How to build an ideal / model Muslim community in the West

[JannahLM]

24 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

All that is true but we're speaking comparitively. All the Muslim countries that are economically prosperous like Dubai,UAE, etc, as a Shia or even as a foreigner you basically have no rights. Yes u can make some money and yes you are in a Muslim country but your visa could be yanked away at any moment for any reason. So u never feel secure. 

So maybe u spend 10,20,30 years in Dubai(etc) building a career or building a business then one day some royal decides they don't want u there anymore, kicks u and takes your business and your career is over. I am not saying that couldn't happen in the US / Europe but it is less likely to happen, again based on what I know.

Yes, and I pointed out the poverty of places like Pakistan and Iran here too, but people seem to be in denial about it. Yes, a lot of that poverty is due to western intervention, but that doesn't mean it would magically go away if the west went away. These things take time to sort out. Many parts of Eastern Europe, even 30+ years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, are still impoverished. 

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

then one day some royal decides they don't want u there anymore

But brother this can’t happen easily. Why do you think royal family care about expats? Unless you attack them, they rarely think about others. Brother many information you have is not correct, I do recommend you to learn more about it, not saying you should move to Middle East. Royal families in Middle East rarely care about other people. MBS kills people when they attack him but if someone opened their own business and didn’t do something against the law then nothing will happen. 
 

1 hour ago, JannahLM said:

Yes, a lot of that poverty is due to western intervention, but that doesn't mean it would magically go away if the west went away.

They will go trust me, the only thing west is good at is stealing and murdering innocent. Just let them leave us for a year and see how well developed country we can be. 
by going away I mean they and their puppets that they left as the leaders for Arabs and Muslims should leave. 
 

1 hour ago, JannahLM said:

es, and I pointed out the poverty of places like Pakistan and Iran here too, but people seem to be in denial about it

I didn’t go to Pakistan so I don’t know about it but in Iran if usa remove the sanctions then it can be one of the richest countries in the world. With all these sanctions Iran still managed to one at the top with their culture, food, tourism etc 

[Qa'im]

I wrote about some of the conceptual and logistical difficulties with creating our own "Medina" here:

Ultimately, one needs to do an in-depth study of Islamberg, Baladullah, the Islamic Party of North America, and The Abode of the Message community, and analyze why they failed (and not just because they're "not Shia").

Most places that people can/will immigrate to will be under the power of an existing government. Most of these governments have some unjust tax spending, or their economies are tied up in usury - which is a war against Allah and His Messenger (2:279). Even if we we were to buy an island, which is very expensive, isolated, and very difficult to maintain, it can be easily overpowered by any government.

I generally agree that Western Muslims need an enclave, because Western Muslims are not just diaspora immigrants. The number of converts and multigenerational Muslims in the Western hemisphere justifies having some place we can comfortably call home. Simply put, I am a Westerner. My grandparents left their homeland nearly 80 years ago. I can't just get up and become a citizen of another country - most countries don't allow that, and I'm not accustomed to live in the East. It's not just poverty - that isn't a big problem in some Muslim countries. I can give a very simple example: the "work culture" in the West and in the East is extremely different, even if you're working in the same profession. It's not something that you can just get used to.

On the other hand, there are many Muslim countries already, and while none are perfect, investing to rebuild and improve the condition of these countries is worthwhile. They've subsisted for a long time, and most of them will be around long after we are gone. Most Muslims in the West are assimilating, and while the Muslim world is secularizing too, it is far easier to bounce back to Islam in the Muslim world than it is in the West.

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Yes, and I pointed out the poverty of places like Pakistan and Iran here too, but people seem to be in denial about it. Yes, a lot of that poverty is due to western intervention, but that doesn't mean it would magically go away if the west went away. These things take time to sort out. Many parts of Eastern Europe, even 30+ years after the fall of the Iron Curtain, are still impoverished. 

Salam this is result of too much exaggeration about poverty in Iran by MSM which although there is poverty in Iran but on the other hand it's not likewise yo have seen in exaggerated reports by msm or pre-ordered movies about poverty in Iran by film festivals which the film festivals don't accept a movie from Iran which  shows making progress or having adequate lifestyle which the film festivals  only accept & promote movies which shows exaggerated too dark misery &  impoverishment in Iran by order of the Film Festivals ; which in similar fashion it applies about countries likewise Pakistan & Eastern Europe so therefore  people likewise you in western world accepts propaganda of western msm about extrem poverty in Iran  . 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/13/2024 at 7:13 PM, Qa'im said:

Most Muslims in the West are assimilating, and while the Muslim world is secularizing too, it is far easier to bounce back to Islam in the Muslim world than it is in the West.

