I am a Christian, why should I become a Muslim?

[Guest Ethan]

I have looked into the evidence for both Christianity and Islam and found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

Why are you a Muslim? Why should I become a Muslim?

[notme]

I am Muslim because I read the Quran and found it to be consistent and reasonable, and therefore much more likely to be true than other religions that I have studied.  

17 hours ago, Guest Ethan said:

Why should I become a Muslim?

Clearly you shouldn't, because you said: 

17 hours ago, Guest Ethan said:

I have looked into the evidence for both Christianity and Islam and found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

While I feel certain that Islam is true, I can not dictate your beliefs.  Each of us must find our own path.  

[Guest Ahmad]

Christianity has changed over time according to humans desires. Islam has not changed especially Shia Islam. If you have any questions [moderator edit: personal info deleted.  Please use the forum to communicate] I would be glad to answer any question you may have. 

Edited September 14 by notme
Removed personal content.

[Guest ethan]

Thank you, I appreciate your peaceful and respectful tone. However, I would like to understand this point here you have raised. Is the Qur'an consistent and reasonable? This is not what I have discovered. 

Why is a doctrine of abrogation necessary if the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Surely this indicates human flaws and a lack of consistency. Furthermore, I do not think that the Qur'an is very consistent even with a theology of abrogation. 

What was man made from? A clot of congealed blood (Surah 96:2), clay (15:26), dust (3:59), nothing (19:67), sperm (16:4). 

Is wine consumption good (47:15; 83:22-25) or bad (5:90)? 

Does Allah forgive those who worship false Gods? No (4:48) or yes (4:153)? 

Furthermore, is the Qur'an reasonable? I disagree. 

Women are inferior to man (2:228), Men are in charge of women (4:34), women are innately evil and malicious (12:28, 33, 34, 50), Women's testimony is 1/2 that of a mans (2:282), Husbands have total rights over a wife's body (2:223), Women receive 1/2 the inheritance of a man (4:2). 

Kill the idolaters whenever you find them (9:5), fight the unbelievers (9:14, 29), killing an unbeliever gives a reward but killing a believer sends you to hell (4:91). 

This is a very simplistic and by no means comprehensive analysis of the Qur'an. I am also happy to look at Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

21 hours ago, Guest Ethan said:

found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

Hi, what has been your resources for comparison & reaching to compelling which you statement is too general because there is  two different viewpoints between Sunni & Shia Islam viewpoints which at least show an example of your evidence  for reaching to your compelling which we can discuss about it which for founding Shia evidences you can check https://www.al-islam.org 

Theological Differences Between Christianity and Islam

On the face of it, few notice how much Christianity and Islam are alike in basic beliefs. On the five pillars of Islamic belief: the belief in God, angels, the prophets, the sacred books, and the Day of Judgement, there is no basic disagreement. Christians also believe in all of these, although they would define the one God in three persons and take one prophet and one sacred book fewer than in Islam. But all agree on the principles. Unfortunately, the reality is not that simple. That extra book and prophet are most essential to Islam, to say nothing of the absolute unity of God, whereas the five pillars, to the Christian, miss some of the basic issues.

One of the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity is that while Islam has a basic set of beliefs in common to nearly all who claim to be Muslims, there is hardly anything that is common to all of Christianity. 

 

6. Tying the Knot

The areas of contrast between Christian and Islamic belief can be charted simply as follows.

Although Christians will balk at the thought that the death of Jesus on the cross in Christian teaching is essentially a human sacrifice, and some will deny the authority of the Church, this simple caricature of the differences between Christianity and Islam should make the Christian stop and think. It may well be that worship of one God alone, and the realization that he has direct access to God without recourse to any institutions, and free forgiveness of sin through the infinite grace of God, is what he really always thought was true and right. After all, all are born Muslim.

Image: 

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Invitation to Islam: A Survival Guide

A Christmas Gift from Muslim to Christian

 

Christian and Islamic Practice Compared

Truly those who believe in what is revealed to you, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans: whoever (of them) believe in God, and the Last Day, and do good works, for them there is their reward with their Lord, and there shall be no fear for them nor shall they grieve. (Qur’an, Suratul-Baqara, 2:62).

The purpose of this essay is to describe the similarities and differences between Christian and Islamic practice. This is useful in understanding what others consider of importance in religious life, and thus how to achieve fruitful dialogue. From an Islamic point of view praxis is in fact of more critical interest than from the Christian point of view in general. Christians, especially Protestants, are more likely to focus on belief than practice. In sharing Islam, this is one of the vital areas. To put it concretely, difficult as it may be to convince a Christian of the unity of God, it is even more difficult to influence a Christian to pray in prostration with regularity.

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/invitation-islam-survival-guide-thomas-mcelwain/theological-differences-between-christianity-and

https://www.al-islam.org/invitation-islam-survival-guide-thomas-mcelwain/christian-and-islamic-practice-compared

Islam In The Bible

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/islam-bible-thomas-mcelwain

Shi'i beliefs in the Bible

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/shii-beliefs-bible-thomas-mcelwain

Chapter 3: Ashama Ibn Abjar (Najashi) The Christian King Of Ethiopia Defends Islam

Christians Who Defended And Died For The Prophet Muhammad And His Family

Mateen Charbonneau

https://www.al-islam.org/christians-who-defended-and-died-prophet-muhammad-and-his-family-mateen-charbonneau/chapter-3-ashama

Christian Monk Who Died For Imam Husayn (A)

https://www.al-islam.org/media/christian-monk-who-died-imam-husayn

 

 

The Shi’a Origin And Faith

Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita’

https://www.al-islam.org/shia-origin-and-faith-muhammad-husayn-kashif-al-ghita

 

Who are the Shi‘a?

Inquiries About Shi'a Islam

Sayyid Moustafa Al-Qazwini

https://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/who-are-shia

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, Guest Ethan said:

found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

Dr.Thomas McElwain, an American pastor and university professor who chose the name “Ali Haider” after becoming a Muslim, tells us of Amir al-Mu’minin (peace be upon him) being mentioned in the Holy book of Christians and Jews. The two scholarly books “Islam in the Bible” and “Shi’i Beliefs in the Bible” are the result of his years of effort in the comparative study of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/invitation-islam-survival-guide-thomas-mcelwain/theological-differences-between-christianity-and

https://www.al-islam.org/invitation-islam-survival-guide-thomas-mcelwain/christian-and-islamic-practice-compared

Quote

Islam In The Bible

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/islam-bible-thomas-mcelwain

Shi'i beliefs in the Bible

Thomas McElwain

https://www.al-islam.org/shii-beliefs-bible-thomas-mcelwain

http://al-mostabserin.com/english/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/01-4-300x225.jpg

https://al-mostabserin.com/english/10532

Why is the succession of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) so important?

 

Dr. Thomas McElwain answers:

 

Why is the succession of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) so important? Was succession so important for other prophets as well?

