Epicurean Paradox

[EiE]

[EiE]

What are your thoughts?

[Muhammed Ali]

Your lack of understanding in this area seems to be the root cause for your objections to non-reappearance of the Mahdi [a] in the other thread.

Unfortunately this is a very neglected subject area by scholars throughout history. How can people have such deep knowledge in lesser areas?

Read this book and you should get a lot of answers: https://www.al-islam.org/divine-justice-murtadha-mutahhari

 

[EiE]

it's going to take hours to read, can you summarize?

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, EiE said:

it's going to take hours to read, can you summarize?

That's the problem my young brother - you want a summary from someone to form an opinion rather than do the hard work and come to your own conclusions.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

12 hours ago, EiE said:

There are many things lacking in this paradox which if included it will not remain a paradox at all. Such as one thing is that God created this universe for his Marifah. This, in order for his Marifah, it was necessary to create ignorance which is main source of evil which would help you to understand the difference between God and itself. However, when God created us, he did not left us without guidance so that we may be perverted by Evil rather prophets and imams were sent. He also has promised to create a world without evil that is heaven but he will inhabit that with those who will prove themselves worthy of it before all creation otherwise those who are refused it will complain as to why they are not allowed in heaven. 

[Muhammed Ali]

17 hours ago, EiE said:

it's going to take hours to read, can you summarize?

Suffering and difficulties bring about benefits other than simply allowing for the existence of free will.

 

In my own view, Imam Mahdi's [a] role is not to remove that suffering and difficulty. If he were to appear right now to do that then it would stop us from obtaining those benefits. His job is to guide us when we are ready as a society. As Lao Tzu said: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

I can't summarize what those benefits are here, because a short amount of text wont do justice.

Edited August 16 by Muhammed Ali

[Dreamcatcher]

13 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Suffering and difficulties bring about benefits other than simply allowing for the existence of free will.

 

In my own view, Imam Mahdi's [a] role is not to remove that suffering and difficulty. If he were to appear right now to do that then it would stop us from obtaining those benefits. His job is to guide us when we are ready as a society. As Lao Tzu said: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

I can't summarize what those benefits are here, because a short amount of text wont do justice.

Don't the aHadith talk about him removing the suffering and difficulty from this world? We are always praying for his reappearance esp. when we think of the injustice and cruelty? Can you also mention aHadith for the part that "His job is to guide us when we are ready as a society" because there are numerous aHadith in Kitab al Ghaybah:

---

“Islam has begun strange and it will return strange as it has begun. Blessed are the strangers!”

Abu Baseer said to him: “Please, explain to me what this means!”

He said: “Al-Qa'im will invite to a new mission as the Prophet (S) has done.”

---

“I asked Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq (عليه السلام) to explain to me the saying of Amirul Mo'mineen (عليه السلام) “Islam has begun strange and it will return strange as it has begun. Blessed are the strangers!”

He said to me: “O Abu Muhammad, when al-Qa'im (عليه السلام) appears, he will invite to a new mission as the Prophet (S) has done.”

https://www.al-islam.org/kitab-al-ghayba-book-occultation-sheikh-an-numani/chapter-22-islam-began-strange-and-returns-strange

-----

Not to mention the aHadith that talk about the numbers that when reached, Imam (ajtf) will reappear. Those numbers are not reflective of a society or the aHadith that Imam (ajtf) will face distresses from the people who will protest against him by mentioning ayahs of Quran. How is that reflective of such a society or Lao Tzu's "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" ???

[Dreamcatcher]

On 8/15/2024 at 8:16 PM, EiE said:

This paradox is thinking of God as a human so ofcourse it is ridiculous. You want to know what God is and whether there is one? Follow the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Listen to Hadith of Reality, a conversation between Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Kumayl (رضي الله عنه). 