Salam this is a bitter matter ; although respectfully I don't agree with secularizing idea which clearly secularizing is greatest obstacle to bounce back to Islam even in the Muslim world which secularism is a dangerous poison for all religions which even people in the West don't accept secularism anymore which westerners especially the Muslims   have been frightened by labeling as fanatics or radicals even terrorists  if they  ask for applying political Islam in the West which name of Sharia or other political terms of Islam have too negative meaning in the West due to heavy propaganda bombardment of it by the West & trying to force secularism into Islam through any means by showing it as a positive thing while in reality it's to negative .

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:16 PM, Diaz said:

May I know which country is this?

Salam at top of list is Bahrain so then KSA which Shia of Bahrain can't have a direct Zyarah into Iran which their direct Zyarah into iraq also is not an easy travel for them which majority of them do indirect Zyarah by pretending to going an entertainment or business trip to Lebanon so then they visit Syria & Iraq & Iran during it which some of them have faced troubles after visiting Iran although of no direct travel to Iran;  which in similar fashion Shias of Qatif can't have a direct Zyarah into Iran likewise Shias of Bahrain  .

 

[notme]

On 9/10/2024 at 8:09 PM, Abu Hadi said:

I think as the power of the Zionists decreases, as it is now, the hatred for Islam and Muslims in the US will also decrease.

I hope this happens in our lifetime.  

Near where I live there is or was a Muslim community, like a small town.  I do not think they are or were Shia, and I can no longer find information about them on the internet.  

I know of another very small community who consider themselves to be a separate nation within the United States, but they seem rather cult-like so I don't want to spread their information.  

People are doing it, but so far nothing seems to have lasted very long.  

[notme]

I'm not currently working in land development and I haven't for a decade, but if you are buying land and want to make a preliminary site plan I'll be happy to help when I have time.  I am not a licensed engineer, so you'd still need someone licensed to review and sign the plan. 

[ireallywannaknow]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:14 PM, Azadeh307 said:

Did the sister you spoke with echo my sentiments that it was an ideal Muslim community in the West or did she have a different perspective? Just curious. 

She said "there were such good times and bad times, it was such a roller coaster ride" and when I told her I would like to chat more about it with her sometime she basically said ask someone else lol, guess she didn't want to delve in for whatever reason. That's all I got from her. 

[JannahLM]

10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is result of too much exaggeration about poverty in Iran by MSM which although there is poverty in Iran but on the other hand it's not likewise yo have seen in exaggerated reports by msm or pre-ordered movies about poverty in Iran by film festivals which the film festivals don't accept a movie from Iran which  shows making progress or having adequate lifestyle which the film festivals  only accept & promote movies which shows exaggerated too dark misery &  impoverishment in Iran by order of the Film Festivals ; which in similar fashion it applies about countries likewise Pakistan & Eastern Europe so therefore  people likewise you in western world accepts propaganda of western msm about extrem poverty in Iran  . 

 

Pretty wild to claim I'm ignorant about poverty in Eastern Europe when like half my family comes from there.

[Qa'im]

On 9/14/2024 at 2:19 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is a bitter matter ; although respectfully I don't agree with secularizing idea which clearly secularizing is greatest obstacle to bounce back to Islam even in the Muslim world which secularism is a dangerous poison for all religions which even people in the West don't accept secularism anymore which westerners especially the Muslims   have been frightened by labeling as fanatics or radicals even terrorists  if they  ask for applying political Islam in the West which name of Sharia or other political terms of Islam have too negative meaning in the West due to heavy propaganda bombardment of it by the West & trying to force secularism into Islam through any means by showing it as a positive thing while in reality it's to negative .

Secularism is definitely deep in the bloodstream of the Muslim world. But we can't dismiss that, in most of the Muslim world, there are daily reminders of Islam (adhan, mosques, daily prayers, some women in hijab, halal food everywhere, Eid decorations, easier access to scholars or institutions). Outside the Muslim world, it becomes much easier to forget Islam altogether.