Yes, the succession of prophets has been mentioned in previous holy books. In the fifth chapter of the book “Genesis” of the Torah, the successors of Adam to Noah (peace be upon them) are mentioned. In chapter 27 of the book “Numbers” of the Torah, verses 16 and 17, Moses (peace be upon him) prays for his successor. The succession of “Elisha” after “Elijah” is mentioned in the second book of The Kings, chapter 2, verse 15. These are just three examples that come to my mind right now and show that God has appointed successors for all prophets. The Bible does not recognize the unauthorized following of prophets and accepts obedience to prophets only through the channel of God’s appointed successors.

 

What points can be taken from the sermon of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) on the day of Ghadir?

https://al-mostabserin.com/english/10532

 

Edited September 14 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

Addendum users likeiwise @Abu Hadi who has been Christian before Islam can give more detailed answers to it . 

[notme]

5 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

This is not what I have discovered. 

You raise some commonly mentioned points.  Most members of Shiachat are Shia Muslims. I recommend  you read the resources at https://www.al-islam.org/ for a Shia perspective.  For short and very informative articles, start with the "in a nutshell" series here: https://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/

 

I apologize for the inundation with information, but we can't debate you when you are asking questions that don't make sense to us.  I'm sure you'll find some great points to debate after reading a bit.  

[mahmood8726]

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Thank you, I appreciate your peaceful and respectful tone. However, I would like to understand this point here you have raised. Is the Qur'an consistent and reasonable? This is not what I have discovered. 

Why is a doctrine of abrogation necessary if the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Surely this indicates human flaws and a lack of consistency. Furthermore, I do not think that the Qur'an is very consistent even with a theology of abrogation. 

What was man made from? A clot of congealed blood (Surah 96:2)

When we were forming inside of our mother, yes we were created from a clot of congealed blood.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, clay (15:26), dust (3:59)

Adam(peace be upon him) was created from dust and clay, which in extention includes all of us who came from him. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, nothing (19:67)

We were nothing before being created, so we did come from nothing and got created from nothing.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, sperm (16:4). 

This is obvious.

 

None of these are contradictions, all of them are true. They aren't mutually exclusive. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Is wine consumption good (47:15; 83:22-25)

These verses refer to wine consumption in heaven, this by no means is relevant to this world. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

or bad (5:90)? 

Yes it's bad. The verse is explicit about it. I doubt you live in heaven, so this verse is what's relevant. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Does Allah forgive those who worship false Gods? No (4:48)

The sin of idolatry is unforgivable once the doors of repentance close (when you die). 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

or yes (4:153)? 

In this specific verse, the people forgiven were still alive, they repented for worshipping the golden calf. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Furthermore, is the Qur'an reasonable? I disagree. 

I defenetly disagree with you here.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Women are inferior to man (2:228)

This by no way says women are inferior to men, just that men and women have diffirent responsibilities and obligations. Were all equal in the eyes of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, Men are in charge of women (4:34)

I don't see how this makes islam less reasonable, every religion including Christianity dictates this too. Just because Islam is not compatible with femenism, does not make Islam false, what you should look for is if islam is the truth, is muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him) a real prophet? Is Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) real? Etc...

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, women are innately evil and malicious (12:28

It was the husband who exclaimed this...

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, 33, 34, 50),

You missed the entire point of these verses, I highly urge you to reread these verses and their tafsir, here is a what I presume a sunni tafsir of these verses that I felt explained them well: https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=12&verse=30

The verses you quoted are reffering to specific women who tried to seduce prophet Joseph(peace be upon him), including the lady of the house who madly fell in love with him. 

I am not trying to be harsh, but it seems to me, that you keep making this mistake of inattention with most of the verses you quoted. Either you didn't read any of the verses you quoted and machine gunned common verses leveled against Islam, or you read theses verses but very quickly and you jumped verses making you not understand the context. Please read all of it. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Women's testimony is 1/2 that of a mans (2:282)

I don't know why. This however does not disprove islam, as I said, you should base your acceptance of Islam on more solid reasons as stated above. There are countless forums on shiachat that have been made on this Women's testimony being half. I won't pretend like I know the reason.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, Husbands have total rights over a wife's body (2:223)

That verse does not say that, you misunderstood the soil metaphor. Husbands can't do whatever they please to their wives body, their wives are their wives, not their property where they can destroy them, etc...

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, Women receive 1/2 the inheritance of a man (4:2). 

Same as stated, however I can try rationalizing this one. Unlike women, men have and obligation to share their money with their wives. On the other hand, wives who make money from their job do not have an obligation to share their money with their Husbands. Do you see where I am going with this one? Obviously the husband is more in need for that money generally speaking. Even today most relationships have the wife expecting the man to provide, even in this hyper femenist society.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Kill the idolaters whenever you find them (9:5)

This is reffering to the Arab pagans they were fighting at the time, the muslims were at war with the arab pagans of quraish, these verses are adressing this. If you actually read the verse after it, you would realise it's not all gloomy too. 

Surah 9.6

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

, fight the unbelievers (9:14, 29), killing an unbeliever gives a reward but killing a believer sends you to hell (4:91). 

As for the rest I won't bother with it, you need to read more my friend, you're jumping verses and reading them too quickly.  If some of what I said seemed harsh, this wasn't my intention, it's just me being blunt and honest. 

18 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

This is a very simplistic and by no means comprehensive analysis of the Qur'an. I am also happy to look at Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. 

 

This is a mainly shia forum, most of us don't take sahih bukhari or sahih Muslim are reliable sources. We might take some parts of them as reliable, but not most of it and certainly not all of it, but obviously we are not mostly sunnis. There are sunnis here though so feel free to talk to them too.

 

Either way, I might get some things wrong, I am a layman. People like @Ashvazdanghe and others could feel free to correct any mistakes I made here. 

Edited September 14 by Hussein999

[Abu Nur]

19 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Why is a doctrine of abrogation necessary if the Qur'an is the word of Allah?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does not change His "way" (The Sunnah). He gave the promises and does not change them. He also stated all the principles of Religion and He does not change them.

One of the teaching of God is that God is not a Man (Numbers 23:19), but Paul Christians did change this principle.

The abrogation means here that there are rules than can change for better or equal by time, but there is no abrogation in the principles of religion, because these principles are always true. For example God is one, God is not a man or Belivers shall inherent the Garden which is a promise that God never go ageinst His promises.

[Abu Nur]

19 hours ago, Guest ethan said:

Does Allah forgive those who worship false Gods? No (4:48) or yes (4:153)? 

4:153 is in Bible too. They repented so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgave them.

[root]

Why shouldn't you?

[JannahLM]

On 9/13/2024 at 2:22 AM, Guest Ethan said:

I have looked into the evidence for both Christianity and Islam and found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

Why are you a Muslim? Why should I become a Muslim?

This is interesting as I came to the opposite conclusion. I was balanced too in my investigation as I'm from a non-religious family.

[mahmood8726]

51 minutes ago, JannahLM said:

This is interesting as I came to the opposite conclusion. I was balanced too in my investigation as I'm from a non-religious family.

I honestly don't think he payed much attention as has been pointed out in my response to him. Many of the verses he quoted, he would have immediately realized had no problems, had he actually taken the time to read them. Like the ones about prophet Joseph(عليه السلام), it's like he didn't even read them and took the word of someone else who told him they were apprently misogynistic quranic verses on women. 

