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In the Name of God بسم الله

How to build an ideal / model Muslim community in the West

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Bismillah. 

I have heard many ideas on this topic. Everything from buy some land and x,y,z to making an Islamic University in the US (A real one, lol) even to buying an island or a cruise ship and declaring it an Islamic Republic. 

I don't know if any of these ideas are actually possible or feasible, but I would like to hear people's ideas. BTW, it doesn't have to be the US, just a large Western Country where there are alot of Muslims. List includes US, Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand / other European Countries. 

The goal is to have a large community where Muslims who live in the West could work and earn a living in a Western Country, as they do now, but at the same time live in a community that is free from Haram and / or compulsion to follow non muslims ideologies or rules and where the Deen could be practiced in every aspect. An essential component of this is to have a just and knowledgeable leadership. 

BTW I don't want posts to focus on Shia/Sunni differences. There are many Muslim communities in the US and other places (including Dearborn where I live) where Shia and Sunni live together, are friends, visit each others masajid, etc, and don't have any significant conflicts. The conflicts are almost always caused by outsider agitators.

Also, if this ever happens anywhere, even outside the US, I will move there and my family will move there. I will also help in setting it up. The first thing I will look at though, is the leadership. 

Also, some people will say that Dearborn is the ideal Muslims community in the US and actually there are many Muslim families from other states who are moving here at this point. It is not a bad place to live but it is very far from an ideal community. The main reason (there are also other reasons) is that many of us pay up to 30% of our income in taxes and billions of dollars of these taxes go to support Zionism and the genocide of our brothers and sisters in Palestine and other places. This money is taken from us by force without our consent. If the community was ideal in every other way I was talking about (and it isn't, btw) just that one fact alone would be enough for me to want to move somewhere else so that I didn't have to have my money go to support Zionism. I am looking for that community and I will continue to look till I move on to the next phase of existence. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Why west tho? I don't understand, And you want it to happen for real or just imagination? 

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I think Muslims should continue living in the West, wherever they are now or in places where large Muslim communities are present like Dearborn which you have mentioned. Simply because it will negate the bad version of our religion that has been present in the West as well as to sway public opinion on matters like Palestine. Our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) changed people's perceptions with their own examples and that cannot happen if non-Muslims in the west are isolated from those following Islam's teachings.

You may ask Muslims living in the Muslim countries about the way they are living their lives and how their taxes are being used. I can point to many such countries where the Government is Islamic but only that. They won't allow free press or freedom of speech or even people coming out in support of Palestine. Whereas in West, despite all the issues, you have always had big rallies happening against Wars and now even for Palestine where folks from every religion, not just Islam, come out and are allowed. Sure, they arrest there too and they try to do other things as well to discourage people but those places are not kidnapping the people who raise their voices?

As of today, I don't think there's a place present on this earth that can claim to be just and which doesn't have blood of the innocent on its hands - directly or indirectly. No one can claim that until Rise of the Qaim (ajtf). May Allah give us the chance to witness his Government and to be in his supporters.

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16 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

The main reason (there are also other reasons) is that many of us pay up to 30% of our income in taxes and billions of dollars of these taxes go to support Zionism and the genocide of our brothers and sisters in Palestine and other places. This money is taken from us by force without our consent. If the community was ideal in every other way I was talking about (and it isn't, btw) just that one fact alone would be enough for me to want to move somewhere else so that I didn't have to have my money go to support Zionism. I am looking for that community and I will continue to look till I move on to the next phase of existence

Salam as brother @Abu Hadi has mentioned currently main concern is about paying taxes in favor of muslim community  specially Palestinians   & not supporting Zionism which needs making a self reliant community which at least members of community can pay minimum tax for supporting Zionism which paying tax to government for receiving basic citizenship services is inevitable but it needs to dedicate taxes for welfare of muslim community not losing it for supporting "Zionism and  the genocide of our brothers and sisters in Palestine and other places." but on the other hand the community must have interaction with outside world & other people & communities in order to introduce true version of religion & supporting oppressed people & introducing true image of Islam & Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to western community to all of western community ; which maybe some people prefer example of Shia community in France which it's pros is that it  has been formed in a private farm which is a self reliant community but on the other hand one o great cons is too much isolation from outside world due to being a far awy place inside woods which doesn't receive citizenship service from government of France  likewise suffering of not having an adequate road  although & etc although of paying taxes & obeying all rules even being secular by the French Shia community . 

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5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

There are many millions of Muslims who were born and raised in the West. They want to live in a society that reflects their values

If u tell a Muslim who was born and raised in the West to just move to a Muslim country it's not that simple. Also like others have said there are many Muslim countries that only use the name but the actual systems of the country have nothing to do with Islam.

Yes, I want it to exist for real. It already exists in my imagination. 

Exactly. It's not so easy. Most Islamic countries are much poorer than western countries so just the poverty and lower living standards alone would be a lot for the average westerner to adjust to. Not to mention all the cultural and linguistic barriers. Not all of us are multilingual and fluent in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc.

