I am a Christian, why should I become a Muslim?

[Abu Hadi]

17 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Excellent- we agree that God's omnipotence is limited by logic, His Nature, and His purposes.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure how you got that this is a limitation of God from my statement ? 

This is a limitation of us, human beings. Saying for the x number of times: This is a limitation of us human beings not God. 

If a statement contradicts itself (i.e. a self contradiction) we have no way of understanding it. 

[Leslie P]

OK, I'm now really confused about Islamic doctrine on the after-life. Can I ask for clarification?

So all souls go to a place not completely unlike the Catholic purgatory. There they purify their sins through suffering. Is that everyone, including strong Muslims; if not what are the different categories?

I always thought that following final judgement only proper Muslims got to go to Heaven, and that my Christianity wasn't going to help me (my views on Jesus being exceptionally sinful). What happens to non-Muslims of various types? Is what PureExistence1 suggested, that Hell may not be eternal, widespread as a belief?

Have I missed anything important here?

How much agreement is there on this within Islam?

Thanks!

[Leslie P]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I'm not exactly sure how you got that this is a limitation of God from my statement ? 

This is a limitation of us, human beings. Saying for the x number of times: This is a limitation of us human beings not God. 

If a statement contradicts itself (i.e. a self contradiction) we have no way of understanding it. 

I did originally think you had accepted God as limited by logic from your post, but I see that's not quite right. It is a standard statement about God I'd met some time before. The key takeaway is that whether you call it a limitation or just non-engagement with nonsense, God doesn't do contradictions.

My broader point being that God for some reason, whatever the reason is, cannot simply create perfect people in Heaven. His Nature and the avoidance of contradictions prevent that.

(I think that's the general gist of the Quranic verse: “Had God willed it, He would have guided all to the right path” (10:99).)

Having agreed that the situation isn't at all easy to analyse, I would say that 'easy to understand' is a poor guide to truth in this situation, and that we need to listen to God.

With that in mind, has the time come for you to present the “mountains of evidence for the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h)”?

Thanks in advance.

Just a 'heads up'- life becomes more busy from today, and my replies will be delayed. Please don't take that as a lack of enthusiasm, and please keep returning!

[Abu Hadi]

Funny you should ask about 'mountains of evidence'. I am currently writing a book on the subject. Please read and let me know what you think 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lx_HxRQv2D9W7kvUbT9SCzUXy-trbgno17FAAXaubn0/edit?usp=sharing

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 10/31/2024 at 7:33 PM, Leslie P said:

OK, I'm now really confused about Islamic doctrine on the after-life. Can I ask for clarification?

So all souls go to a place not completely unlike the Catholic purgatory. There they purify their sins through suffering. Is that everyone, including strong Muslims; if not what are the different categories?

I always thought that following final judgement only proper Muslims got to go to Heaven, and that my Christianity wasn't going to help me (my views on Jesus being exceptionally sinful). What happens to non-Muslims of various types? Is what PureExistence1 suggested, that Hell may not be eternal, widespread as a belief?

Have I missed anything important here?

How much agreement is there on this within Islam?

Thanks!

Him according to Shia Islam purgatory has been called Barzakh as interval between this world & hereafter which can be likewise bot of hell for sinners & paradise for good people which some shia muslims who have mixed good deeds & sins which their good deeds weigh more than their minor sins will be purified by suffering  in order to purify Shia muslims from some of these sins in order to they can enter to paradise in here after which suffering of some of them maybe extended by going to hell until total purification so then they will enter to Paradise after 30,000 years of suffering in hell .

Barzakh will be likewise Paradise/Heaven for sincere strong Muslims who will receive  rewards in similar fashion of Paradise/Heaven without decreasing their final reward in hereafter in Paradise/Heaven. 

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Barzakh (Arabic:بَرزَخ) is a world between this world and hereafter; it is also called the imaginal world or the world of grave. Brazakh exists for both believers and non-believers, though it is similar to the Heaven for the former, and similar to the Hell for non-believers

 

Quote

In the Qur'an

The word 'Barzakh' has been mentioned three times in the Qur'an.^[3] but only in Qur'an 23:100 it has been used in the meaning in question:

“

حَتَّى إِذَا جَاء أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ رَبِّ ارْجِعُونِ (۹۹) لَعَلِّی أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِیمَا تَرَكْتُ كَلَّا إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا وَمِن وَرَائِهِم بَرْزَخٌ إِلَى یوْمِ یبْعَثُونَ "When death comes to one of them, he says, 'My Lord! Take me back (99) that I may act righteously in what I have left behind.' 'By no means! These are mere words that he says.' And ahead of them is a

In Hadiths

Definition

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In some hadiths, the word 'Barzakh' is used to mean an interval between this world and the hereafter. For instance, according a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a), all (true) Shiites will go to the Heaven in the hereafter, and, the hadith goes on, 'I swear to God that I fear about you in Barzakh'. A person asked him about Barzakh, and Imam answered: '[it is] the grave, from one's death to the Day of Judgment'.^[8] This latter statement implies that the world of grave is the world of Barzakh —indeed, grave in this hadith does not mean a certain hole in the earth; it is a metaphor for Barzakh.^[9]

Barzakh's Heaven and Hell

Some hadiths state that the world of Barzakh has its own heaven and hell in which people are rewarded or punished for their deeds.^[10] The Prophet (s) says: "the grave is either a garden of heaven or a hole of hell".^[11]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Barzakh

Halfway between Reward and Punishment

After entering the world of Barzakh one does not experience physical pains like headache, toothache and such other troubles. Such suffering forms a part of the essentials of the material world. But there, in Barzakh, it is the realm of abstracts or of incorporeal beings. Of course, it can also not be called the Hereafter, which may mean that there will be only darkness for the sinners and only light for the obedient ones.

