, in the West and this is also making it's way East, but more gradually. The brainwashing is that you constantly hear from the media, other women, sometimes men, etc, that 'You need to be economically productive in order to be a valuable person'. In other words, the only people that have value are those who are making money. So women enjoy working, most of the time not actually the job but they enjoy the fact that they are 'validated' in other words they see themselves as valuable based on this un-Islamic and actually inhumane premise that 'You need to be productive (i.e. make money) in order to be a valuable person'. 

This concept is un Islamic because Islam says that every human being is valuable because they were created by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and empidid with the 'Ruh' or the spirit Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created. It is the 'Ruh' that gives us value as a human being, not the clay that we came from and not how 'productive' we are in making money. In addition, in Islam the most valuable people are the ones with the most taqwa (continuous awareness that they are being observed by Allah(s.w.a)). 

In Islam, we have a model for the ideal marriage and the ideal family, and that is the marriage and family of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) and Fatima Zahra((عليه السلام)). This model is as much relevant today as it was at that time, 1400 years ago. Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) designated their roles in the marriage. Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) took care of everything outside the home (working, making money, providing for the family financially, dealing with outsiders, etc) and Fatima((عليه السلام)) took care of everything inside the house (maintaining the household as a warm and inviting place, daily care for the children, etc). This is one of the reasons behind the revelation of the famous hadith of Kisa.

Yes, it is for those individuals but also for that marriage and family structure to show people that this is the ideal we should work toward, not just in terms of these individuals and their qualities but also because of this marriage and family structure and its qualities. 

The problem with this model is not the model, but the problem is that in the West the outside role (of Imam Ali) is glorified to a level which it does not deserve and the inside role (of Fatima) is being denigrated and lowered to a level which it does not deserve. In Islam, both the inside role and the outside role are of equal value and both need to be done in order to create a happy and integrated society. 

In Islam, a man works and provides for the family not because it is glamorous or fulfilling emotionally but he does it because it is his duty as the man of the family. That's it. Most men do not love their job or get fulfilled by them. Most jobs are difficult and filled with many ongoing problems and issues which cause stress and in the worst case actually humiliate the man (such as having an abusive boss, which is more common than you think). He does this because it is his jihad in this life fe sabilillah. Also I know raising and caring for children is difficult and exhausting and most women do not love it. They love their children but the process of raising children and maintaining a house is not easy. It is real work, unlike what the feminists say. They only think it is not real work because they have either never done it (i.e. they hire maids, eat out at restaurants, or they are a very sloppy housekeeper and ignore their children) or are very bad at it. This is the jihad of the women and that is why there is the famous hadith 'heaven is at the feet of the mother'. Because being a good mother and fulfilling these responsibilities is not an easy thing at all. 

The 'West' and this attitude of 'making money equals a valuable person' is toxic and we are all suffering the consequences of it now. See how elderly people are treated in the West as one example. It is an absolute crime. These men and women who have worked their whole lives to help the society are discarded in their later years by the society. They are put in facilities which are basically prisons (elder care facilities) where they are 'cared' for by minimum wage workers who are not skilled at their jobs and don't really care about them and they are abandoned by those who are supposed to care for them, ie. ther families. This is because they are not contributing economically to the society, i.e. they are not making money for anyone so they are discarded. This is one example but there are others, like the growing homeless population most of whom are mentally ill. 

So we should not look to the West when deciding which model we should follow in a marriage. We should look to Islam which already has a model that actually works for everyone, not just the young, healthy, and economically privileged. 

Also, I'm not saying Muslim couples who find themselves in the situation where they both have to work should feel bad like they are not good Muslims. Especially in this modern world where there is so much chaos going on at every level, sometimes you just have to hang on and grit your teeth and try to get thru life any way you can (that is halal of course). At the same time, as Muslims, we should at least know what the correct model for a marriage is (i.e. Ali and Fatima) and try our best to work toward that. If we never get there, then that is the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but at least we had a correct model and are working toward that, and this is what the true meaning of jihad is. 

Edited September 22 by Abu Hadi

[notme]

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

The brainwashing is that you constantly hear from the media, other women, sometimes men, etc, that 'You need to be economically productive in order to be a valuable person'. In other words, the only people that have value are those who are making money. So women enjoy working, most of the time not actually the job but they enjoy the fact that they are 'validated' in other words they see themselves as valuable based on this un-Islamic and actually inhumane premise that 'You need to be productive (i.e. make money) in order to be a valuable person'. 

Thank you for this.  

Every person's value is based on the simple fact that they are a living human being created by God. You do not have to make money to have value.  