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54 minutes ago, JannahLM said:

Exactly. It's not so easy. Most Islamic countries are much poorer than western countries so just the poverty and lower living standards alone would be a lot for the average westerner to adjust to. Not to mention all the cultural and linguistic barriers. Not all of us are multilingual and fluent in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc.

That's actually not true at all. Many arab and muslim countries speak english fluently and they are not that poor. Like malaysia, kuwait, qatar etc has good economy and are fluent in english. I understand it's not easy to move from your country to other country with different culture and language but sometimes when we do something for the sake of allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then maybe our life will be different and better than what we expected. I'm not saying muslims shouldn't live in the west, but if some non muslims are leaving their country and prefer to live in arabic country (like persian arabian gulf whatever) then there is something wrong with that country. Anyway I don't have the right to talk because I don't live in the west, may allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hasten the reappearance of imam mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). 

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7 hours ago, Diaz said:

That's actually not true at all. Many arab and muslim countries speak english fluently and they are not that poor. Like malaysia, kuwait, qatar etc has good economy and are fluent in english. I understand it's not easy to move from your country to other country with different culture and language but sometimes when we do something for the sake of allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then maybe our life will be different and better than what we expected. I'm not saying muslims shouldn't live in the west, but if some non muslims are leaving their country and prefer to live in arabic country (like persian arabian gulf whatever) then there is something wrong with that country. Anyway I don't have the right to talk because I don't live in the west, may allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hasten the reappearance of imam mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). 

Note that I said MOST. I wasn't thinking about the Gulf when I made my statement as those are like the few wealthy Muslim countries. Compared to countries like, say, Pakistan and Iran, the west is much wealthier.

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6 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Note that I said MOST. I wasn't thinking about the Gulf when I made my statement as those are like the few wealthy Muslim countries. Compared to countries like, say, Pakistan and Iran, the west is much wealthier.

Salam , at first repectfully it's "Persian gulf" also your imagination about muslim countries  has been based on negative image of msm against countries likewise Iran & Pakistan which although all of countries in west Asia region are suffering from mismanagement of their resources due to affection from colonialism of the West ; but on the other hand these countries are much wealthier than west which the west has looted their resources for centuries which without looting these countries the West would be most poor continent which the West is good at doing show off & doing propaganda about showing miserable image from the west Asian countries besides of showing stereotypical wealthy Arabs who from their allies likewise KSA while they have been censoring poverty in the West & their allied Arab countries likewise KSA which causes people in the West have hallucination about being wealthy in the West which this negative propaganda & hallucination  is much worse in Canada than other westerner countries which in most  of times  Canadian users  have had more negative hallucination than Americans  about islamic countries specially against Iran due to supporting government of Canada from anti Iranian & anti Islamic groups & being more pro Zionist even more than America   ; although you have been looted through unfair taxes for fueling  war in the West Asia & supporting Zionism.

14 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Exactly. It's not so easy. Most Islamic countries are much poorer than western countries so just the poverty and lower living standards alone would be a lot for the average westerner to adjust to. Not to mention all the cultural and linguistic barriers. Not all of us are multilingual and fluent in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc.

The hallucination is result of affecting with Westerner propaganda against Islamic countries which you have been fed by MSM ;which as @Diaz has mentioned the cultural & linguistic barrier is not likewise the hallucination which being fluent in Arabic , Farsi, Urdu , etc  is not required precondition which you can find many people who are fluent in English & other westerner languages which are ready help foreigners from West with lowest price just for exercising their learned language & becoming more fluent by being in contact with foreigners in their countries. 

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9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , at first repectfully it's "Persian gulf" also your imagination about muslim countries  has been based on negative image of msm against countries likewise Iran & Pakistan which although all of countries in west Asia region are suffering from mismanagement of their resources due to affection from colonialism of the West ; but on the other hand these countries are much wealthier than west which the west has looted their resources for centuries which without looting these countries the West would be most poor continent which the West is good at doing show off & doing propaganda about showing miserable image from the west Asian countries besides of showing stereotypical wealthy Arabs who from their allies likewise KSA while they have been censoring poverty in the West & their allied Arab countries likewise KSA which causes people in the West have hallucination about being wealthy in the West which this negative propaganda & hallucination  is much worse in Canada than other westerner countries which in most  of times  Canadian users  have had more negative hallucination than Americans  about islamic countries specially against Iran due to supporting government of Canada from anti Iranian & anti Islamic groups & being more pro Zionist even more than America   ; although you have been looted through unfair taxes for fueling  war in the West Asia & supporting Zionism.

The hallucination is result of affecting with Westerner propaganda against Islamic countries which you have been fed by MSM ;which as @Diaz has mentioned the cultural & linguistic barrier is not likewise the hallucination which being fluent in Arabic , Farsi, Urdu , etc  is not required precondition which you can find many people who are fluent in English & other westerner languages which are ready help foreigners from West with lowest price just for exercising their learned language & becoming more fluent by being in contact with foreigners in their countries. 