Edited September 15 by Hussein999

[notme]

10 minutes ago, Hussein999 said:

apprently misogynistic quranic verses on women. 

Apparently he hasn't read the Bible either, if he finds mysogeny problematic but is ok with Christianity! 

[mahmood8726]

22 minutes ago, notme said:

Apparently he hasn't read the Bible either, if he finds mysogeny problematic but is ok with Christianity! 

I'm sure he wouldn't like the story of Adam(عليه السلام) and eve in the Bible. 

 

Certainly way diffirent than islam that says both made a mistake and doesn't blame the woman mostly like the Bible does. 

Edited September 15 by Hussein999

[root]

This whole are woman equal to men issue is so stupid it makes me puke. Equal in what? It's like saying Red blood cells are worth more that white blood cells. They are two different things with different structure and different jobs. We die without either one, so in terms of worth, they are equal, in other issues they are not.

[mahmood8726]

1 hour ago, root said:

This whole are woman equal to men issue is so stupid it makes me puke. Equal in what? It's like saying Red blood cells are worth more that white blood cells. They are two different things with different structure and different jobs. We die without either one, so in terms of worth, they are equal, in other issues they are not.

What secularists/femenists usually mean is inferior in the sense of being less valuable. This however is their fallacious way of thinking, they assume not the same rights and responsibilities = one is less valuable than the other. 

 

It makes it 1000x worse when they deem their ideology to be "universal", so anyone that questions their dogmatic ideology is deemed evil and anything other than what they beleive is Satan incarnate. It's why even if the quran disagrees with their view, they deem it as immoral and evil, even though they themselves rely on some man made ideology which assumes it is "universal". They will immediately get angry and discard islam as a potential truth. 

Edited September 15 by Hussein999

[Abu Hadi]

On 9/14/2024 at 4:14 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Addendum users likeiwise @Abu Hadi who has been Christian before Islam can give more detailed answers to it . 

This is why I waited to respond. OP is most likely a bot C/P points found in a database or data file. I highly doubt this is a real person. If 'Guest Ethan' was a real person, he would have replied to @Hussein999 's post which addressed all his 'concerns' in a categorical, definitive, and also elegant way. Mashallah. 

I don't have time to waste responding to bots. If Guest Ethan would like to come back on to discuss after the points have been addressed I would be happy to discuss. 

[Abu Hadi]

Note. The discussion concerning working women was split into another topic in General Islamic Discussions called 'The working women, an Islamic Perspective'

[Guest hashemi]

On 9/14/2024 at 6:11 AM, Guest ethan said:

Thank you, I appreciate your peaceful and respectful tone. However, I would like to understand this point here you have raised. Is the Qur'an consistent and reasonable? This is not what I have discovered. 

Why is a doctrine of abrogation necessary if the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Surely this indicates human flaws and a lack of consistency. Furthermore, I do not think that the Qur'an is very consistent even with a theology of abrogation. 

What was man made from? A clot of congealed blood (Surah 96:2), clay (15:26), dust (3:59), nothing (19:67), sperm (16:4). 

Is wine consumption good (47:15; 83:22-25) or bad (5:90)? 

Does Allah forgive those who worship false Gods? No (4:48) or yes (4:153)? 

 Furthermore, is the Qur'an reasonable? I disagree. 

Women are inferior to man (2:228), Men are in charge of women (4:34), women are innately evil and malicious (12:28, 33, 34, 50), Women's testimony is 1/2 that of a mans (2:282), Husbands have total rights over a wife's body (2:223), Women receive 1/2 the inheritance of a man (4:2). 

Kill the idolaters whenever you find them (9:5), fight the unbelievers (9:14, 29), killing an unbeliever gives a reward but killing a believer sends you to hell (4:91). 

This is a very simplistic and by no means comprehensive analysis of the Qur'an. I am also happy to look at Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. 

 

I can very easily explain all seven points for you. 

 

Your first point is your doubts about doctrine of abrogation. Abrogation, or "Naskh," is the idea that some verses in the Quran can replace or change earlier verses. This happens because the Quran was revealed over 23 years, and the situations faced by the early Muslims changed during that time. The early Muslims faced different challenges as they grew as a community. Sometimes, new rules were needed to help them deal with these challenges better.

Instead of changing everything at once, Allah revealed rules slowly. This made it easier for people to accept and follow the new teachings. Muslims believe that Allah knows what is best for people. So, if a new rule replaces an old one, it is because Allah knows it will help people more in their current situation. In the Quran, Allah says: "وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَا آيَةً مَّكَانَ آيَةٍ ۖ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ"  "And when We substitute a verse in place of another verse, and Allah knows best what He sends down..." (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:101). This means that sometimes, one verse can take the place of another, showing that changes can happen. Abrogation helps explain why some rules in the Quran might change over time. It shows that Allah understands what people need at different times, making it easier for them to follow His guidance.

 

Your second point is "What was man made from"? In 96:2 it talks about a clot of congealed blood. This is right because it's the first part of gestation in the womb. Before the womb however, it's sperm. Only when it's collided with the egg, it turns to the clot of congealed blood.

Now it's time for me to explain how man is made from clay. Prophet Adam was made from clay. We are all his descendants, which is how we are all physically made of clay, once we are fully developed in the womb. However, Prophet Adam was not created in the womb; he was created as an adult straight away. Which is how we develop to Adam's physical form (clay) whilst we slowly develop in the womb after the sperm and after that, the clot of congealed blood.

Okay now it is time for me to explain dust (3:59). In this verse, Allah is talking about Prophet Isa (Jesus) who was the only man to be created in the womb but without sperm. This is used as a metaphor. Imagine someone says "did you just get that mid-air from dust?" as a metaphor. Allah is stating that it is easy to create a human with only one parent, so He's using "dust" as in he created Jesus from nothing. "It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others are metaphors." (3:7) In this context, "dust" is used as a metaphor to describe how Jesus was created.

The last explanation of the second point is "nothing". "Do people not remember that We created them before when they were nothing?" If you read the first properly, it doesn't mean that Allah created us from nothing. He is saying that we were once nothing. And then he created us. I hope I have explained your second point.

 

Moving onto your third point. "And they ask you about wine and gambling. Say, 'In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit.'" (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:219) Later, the prohibition of wine is made more explicit: "O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, [sacrificing on] stone alters [to other than Allah], and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful." (Surah Al-Ma'idah, 5:90)

In Islam, the Quran provides guidance on many aspects of life, including what is good and what is bad for us. When it comes to wine (or alcohol), the Quran has different verses that talk about it.

In Surah Al-Baqarah (2:219), it says that wine and gambling have some benefits for people, but their harm is greater than their benefit. This means that while some people might enjoy wine, the bad effects it can have on health and society are much worse.

Later, in Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:90), it clearly tells us to avoid intoxicants (like wine) because they are harmful and lead to bad behavior. This verse emphasizes that the negative effects of drinking alcohol outweigh any temporary enjoyment it might bring.

Wine has some benefits, but it also has a lot of harm. Islam ultimately prohibits wine because the harm it causes is much greater than any good it might bring.

