I am a Christian, why should I become a Muslim?

[Leslie P]

On 1/19/2025 at 9:19 PM, PureExistence1 said:

The majority of the iron that was present at Earth's formation is located in the Earth's core. During the planet's formation, the process of differentiation caused heavier elements like iron and nickel to sink to the center, forming the core.

...<snip>...Earth's accessible iron supply.

This is vaguely what I would say, and it seems to support my analysis. Remember that the claim in proof 6 of the article linked to earlier is that iron comes from meteorites, which wasn't known in C6 AD, hence it's miraculous knowledge.

By the sixth century AD, ironworking was well established across Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, meaning that meteorite iron wasn't necessary for weapon manufacture. Given that the Qu'ran seems to be not talking about meteorites, there's no miracle involved.

[Leslie P]

On 1/19/2025 at 9:31 PM, PureExistence1 said:

Apologies for my previous posts not opening with greetings to you.

That was definitely not appropriate of me:(

God willing, all is well with you. I commend you on taking such a deep dive into Islam and these points. Even if you end up not convinced, you have done your due diligence towards your own soul and followed Gods expectation of his creation/servants/etc searching for the Truth.

 

This is about the nicest thing anyone has said on the internet to me. (With the atheist forums it tends to come from the other end of the spectrum...!). Many thanks, and I hope all is well with you.

Quote

Let me get back on point.

I dont want to pick on this particular subject as all perspectives of these scholars/thinkers have validity.

<snip>

This is one example of how "70,000 levels" and different scholars conclusions can all be true at the same time.

Again, I think we're in agreement. My aim here is not to say the Qu'ran is wrong, but to examine the claims in the article linked to earlier: that the Qu'ran contains scientific knowledge that was unknown at the time, and that any reasonable person would be able to see this and would revert to Islam.

There have been a number of times when others have said that the Qu'ran most likely is talking about something else. This challenges the claim of miracle in each case, while not challenging the Qu'ran itself. This appears to be one of those times. Unless it can be shown that the delayed mixing of different bodies of water must have been intended as a meaning in the Qu'ran, we are looking at some of the other potential meanings and no miracle.

Tangentially, the range of meanings thing also applies to the Bible. I suspect you have met a number of Christians who believe that the Bible must be read in one way only, with the precision of a legal contract. This is wrong. One passage can have a range of interpretations. For example, the parable of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19–31) does clearly command us to be kind to the needy, but the real point comes at the end, when Jesus points out that even someone rising from the dead won't convince some people.

[mahmood8726]

22 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Many thanks for your reply, with a great level of detail and a lot for me to think about!

It probably is all about the effect on the tendency to sin, as mentioned, which is in line with my key point. A lot of religious groups have abandoned alcohol, never is it claimed that this is to be taken as miraculous.

Sin is almost always the number 1 priority to prevent in religion. 

This over emphasis on the miraculous aspects or scientific aspect, mostly comes from muslims and christians who want to encourage skeptics who don't really beleive in god, to accept their religion. Skeptics who usually see religion as an old tale and they obsess over scientific discoveries. 

Now don't get me wrong, the miraculous aspect could be a thing too, but we have to stop over emphasizing it as if it is the sole thing that is supposed to prove islam. There are some cases where there are things in the quran that are quite miraculous, but some people take it to the extreeme.

A lot of things decreed by Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), from my understanding, have the removal of sin as a top priority. Or it could be because we just don't know, we're humans after all, we will never know exactly why Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decreed a lot of things, many times we will have to speculate or resort to examining the quran and hadiths. 