Brother u know everything, are u an ai? :shifty:

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On 9/8/2024 at 2:51 PM, Diaz said:

That's actually not true at all. Many arab and muslim countries speak english fluently and they are not that poor. Like malaysia, kuwait, qatar etc has good economy and are fluent in english. I understand it's not easy to move from your country to other country with different culture and language but sometimes when we do something for the sake of allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then maybe our life will be different and better than what we expected. I'm not saying muslims shouldn't live in the west, but if some non muslims are leaving their country and prefer to live in arabic country (like persian arabian gulf whatever) then there is something wrong with that country. Anyway I don't have the right to talk because I don't live in the west, may allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hasten the reappearance of imam mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). 

I have never lived in any of these countries, but there are many brothers here in the US who have lived in these countries. What they tell me is that if you want to make a living in those countries that is equivalent to a 'middle class' life in the US, you need to fall into one of three categories

1. You have ties to the Royal families of these countries either thru blood or marriage or kinship. 

2. You need to have a skill that is in high demand like a specialist doctor, a petroleum engineer, etc. 

3. You need to be a wealthy person already, i.e. have alot of money to invest in real estate or some highly profitable business venture. 

I think amoung the Muslims in the US, less than 1% of them fall into any of these categories, so they don't go. 

The difference between the US and those countries is that in the US there is actually some kind of an actual 'labor market', i.e. a free market where you can sell your labor to different companies or organizations. Yes, there are definitely problems with this market such as vast wealth inequality which drives other sorts of inequalities (education, health, etc), and that is why I said 'some kind' and not a real labor market. Even with it's problems, it is still more of a real 'labor market' vs the countries you mentioned, which is why the US has a larger middle class vs those countries, although the middle class is shrinking in the US due to wealth inequality. It is still much larger than the countries you mentioned so there is more hope here that someone who is a Muslim can actually make it to the middle class and live a life with some dignity. 

I haven't met many practicing Muslims that actually desire to be wealthy, i.e. have mansions, super cars, etc. What they want is just to have a house that is big enough to accomodate them and their family, have an opportunity to give their children decent education and health care, live in a place that is safe and has infrastructure that actually functions (electricity, water, sewer, trash service, etc), and be safe themselves and have safety for their family and be allowed to practice their religion without hindrance or harassment. They also want to have a career where they can utilize their skills and where they are treated with respect and compensated fairly based on their skills and education. This is what I would describe as the ideal Muslim community. Like I said before, this doesn't actually exist anywhere at the present time, but it exists in the US more than these other countries you mentioned, again based on the info that I have. 

The 'edge' that the US has in this area over the countries you mentioned is shrinking due to corruption and inequality. There might reach a point in the future where the countries you mentioned look more attractive vs the US (West). It hasn't reached that point yet, which is why you don't see a mass migration. 

Some people say that you should just forget about this and just move 'fe sibilillah' and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will help you. IMHO, this isn't proper thinking. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in the Holy Quran, 'Don't kill (harm) yourselves while you know'. This verse is more than just a prohibition of suicide, which most people take it as. It also is about not putting yourself or your family in harms way without a good reason. If you move without a plan, without good options about a means to survive, then you are putting yourself and your family in harms way and thus going against the verse in the Holy Quran. Things like a military jihad are different because these are ordered by marjaa' taqleed and there is a precedent for this kind of exception in Islam going back to the time of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). At the same time, there is a good reason for this (defending Islam, defending your country from invaders, etc). 

In the West at the current time, yes there is all sorts of corruption and haram around every corner. A the same time, although it is difficult, it is possible to avoid this haram at this point. THat might change in the future and if it does we will probably be having a different conversation about this. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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58 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

In the West at the current time, yes there is all sorts of corruption and haram around every corner. A the same time, although it is difficult, it is possible to avoid this haram at this point. THat might change in the future and if it does we will probably be having a different conversation about this. 

Salam respectfully from my point of view there won't be any hope for changing situation into good in countries likewise US because Christianity in any form  can't stand against this spreading corruption which also woke groups & LGBT groups & other anti religion groups will be become more stronger & influential in all aspects of life in US & other Westerner countries which stereotypical response is that only Islam can save US & other westerner countries but unfortunately majority of converts have converted to deviated American-KSA backed or Sufi-Turkish  Islam which number of converts to true version of Islam is too low due to creating too negative image from it in MSM which even some muslims are opposing true version of Islam which even some Shias have opposed it because they consider it as Iranian regime Islam due to their interest into secularism or considering Islam as personal religion which they want to do reformation in it to make it pure from Innovations of political Islam of Iranian regime !!!! 

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On 9/10/2024 at 5:07 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I have never lived in any of these countries, but there are many brothers here in the US who have lived in these countries. What they tell me is that if you want to make a living in those countries that is equivalent to a 'middle class' life in the US, you need to fall into one of three categories

1. You have ties to the Royal families of these countries either thru blood or marriage or kinship. 

2. You need to have a skill that is in high demand like a specialist doctor, a petroleum engineer, etc. 

3. You need to be a wealthy person already, i.e. have alot of money to invest in real estate or some highly profitable business venture. 