In the past few years, I've met more Muslims here in the West who feel (for various reasons) that they need to make hijra somewhere. Maybe due to "Islamophobia", maybe due to what public schools are teaching kids nowadays, or failures of the Muslim community to establish proper institutions here, or because they don't want their taxes going to more wars, etc. However, many of them go overseas, and end up coming back after a few years. This is because they can't get citizenship in Muslim countries, or they can't fit into other ethnic groups, or because the work culture is too unbearable from a Westerner's perspective, etc.

In short, I think it is probably easier to build up existing Muslim enclaves (like Dearborn) than it is to buy an island and get people to move to it, only for it to fail after a generation, or only for it to inherit the same problems that exist in the Muslim world or the Western world. Yes it's not ideal that Muslims in Dearborn pay taxes to support foreign wars, but Michigan is also a swing state, and the Muslims there are starting to have an important voice in both domestic and international affairs. Any social problems that exist there will probably also exist anywhere where there are Muslims.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 9/14/2024 at 1:27 AM, Abu Hadi said:

All that is true but we're speaking comparitively. All the Muslim countries that are economically prosperous like Dubai,UAE, etc, as a Shia or even as a foreigner you basically have no rights. Yes u can make some money and yes you are in a Muslim country but your visa could be yanked away at any moment for any reason. So u never feel secure. 

So maybe u spend 10,20,30 years in Dubai(etc) building a career or building a business then one day some royal decides they don't want u there anymore, kicks u and takes your business and your career is over. I am not saying that couldn't happen in the US / Europe but it is less likely to happen, again based on what I know.

Which is why I was saying that if the people concerned are moving to the East expecting an easier life, then they will be disappointed. 

I never held romantic views about hijrah to the East (because I live here and know how things are) except when there is direct persecution and people are no longer free to practice their religion. What I have seen over the years has only strengthened my pre-held beliefs. 

The Muslim demographics in the East are ethnocentric and clannish. They don't accept 'outsiders'. They bring their jahili tribalism to the West as well and form community/ethnicity-exclusive 'religious' establishments. I am a native, but since I am a convert from another religion, without any family, clan or community associations, I am also a perpetual 'outsider'. I don't believe that a revert brother or sister from the West, who is a stranger altogether, will be able to live here comfortably. They don't have any association to the land or its people, and the only association which they possibly have- that of the Shahadatayn- doesn't matter to the people here. I will definitely never recommend any convert to leave their home and move here. 

This is just one of the many practical problems. 

And if you are a Shi'i, it only adds an additional layer of difficulty to your life in most parts of the 'Muslim' world. 

Better stay on and build wherever you are currently based. Work hard and make money. Build your own political interest groups. Build your own educational institutions (the Zaytuna college is a good prototype to build upon and improve) and your own businesses and enterprises (so that the graduates and other skilled workforce from the community can find jobs). Invest in  philanthropy. Once you are influential enough to steer the flow of money and votes in your country, the powers that be will be compelled to listen to you. 

Edited September 15 by AbdusSibtayn

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Pretty wild to claim I'm ignorant about poverty in Eastern Europe when like half my family comes from there.

Salam at first I have not denied poverty in any mentioned countries even in Iran but on the other hand I have mentioned too much exaggeration of it by the west MSM against both of Muslims countries & eastern european countries because still the West has stereotypical mindset against both of Muslims countries & eastern european countries which is based on stereotypical anti communist propaganda which has been extended to Islam by the West ; so therefore poverty in these countries has been mentioned by too much exaggeration while it has been censored in the westerner countries likewise Canada & etc while both of Canda & America has great problem of homeless people which it has been censored by the westerners countries  ; but on the other hand any matter about some examples of poverty in Muslims countries & eastern european countries  has been  too much exaggerated by the West . 

 

Edited September 15 by Ashvazdanghe

[Abu Hadi]

5 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Which is why I was saying that if the people concerned are moving to the East expecting an easier life, then they will be disappointed. 

I never held romantic views about hijrah to the East (because I live here and know how things are) except when there is direct persecution and people are no longer free to practice their religion. What I have seen over the years has only strengthened my pre-held beliefs. 