 Surah Muhammad (47:15)
This verse describes the rewards of Paradise for the righteous believers. It paints a beautiful picture of what awaits them in the Hereafter: "The description of Paradise, which the righteous have been promised, is that in it are rivers of water that are unpolluted, rivers of milk whose taste has not changed, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey. And therein for them is from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord. [Are they] like those who are eternal in the Fire and given to drink scalding water that tears their intestines?"

In this verse, Allah describes the rewards in Paradise for those who are righteous and fear Him. It mentions rivers of pure water, milk, wine, and honey, highlighting the pleasures of Paradise. The mention of "wine" here refers to a pure and delightful form of wine that is free from the negative effects found in this world. It is important to understand that the wine in Paradise is not the same as the wine that is prohibited in this life; it is a reward that does not lead to intoxication or harm.

These verses also describe the rewards for the righteous in Paradise. "Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds will be in gardens; the rivers flow beneath them. That is the great attainment. Indeed, those who have disbelieved and denied Our verses - they are the companions of Hellfire. Over them will be fire closed in." These verses emphasize the rewards for the believers who do good deeds, promising them gardens in Paradise with rivers flowing beneath them. It contrasts this with the fate of disbelievers, who will face punishment in Hellfire. The mention of "wine" in the context of Paradise refers to a pure and enjoyable experience, unlike the harmful wine in this world. The verses highlight the rewards for the righteous and the consequences for those who reject faith.

In essence, while wine is prohibited in this life due to its harmful effects, the Quran describes a different, pure form of wine as part of the rewards in Paradise for those who are righteous.

 

Your fourth point : The question of whether Allah forgives those who worship false gods is addressed in different contexts within the Quran. Let's look at the two verses you mentioned: Surah An-Nisa (4:48) and Surah An-Nisa (4:153).

This verse emphasizes the seriousness of associating partners with Allah (known as "Shirk") and indicates that Allah does not forgive this sin if one dies without repenting.

(Surah An-Nisa, 4:48) "Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray."

This verse clearly states that Allah does not forgive the sin of associating partners with Him (Shirk) if a person dies without repenting from it. It highlights the importance of monotheism in Islam.

Surah An-Nisa (4:153) This verse discusses the Children of Israel and their request for a visible manifestation of Allah. It shows Allah's mercy and willingness to forgive those who turn back to Him.

(Surah An-Nisa, 4:153) "And the People of the Scripture asked you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses a greater thing than that, and they said, 'Show us Allah openly.' So the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf after clear proofs had come to them; and We forgave them, and We gave Moses a clear authority."

This verse illustrates that despite the grave mistakes made by the Children of Israel, including worshipping the calf, Allah forgave them when they repented. It shows Allah's mercy towards those who turn back to Him sincerely.

Surah An-Nisa (4:48) indicates that Allah does not forgive the sin of Shirk if one dies without repentance.
Surah An-Nisa (4:153) shows that Allah can forgive those who have committed serious sins, including worshipping false gods, if they sincerely repent.

In Islam, the key to forgiveness is sincere repentance. While associating partners with Allah is a serious sin that can lead to a lack of forgiveness if one does not repent, Allah's mercy is vast, and He forgives those who turn back to Him sincerely, regardless of their past actions.

 

Your fifth point: Is the Qur'an reasonable? The question of whether the Quran is reasonable can be approached from various perspectives, including its teachings, its coherence, and its impact on individuals and societies. The Quran is regarded by Muslims as a coherent and consistent text. It addresses various aspects of life, including morality, law, spirituality, and guidance for personal conduct. Many believers find that its teachings provide a logical framework for understanding the world and human behaviour.

The Quran invites reflection and reasoning. For example, it encourages people to ponder the creation of the heavens and the earth, as seen in verses like:
"أَفَلَا يَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ ۚ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْحَقِّ وَأَجَلٍّ مُسَمًّى ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ بِلِقَاءِ رَبِّهِمْ كَافِرُونَ" 
(Surah Ar-Rum, 30:8)
"Do they not reflect upon themselves? Allah created the heavens and the earth and everything between them in truth and for an appointed term. Yet many people deny they will meet their Lord."

The Quran provides a comprehensive moral and ethical framework that many find reasonable and applicable to daily life. It emphasises justice, compassion, and the importance of community, which are values that resonate with many people. The Quran was revealed in a specific historical and cultural context, addressing the issues and challenges faced by the early Muslim community. Many scholars argue that its teachings were reasonable and relevant to the time, and they continue to be applicable today. Some critics may argue against the reasonableness of certain Quranic verses based on their interpretations or the historical context. However, Islamic scholars emphasise the importance of understanding the Quran within its context and the principles of interpretation (Tafsir).

For many believers, the Quran is seen as a reasonable and rational text that provides guidance for life, encourages reflection, and promotes ethical behaviour. However, interpretations and understandings can vary widely, and it is essential for individuals to engage with the text thoughtfully and seek knowledge from qualified scholars.

 

Your sixth point: Understanding Gender Roles in Islam In Islam, there are verses in the Quran that talk about the roles of men and women. Some people think these verses mean that women are less important than men, but it’s important to understand what they really mean.

1. Different Roles, Not Inferiority - Surah Al-Baqarah (2:228) says that men and women have rights and responsibilities towards each other. It mentions that men have a "degree" over women, which means they have certain responsibilities, like providing for the family. This doesn’t mean men are better; it just means they have different roles.

 2. Men as Protectors - Surah An-Nisa (4:34) says that men are "in charge" of women because they have the responsibility to take care of them. Think of it like a team where everyone has different jobs. Men are expected to protect and provide, while women also have important roles in the family. 

3. Stories About Women - In Surah Yusuf (12), there are stories about specific women, but these stories don’t say that all women are bad or evil. They are just about certain situations. 

4. Witnesses in Legal Matters - Surah Al-Baqarah (2:282) talks about witnesses in financial matters. It says that if there aren’t two men available, then one man and two women can be witnesses. This was because, at that time, women were often not involved in business. It doesn’t mean women are less capable; it just reflects how society was back then.

5. Marriage and Family - Surah Al-Baqarah (2:223) says that wives are like a field for planting seeds, which means they are important for family life. It emphasizes that marriage is a partnership where both have roles.

6. Inheritance Rules - Surah An-Nisa (4:2) explains that when it comes to inheritance, a son gets twice as much as a daughter. This is because men are expected to provide for their families. It doesn’t mean women are less valuable; it’s just about the responsibilities assigned to each gender. 

In Islam, both men and women are important and have their own roles. The Quran teaches that everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. The verses about gender roles need to be understood in the context of the time they were revealed, and many scholars emphasise that both men and women are equal in worth. 

 

Your seventh (and final) point: The verses you mentioned from the Quran are often discussed in the context of their historical background and the specific situations they address. 

1. Surah At-Tawbah (9:5) Verse: "فَإِذَا انْسَلَخَ الْأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ" (Surah At-Tawbah, 9:5) Translation: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them..." Explanation: This verse was revealed during a time of conflict between Muslims and certain tribes who were hostile towards them. The "sacred months" were times when fighting was traditionally prohibited. This verse is often understood as a command to defend the Muslim community against those who were attacking them. It is not a blanket statement to harm all non-Muslims; it was specific to a historical context. 