None of these are true at all. I studied in Indian school, right now almost all teachers who taught me left the country and open their own business after purchasing their own house/assets. They are only teachers, their salary is less than $2000-$2500 per month yet they manage to have their own property and businesses. My maths teacher has her own private clinic, my chemistry teacher has his own private school, my taxi driver opened his own pharmacy and now his brother is working in it. Yes I know when we compare rich countries with south asian countries, we can see their economy is not that strong but it always depend on the way how you spend your money. It depend on your lifestyle brother, arabs usually love to spend a lot of money and you already know this. What we expats (that's what they call us) usually do is live and work and earn as much as we can and then own a property\businesses in our own country and leave for good. My aunt work in a multi billionaire company, they pay her salary on time, medical insurance, pay her internal bill and give her bonus per year, she live in an apartment that provide free electricity yet she doesn't have anything in our country, because she spend money a lot and she believe she is lower than a middle class even tho she has a lot of benefits and she earn $4000+ per month and we don't have taxes too. Alhamdulillah I was never discriminated because of my faith. However I do agree about other things you said like opening your own business and freedom of speech since the expats doesn't have the right to protest. But if any company enslave them then they have the right to complain and the government will always stand with them. 

I do recommend you to do your own research instead of only relying on others, because half of the info you have are incorrect. Ask non muslims who lived in qatar, Bahrain, kuwait etc how was their experience and I guarantee almost all of them will say something positive. And if you need to know something else, feel free to PM me at anytime brother. I apologize to anyone who thinks I am not attacking muslims who love or prefer to live in the west since mashallah there are a lot but majority of them are discriminated specially in europe. 

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There was an ideal Muslim community in the West I had the pleasure of knowing when I was child. It was called Bayt Al Deen and was in Blanco, Texas. The community was founded by Sheikh Fadhallah Haeri. The community lasted about 10 years. Here is a link to it: 

 

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12 minutes ago, Azadeh307 said:

There was an ideal Muslim community in the West I had the pleasure of knowing when I was child. It was called Bayt Al Deen and was in Blanco, Texas. The community was founded by Sheikh Fadhallah Haeri. The community lasted about 10 years. Here is a link to it: 

 

That's interesting. I never knew about this community. So why did it only last 10 years ? What happened

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2 hours ago, Diaz said:

None of these are true at all. I studied in Indian school, right now almost all teachers who taught me left the country and open their own business after purchasing their own house/assets. They are only teachers, their salary is less than $2000-$2500 per month yet they manage to have their own property and businesses. My maths teacher has her own private clinic, my chemistry teacher has his own private school, my taxi driver opened his own pharmacy and now his brother is working in it. Yes I know when we compare rich countries with south asian countries, we can see their economy is not that strong but it always depend on the way how you spend your money. It depend on your lifestyle brother, arabs usually love to spend a lot of money and you already know this. What we expats (that's what they call us) usually do is live and work and earn as much as we can and then own a property\businesses in our own country and leave for good. My aunt work in a multi billionaire company, they pay her salary on time, medical insurance, pay her internal bill and give her bonus per year, she live in an apartment that provide free electricity yet she doesn't have anything in our country, because she spend money a lot and she believe she is lower than a middle class even tho she has a lot of benefits and she earn $4000+ per month and we don't have taxes too. Alhamdulillah I was never discriminated because of my faith. However I do agree about other things you said like opening your own business and freedom of speech since the expats doesn't have the right to protest. But if any company enslave them then they have the right to complain and the government will always stand with them. 

I do recommend you to do your own research instead of only relying on others, because half of the info you have are incorrect. Ask non muslims who lived in qatar, Bahrain, kuwait etc how was their experience and I guarantee almost all of them will say something positive. And if you need to know something else, feel free to PM me at anytime brother. I apologize to anyone who thinks I am not attacking muslims who love or prefer to live in the west since mashallah there are a lot but majority of them are discriminated specially in europe. 

 

 

Like I mentioned I never lived in these countries so I am hearing it secondhand. At the same time I have known at least 5 brothers, who are Arab, who grew up in the US and moved back to try and establish a life in a Muslim country. They all came back to the US after a few years and all their stories were similar. They are Arab and speak Arabic fluently so no language barrier. So what chance does someone who doesn't know the language have. 

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1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

That's interesting. I never knew about this community. So why did it only last 10 years ? What happened

Haeri to England and in the years after that after the community slowly fell apart. He wrote a book called, "Son of Karbala," where he discusses growing up in Karbala. https://www.amazon.com/Son-Karbala-Spiritual-Journey-Muslim/dp/1905047517

 

An exert about Bayt Al Deen that I found online at https://dspace.uni.lodz.pl/xmlui/bitstream/handle/11089/32607/73-82-yarosh.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y is below:

"Another notable community, consisting of the followers of the Sheikh Fadhlalla Haeri, arose in 1980 in the county of Blanco, near the city of San Antonio in Texas. In 1981 the Bayt al-Deen complex (the House of Religion) was built here, which included a mosque, a madrasah for western students, and a residential sector. According to the plan of the Sheikh Fadhlalla, Bayt al-Deen was to emulate the community of the first Muslims in Medina. At that time Sheikh Fadhlalla was closely associated with Sheikh Abdalqadir and was his amir (representative) in Blanco. Since 1982 the Sheikh Fadhallah has started independent activities as the leader of the tariqa Haydariyya-Shadhiliyya. After the Sheikh Fadhlalla moved to London in 1985, the community gradually began to decline and in 1996 finally ceased to exist."