Edited January 26 by mahmood8726

[Guest Imām Zayd al-Shahīd]

Salam alaykum

 

The ascription to Jesus of these extra-ordianary anti-Torah doctrines:

deification of Jesus, the tripling of the Divine person, the linking of the forgiveness of sins to the crucifixion of a man 

require decisive unambiguous testimony from the mouth of Jesus himself, which is lacking

Rather, what we find when he is not speaking in parables or layered language but teaching in his decisive unambiguous answers to questions is a confirmation of the Torah (the most important Commandments, the Law and the Prophets)

Therefore, the default teaching of Jesus about Allah is the default teaching of the Torah about Allah:

 

Allah is One person

Allah is not a man to have the characteristics of men but He is that He is

No man will be punished for the sin of another

Allah washes the sins with confession and/or acts of atonement

Prophets do things by the will/'finger' of Allah

Prophets cannot change the will of Allah

 

And it is an argument for the prophethood of Muhammad ص that he taught the exegetical continuity of the Gospel with the Torah by reading the ambiguous parables and aphorisms in light of the decisive commandments and sermons, at a time when the teachings of Jesus had been distorted into a priestly institution with beliefs resembling Neoplatonic paganism with some mystery religion ritual thrown in as the Eucharist to replace the Feast of the early Christians we find mentioned in the Didache. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This is vaguely what I would say, and it seems to support my analysis. Remember that the claim in proof 6 of the article linked to earlier is that iron comes from meteorites, which wasn't known in C6 AD, hence it's miraculous knowledge.

By the sixth century AD, ironworking was well established across Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, meaning that meteorite iron wasn't necessary for weapon manufacture. Given that the Qu'ran seems to be not talking about meteorites, there's no miracle involved

Hi , at first all planets don't create any substance likewise Iron or copper or etc which we can find these materials in every planet in different percentages which even the Iron in core of earth has meteorite origin which referring to history of the ironworking doesn't prove your point because history of it just shows when people could extract the iron from other combinations of metals so then use it more than before which existence of meteorite iron just shows origin of the iron under layers of earth after forming layers of earth over it which our access to it is more than other planets because percentage of it in our planet is more than other planets which existence of power in iron doesn't limit to weapon manufacture also according to holy Quran it has more other benefits which involves  the miracle .

Quote

Certainly We sent Our apostles with manifest proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the Balance, so that mankind may maintain justice; and We sent down iron, in which there is great might and uses for mankind, and so that Allah may know those who help Him and His apostles [with faith] in the Unseen. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. (25)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/57:25

 

[Leslie P]

There's no clear idea about how iron arrived on earth yet. Collisions with planetesimals seems the general approach. However science has yet to come up with a decision on the exact mechanisms.

Hopefully we can agree that the phrasing used, “We sent down iron” is rather vague. Although consistent with the main theories of how iron is on earth, given the all round vagueness of the sentence and scientific knowledge, there doesn't seem to be anything like a conclusive miracle here.

The military reference is because that is what some Muslim translators/commentators seem to think it's about.

[Leslie P]

Back to the Reverts Guidebook linked to earlier.

Proof 8 (see earlier linked article)

Darkness-

The darkness under the water has been written about before the Qu'ran.

“In the same way water appears to be black when it is rough, as for instance the ripple of the sea; for owing to the roughness of the surface few rays can fall on it, and the light is scattered, and so what is in shadow appears black.” 'Aristotle' De Coloribis

Also it's common sense- the deeper you dive, the darker it gets. If you go deep enough...

Further, the passage is intended as a metaphor which only makes sense if those present knew about darkness underwater.

 

Underwater waves-

Again, written about before the Qu'ran:

Jonah 2: You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

Also the actual verse says all the layers of waves cover the sea, not that one set is inside it. Internal waves are transparent and add nothing to darkness which is what is the subject. Waves can arrive in overlapping sets, which can give the illusion of wave above wave (constructive teleconference).

 

Proof 9

nutfa- the quote appears to repeat the common ancient belief that the male seed contained the entirety of human life, and the womb was merely a nurturing environment.

That semen gives rise to both male and female babies seems fairly obvious...

alaq- again, this seems to fit with the common ancient idea that the sperm swims in and attaches itself to the womb and grows.

 

Proof 10

I'm not sure muneer means what the Reverts Guidebook writer seem to think it does.

The gist of it seems to be “enlightening”. Something that gives enlightenment to others. As far as I can see, it's not that muneer implies reflecting light rather it's about creating light The primary connotation leans towards being a source of light. The translation quoted in the Reverts Guidebook “giving light” seems pretty spot on.