2. Surah At-Tawbah (9:14) and (9:29) Verse 14: "فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللَّهُ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ" (Surah At-Tawbah, 9:14) Translation: "Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands..."

Verse 29: "قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ" (Surah At-Tawbah, 9:29) Translation: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day..." Explanation: These verses also refer to fighting against those who were actively opposing and attacking the Muslim community. The context is crucial; it was about defending the community from aggression. It does not mean that Muslims should fight all non-believers; rather, it addresses specific situations of conflict. 

3. Surah An-Nisa (4:91) Verse: "فَإِنَّهُمْ لَن يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ شُرَكَاءُ" (Surah An-Nisa, 4:91) Translation: "...and if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them..." Explanation: This verse emphasizes the seriousness of fighting against those who betray or attack the Muslim community. The mention of "killing an unbeliever" refers to those who are actively hostile. It is important to note that Islam teaches that killing a believer is a grave sin, and the consequences are severe.

Context Matters: The verses you mentioned were revealed during times of conflict and are often about self-defense and protecting the Muslim community from aggression. - Not a Call to Violence: These verses are not a general command to harm all non-believers. Islam teaches peace, and many scholars emphasize that these verses must be understood in their historical context. - Respect for Life: Islam places a high value on human life, and killing an innocent person, regardless of their faith, is considered a serious crime. Understanding these verses requires looking at the historical context and the overall message of Islam, which promotes peace, justice, and respect for all individuals. 

Some Islamic extremists see these verses as literal which is wrong.

 

I hope I have covered all seven of your points in a way you finally understand and I hope this opens your heart.

 

 

 

[Leslie P]

On 9/14/2024 at 7:02 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

https://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/who-are-shia

There is some excellent material on this, and I look forward to working through it. Ashvazdanghe, thank you for posting it.

There are a couple of problems with the elements in the box, though.

The first line is broadly correct, although the NT underlines the One God element heavily.

 

Second line- Saying “Forgiveness through human sacrifice” is like someone eating a mouthful of raw chilli and concluding they don't like any curries. There's so much more going on, and this description is seriously misleading.

Firstly, Jesus was no ordinary human, so it's more about God's sacrifice.

Secondly, it's about the defeat of sin as much as getting forgiveness. Sin had trapped humanity, and the only way out was through the cross. It's not about a wrathful God killing the nearest human, but God taking the full force of sin upon Himself, confronting evil in all its forms. Because God in human form did this, the people of God are released from sin.

Thirdly...this is forgiveness by infinite divine grace!

 

The third line is wrong. Once a person has made the decision to follow Christ, they belong to the Kingdom of God. It is expected that they will attend a church, but that's much like expecting attendance at Friday Jumu'ah prayer.

I hope this is helpful.

[Abu Hadi]

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

There is some excellent material on this, and I look forward to working through it. Ashvazdanghe, thank you for posting it.

There are a couple of problems with the elements in the box, though.

The first line is broadly correct, although the NT underlines the One God element heavily.

 

Second line- Saying “Forgiveness through human sacrifice” is like someone eating a mouthful of raw chilli and concluding they don't like any curries. There's so much more going on, and this description is seriously misleading.

Firstly, Jesus was no ordinary human, so it's more about God's sacrifice.

Secondly, it's about the defeat of sin as much as getting forgiveness. Sin had trapped humanity, and the only way out was through the cross. It's not about a wrathful God killing the nearest human, but God taking the full force of sin upon Himself, confronting evil in all its forms. Because God in human form did this, the people of God are released from sin.

Thirdly...this is forgiveness by infinite divine grace!

 

The third line is wrong. Once a person has made the decision to follow Christ, they belong to the Kingdom of God. It is expected that they will attend a church, but that's much like expecting attendance at Friday Jumu'ah prayer.

I hope this is helpful.

I think point 2 is one of the 'stickiest' wickets between Christians and Muslims, besides the idea of the Trinity. 

I was raised as a Christian and later chose Islam on my own. One of the main reasons was this argument. If God is infinitely powerful and infinitely merciful then it would be no problem for God to forgive every human being that has ever existed just by simply forgiving them. To say that God needed to come to earth in the form of a human being that is partially God and partially man, live, die on a cross and raise himself from the dead seemed like an unnecessary process and it portrays God as weak, i.e. he can only forgive us if he does all this stuff. God in Islam is more in accordance with what I always thought about God and what makes logical sense. If God is all powerful, he doesn't need to do any of that and to do any of that would make no sense, at least to me and alot of other Christians who I heard say that same thing. 

If God wanted to defeat sin, He(s.w.a) could just defeat it. It doesn't require a battle. Battles only happen between finite beings like us who have some power but are weak in other aspects. Again, when you say 'the only way out was thru the cross' this is making God seem weak. There is no 'only way out' for God. Please reflect on that statement 'only way out' when used in relation to God, an All Powerful and Infinite being. Please don't just repeat what you heard in Bible study. 

That applies to us. Again, why does God have to take the 'full force of sin' upon himself ? Also, even if he did, compared to his power the full force of sin is a trivial things. It is only a big thing to us because we are not all powerful. Then you said, 'This is forgiveness by infinite Divine Grace'. So then if it is ttruely infinite, why do you need the other stuff. 

As Muslims, we believe in the infinite mercy and compassion of God. It is due to this mercy that we even exist and also that we will enter Paradise (God willing) because of this infinite mercy and not because of our own good deeds. At the same time, Islam teaches us that if you want to be at peace in this life and in the hereafter God requires only two things of you. First you need to try to know God thru reflection and contemplation and using your logical facilities, which were given to you by God and also the teachings of the Prophets of God, the authentic teachings. The second thing is that when there is a conflict between what you want to do and what God wants you to do, you need to try your best to do what God wants you to do, although you will not be perfect in this and you will make mistakes. The second thing is the actual meaning of the word 'Islam'. 

Just two things, and these are things anyone can do, old or young, black or white, rich or poor, European or Chinese, short or tall, etc. 

 

 

Edited October 28 by Abu Hadi

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Leslie P said:

The third line is wrong. Once a person has made the decision to follow Christ, they belong to the Kingdom of God. It is expected that they will attend a church, but that's much like expecting attendance at Friday Jumu'ah prayer.

Hi, it's comparing apples with oranges because generally everyone who sincerely  follows any divine prophet so then he will be in kingdom of God which is not limited to following prophet Isa/Christ (عليه السلام) which even you can find good people among other non Abrahamic faiths likewise Buddhism & etc which you can find strong tendencies toward these non Abrahamic faiths among Christians in form of Yoga & etc which even Muslims have been affected in similar fashion with weaker tendencies than Christians 

which kingdom of god based "In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful. (1)" is for all as All-beneficent which simultaneously is for sincere believers as  All-merciful.