Haeri and his family now live in South Africa and have a community there, although his daughter Muna and his son in law Abbas are active in running it, as Sheikh Fadhlalla is almost 90 now. 

 

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I don't think it's a good idea.

Build a community, but don't build a community separate from the rest of society.

Look what happened to so many successful towns built by black Americans. The hatred toward Muslims now is similar to the hatred faced by Black People in the early part of the 1900s. It doesn't seem safe.

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I actually believe that the hatred toward Islam and Muslims was created and echoed by Zionists and their agents. I think as the power of the Zionists decreases, as it is now, the hatred for Islam and Muslims in the US will also decrease. Also, I think Americans are reverting to Islam in greater numbers than in the past. Almost every week now, I am either seeing or hearing about a reversion in a Shia Masjid or center in the US. In Dearborn, we have had at least 50 or 60 so far this year that I know of. In the past, before Oct 7, 2023, we might get maybe 10 per year. Also, I am seeing more White, American men converting to Islam which was considered unusual in the past but is getting less and less unusual although it is still not common. 

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4 hours ago, notme said:

I don't think it's a good idea.

Build a community, but don't build a community separate from the rest of society.

Look what happened to so many successful towns built by black Americans. The hatred toward Muslims now is similar to the hatred faced by Black People in the early part of the 1900s. It doesn't seem safe.

So is Dearborn and Hamtramck safe for the moment, so Tulsa or Rosewood wouldn't happen to them?

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On 9/10/2024 at 10:56 AM, Azadeh307 said:

There was an ideal Muslim community in the West I had the pleasure of knowing when I was child. It was called Bayt Al Deen and was in Blanco, Texas. The community was founded by Sheikh Fadhallah Haeri. The community lasted about 10 years. Here is a link to it: 

 

I wonder if this is the same community that a lot of the elder Americans came from and speak about in my community, I know it was in Texas and was Sufi influenced. Do you know if a lot of members ended up in North Carolina? 

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4 hours ago, ireallywannaknow said:

Do you know if a lot of members ended up in North Carolina? 

I believe there is a person named Hajj Mustafa (David) Sterling living in North Carolina who used to be at Bayt Al Deen in Texas. Some of the others from the Texas community are in a WhatsApp group and meet online from all over the world on Thursdays even though they are physically no longer living together on one 140 acre property. I was only 7 when we went and we ended up moving to California in 1989 so left the community when it was probably at its peak. We didn't live there but we would go on Thursdays and some of the elders I reconnected with in the WhatsApp group told me who used to baby sit my brothers and I. 

 

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2 hours ago, Azadeh307 said:

I believe there is a person named Hajj Mustafa (David) Sterling living in North Carolina who used to be at Bayt Al Deen in Texas. Some of the others from the Texas community are in a WhatsApp group and meet online from all over the world on Thursdays even though they are physically no longer living together on one 140 acre property. I was only 7 when we went and we ended up moving to California in 1989 so left the community when it was probably at its peak. We didn't live there but we would go on Thursdays and some of the elders I reconnected with in the WhatsApp group told me who used to baby sit my brothers and I. 

 

So I asked one of the sisters I know and yes that is the same community. There are about 7 people I know from there that live here now. I have not heard of that brother you mentioned however. I am going to ask her more about that community iA, it is very interesting. 

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1 hour ago, ireallywannaknow said:

So I asked one of the sisters I know and yes that is the same community. There are about 7 people I know from there that live here now. I have not heard of that brother you mentioned however. I am going to ask her more about that community iA, it is very interesting. 

That is very cool! Thank you for letting me know. :) 

Please give them my salaams. 

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On 9/11/2024 at 12:10 AM, Lion of Shia said:

So is Dearborn and Hamtramck safe for the moment, so Tulsa or Rosewood wouldn't happen to them?

The Community in Dearborn is not like those because it is fully integrated into the surrounding communities. The Muslim community of Southeast Michigan (included Hamtramck and Dearborn and other smaller communities)  is estimated to be about 300,000 people. The total population of Southeast Michigan is about 3 million. There are no government statistics on this because the US government doesn't gather census data based on religion. These are estimates done by private groups like Gallup, etc. At the same time, from what I have seen, I think this number is fairly accurate. 

Of those 300,000 only about 15 to 20% are very to somewhat connected to the religion, meaning they attend masjid, go to programs, etc. The other, much larger group are Muslim in name only. At the same time, if a group or the government were to do something to attack them physically, like what is happening in gaza or even something less than that, you would have a mass uprising, at least in the area. So I highly doubt this would happen, at least in this area. 