[Leslie P]

OK, let's wrap this up now.

Proof 11

To any observer on earth, the sun appears to be travelling in a circular motion around the earth. Less obviously, the moon appears to move in a circular or path over time when observed from Earth. This was known to astronomers and Arab navigators in C7.

Proof 12

It does seem clear from those who know these things that the language of the Qu'ran is exceptional. But that doesn't make it miraculous. Shakespeare's work is also exceptional in its language. Furthermore, how am I as a non-Arabic speaker supposed to appreciate that its language could only be of divine origin?

Having read it in translation, I don't get any strong feeling of divine origin. Surely it should work in translation?

 

The Bible has this magnificent, astonishing story running through it, that works equally in translation. Humanity separated from God by making really bad choices. God having a plan through the Jewish nation to sort it all out, but being human they are unable to behave well enough to carry it through. So Jesus comes to rescue the plan and restore our place with God.

One story across many centuries, cultures and different writers, but still one mind-boggling story.

[Leslie P]

Thanks to those who, knowing the Qu'ran properly, have stepped in to give readings of it that make better sense than hidden miracles. That, combined with significant ambiguity, and some wider questions, make it difficult to agree with the writing referred to earlier that there are clear hidden miracles.

There could have been something along the lines of “Water is made from two types of air, one twice as much as the other”; “If two objects come close to each other, they will continue to interact indefinitely”; “All humans have two lists of physical information that pass to their children. For men, these are different types, for women the same”. This would have been very clear and unambiguous. However I don't see that.

Note that saying that the Qu'ran doesn't obviously contain secret miracles is different to saying it's not divinely inspired.

 

[Leslie P]

So what could be other reasons for adopting Islam?

[mahmood8726]

56 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

So what could be other reasons for adopting Islam?

It depends on the person, every person has something that convinces them a religion is the truth.

Its probably a good idea to give your reasons for rejecting islam and people here will try and see wether your arguments are valid or not.

 

or why you think Christianity is the truth and others will give their reasons as to why they might disagree it's the truth.

 

I know many Christians who were convinced about the scientific miracles of Islam, which I can see the merit of it, some of them are very good. But for a person like me, these miracles serve more as a way to remind myself how amazing the quran is and to increase faith. 

Edited February 9 by mahmood8726

[PureExistence1]

On 2/9/2025 at 8:41 AM, Leslie P said:

how am I as a non-Arabic speaker supposed to appreciate that its language could only be of divine origin?

Having read it in translation, I don't get any strong feeling of divine origin. Surely it should work in translation?

 

Hello again:)

I felt the same way until i started to become more familiar with how precise the arabic usd in the quran is.

[PureExistence1]

On 2/2/2025 at 9:21 AM, Leslie P said:

alaq- again, this seems to fit with the common ancient idea that the sperm swims in and attaches itself to the womb and grows.

Hi:)

The Arabic word alaq (علق) has multiple nuanced meanings rooted in the concept of clinging or attaching. Linguistically, it can refer to:

A leech

A blood clot

Coagulated blood

An early embryo

Something that is suspended or hanging

The word derives from the verb 'aliqa, which means "to hang, stick, cling, or adhere". In modern Arabic, it primarily means "leech", but its broader semantic range includes the idea of something being attached to another thing.

In the Quranic context, alaq appears in Surah Al-Alaq (the 96th chapter), where it is used to describe the early stages of human creation.

The claim that the Quran refers to the clinging of an embryo rather than the clinging of sperm to the uterine wall can be supported by examining the linguistic and embryological context of the term alaq (علق). Here's how:

Meaning of Alaq: The word alaq has multiple meanings, including "leech," "something that clings," and "a clot of blood". Modern embryology confirms that an early-stage embryo (around 15–26 days) resembles a leech in both appearance and function, as it clings to the uterine wall and draws nutrients from the maternal blood supply.