The Muslim demographics in the East are ethnocentric and clannish. They don't accept 'outsiders'. They bring their jahili tribalism to the West as well and form community/ethnicity-exclusive 'religious' establishments. I am a native, but since I am a convert from another religion, without any family, clan or community associations, I am also a perpetual 'outsider'. I don't believe that a revert brother or sister from the West, who is a stranger altogether, will be able to live here comfortably. They don't have any association to the land or its people, and the only association which they possibly have- that of the Shahadatayn- doesn't matter to the people here. I will definitely never recommend any convert to leave their home and move here. 

This is just one of the many practical problems. 

And if you are a Shi'i, it only adds an additional layer of difficulty to your life in most parts of the 'Muslim' world. 

Better stay on and build wherever you are currently based. Work hard and make money. Build your own political interest groups. Build your own educational institutions (the Zaytuna college is a good prototype to build upon and improve) and your own businesses and enterprises (so that the graduates and other skilled workforce from the community can find jobs). Invest in  philanthropy. Once you are influential enough to steer the flow of money and votes in your country, the powers that be will be compelled to listen to you. 

As the Hadith says 'Islam was once a stranger and it will again be a stranger....'

[JannahLM]

13 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Which is why I was saying that if the people concerned are moving to the East expecting an easier life, then they will be disappointed. 

I never held romantic views about hijrah to the East (because I live here and know how things are) except when there is direct persecution and people are no longer free to practice their religion. What I have seen over the years has only strengthened my pre-held beliefs. 

The Muslim demographics in the East are ethnocentric and clannish. They don't accept 'outsiders'. They bring their jahili tribalism to the West as well and form community/ethnicity-exclusive 'religious' establishments. I am a native, but since I am a convert from another religion, without any family, clan or community associations, I am also a perpetual 'outsider'. I don't believe that a revert brother or sister from the West, who is a stranger altogether, will be able to live here comfortably. They don't have any association to the land or its people, and the only association which they possibly have- that of the Shahadatayn- doesn't matter to the people here. I will definitely never recommend any convert to leave their home and move here. 

This is just one of the many practical problems. 

And if you are a Shi'i, it only adds an additional layer of difficulty to your life in most parts of the 'Muslim' world. 

Better stay on and build wherever you are currently based. Work hard and make money. Build your own political interest groups. Build your own educational institutions (the Zaytuna college is a good prototype to build upon and improve) and your own businesses and enterprises (so that the graduates and other skilled workforce from the community can find jobs). Invest in  philanthropy. Once you are influential enough to steer the flow of money and votes in your country, the powers that be will be compelled to listen to you. 

I have personally experienced this ethnocentrism. Because of it I don't even really have a proper community or even a masjid to attend. I'm stuck trying to be a Muslim all on my own, and having anti-religious family makes it even harder. Sometimes I just consider giving up on all this. Recently I almost did too as I stopped praying for over a month. I don't really know what prompted me to return, but I've been slowly getting more into Islam again. When I do try to practice it's entirely on my own. Almost everything I know about Islam I had to learn on my own. Even just learning salat took many months because of my not knowing Arabic and having terrible memorization skills. All these things would have been far easier had I just had a proper and welcoming community to guide me. My spiritual development is severely stunted due to these circumstances. I've had people assume I'm a fresh convert when in reality I've been a Muslim for years.

This all being said, I wish Shia communities were more open to converts. Sunni communities do not have this problem. Nowhere near the same extent at least as they are already extremely diverse. When it comes to Shia communities, though, you pretty much have either an entirely Arab community or an entirely Desi community (not Persian as Persian Shias barely exist in the west). Both tend to treat their Islamic centres as culture clubs, thus outsiders have a hard time fitting in. At least that has been my experience with the local communities.

Lastly, I should point out that I know apostates, ex-Shia. One of the reasons they cited for leaving was not fitting into the community and basically being tokenized. Eventually they had enough of that and left altogether.

Edited September 15 by JannahLM

[JannahLM]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first I have not denied poverty in any mentioned countries even in Iran but on the other hand I have mentioned too much exaggeration of it by the west MSM against both of Muslims countries & eastern european countries because still the West has stereotypical mindset against both of Muslims countries & eastern european countries which is based on stereotypical anti communist propaganda which has been extended to Islam by the West ; so therefore poverty in these countries has been mentioned by too much exaggeration while it has been censored in the westerner countries likewise Canada & etc while both of Canda & America has great problem of homeless people which it has been censored by the westerners countries  ; but on the other hand any matter about some examples of poverty in Muslims countries & eastern european countries  has been  too much exaggerated by the West . 