Dearborn was a much smaller community before 9/11. After 9/11, you had a large migration of Muslim families to this area for safety reasons. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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On 9/10/2024 at 7:15 PM, Diaz said:

None of these are true at all. I studied in Indian school, right now almost all teachers who taught me left the country and open their own business after purchasing their own house/assets. They are only teachers, their salary is less than $2000-$2500 per month yet they manage to have their own property and businesses. My maths teacher has her own private clinic, my chemistry teacher has his own private school, my taxi driver opened his own pharmacy and now his brother is working in it. Yes I know when we compare rich countries with south asian countries, we can see their economy is not that strong but it always depend on the way how you spend your money. It depend on your lifestyle brother, arabs usually love to spend a lot of money and you already know this. What we expats (that's what they call us) usually do is live and work and earn as much as we can and then own a property\businesses in our own country and leave for good. My aunt work in a multi billionaire company, they pay her salary on time, medical insurance, pay her internal bill and give her bonus per year, she live in an apartment that provide free electricity yet she doesn't have anything in our country, because she spend money a lot and she believe she is lower than a middle class even tho she has a lot of benefits and she earn $4000+ per month and we don't have taxes too. Alhamdulillah I was never discriminated because of my faith. However I do agree about other things you said like opening your own business and freedom of speech since the expats doesn't have the right to protest. But if any company enslave them then they have the right to complain and the government will always stand with them. 

I do recommend you to do your own research instead of only relying on others, because half of the info you have are incorrect. Ask non muslims who lived in qatar, Bahrain, kuwait etc how was their experience and I guarantee almost all of them will say something positive. And if you need to know something else, feel free to PM me at anytime brother. I apologize to anyone who thinks I am not attacking muslims who love or prefer to live in the west since mashallah there are a lot but majority of them are discriminated specially in europe. 

 

 

While one may earn good and spend a good life in the Arab countries you have mentioned or the ones you have not, ignoring every other issue like how they've kicked people out and banned from entry forever for being shia or even having a shia name or being born in a list of cities, the biggest one always remains this: You won't get their citizenship or passport even if you are born there or spend 30-40 years so you won't get the same treatment as their own country's citizen.

I have friends who have working businesses since late 90's, who have at this point basically established one of that country's industries and are millionaires but they don't get to have that country's citizenship or passport. They can't even visit ziyarat because they know they'll be questioned when they come back and possibly face expulsion from the country. Many many shia have faced this. Established company owners were asked to leave within a few weeks time where they had to sell all their companies assets in a lower price because of the time frame.

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6 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

ignoring every other issue like how they've kicked people out and banned from entry forever for being shia or even having a shia name or being born in a list of cities,

I didn't mentioned arab countries like UAE and Saudi arabia because I know they discriminate shias but remember in saudi arabia there are many saudi shias who are living without any issue. I never heard about someone who is banned because of their names or born in a shia cities lol. You are acting as if sunnis do not name their children Ali, hassan and hussein. There was this sunni iranian guy who I thought he is shia because his name is Hussein Ali, found of he is sunni.

 

6 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

You won't get their citizenship or passport even if you are born there or spend 30-40 years so you won't get the same treatment as their own country's citizen.

And? Many countries in the world does that except the west because their population is decreasing. In west white people always treated better than the rest even tho they all have the same passport and born from the same country and have the same right. At least in kuwait or qatar for example, if you working there, their public hospital is cheap and you won't see someone dying because they can't afford to pay. 

 

6 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

They can't even visit ziyarat because they know they'll be questioned when they come back and possibly face expulsion from the country. Many many shia have faced this. Established company owners were asked to leave within a few weeks time where they had to sell all their companies assets in a lower price because of the time frame.

May I know which country is this? Feel free to dm me if u can't post it here. 

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7 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I didn't mentioned arab countries like UAE and Saudi arabia because I know they discriminate shias but remember in saudi arabia there are many saudi shias who are living without any issue. I never heard about someone who is banned because of their names or born in a shia cities lol. You are acting as if sunnis do not name their children Ali, hassan and hussein. There was this sunni iranian guy who I thought he is shia because his name is Hussein Ali, found of he is sunni.

And? Many countries in the world does that except the west because their population is decreasing. In west white people always treated better than the rest even tho they all have the same passport and born from the same country and have the same right. At least in kuwait or qatar for example, if you working there, their public hospital is cheap and you won't see someone dying because they can't afford to pay. 

May I know which country is this? Feel free to dm me if u can't post it here. 

I take offence at the fact that you are "lol"-ing at someone's plight. I'll give you more reasons to "lol":

- Go to Madinah and try to visit Sheikh Al-Amri Mosque (Imam Hassan's Garden). If everything is hunky dory, why is the said shia mosque closed and the cleric incharge sentenced to four years in prison? Shias are living there and other shias are working there from other countries out of necessity, not like they are enjoying it out there. You'll get the Khashoggi treatment for speaking up.

- Kuwait? How about the 40 or so dead Indian labours who were living in over crowded conditions and suffocated to death in fire only a few months ago?

- Qatar? All you have to do is read the labour exploitation articles and what not from world cup prep days.

The West is not a heaven on earth but you get rights there by birth that these countries where you are advocating people move to, won't ever give to these people. And I have no interest in sharing which country it is. You don't want to believe it then don't, no issue for me.