Embryological Context: The Quranic description aligns with the stage when the embryo is attached to the uterine wall via a connecting stalk, which later becomes the umbilical cord. This attachment reflects both the "clinging" and "suspended" meanings of alaq, rather than referring to sperm, which does not cling in this manner.

Historical Misunderstandings: Ancient beliefs about procreation often misunderstood sperm's role, imagining it as clinging directly to the uterus. However, the Quran's use of alaq more accurately describes the embryo's behavior, which was only understood scientifically centuries later.

Based on both linguistic analysis and modern embryology, alaq is better interpreted as referring to the clinging embryo rather than sperm.

[Nad_M]

On 2/9/2025 at 6:39 PM, mahmood8726 said:

It depends on the person, every person has something that convinces them a religion is the truth.

Its probably a good idea to give your reasons for rejecting islam and people here will try and see wether your arguments are valid or not.

 

or why you think Christianity is the truth and others will give their reasons as to why they might disagree it's the truth.

 

I know many Christians who were convinced about the scientific miracles of Islam, which I can see the merit of it, some of them are very good. But for a person like me, these miracles serve more as a way to remind myself how amazing the quran is and to increase faith. 

The Quran is meant to provide spiritual, not scientific guidance. The miraculous way of the Quranic speech, its description of the universe and nature made sense to the ancient people all the while maintaining sufficient flexibility and space so that when the intellect and knowledge of men reach its peak, then that same Book becomes a permanent evidence. 

For example the verses 2:22,20:53,40:64 draw the image of a comfortable and protective tent with a sheltering binaa' above (the word is applied to tents and canopies and the like used by Bedouins). The ancients, just like us today, would firstly understand that the binaa' provides them with protection which in turn would ignite their God-consciousness and gratitude 

Quote

88:18-20"And the heaven, how it is reared aloft, And the mountains, how they are firmly fixed, And the earth, how it is made a vast expanse". 

This is the spiritual intent of the verses and if that is appreciated then the Quran has fully reached its objective. The readers and listeners can then go after the collateral, indirect and ambiguous meanings. They may inject their own erroneous views of nature onto the broad and ambiguous terms by equating binaa' with a solid physical canopy, just like we can blend our current scientific knowledge with the general words, so as to equate binaa'/structure with the protective atmosphere and upwards such as the magnetosphere. The Quran's ambiguous wording on the other hand would neither confirm nor negate any of the 2 interpretations. The only explicit stance of the Quran is as regards the spiritual portent of the verse, which both ancient and modern readers can grasp regardless of their understanding of nature.

It is worthy of note that although the Quran was revealed in the backward milieu of pre-Islamic Arabia, it nevertheless repeatedly calls its audience and readers upon reflection and observation of every aspect of creation, most often the universe, in order to increase in spirituality, not in scientific discovery. It is not one of the Quran’s goals to tell everything about the universe; its main goal is to guide its audience to the apparent significances that they can see with their eyes and feel. This is why the Quran only speaks of the apparent significances like the sky, earth, mountains, sun, moon, clouds and so on. 

Whether we look at nature and the universe according to ancient beliefs or in light of the latest discoveries, our appreciation and awe of these phenomena, how they are regulated and preserved, is not diminished. Regardless of what we may call these laws, they continue to serve as evidence of the truth and of God’s power which is manifest in 

Quote

3:190"the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the succession of night and day".

This not only pertains to astronomy but other aspects of the observable nature, spoken of with just enough depth to be relevant spiritually, while maintaining a neutral wording so as to avoid either confirming or blatantly rejecting the scientific notions of the ancients. The Quran was not sent to clear their misunderstandings, rather to clear their ignorance of the higher realities of our existence, and which are present in every aspect of nature 

Quote

2:115"so whichever way you turn, there is the Face of Allah". 

It would have been counterproductive for the Quran to blatantly mention unknown science facts. It carried the risk of deflecting the audience's attention from the deeper message, confusing them further during the delicate process of spiritual reform. Early Muslims appreciated the spiritual portents of these verses but were then free to delve deeper into the unintended scientific aspect, interpreting it in accordance with their own views. We do the same today and others will continue after us, the more scientific advancements are made. 