 

I wasn't exaggerating anything, though. I stated that there's a lot of poverty in these countries, which is true. I also don't deny that western countries have lots of poverty. I literally am one of those westerners living in poverty. I also see it all around me, Mass homelessness and the other problems that often come with poverty and trying to cope with it, such as drug abuse. I'm actually one of the most outspoken critics about these things. I hate the western capitalist system and how it has allowed these issues to persist, all to make a profit for some billionaire that probably doesn't even live in the country.

In my opinion these should be the issues the left focuses on more rather than the identity politics nonsense. Traditionally, leftist factions did, but then in the 21st century they have shifted towards all these other issues when in reality class conflict is what impacts the widest amount of people. This is why I think leftist movements haven't been able to gain much traction here in recent years, despite all the economic issues. 

[Abu Hadi]

12 hours ago, JannahLM said:

I have personally experienced this ethnocentrism. Because of it I don't even really have a proper community or even a masjid to attend. I'm stuck trying to be a Muslim all on my own, and having anti-religious family makes it even harder. Sometimes I just consider giving up on all this. Recently I almost did too as I stopped praying for over a month. I don't really know what prompted me to return, but I've been slowly getting more into Islam again. When I do try to practice it's entirely on my own. Almost everything I know about Islam I had to learn on my own. Even just learning salat took many months because of my not knowing Arabic and having terrible memorization skills. All these things would have been far easier had I just had a proper and welcoming community to guide me. My spiritual development is severely stunted due to these circumstances. I've had people assume I'm a fresh convert when in reality I've been a Muslim for years.

This all being said, I wish Shia communities were more open to converts. Sunni communities do not have this problem. Nowhere near the same extent at least as they are already extremely diverse. When it comes to Shia communities, though, you pretty much have either an entirely Arab community or an entirely Desi community (not Persian as Persian Shias barely exist in the west). Both tend to treat their Islamic centres as culture clubs, thus outsiders have a hard time fitting in. At least that has been my experience with the local communities.

Lastly, I should point out that I know apostates, ex-Shia. One of the reasons they cited for leaving was not fitting into the community and basically being tokenized. Eventually they had enough of that and left altogether.

While I agree with your analysis, in general, I would put a big * next to it 

I think many reverts have very high and unrealistic expectations about what a local community or a masjid should be like. Islam is a perfect system and because people are not perfect it is an aspirational system. Muslims who are born into the religion and reverts who have been in the community for many years or decades also know this. 

For example, when I go to the masjid I do my Salat or listen to a lecture maybe see a few brothers I know and say Salam maybe a short conversation then I leave and go about my day. Yes, this is very far from ideal and a masjid should offer more services and more options especially for those new to Islam but it isn't a reality at this point. We can aspire to that but we have to accept reality for what it is.

If, as a revert you are insulted or mocked at a masjid then that is wrong and not normal and u should find a different masjid and if there are no others in your area then u should just not go. At the same time this shouldn't be an excuse for someone to leave the religion. There are plenty of other ways to learn and interact with other mumineen and muminat ( online). 

In the West, including the US, masjids are built and financed with individual donations and usually most of those donatiobs come from a few wealthy individuals who then set up the masjid and programs to their own taste. If they are Indo / Pak it will be that or if they are Arab it will be that way. There is a large Iranian / Farsi speaking community in Southern California so if u are there it might be that. This is human nature. I am not saying it is good or Islamic but again, this shouldn't be a reason for someone to leave the religion because there are many alternatives for them especially now days. 

[JannahLM]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

While I agree with your analysis, in general, I would put a big * next to it 

I think many reverts have very high and unrealistic expectations about what a local community or a masjid should be like. Islam is a perfect system and because people are not perfect it is an aspirational system. Muslims who are born into the religion and reverts who have been in the community for many years or decades also know this. 

For example, when I go to the masjid I do my Salat or listen to a lecture maybe see a few brothers I know and say Salam maybe a short conversation then I leave and go about my day. Yes, this is very far from ideal and a masjid should offer more services and more options especially for those new to Islam but it isn't a reality at this point. We can aspire to that but we have to accept reality for what it is.