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Before I reply I just want to say that I am NOT telling or forcing anyone from here or any humans who lives in the west to leave and come to middle east. I was just wondering why brother abu hadi want to create an ideal muslim place in the west even tho we all know it's impossible (brother ashz posted a good point above) I mean if christians themselves, the majority in the west have hard time fighting against the lgbt community and corruption, then why do you think Islam which is one of the most hated religion and minority in the west can do it? The west is not made for us, that's the reality and no one can change this fact until Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) reappears. 

1 hour ago, Dreamcatcher said:

take offence at the fact that you are "lol"-ing at someone's plight. I'll give you more reasons to "lol":

- Go to Madinah and try to visit Sheikh Al-Amri Mosque (Imam Hassan's Garden). If everything is hunky dory, why is the said shia mosque closed and the cleric incharge sentenced to four years in prison? Shias are living there and other shias are working there from other countries out of necessity, not like they are enjoying it out there. You'll get the Khashoggi treatment for speaking up.

My bad, my intention was not to hurt anyone's feeling, I apologize. The reasons I "lol" because you said something that I never heard about specially me as a middle eastern man who talked with 1000+ of shias around the world. If what you said is true then let's talk about it, I would love learn more about the experience of people. I'm serious, not mocking you. 

Why did you mention saudi arabia here? I never mentioned it on my posts, we all know Saudi arabia and UAE are anti shia countries but that doesn't means Shias can't practice their own religion and do Ziyara, they won't know unless you go to any news channel and inform every one. Malaysia banned shia because of saudi arabia and yes, they did say they will deport any shias who practice their religion public but Shias still can practise their religion indoors without any issues, our marja recommend us to do taqiya if we feel unsafe. Btw this tread is not about shias but about muslims as a whole so pls lets not change the topic. 

26 minutes ago, Dreamcatcher said:

Kuwait? How about the 40 or so dead Indian labors who were living in over crowded conditions and suffocated to death in fire only a few months ago?

Oh that's the only thing you heard? You didn't heard about the government sentencing the landlord to prison because what he did was a crime? Or that the indian labour knew what they did was a crime AND dangerous yet they preferred to live overcrowded because it was cheap for them? Because of this accident, the kuwait government sent a group of people to check over 100k+ building from that day till now just to make sure all building is safe for everyone, and they violated many people and the owner of the building if they did anything illegal. Btw, they gave $15k compensation to each family of the victims. They knew what happened was horrible, instead of denying they stood up and did the needful for everyone. In kuwait bread cost only 50 fils ($0.016) because the government want to make sure no one is sleeping while being hungry, you can find free filtered water anywhere, and they are extremely cheap if you want to buy. I can compare kuwait with the whole west and can prove why it's one of the good countries we muslims and non muslims can live in but I don't want to change the topic. 

 

36 minutes ago, Dreamcatcher said:

Qatar? All you have to do is read the labour exploitation articles and what not from world cup prep days.

It's not like the west are not doing this to their people too. Millions of american are complaining about their hour wages and their basic health care. Yes qatar are exploiting sadly which is still a crime against humanity and many people are still against this but at least the workers are sleeping while while being filled and they are getting paid for their jobs. I am not standing with what they are doing to the labours, just stating facts.

 

42 minutes ago, Dreamcatcher said:

The West is not a heaven on earth but you get rights there by birth that these countries where you are advocating people move to, won't ever give to these people. 

Great, first I never advocated, I wanted to know why brother abu hadi wanted to build ideal muslim community in the west, he himself didn't mentioned why living in a arabic or muslim rich country is a bad idea, he said he 5 brothers who had bad experience while I know 100-150 people (majority of them are either my relatives or neighbors) who either had horrible experience living in the west or they left islam or starting practising haram things like drinking alcohol, lgbt etc. I know what happening in the west because I have families and friends who live in the west. And what's the right you mentioned about that the west will give but the countries I mentioned won't? Passport? being a citizen? Many people still can't get their basic needs in usa, their medical health, education, electricity etc is expensive, people can't save enough money to retire when they get old and so on. In germany? Didn't they took a syrian child from his parents because they are teaching him how islam is against lgbt? or they harassed a married woman in front of her husband because she is hijabi and wear abaya? France? We don't want to start talk about what they did in the Olympics and how dirty their country is. I can start with more but I prefer to stop because I don't want to waste anyone's time.

I love my country and my culture and I'm not planning to immigrate, I learned this from my people, palestinians are a great example too.  I prefer to live in my country even tho it's not a religious country and build my own house and start a small business, and then thank, and be grateful for the country I lived in for treating me kindly and gave me my basic rights. I can raise my children safely unlike west where they are teaching the children how to be "They" instead of their real gender. 

 

59 minutes ago, Dreamcatcher said:

And I have no interest in sharing which country it is. You don't want to believe it then don't, no issue for me.

Great so there is no need for me to continue replying to your posts , have a nice day and I hope you my posts won't offend you or anyone else. Salam.

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On 9/11/2024 at 6:08 PM, ireallywannaknow said:

So I asked one of the sisters I know and yes that is the same community. There are about 7 people I know from there that live here now. I have not heard of that brother you mentioned however. I am going to ask her more about that community iA, it is very interesting. 

Did the sister you spoke with echo my sentiments that it was an ideal Muslim community in the West or did she have a different perspective? Just curious. 