 

However, lots of people work, not because they need money, but because they can make a bigger positive impact on the world and society through work outside of their home.  I am absolutely not convinced that most women work because they need money.  I have seen no evidence of this.  Most of the women I work with - and I work with mostly women nowadays - have husbands who make enough money to support the entire family, and the wives work because they want to.  (Though, to be fair, teaching is not an ideal profession for a single parent. )

I would accept the claim that many women work because they must earn money.  To add to that, it is easier for the women who must work to find well paying work because of the existence of women who choose to work.  

[notme]

Need to add:

Women working outside of home is not new.  

Middle class and wealthy women working outside of home is new.  

[mahmood8726]

Nice, a sub has been made, thanks. 

I might join in next week to see where this discussion went. 

By the way,

@notme I sent some stat via messages before this place was made. 

 

[Abu Hadi]

1 minute ago, notme said:

Thank you for this.  

Every person's value is based on the simple fact that they are a living human being created by God. You do not have to make money to have value.  

 

However, lots of people work, not because they need money, but because they can make a bigger positive impact on the world and society through work outside of their home.  I am absolutely not convinced that most women work because they need money.  I have seen no evidence of this.  Most of the women I work with - and I work with mostly women nowadays - have husbands who make enough money to support the entire family, and the wives work because they want to.  (Though, to be fair, teaching is not an ideal profession for a single parent. )

I would accept the claim that many women work because they must earn money.  To add to that, it is easier for the women who must work to find well paying work because of the existence of women who choose to work.  

What I was trying to say is that many women work because they need the money to pay bills. That is one group. There is another group, which I think is also many, who work not because they need the money to pay bills (the husband earns enough to do this) but because either they don't feel valuable as a spouse unless they earn money or they want the money to upgrade their lifestyle and feel that upgrading their lifestyle gives them value. I am talking about this second group not the first one you were talking about 

The problem isn't them working ( so long as they fulfill their other responsibilities) or even the upgraded lifestyle,  the problem is that they feel like they need to earn money or have an upgrade lifestyle to be considered a valuable human being and member of society. The fact that they feel this way is a result of brainwashing

[notme]

42 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

the problem is that they feel like they need to earn money or have an upgrade lifestyle to be considered a valuable human being and member of society. 

I agree with this completely.  

The only part I disagree with is the claim that most women would rather be home.  

I agree that most women with infants would rather be home.

In my experience, most women who do not yet have children and most women whose children are school age or older would like to do more outside of home, whether through volunteering, self employment,  or part-time or full-time work.  

[Abu Hadi]

On 9/22/2024 at 10:17 AM, notme said:

I agree with this completely.  

The only part I disagree with is the claim that most women would rather be home.  

I agree that most women with infants would rather be home.

In my experience, most women who do not yet have children and most women whose children are school age or older would like to do more outside of home, whether through volunteering, self employment,  or part-time or full-time work.  

I'm not a woman, so I will have to defer to your expertise on this. Obviously this is not a scientific survey backed with lots of data. The evidence is based on encounters I  have had with many women who have told me this. Many more have told me this than have told me what you just said. I believe you. though. 

The most common thing I have heard from Muslim women and non Muslim women with children is that they would rather be at home. If they work, it is only because the husband doesn't earn enough money to take care of all their expenses. Some have told me that they want to work because they feel like they are not 'productive' just being at home. Again, the brainwashing. 

[JannahLM]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:33 PM, notme said:

Certainly many women only work because they feel that they must, but I'm not at all convinced that most women want to stay home.  

I don't work because I must.  My husband supports us.  I work because I want to and because I think it's better for my family for them to rely on me less and develop a few basic life skills.  

I get so bored not working. Yes, not working means more leisure time, but I hate being broke all the time.

[Dreamcatcher]

On 9/22/2024 at 6:47 AM, Abu Hadi said:

That is the whole point. It would cause some disruption in the economy, short term, but because you are reducing the labor supply, that means demand for labor would go up (basic supply and demand curve) and thus wages would go up. This is just macro economics 101. 

I am not saying all women should drop out, there are some exceptions. There are some households where the women is the sole provider for the family due to the husband being disabled, etc. There are others where the women is in a job that is critical for the community (like a specialist doctor, scientist working on a particular vaccine that is needed, etc). This is a small minority though.

And well, there won't be any disruption in the economy because more immigrants will come in to fill the gap with cheaper labor if this were to happen so its not going to do anything other than women getting out of the jobs market... 

On 9/22/2024 at 6:47 AM, Abu Hadi said:

For some women who say 'Well I want to work outside the house and I enjoy it', Here is my response.