If, as a revert you are insulted or mocked at a masjid then that is wrong and not normal and u should find a different masjid and if there are no others in your area then u should just not go. At the same time this shouldn't be an excuse for someone to leave the religion. There are plenty of other ways to learn and interact with other mumineen and muminat ( online). 

In the West, including the US, masjids are built and financed with individual donations and usually most of those donatiobs come from a few wealthy individuals who then set up the masjid and programs to their own taste. If they are Indo / Pak it will be that or if they are Arab it will be that way. There is a large Iranian / Farsi speaking community in Southern California so if u are there it might be that. This is human nature. I am not saying it is good or Islamic but again, this shouldn't be a reason for someone to leave the religion because there are many alternatives for them especially now days. 

Well, it's a fact that many people, especially converts, do go to the masjid hoping to socialize and make friends too. It's hard to do either of those when you're faced with linguistic and cultural barriers. The community is important, even more so for converts whose own family and friends may have rejected them for converting. This is largely the case for me. I'm lonely and want at least one Muslim friend, but it's not going to happen when I can't even comfortably attend the local masjids.

Having a sense of community and having others to worship alongside you is a huge aspect of any religion, including Islam. You miss out on a lot by not having either of those factors present.

[AbdusSibtayn]

19 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

As the Hadith says 'Islam was once a stranger and it will again be a stranger....'

سَلَامٌ عَلَى الغُرَبَاء 

[Abu Hadi]

8 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Well, it's a fact that many people, especially converts, do go to the masjid hoping to socialize and make friends too. It's hard to do either of those when you're faced with linguistic and cultural barriers. The community is important, even more so for converts whose own family and friends may have rejected them for converting. This is largely the case for me. I'm lonely and want at least one Muslim friend, but it's not going to happen when I can't even comfortably attend the local masjids.

Having a sense of community and having others to worship alongside you is a huge aspect of any religion, including Islam. You miss out on a lot by not having either of those factors present.

Salam.

You have more than one friend here. I know that's far from ideal but it's not nothing. Lol. It's a start

[Abu Hadi]

10 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Well, it's a fact that many people, especially converts, do go to the masjid hoping to socialize and make friends too. It's hard to do either of those when you're faced with linguistic and cultural barriers. The community is important, even more so for converts whose own family and friends may have rejected them for converting. This is largely the case for me. I'm lonely and want at least one Muslim friend, but it's not going to happen when I can't even comfortably attend the local masjids.

Having a sense of community and having others to worship alongside you is a huge aspect of any religion, including Islam. You miss out on a lot by not having either of those factors present.

I don't know where you are in Canada but I'm guessing it's not in the GTA or Ontario or Vancouver or in the Windsor area. I know Canada is a huge country and most of it is sparsely populated.  I think as a last resort you might want to reconsider moving to one of those areas as each has large Muslim communities and within those communities you will probably find a section of Muslims that you can get along with as these communities are very diverse and there are also other reverts in these areas, and I know some of them personally in my time with RMA (Revert Muslims Association, based in Canada, which I don't think exists anymore). 

[JannahLM]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I don't know where you are in Canada but I'm guessing it's not in the GTA or Ontario or Vancouver or in the Windsor area. I know Canada is a huge country and most of it is sparsely populated.  I think as a last resort you might want to reconsider moving to one of those areas as each has large Muslim communities and within those communities you will probably find a section of Muslims that you can get along with as these communities are very diverse and there are also other reverts in these areas, and I know some of them personally in my time with RMA (Revert Muslims Association, based in Canada, which I don't think exists anymore). 

Yea, I'm not in either of those places. I'm from Vancouver originally and have been trying to find a way to move back, but it's easier said than done. Everything is so expensive so I'm basically trapped. Plus there's the whole factor of trying to find a job, which has always been something I struggle with.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:39 PM, JannahLM said:

In my opinion these should be the issues the left focuses on more rather than the identity politics nonsense. Traditionally, leftist factions did, but then in the 21st century they have shifted towards all these other issues when in reality class conflict is what impacts the widest amount of people. This is why I think leftist movements haven't been able to gain much traction here in recent years, despite all the economic issues. 

Postmodernism cannibalized socialism from within the wider Left movement.