To the spiritually aware, for whom all observation of nature is seen through the prism of God-consciousness, these advancements are simply unravelling further God's might. Islamically, this is the correct approach to all scientific endeavor. When devoid of the spiritual angle, observation of nature only scratches the surface of reality 

Quote

30:7-8"They know what is apparent of the worldly life, but they, of the Hereafter, are unaware. Do they not contemplate within themselves? Allah has not created the heavens and the earth and what is between them except in truth and for a specified term. And indeed, many of the people, in [the matter of] the meeting with their Lord, are disbelievers".

All Quranic facts are absolute, and non falsifiable which isnt the case for most scientific facts, because they are the evolutionary product of the human mind as it goes from the primitive to the complex. In the course of human search of knowledge, previous postulates evolved from a speck of truth, to half truth to certain truth then many times only to revert back to ignorance. Most of what we knew, know and will know as science facts always prove in the course of time to be transient.

That is why the modern trend of seeking science "fact" or "errors" in the Quran, while science itself is undergoing an evolutionary process through the human medium of reasoning, is a fundamental mistake in approaching the meanings of the Quran. This book doesnt need its “credibility” enhanced by means of technical, mathematical, or quantitative data. The Quran is an integrated and consolidated whole that is in no need of scientific confirmation, while science is in need of constant substantiation as it keeps moving from one theory to another. Finite man will never be able to produce infinite science; man will never be able to produce eternal facts.

[Nad_M]

On 9/13/2024 at 9:22 AM, Guest Ethan said:

I have looked into the evidence for both Christianity and Islam and found Christianity's evidence compelling, but Islam's far from compelling. 

Why are you a Muslim? Why should I become a Muslim?

This is a question you have to ask yourself, following a simple methodology. 

Assuming you already believe in 1 Creator eternal and unique, then ask yourself how would this Creator express his will in this world, in terms of morality, spirituality. How does this Creator define himself, does his description contradict philosophical and metaphysical axioms?

You can try answering these questions yourself, as philosophers have been trying since ancient times, or you can rely on what is available and that can authentically be attributed to a person claiming prophethood. 

The difference between a prophet and philosopher is that the former, after seclusion and deep insight gets the truth and wisdom from God whereas the latter arrives to a glimpse of it or sometimes falls short of it by himself. Consequently, we find that the books of ancient philosophers, and of those that developed their theories after them, could not stand the test of subsequent criticism, resulting either in exposing flaws or entirely discrediting their lines of thought. As to the branch of philosophy that claims to investigate the realm of metaphysics through rational thought, the Quran categorically denies these attempts since it states that the concepts of God, Hereafter and revelation are parts of the knowledge of the unseen/ghayb, meaning beyond the reach of human perception. That knowledge is only imparted through revelation and thus all true metaphysical endeavors depend on it. Although the Quran continuously encourages humanity to inquire into and reflect upon the visible world to acquire knowledge, and understand through it the rational need for the resurrection, judgement and hereafter, in the case of knowledge of the unseen, it aims to guide the individuals during that process

Quote

96:4-5"He taught mankind that which they did not know".

 Any philosophy that is not guided is in great error when dealing with the metaphysical realm, a realm transcending our sense-experience, making its direct intuition or experience impossible. 
 

[Leslie P]

On 2/13/2025 at 4:50 PM, PureExistence1 said:

Hi:)

The Arabic word alaq (علق) has multiple nuanced meanings rooted in the concept of clinging or attaching. Linguistically, it can refer to:

<snip>

Based on both linguistic analysis and modern embryology, alaq is better interpreted as referring to the clinging embryo rather than sperm.

Thanks for the thought. It does seem to me it could go either way from what is written. It could refer to a developing embryo, but it could also refer to a mistaken understanding of the fertilisation process. Neither contradiction nor proof.

[Leslie P]

On 2/13/2025 at 4:39 PM, PureExistence1 said:

Hello again:)

I felt the same way until i started to become more familiar with how precise the arabic usd in the quran is.