A large part of this opinion is due to subtle brainwashing by the feminist society we live in, in the West and this is also making it's way East, but more gradually. The brainwashing is that you constantly hear from the media, other women, sometimes men, etc, that 'You need to be economically productive in order to be a valuable person'. In other words, the only people that have value are those who are making money. So women enjoy working, most of the time not actually the job but they enjoy the fact that they are 'validated' in other words they see themselves as valuable based on this un-Islamic and actually inhumane premise that 'You need to be productive (i.e. make money) in order to be a valuable person'. 

This concept is un Islamic because Islam says that every human being is valuable because they were created by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and empidid with the 'Ruh' or the spirit Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created. It is the 'Ruh' that gives us value as a human being, not the clay that we came from and not how 'productive' we are in making money. In addition, in Islam the most valuable people are the ones with the most taqwa (continuous awareness that they are being observed by Allah(s.w.a)).

Agreed. That would be the wrong reason to work. 

On 9/22/2024 at 6:47 AM, Abu Hadi said:

In Islam, we have a model for the ideal marriage and the ideal family, and that is the marriage and family of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) and Fatima Zahra((عليه السلام)). This model is as much relevant today as it was at that time, 1400 years ago. Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) designated their roles in the marriage. Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) took care of everything outside the home (working, making money, providing for the family financially, dealing with outsiders, etc) and Fatima((عليه السلام)) took care of everything inside the house (maintaining the household as a warm and inviting place, daily care for the children, etc). This is one of the reasons behind the revelation of the famous hadith of Kisa.

While the marriage of Imam Ali as and Fatima (sa) is no doubt a role model for everyone; however, what you have described here is missing some obvious points that Imam Ali as not only took care of everything outside the home, he infact helped Fatima (sa) inside the house. It also fails to mention that Syeda (sa) had a servant i.e. Fiza (رضي الله عنه) to help her and there was Qanbar (رضي الله عنه), their servant/door keeper as well.

Or that Syeda (sa) was outside the home in a battle, tending to the wounds of her father (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). Or that it was Syeda (sa) who came to defend Imam Ali (عليه السلام) at her home or that it was her who went to the ruler's court to ask back what was her right. I see a broader role.

So keeping servants/maids to work at house is not bad (even if the woman is sloppy at house chores). As far as I know, a wife cannot be forced to do the house chores in the first place? Nor are the house chores mandatory unlike the man is mandated to provide for her. Most Maraja have the fatwa of compensating her for the milk she feeds to the child even.

Also, historically, women have always worked - the poor worked for the rich, the role of working changed from houses/farms etc. to modern day jobs now.

[Abu Hadi]

Salam brother.

Yes all of that is true. The point was that a women going outside the house to earn money is not the Islamic ideal, or not something we should place as a goal. It doesn't mean it is Haram or makrooh and in some cases it might be wajib ( for example if the husband is disabled). I was speaking more on a social level. 

[Abu Nur]

On 9/22/2024 at 10:28 PM, Dreamcatcher said:

As far as I know, a wife cannot be forced to do the house chores in the first place?

One of the greatest actions a man can do to come closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to do constantly the house chores, clean the toilet and wash the feet of his wife.

Edited September 25 by Abu Nur

[gajarkahalva]

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

One of the greatest actions a man can do to come closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to do constantly the house chores, clean the toilet and wash the feet of his wife.

One of the greatest actions to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to clean the toilet? Seriously? You're going to have to give a narration to back that up or at least some kind of reference.

 

I thought the washing of the wife's feet was just a thing just for the wedding night and not a regular thing. (Nothing wrong with doing it regularly obviously)

Edited September 25 by gajarkahalva

[Abu Nur]

1 minute ago, gajarkahalva said:

One of the greatest actions to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to clean the toilet? Seriously? You're going to have to give a narration to back that up or at least some kind of reference.

Yes, I'm very serious. It is an action that no man want to do it, but it is necessary to keep your house clean, so when a man will do something people see it as low for sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is a great act. The moment you laught about it, it tells exactly that people see it as a joke, but it is not.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

One of the greatest actions a man can do to come closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is to do constantly the house chores, clean the toilet and wash the feet of his wife.

Salm it's too radical conclusion which just doing house chores is enough for a man for becoming  closer to Allah just by helping his wife in routine daily house chores which cleaning feet of his wife is a recommendation for first time that they enter to their new house which husband will spread spiled water in all corners of house for attracting blessing of Allah to their house . 