The older representatives of the traditional Marxist-Leninist Left (derisively called 'tankies')- the old party workers, trade unionists, and even academics and student leaders-  were generally themselves from marginalized or oppressed backgrounds, hardworking, struggle-hardened, grounded and ready-to-listen people with organic ties to the working class and worldwide anti-imperialist currents. Here I mean people like Huey P. Newton and other members of the Black Panthers Party in the US, or the author Michael Parenti.

The 'Leftists' of today are shut up in their own liberal university campuses and departments, have no life beyond their ivory towers in the academia or the upper echelons of the corporate media and thus no organic ties with the working class, mostly from elite backgrounds with generational wealth, are either active compradors of imperialism (most of them are pawns of the Democrats in the US or the Labours in Britain) or token opponents of, but useful idiots for the imperialists who spout the same agenda, and prioritize obnoxious race and gender politics and sexual depravity over fighting for the poor.

Young college-going Muslims fall for their 'inclusion' and 'tolerance' but do not know what they truly represent.

 

Edited September 17 by AbdusSibtayn

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 9/16/2024 at 4:40 AM, Abu Hadi said:

In the West, including the US, masjids are built and financed with individual donations and usually most of those donatiobs come from a few wealthy individuals who then set up the masjid and programs to their own taste. If they are Indo / Pak it will be that or if they are Arab it will be that way. There is a large Iranian / Farsi speaking community in Southern California so if u are there it might be that.

Now, let us compare this to the ambiance of the Masjid al-Nabawi in the days of Rasoolallah (S).

In that mud and palm-thatch nucleus of Islam, the wealthy merchants from among the Muhajirun, the affluent landowners from among the Ansar and the well-heeled camel-herders from among the Badawy ashaab did not have any more of a voice and were not any more welcome than the Ashaab al-Suffah, who had barely enough to cover themselves and did not know where their next meal would come from.

The sister above and I are not disputing how things are. Our concern is more about how things were meant to be, and how they should have been, and should be in the future.

[JannahLM]

20 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Postmodernism cannibalized socialism from within the wider Left movement.

The older representatives of the traditional Marxist-Leninist Left (derisively called 'tankies')- the old party workers, trade unionists, and even academics and student leaders-  were generally themselves from marginalized or oppressed backgrounds, hardworking, struggle-hardened, grounded and ready-to-listen people with organic ties to the working class and worldwide anti-imperialist currents. Here I mean people like Huey P. Newton and other members of the Black Panthers Party in the US, or the author Michael Parenti.

The 'Leftists' of today are shut up in their own liberal university campuses and departments, have no life beyond their ivory towers in the academia or the upper echelons of the corporate media and thus no organic ties with the working class, mostly from elite backgrounds with generational wealth, are either active compradors of imperialism (most of them are pawns of the Democrats in the US or the Labours in Britain) or token opponents of, but useful idiots for the imperialists who spout the same agenda, and prioritize obnoxious race and gender politics and sexual depravity over fighting for the poor.

Young college-going Muslims fall for their 'inclusion' and 'tolerance' but do not know what they truly represent.

 

Yes, I'd say this is pretty accurate. Those of us that represent the genuine left are pretty rare these days. Unlike those ivory tower types I actually am from a working class background too. Poverty has been a lifelong struggle for myself and even my family, thus I was disillusioned with capitalism and the status quo from a pretty young age. I feel like the ivory tower types wouldn't last in an actual revolutionary scenario. Most of them would either not be able to fight or wouldn't last long in a fight. I feel like I would be able to as I have nothing to lose at this point.

As for Muslims, supporting those types, well, it's because they claim to be against Islamophobia. However, they never fully accept us unless we're willing to surrender our Islamic values, such as accepting homosexual activity. I know Muslims, typically converts, who have fallen into this trap hard. Many of them are even in gay relationships and see nothing wrong with it Islamically.

[mahmood8726]

On 9/8/2024 at 8:34 AM, Abu Hadi said:

There are many millions of Muslims who were born and raised in the West. They want to live in a society that reflects their values

If u tell a Muslim who was born and raised in the West to just move to a Muslim country it's not that simple. Also like others have said there are many Muslim countries that only use the name but the actual systems of the country have nothing to do with Islam.

Yes, I want it to exist for real. It already exists in my imagination. 

I don't want to sound harsh, but unfortunatley it will remain an imaginary place.