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/1:1

 according to Shia Islam you are in kingdom of God/Allah in any place & any moment without need to attending a specific place or congregation although attending in holy places & congregation likewise   Friday Jumu'ah prayer has highly recommended because it can cause increasing your spirituality for having stronger bond with God/Allah besides of benefiting from positive socialising which also in similar fashion  causes increasing your spirituality for having stronger bond with God/Allah too. 

 

Edited October 29 by Ashvazdanghe

[mahmood8726]

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

There is some excellent material on this, and I look forward to working through it. Ashvazdanghe, thank you for posting it.

There are a couple of problems with the elements in the box, though.

The first line is broadly correct, although the NT underlines the One God element heavily.

 

Second line- Saying “Forgiveness through human sacrifice” is like someone eating a mouthful of raw chilli and concluding they don't like any curries. There's so much more going on, and this description is seriously misleading.

It's not misleading my friend, that's what christians beleive, a God in human form sacrificed himself(litterally) so people can be forgiven.

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Firstly, Jesus was no ordinary human, so it's more about God's sacrifice.

All prophets(as)/immams(عليه السلام) were no ordinary humans too, they never sinned, they were the best role models of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), etc.... this however in our religion did not make them gods.

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Secondly, it's about the defeat of sin as much as getting forgiveness.

Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can forgive your sins if you sincerely repent and do your best to not repeat the sin you did in your best ability. 

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Sin had trapped humanity, and the only way out was through the cross.

No, god becoming a human and then having his human form sacrificed is not how you get your sin forgiven. This statement is problematic itself, I'll elaborate later.

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

It's not about a wrathful God killing the nearest human, but God taking the full force of sin upon Himself, confronting evil in all its forms.

Were aware of the christian doctrine you don't need to worry.

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Because God in human form did this, the people of God are released from sin.

God becoming a human is a problem in of itself, it's the same problem so many religions and even salafi Muslims suffer to a certain extent.

God becoming a human is a absurdity, it's like saying "*@*^^%%&÷&-<^:$" made no sense right? That's what you're saying here.

God will never become the creation, part of God will never become the creation not even 1%, God will never be human and God at the same time, etc...

God is God, he has a specific definition, unless you consider an imperfect human bound by size, bound by time, and all the other limitations humans suffer from as God in your definition of God, then that's a whole other problem to deal with. Or if you consider God "humbuling" himself into a limited being as part of your definition of God, then that is another can of worms. Then it will be a fully diffirent discussion where you have to work from the beginning to determine what is worthy of worship, which is the same discussion that has to be given to polythiests for example(I'm not calling you a polythiest).

But as far as I am aware in Christianity, you beleive in the commonly agreed upon monotheistic definition of God, hence why there is a contradiction here, even the best learned christians admit this, hence why it's called a mystery. 

20 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Thirdly...this is forgiveness by infinite divine grace!

When Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created us, he knew we did not deserve his blessings such as our breathing, our eyesight, our hands, our feet, our arms, etc... However, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also understood that us humans are prone to error and sin, he understood that it would be unjust to hold us fully accountable because we are imperfect. We are held accountable in accordance with our abilities. Hence why Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just forgives you if you repent and try your best to not commit the sin you just did. There is no need for God to become a self contradiction and get some Roman's to put him on a cross and sacrifice him in order for you to be forgiven.

[mahmood8726]

Salam,

 

16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

It doesn't require a battle. Battles only happen between finite beings like us who have some power but are weak in other aspects. Again, when you say 'the only way out was thru the cross' this is making God seem weak. There is no 'only way out' for God. Please reflect on that statement 'only way out' when used in relation to God, an All Powerful and Infinite being. Please don't just repeat what you heard in Bible study. 

This is an intresting thing I noticed,  christians often say "god can do anything", when questioned on why God in their religion can become a self contradiction by becoming human, but then that same God requires to forgive sin in that way and only that way and there is no other way?  Unless Christians beleive the cross isn't necessary and this is just "the way things are" or the "best way" of forgiving? Which most people would disagree with.

16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

As Muslims, we believe in the infinite mercy and compassion of God. It is due to this mercy that we even exist and also that we will enter Paradise (God willing) because of this infinite mercy and not because of our own good deeds.

To my best of understanding, It is due to his mercy and our actions that we enter heaven or hell, this is a common misconception in islam, but it is because of both, not only mercy, otherwise you would have 0 need for the scale and it would be unfair. 

I explained this in greater length to him here: 

"When Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created us, he knew we did not deserve his blessings such as our breathing, our eyesight, our hands, our feet, our arms, etc... However, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) also understood that us humans are prone to error and sin, he understood that it would be unjust to hold us fully accountable because we are imperfect. We are held accountable in accordance with our abilities. Hence why Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just forgives you if you repent and try your best to not commit the sin you just did. There is no need for God to become a self contradiction and get some Roman's to put him on a cross and sacrifice him in order for you to be forgiven."

 

 

Basically, even if our actions are insignificant to admit us to heaven, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what he created, he won't be unfair to us, he won't punish us 100% because we were ungrateful by sinning, because he gave us arms and legs, etc... if you get what I mean. We will be punished to a certain extent, but Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) understands we are limited, he understands we don't fully appreciate his favors and that's normal, were not angels or prophets(عليه السلام) or the 12 immams(عليه السلام), we will sin.

Edited October 29 by mahmood8726

[Leslie P]

18 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I think point 2 is one of the 'stickiest' wickets between Christians and Muslims, besides the idea of the Trinity. 

<snip>

...old or young, black or white, rich or poor, European or Chinese, short or tall, etc. 

 

 

Many thanks for the replies, everyone. I'll get back to the others at a later stage.

It's very interesting that this was a major reason for your decision.

What does “God is infinite/all powerful” mean? Can God create a stone that He can't lift? Can God lie? Can God force true free will? Can God appear as a human being?!?

Clearly there are things God cannot do, or will not do, which amounts to the same thing.

Can God not do whatever He needs to do with humanity without terrible suffering? Can God not put an end to it all in an instant? Can this all-powerful God not simply create infinite souls in heaven without any tears being involved? Then why doesn't He?

You say “If God wanted to defeat sin, He(s.w.a) could just defeat it. It doesn't require a battle.” Then why doesn't He?

The answer is, it actually did need the Cross. Adam's apple had to be paid for. There's huge things going on in the background here known to God. I would the answer to the Problem of Evil is not a trite answer like “It builds character”. The answer is the Cross.

Neither you nor I can possibly know how sin can be defeated. God does, and did it in the only way possible. We must be careful not to be seduced into errors by simplicity. The easy answer is often not the right answer.

The Cross came at everyone as a huge, huge surprise. That's a big argument for its truth.

 

I hope this helps.

[Abu Hadi]

8 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Many thanks for the replies, everyone. I'll get back to the others at a later stage.

It's very interesting that this was a major reason for your decision.

What does “God is infinite/all powerful” mean? Can God create a stone that He can't lift? Can God lie? Can God force true free will? Can God appear as a human being?!?

Clearly there are things God cannot do, or will not do, which amounts to the same thing.

Can God not do whatever He needs to do with humanity without terrible suffering? Can God not put an end to it all in an instant? Can this all-powerful God not simply create infinite souls in heaven without any tears being involved? Then why doesn't He?