When the Prophet was also helping with the housework, one day the Messenger of  Allah  entered Ali's house and saw his daughter and son-in-law lovingly sitting next to each other and working together to grind barley into flour. The Prophet said to them: "Which one of you is more tired, so that I can sit in his/her place and do his work?" Hazrat Ali replied: "O Messenger of Allah! Your daughter Fatima is more tired." So that majesty sat next to his son-in-law and they began  grinding together. (Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 43, pp. 50 and 51)

The Prophet's advice to help with household chores Hazrat Amirul Momineen says:

"One day, the Prophet of Islam entered our house. At that time, Fatemeh was cooking next to a dish and I was cleaning the lentils for her. The Prophet said: Hear from me what I say at the command of the Lord. There is no man who helps his wife in the housework unless the reward for this work is equal to every single hair on his body and equal to a year of worship in which he fasts all his days and spends all his nights in worship have done ; Allah will give such a person a reward that He gave to His patient prophets like Hazrat Dawood, Yaqub and Jesus (عليه السلام).

Quote

Aba al-Hassan! One hour serving one's wife in housework is better than a thousand years of worship, a thousand Hajj and a thousand Umrahs, and better than the freedom of a thousand slaves in the way of Allah, and a thousand wars in the way of religion and worship, than visiting thousand sick people, and a thousand Friday prayers, and a attending thousand funerals and giving alms to the poor and  is better than donating thousand dinars to poor people , better than reciting the Torah, the Bible, Zabour (Psalams), and the Qur'an, and better than freeing a thousand captives and giving a thousand camels to the poor.

A man who serves his wife will not leave the world until he sees his good place in heaven. Aba al-Hassan! He who does not turn away and does not become arrogant in serving his wife will enter heaven without reckoning. (Bihar al-Anwar, Volume 13)

Participation of Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Fatima to do the work

*Imam Sadiq, peace be upon him, says about this: "Imam Ali used to gather firewood for the house and clean the house, and Hazrat Fatima milled flour." she kneaded it and baked bread. (Kafi, vol. 5, p. 86)

https://www.khabaronline.ir/news/316477/نمونه-ای-از-انجام-کارهای-خانه-توسط-پیامبر-و-امام-علی

 

[gajarkahalva]

14 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, I'm very serious. It is an action that no man want to do it, but it is necessary to keep your house clean, so when a man will do something people see it as low for sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is a great act. The moment you laught about it, it tells exactly that people see it as a joke, but it is not.

 

I wasn't laughing about the act itself. The toilet doesn't clean itself. Someone has to do it. Still need some kind of reference to back it up still.....

[Abu Nur]

 

40 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salm it's too radical conclusion which just doing house chores is enough

Wa Aleikum Salaam,

I never said that just doing house chores is "enough", I said helping the wife to do house chores and clean the house and toilet is a one of the greatest acts. You have also demonstrated by the narration that it is so.

[Ashvazdanghe]

59 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

and toilet is a one of the greatest acts. You have also demonstrated by the narration that it is so.

Salam it shows you have great interest about cleaning toilets while I don't have interest about it although it's necessary  ; which it doesn' need demonstration by the narrations.  

[idontknow]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:32 PM, Hussein999 said:

This is by design. 

I think the challenge is that if a country falls behind in global competition, it will fall prey to the more powerful countries. I think this kind of competition didn't exist before industrialism, because technological development played less of a role. This is also why everyone has to go through at least 12 years of schooling now. I too am worried about gender roles, but I think the issue is really quite messy, although I may have just stared myself blind at a few things and missed a bigger picture.

[Abu Hadi]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it shows you have great interest about cleaning toilets while I don't have interest about it although it's necessary  ; which it doesn' need demonstration by the narrations.  

The least favorite house chore. I would rather have a robot do it

 

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it shows you have great interest about cleaning toilets while I don't have interest about it although it's necessary  ; which it doesn' need demonstration by the narrations.  

 

22 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The least favorite house chore. I would rather have a robot do it

 

I agree but I don’t like people cleaning my dirt after I’m done. Even when I use the mall or university toilets, I make sure it’s clean.  

[notme]

17 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

helping the wife to do house chores and clean the house

Wait.  Whose house is it? Is a man helping his wife or just participating in taking care of his home, when he cleans up his own house? 

[Abu Nur]

19 minutes ago, notme said:

Wait.  Whose house is it? Is a man helping his wife or just participating in taking care of his home, when he cleans up his own house? 

Helping his wife to make sure she does not have all the house work for helself. There are Urafa who will not even let their wife to clean, so instead they clean the house and yes someone of them even clean the toilet/wc.

Edited September 26 by Abu Nur