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15 hours ago, Diaz said:

Before I reply I just want to say that I am NOT telling or forcing anyone from here or any humans who lives in the west to leave and come to middle east. I was just wondering why brother abu hadi want to create an ideal muslim place in the west even tho we all know it's impossible (brother ashz posted a good point above) I mean if christians themselves, the majority in the west have hard time fighting against the lgbt community and corruption, then why do you think Islam which is one of the most hated religion and minority in the west can do it? The west is not made for us, that's the reality and no one can change this fact until Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) reappears. 

 

Salam Alekum Brother, 

We are responsible for our efforts fe Sibilillah, not the results, which most of the time we don't have control over. 

If we, as a community and followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) make efforts to establish an ideal Muslim community in the West, it might not happen or it might get infiltrated by CIA/Mossad. It might become haven for LGBTQ, i.e. it might become corrupt, etc, but we will not be responsible for that as long as we don't participate in it and fight against it in whatever way we can. The point of this thread was to say that first, we need to agree on what an ideal Muslims Community in the West is, at least as followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). That is step one, which we haven't even done. Step two is to establish leadership structure, and step three is to begin building it. 

I am saying this because if you look at the videos and posts of the leaders of the Blanco community, Sheik Fadhlalla, it seems he is very into sufic mysticism and not concerned or connected to events that are happening in the real world which need to be addressed by the ulema, such as the genocide in Gaza. This is his website

https://shaykhfadhlallahaeri.com/videos/

Like the brother above posted, there are people who have actually done it, although I have an idea why it didn't work in the long term. It is almost always about leadership. The leadership in the community seemed to be more Sufi oriented and these communities are prone to disintegration over time. The leadership of the community needs to be knowledgeable ulema who are adl (just) and on the path of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), i.e. under the leadership of the marjaa' who are our connection to Ul Al Amr, i.e. Imam Mehdi(a.f.s). If that isn't there, it doesn't matter how many followers or what kinds of nice buildings and facilities you have, the community will disintegrate over time because there is no connection between that community and Al Hujjat(a.f.s). Even with that connection, it might disintegrate anyway for other reasons, but it is much less likely. The community needs to be connected to the larger worldwide Ummah and concerned with issues of justice and speak out against injustice, as was the practice of Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) and all the Imams((عليه السلام)). 

That leads into the impossible part. Yes, by doing this the community would be on a 'hit list' by the US Government and others and the leadership would also be. That's why I said it might not be possible within the borders of the US / Canada / Australia, etc. I'm not sure. At least we should have some ideas, that all I was saying. At least we should start thinking about this. The community of Dearborn is an example, but also a cautionary tale. The majority of Shia Muslim children who grow up in Dearborn end up, by their early 20s, becoming corrupt and leaving the religion, either explicitly by renouncing it, although this is not common, or implicitly by becoming a BNO (by name only), non practicing. This leads to their children following this path, etc. Without a community where there are measures being taken, by the community and not just by individuals and groups, this will keep happening until eventually Islam in the West will be unrecognizable as Islam. This is the goal of the Taghut and we should do our best to not let this happen. 

 

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21 hours ago, Dreamcatcher said:

The West is not a heaven on earth but you get rights there by birth that these countries where you are advocating people move to, won't ever give to these people

The myth of the West and it's rights it shattering before our eyes since a couple of decades now. France and Belgium banning hijab in schools, various employers banning hijab in the workplace, restrictions on halal meat, shutting down mosques and taking over their ownership in Germany, the list continues 

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On 9/8/2024 at 11:15 PM, JannahLM said:

Exactly. It's not so easy. Most Islamic countries are much poorer than western countries so just the poverty and lower living standards alone would be a lot for the average westerner to adjust to. Not to mention all the cultural and linguistic barriers. Not all of us are multilingual and fluent in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc.

It is not even a question of being multilingual or fluent in the local language anymore. You could be as thoroughbred a native as one can be and yet be condemned to live like dirt, if you are not from the privileged minority but from the underprivileged, plebian majority, without the wealth and the connections to oil the machinery to your advantage. 

The postcolonial global south, even the 'Muslim' countries, are not much different from the West in terms of morals these days. 

Edited by AbdusSibtayn
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2 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

It is not even a question of being multilingual or fluent in the local language anymore. You could be as thoroughbred a native as one can be and yet be condemned to live like dirt, if you are not from the privileged minority but from the underprivileged, plebian majority, without the wealth and the connections to oil the machinery to your advantage. 

The postcolonial global south, even the 'Muslim' countries, are not much different from the West in terms of morals these days. 

All that is true but we're speaking comparitively. All the Muslim countries that are economically prosperous like Dubai,UAE, etc, as a Shia or even as a foreigner you basically have no rights. Yes u can make some money and yes you are in a Muslim country but your visa could be yanked away at any moment for any reason. So u never feel secure. 

So maybe u spend 10,20,30 years in Dubai(etc) building a career or building a business then one day some royal decides they don't want u there anymore, kicks u and takes your business and your career is over. I am not saying that couldn't happen in the US / Europe but it is less likely to happen, again based on what I know.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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