Could you expand on the word "precise" here? My understanding is that it was the beauty of the language that was the claimed miracle.

[Leslie P]

On 2/9/2025 at 5:39 PM, mahmood8726 said:

It depends on the person, every person has something that convinces them a religion is the truth.

Its probably a good idea to give your reasons for rejecting islam and people here will try and see wether your arguments are valid or not.

or why you think Christianity is the truth and others will give their reasons as to why they might disagree it's the truth.

 

I know many Christians who were convinced about the scientific miracles of Islam, which I can see the merit of it, some of them are very good. But for a person like me, these miracles serve more as a way to remind myself how amazing the quran is and to increase faith. 

I'll take you up on that suggestion. 

What have I missed about the miracles, then? There doesn't seem a lot that convinces, and I feel the Muslim posters who have said that the miracle question is unhelpful might be onto something.

[Leslie P]

Following that, along the way, it has been suggested that being convinced about Islam might be something that needs a different approach. If you could pray for me to know the truth, it would be appreciated.

[PureExistence1]

3 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Could you expand on the word "precise" here? My understanding is that it was the beauty of the language that was the claimed miracle.

Yes, i will try but someone whos more familiar with arabic like brother @Abu Hadi  can most likely give better examples than i can. I have no command over arabic and i only know what i said through coming across explanations in speeches and in conversations with scholars who explained the grammar to me. Thanks to an unavoidable situation in my life, my mind is very foggy these days so my recall is practically a 2 or 3 out of 10

Please give me some time to put this response together for you unless someone else responds sooner.

 

[mahmood8726]

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

I'll take you up on that suggestion. 

What have I missed about the miracles, then? There doesn't seem a lot that convinces, and I feel the Muslim posters who have said that the miracle question is unhelpful might be onto something.

Unfortunatley i won't be able to answer that as I will have to read the book that was suggested to you and see what part you disagreed with in that convo, I wasnt paying attention too much to it unfortunatley except for a few like the alchool one maybe. 

 

3 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Following that, along the way, it has been suggested that being convinced about Islam might be something that needs a different approach. If you could pray for me to know the truth, it would be appreciated.

The most important thing is sincerity, I really mean it, as in i recommend when you read the quran, don't come with the mentality of "i will debunk this and prove that islam is wrong", this will most likley result in you being misguided, the quran will guide people who basically want to be guided. This is if you're planning on reading the quran for the first time or again.

[TheWayofTheSalaaf]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:11 PM, Guest ethan said:

Thank you, I appreciate your peaceful and respectful tone. However, I would like to understand this point here you have raised. Is the Qur'an consistent and reasonable? This is not what I have discovered. 

Why is a doctrine of abrogation necessary if the Qur'an is the word of Allah? Surely this indicates human flaws and a lack of consistency. Furthermore, I do not think that the Qur'an is very consistent even with a theology of abrogation. 

What was man made from? A clot of congealed blood (Surah 96:2), clay (15:26), dust (3:59), nothing (19:67), sperm (16:4). 

Is wine consumption good (47:15; 83:22-25) or bad (5:90)? 

Does Allah forgive those who worship false Gods? No (4:48) or yes (4:153)? 

Furthermore, is the Qur'an reasonable? I disagree. 

Women are inferior to man (2:228), Men are in charge of women (4:34), women are innately evil and malicious (12:28, 33, 34, 50), Women's testimony is 1/2 that of a mans (2:282), Husbands have total rights over a wife's body (2:223), Women receive 1/2 the inheritance of a man (4:2). 

Kill the idolaters whenever you find them (9:5), fight the unbelievers (9:14, 29), killing an unbeliever gives a reward but killing a believer sends you to hell (4:91). 

This is a very simplistic and by no means comprehensive analysis of the Qur'an. I am also happy to look at Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. 

 

1.) Most of your arguments are based on personal preference. Sometimes we may not like the truth. Religion is not something you should shop around until you find one that you like. It is about truth.

2.) The bible also has many examples of abrogrations. To be consistent you would also have to find this problematic with Judaism and Christianity.