You say “If God wanted to defeat sin, He(s.w.a) could just defeat it. It doesn't require a battle.” Then why doesn't He?

The answer is, it actually did need the Cross. Adam's apple had to be paid for. There's huge things going on in the background here known to God. I would the answer to the Problem of Evil is not a trite answer like “It builds character”. The answer is the Cross.

Neither you nor I can possibly know how sin can be defeated. God does, and did it in the only way possible. We must be careful not to be seduced into errors by simplicity. The easy answer is often not the right answer.

The Cross came at everyone as a huge, huge surprise. That's a big argument for its truth.

 

I hope this helps.

I'm not sure how much Islamic Theology you've studied, but all these questions are very simple to answer for Muslims. 

For the first one, you answered your own question. 

There are two types of impossible. There is something that is impossible because someone or some being lacks the ability or power to do it. 

There is another type of impossible. It is logically impossible because the statement is self contradictory. It contradicts itself.

Can God create a stone he cannot lift ? That statement is impossible, not because God cannot do it but because it is self contradictory. God is the Prime Mover, the Prime Cause, the Cause to which all effects originate from. If God created a stone which he cannot lift, that would mean He(s.w.a) created something more powerful than Himself(s.w.a). Since He is infinitely powerful, this is logically impossible since there is nothing larger than infinity so therefore there can be nothing 'more' anything than infinity since infinity is the most there can be. So the statement itself is a contradiction. 

Can God lie ? 

Yes, but He(s.w.a) chooses not to. He has imposed the quality of truthfulness on Himself since noone can impose it on Him. He not only imposed it on himself, but He(s.w.a) is the origin of truth and truth itself. It's like the statement 'tea is sweet and sugar is sweet', but the sweetness of tea and the sweetness of sugar is not the same thing. We are like the tea, we can be truthful but truth is not indivisible from our essence, otherwise we could not lie. Sweetness is indivisible from the essence of Sugar, in other words there is no such thing as sugar that is not sweet. That is the same with God and truthfulness. Truth is indivisible from the essence of God. 

Can God appear as a human being ? 

Again, like the stone example, this statement is a self contradiction. Human beings (all human beings) are finite, limited, non eternal, not all powerful, fallible, not all knowing, not all seeing, not omnipresent, etc. If you say 'What is a human being', this is pretty good description. God is infinite, unlimited, eternal, All Powerful , infallible, All Knowing, All Seeing, Omnipresent. Can something exist that is both eternal and non eternal, finite and infinite, All Knowing and ignorant, etc. No. This is a contradiction, a self contradiction. That is why it is impossible, not because God is limited but because we only understand things that are not self contradictions. 

Yes, God can defeat sin, but sin has a purpose and that is why God created it in the first place and allows it to exist. 

Sin exists in order to separate the ones who are sincere in their desire to know God and to obey God from those who are not sincere. We show our sincerity by our actions. Here is an example, every human being (unless they are deaf, blind, and dumb) has the ability to steal. It says in the Quran as it says in the Bible not to steal. So we know God says not to steal and if you do it will be counted against you (i.e. a sin). There are some people who steal and some who don't. Many people who steal believe in God and say they are a good person and justify the theft to themselves. They will say 'but I am a good person and I love God'. Both the people who steal and those who don't both say that. So how do we know who is sincere and who isn't ? By the actions, not the words. One group, although it might be easy for them to steal and they might benefit by the extra money or property don't do it because God says not to do it. Those are the sincere ones. The other group does it and says they love God. It is only thru the existence of sin that we know the difference and knowing the difference is essential to the ultimate plan of God, i.e. to put some people in Paradise and some in Hell fire (some for a limited time and some forever). Why God planned it this way and didn't just pop everyone into Paradise without testing them, we don't know, but we know that this is God's plan and we can either follow it and end up in Paradise or not follow it and end up in the other place. That is our choice. It is free will, true free will. 

There are many other examples. Some Christians chose to follow Prophets of God up to Jesus(peace be upon him) and stop there even though Jesus himself spoke of the one who will come after him whose sandals he is not worthy to untie. There is also mountains of evidence for the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) but most Christians refuse to look at it. Again, this is free will. You can follow 'all' the Prophets of God and be guided to the truth or not. Free will. Is it a sin not to accept all the Prophets ? Yes, and those who don't will be accountable for this based on their knowledge and level of comprehension. 

[Leslie P]

15 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

some in Hell fire (some for a limited time)

Interesting- I thought Islam taught that at death it was either Heaven or Hell forever. Could you say more on this? Thanks.

Quote

Jesus himself spoke of the one who will come after him whose sandals he is not worthy to untie. 

A very minor quibble: it was John the Baptist who said this about Jesus. Given the multiple attestation of sources (all 4 Gospels + Acts!) and other considerations, a 'neutral historian' would think it was very likely something John actually said.

Quote

There is also mountains of evidence for the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) but most Christians refuse to look at it.

What Jesus thought he was up to, and what the evidence is for the status of Muhammad, are both issues of the highest importance I would like to follow up on when we're done with sacrifice.

[Leslie P]

16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I'm not sure how much Islamic Theology you've studied, but all these questions are very simple to answer for Muslims. ...<snip>...

This is a contradiction, a self contradiction. That is why it is impossible, not because God is limited but because we only understand things that are not self contradictions. 

Excellent- we agree that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, His Nature, and His purposes.

Quote

Why God planned it this way and didn't just pop everyone into Paradise without testing them, we don't know...

In making this statement, you show an honesty and an intelligence all too rare for the internet!

We agree, then too, that an omnipotent God technically could just have put infinite souls in Paradise without anything nasty happening to anyone, but for some reason, being limited by logic, His Nature, and His purposes, will not.

Where we differ is that you think it is more likely that an all-loving God uses the suffering sin causes as a test, which many will fail to their eternal suffering. There is little conversation about God's plan, no-one really knows what's happening or why.

Whereas in Xianity God has a clearly explained plan. Think of it as an amazing Netflix show in 5 episodes:

Creation and Fall- Adam, the apple; Israel- given the task of destroying evil, but keeps dropping the ball; Prophecy- the prophets say that God will bring His Kingdom in through suffering (Isaiah 52-54); Jesus- did for Israel what it could not do for itself and destroyed sin through the Cross; The Church- amazingly, we are part of the documentary through living Jesus' mission!

Now if we can't say why sin is in the world, surely we can't begin to know how to get it out of the world. Rather than start with using human wisdom to say that the Cross seems “an unnecessary process”, I would rather listen to what God has said to us about the process, because I'm out of my depth and I know it.

And as for the idea that the Cross “portrays God as weak”, I would say the 180 opposite. God sent His Son to do what no human could ever do, and defeat evil in the only way it can be defeated, by submission to God's will to die, however agonisingly painful the process.

That's not weakness in God.

Jesus showed the ultimate in strength!

 

Edited October 30 by Leslie P

[mahmood8726]

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Excellent- we agree that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, His Nature, and His purposes.

Yes, hence why he can't become a contradiction by limiting himself into a human. I went into more detail in my response to your initial statement above in case you missed it.