Some people asked the Imam ((عليه السلام).) about the duration of Barzakh. He replied, “It is from the moment of death up to the time when all will rise from their graves regaining life.1

The Holy Qur’an says:

...and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised. (23:100)

Quote

The Degree of Effects

Compared with this world, one of the specialities of the realm of Barzakh is effectiveness. In the science of medicine there is a theory, the description whereof is of no use for the common masses. So we will proceed after only hinting towards it. It is that there are two things, one that affects something and the other that is affected. According to the aforesaid theory the more these two things are subtle, the more profound will be the effect.

Fruits, sweets and the pleasure, which we derive in this world, are like a drop in the ocean in comparison with those in the realm of Barzakh. The tastefulness there is immeasurably more than it is here. If only a part of the face of a heavenly Houri is unveiled, it will dazzle the eyes of the whole world. If the entire of beauty of that fairy opens it will outshine the sun. Indeed, absolute beauty is available only there.

God says:

“Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in works. “(18:7)

Meaning: We have made whatever is in the world an adoration but it is a beauty which is a test or trial. The intention is to differentiate between child and a major person whereby it may be known as to who becomes mad after this toy (this material world) and who does not pay any attention to this plaything. The real pleasure lies in the real beauty and in trying to attain it.

 

Your Christanity may help you for going to Paradise/Heaven which all of your deeds whether  good or bad deeds will be recorded & won't be forgotten based on your intention which in similar fashion other non-muslims have chance of going to Heaven based on their good deeds & their intention .

 

 

 

 

 

On 10/31/2024 at 7:34 PM, Leslie P said:

My broader point being that God for some reason, whatever the reason is, cannot simply create perfect people in Heaven. His Nature and the avoidance of contradictions prevent that.

According to Shia Islam viewpoint God will create perfect body for people who will be entered to Heaven;  which he has created perfect humans in this world as prophets & infallible Imams which prophet Muhammd (pbu) is most perfect human who he has been first creation so then her daughter & Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so then rest of   infallible shia Imams so then prophets ; which his most prefect creation prophet Muhammad (pbu) has lower rank than him but higher rank than whole of his creation . 

an example of creation of perfect body for people of heaven is creation of  Barzakh body which has not our limitation in this world which even people of heaven will have more perfect body than their Barzakh body.

Picture in the Mirror, with Two Stipulations

Scholars and experts of scholastic theology have compared the Barzakh body with what one sees in a mirror. Of course there are two differences. First, the said picture is actual (not a mere reflection) and second, it achieves senses. The facsimile body is real and it also senses and understands things.

An incomparable example is dream. Therein we travel immeasurable distances in a split second. In no time we reach Holy Mecca, Holy Mashhad and all other places. We also see and hear people over there and also talk there. But all these things are not performed by physical organs. Not only this, better, higher and finer things like various kinds of tasty food, good-looking faces and pleasing fragrance as well as melodious songs etc are instantly available to the facsimile body, things which are unimaginable here. All these things are found in Barzakh and the souls can benefit from all these things in their facsimile bodies.

https://www.al-islam.org/hereafter-maad-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/barzakh-purgatory-stage-between-world-and

 

[Leslie P]

Thank you for this- there's a lot I didn't know!

Are these universally believed by Muslims, or are some in dispute?

[Leslie P]

On 10/31/2024 at 8:59 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Funny you should ask about 'mountains of evidence'. I am currently writing a book on the subject. Please read and let me know what you think 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lx_HxRQv2D9W7kvUbT9SCzUXy-trbgno17FAAXaubn0/edit?usp=sharing

Many thanks for this. Since there's 69 pages, and I like to double check things, I may be some time...

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Are these universally believed by Muslims, or are some in dispute?

Hi thank you for your concern , This is mostly shia viewpoint which although it has been accepted in classic sunni viewpoint but it has no place in contemporary Sunni viewpoint which affected by Wahabi viwpoint which   Wahabis have specific viewpoint which is in opposition to both of Sunni & shia viewpoint which in similar fashion Wahabi viewpoint  is not compatible with Qur'anic verses.

 

Shia viewpoint 

Life in Barzakh

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Life_in_Barzakh

https://iqna.ir/en/news/3486213/life-in-barzakh- 

Resurrection (Ma’ad) in the Quran

Ibrahim Amini

https://www.al-islam.org/resurrection-maad-quran-ibrahim-amini/purgatory-barzakh

 

Classic Sunni viewpoint mixed with Wahabi viewpoint

https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/10565/life-in-barzakh-the-period-between-death-and-resurrection

 

[guest 2025]

Hello Ethan. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, then it would be very helpful if you asked God to guide you to His true religion, whichever it may be. But make sure to have a sincere heart and be open to the possibility of being led to a religion that you may have thought would be it.

[Leslie P]

Just to say, I've got as far as the two waters, and will respond!