 

A place free of haram in the west is unfeasable when their core system itself promotes degeneracy. In the west, you're going to struggle with haram and it will get worse and worse until it becomes unbearable. Simply put, without an Islamic state, you just can't expect to have an Islamic community that is free from haram or mostly free from haram, especially when said western countries are pouring billions and billions into destroying Islam.

Unfortunatley it will get harder and harder, they will for example make laws to force women to not wear hijab as it "threatens their secular values", they will discriminate more, they will tell muslims more and more to "reform", etc... this is inevitable and there is nothing we can do to stop it, it's already in full swing, most people have been brainwashed. The best thing to do if we live there is to hold tight to the quran and ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

Edited September 18 by Hussein999

[Abu Hadi]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:14 PM, JannahLM said:

Yea, I'm not in either of those places. I'm from Vancouver originally and have been trying to find a way to move back, but it's easier said than done. Everything is so expensive so I'm basically trapped. Plus there's the whole factor of trying to find a job, which has always been something I struggle with.

You might want to think about starting your own business. Especially now with platforms like Amazon and Etsy where u can get set up in literally minutes it's a lot easier than in the old days. Maybe some brothers or sisters here that do this ( and I'm sure there are many) could give u advice. I know it's difficult for practicing Muslim/a to fit into the corporate world. There are alternatives

[Azadeh307]

On 9/14/2024 at 8:50 AM, ireallywannaknow said:

She said "there were such good times and bad times, it was such a roller coaster ride" and when I told her I would like to chat more about it with her sometime she basically said ask someone else lol, guess she didn't want to delve in for whatever reason. That's all I got from her. 

Thank you for letting me know. She probably knows best since I was just a kid at that time and she had a mature perspective. 

[JannahLM]

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

You might want to think about starting your own business. Especially now with platforms like Amazon and Etsy where u can get set up in literally minutes it's a lot easier than in the old days. Maybe some brothers or sisters here that do this ( and I'm sure there are many) could give u advice. I know it's difficult for practicing Muslim/a to fit into the corporate world. There are alternatives

Easier said than done. To start a business you need a marketable skill or product. You also need social connections to get your product out there. Not to mention that if your business fails you need a social safety net to fall back on, such as family and friends that have the financial capacity to keep you afloat. I have none of these things.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:40 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I think many reverts have very high and unrealistic expectations about what a local community or a masjid should be like. Islam is a perfect system and because people are not perfect it is an aspirational system. Muslims who are born into the religion and reverts who have been in the community for many years or decades also know this. 

Salam ironically I have seen some speeches of Mr. Raefipoor about ideal Mahdavi community which he has general has talked in a series of his speech about it which is also applicable for making ideal/model Muslims community in the West which one of main ideas for Muslims in the West is about increasing pilgrimage of Westerner muslims from Shia sacred sites at least once a year based on  example of visit of queen of Sheba/Saba with prophet solomon (عليه السلام) which the Queen of Sheba/Saba came from a wealthy country with strong army although being worshippers of sun which in our era  it's example can be America in our era which at first she knew her country & nation superior religious community  of prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) so therefore she has offered wealth or fight to prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) which when both of it has been rejected by prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام) but on the other hand invited her to his kingdom which after showing great signs which leads to accepting Islam by her so then maybe her country ; so therefore although Westerner Muslims may have good lifestyle in the West  but they need to do pilgrimage as much as possible for them likewise at least once a year in order to find "an aspirational system" which in result of their pilgrimage likewise increasing their spirituality or maybe seeing some signs so then  they may find solutions & tricks for making an ideal/model Muslim community in the West .

On 9/15/2024 at 1:36 PM, Abu Hadi said:

As the Hadith says 'Islam was once a stranger and it will again be a stranger....'

 

[notme]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:20 AM, Abu Hadi said:

You might want to think about starting your own business. Especially now with platforms like Amazon and Etsy where u can get set up in literally minutes it's a lot easier than in the old days. Maybe some brothers or sisters here that do this ( and I'm sure there are many) could give u advice. I know it's difficult for practicing Muslim/a to fit into the corporate world. There are alternatives

The problems with Amazon are they will steal the majority of your profit and your product will be buried under millions of other products. I do not know much about Etsy, but I have read that they also take an unreasonable cut from your profit. It seems better to work locally, such a a farmers or artisans market, or to create your own product website.

Edited September 28 by notme
typo