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

In making this statement, you show an honesty and an intelligence all too rare for the internet!

We agree, then too, that an omnipotent God technically could just have put infinite souls in Paradise without anything nasty happening to anyone, but for some reason, being limited by logic, His Nature, and His purposes, will not.

No, because it would contradict his justice. If he put say hitler in hell just after creating him, that would be unjust. This is heavily emphasized in islam too, that you had your entire life to do what's right, so evil people can't complain once they get to hell, their actions are recorded and will be played to them on judgment day atom by atom, second by second, they will see everything they did. You will see your entire life being played as a movie and will be questioned about everything.

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Where we differ is that you think it is more likely that an all-loving God uses the suffering sin causes as a test, which many will fail to their eternal suffering.

With due respect my friend, most Christians also beleive this world is a test. Suffering comes from a lot of things, our sins, the sins of others or natural calamities that might have nothing to do with sin. Suffering is necessary to build your soul, character, etc... this is a lesson you learn in life over and over again, the suffering you endure will most likley make you stronger and more resilient, you need to work hard/smart to get gains in life. Suffering being used to test us, happens irregardless of sin, good people get tested the hardest as a matter of fact. The prophets(عليه السلام) or immams(عليه السلام) were sinless(0 sin) yet were tried the hardest out of all humanity.  It's usually evil people that have comfortable lives.

 

Ultimatley if you tried your best, you will end up in heaven, this is a promise from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), a guarentee. If you are sinciere and try your best you're not going to end up in hell or atleast try even a little bit, you potentially won't be in hell or eternally in hell. All this suffering is insignificant when you go to heaven. 

 

Unless by "sin" you mean the "sin" of Adam(عليه السلام) and eve and the "state" of the world? In that case we heavily disagree, as we shia muslims don't see Adam(عليه السلام) eating the fruit as a sin, but rather a slip, a small insignificant mistake, like slipping on a banana peel, that accelerated Adam(عليه السلام) inevtiable descent to earth so he can be tried and grow as a human being on this green earth. Adam(عليه السلام) being on earth is not him being in a "state of sin" or as a result of some "sin". Adam(عليه السلام) like every human being in existence is naturally going have a tendency to sin, irregardless of what happened in the garden. 

 

Unless you meant something else, then please elaborate. I gave answers here based on what others Christians have said.

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

There is little conversation about God's plan, no-one really knows what's happening or why

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Whereas in Xianity God has a clearly explained plan. Think of it as an amazing Netflix show in 5 episodes:

Creation and Fall- Adam, the apple; Israel- given the task of destroying evil, but keeps dropping the ball; Prophecy- the prophets say that God will bring His Kingdom in through suffering (Isaiah 52-54); Jesus- did for Israel what it could not do for itself and destroyed sin through the Cross; The Church- amazingly, we are part of the documentary through living Jesus' mission!

There is a plan in islam, you explained what christians beleive will happen. We Muslims also have an explanation to what will happen or what happened, it's found all over the quran and the multitudes of ahadiths. I urge you to ask learned people here so they can go to great details on this subject of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) plan, when it comes to many things, including sins we all commit.

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Now if we can't say why sin is in the world, surely we can't begin to know how to get it out of the world.

Sin is in the world for many reasons, if I decided to wrong Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by wasting my time for example, that is a sin. Now Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives my sin if I repent and try my best to not repeat that sin. When Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives your sin, no more debt.

Another example is if I miss a prayer, I will need to make up that missed prayer, repent, try my best not to repeat that action and then I'm forgiven. 

Simple concept in islam. 

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Rather than start with using human wisdom to say that the Cross seems “an unnecessary process”, I would rather listen to what God has said to us about the process, because I'm out of my depth and I know it.

That's your choice my friend, I would suggest to use your fitra(human wisdom) to understand that this goes against basic human intuition and you should probably look into the problems that come with such a doctrine and maybe find out that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never said such a thing. 

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

And as for the idea that the Cross “portrays God as weak”, I would say the 180 opposite. God sent His Son to do what no human could ever do, and defeat evil in the only way it can be defeated, by submission to God's will to die, however agonisingly painful the process.

A lot of humans died by submitting their will to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). He's probably calling it weak due to the problem I mentionned multiple times such as God limiting himself as a contradiction. 

[mahmood8726]

This is defenetly turning into an intresting lengthy debate I might not be able to engage much with. I might have to let you and Abu hadi discuss this, just wanted to leave my thoughts I guess and I might come back way later to maybe engage again.

[PureExistence1]

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Interesting- I thought Islam taught that at death it was either Heaven or Hell forever. Could you say more on this? Thanks.

Salaam and sorry to butt in here, just wanted to respond to this.

In Islam, immediately when a persons soul detaches from the physical body, it enters an intermediate realm called Barzakh.

Barzakh is the first place we experience the embodiment of actions (tajesamul amaal) good and bad. Our souls remain in Barzakh until Judgement day.

If a person had a lot of sins, the quality of their experience of Barzakh will be a negative one, they will suffer some, but it is a remediation for their actions, a form of purification. When judgement day occurs, the person has been purified by then due to their experience in Barzakh and will be fit for Heaven/Jannah.

Something not mentioned oftentimes in these discussions is yes, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives our sins, but there is still a type of "damage" that occurs to the soul that doesn't disappear with only forgiveness. Thats why is SOOOO important to not sin in the first place. 

Someone can elaborate further if they wish, otherwise heres a video: 

 

Sheikh Jaffer also tries to dispell the misconceptions and ideas some muslims have of Barzakh. Its worth a listen for those who truly want to learn. This is part 1 of 3 but is probably enough of an overview of the subject for a newcomer or someone who wishes to get the general idea.

I know Sheikh Sekaleshfar has spoken at depth on the subject of Barzakh but im unable to find a lecture by him.

[mahmood8726]

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

If a person had a lot of sins, the quality of their experience of Barzakh will be a negative one, they will suffer some, but it is a remediation for their actions, a form of purification. When judgement day occurs, the person has been purified by then due to their experience in Barzakh and will be fit for Heaven/Jannah.

Wait before I actually leave the two to discuss this, what do you mean by purification? An evil person will enter jahannam purified? 

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

Something not mentioned oftentimes in these discussions is yes, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgives our sins, but there is still a type of "damage" that occurs to the soul that doesn't disappear with only forgiveness. Thats why is SOOOO important to not sin in the first place.

Yes, because actions have consequences, your sins are forgiven so all is good there, but your physical body and soul are damaged, your heart becomes colder for eg. Unless I'm missing something.

Edited October 30 by mahmood8726

[PureExistence1]

46 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

An evil person will enter jahannam purified? 

Salaam,

Not an "evil" person, just average people who didnt completely cover and ruin their soul..there are some who even Barzakh wil not purify and they will go to Jahannam...whether jahannam is for literal eternity or not is a discussion  amongst scholars. Some say the Quran mentions hell eternally, others say eternal hell would be against Gods Justice/Adl/ Rahman /Rahim/ etc attributes.

Idk as im just a person with no scholarly background. My opinion doesnt really matter in this regard.