 

[Dreamcatcher]

 

[Dreamcatcher]

 

[Abu Hadi]

On 8/15/2024 at 10:16 AM, EiE said:

There is two parts to this 'paradox'. First is 'Why is there Evil?'. This has been explained many times by Masoom of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). I will try to summarize the main points here. 

1. Evil is a natural result of having free will, having unlimited desires, and having limited resources as is the case in this world. Because people are free to choose to do good or evil, some will chose evil to get what they want (satisfy their unlimited desires) and the society will bear the consequences of this evil. As Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in the Holy Quran 'I am going to place in your earth a Kalipha'. The word Khalafa (root of Khalifa) means a things which is standing in the place of something else. Khalifa refers in general to human beings and also specifically to the Hujjat or proof of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on the earth. Because the Kalifa is 'standing in the place' of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in certain aspects this function requires the Kalipha to have free will because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has free will. 

2. Evil is the mechanism Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) uses to separate the good from the bad, the sincere from the insincere, the liars from the ones who tell the truth. Yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows who is sincere and who is insincere, who is good and who is bad at the same time Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Al Adl , The Just. The justice requires Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to give even the bad people a chance to be good and the good people a chance to practically demonstrate their goodness. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punished the bad people before they actually committed evil, this would be unjust just a rewarding someone who doesn't actually do anything good is not Just because they people will say 'Why are some rewarded and some punished without actually committing any evil or doing any good'. 

When everything is going 'fine and dandy' it is easy for almost anyone to be good and avoid evil. It is only when evil is introduced into the picture that we can all clearly see the evil from the good. Example is the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Because of this evil act of the Zionist State, it has now become clear to almost everyone in the world who are the evil people and who are the good people and that wasn't the situation before this genocide. 

This 'paradox' takes into account the knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but doesn't address the issue of Justice, which is why it is an incomplete thought or idea

Second part is 'If God was all knowing, wouldn't he know what we would do....'. This has been addressed above. Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Knowledgeable and Just, He(s.w.a) would not punish until the bad action is done and after giving the person free will and teaching them right from wrong. Also, He(s.w.a) would not reward before the good action without the person having the strive to do the good action despite the obstacles placed in the way, one of those obstacles being the evil that exists.  

Edited August 17 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

On 8/15/2024 at 9:04 PM, EiE said:

it's going to take hours to read, can you summarize?

Not the kind of summary you were looking for, but it provides an overview. I uploaded the pdf of the book onto chatgpt and asked it to summarise. Beware of errors etc.

Quote

The text appears to be a detailed exploration of the concept of Divine Justice from an Islamic perspective, authored by Murtadha Mutahhari. This work delves into various theological and philosophical aspects of Divine Justice, addressing questions such as the purpose of life, the existence of suffering, and the problem of evil. The text also compares Islamic perspectives on these issues with those found in Western theology, particularly critiquing the Christian approach.

Mutahhari employs the transcendental philosophy of Mulla Sadra to argue for a logical and coherent understanding of Divine Justice that incorporates concepts like free will, predestination, and natural evils. He critiques the weaknesses in Western theological approaches, emphasizing the robustness of Islamic thought in addressing these challenges.

The book also discusses the impact of different Islamic schools of thought on the concept of Divine Justice, particularly focusing on the theological debates between the Mu'tazilah and Ash'arites. The Mu'tazilah emphasized human free will and justice, while the Ash'arites leaned towards predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God. The Shia perspective, which Mutahhari represents, is portrayed as a middle path that upholds both Divine Justice and the unity of God’s will and actions.

In addition to the theological discourse, the text also touches upon the historical and intellectual developments in Islamic jurisprudence and philosophy, highlighting how these fields have grappled with the concepts of justice, free will, and rationality over the centuries.

Overall, the text is an in-depth exploration of how Divine Justice is conceptualized within Islamic thought, offering philosophical arguments and addressing complex theological issues that have been debated by Islamic scholars for centuries.

[Hameedeh]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:41 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

Read this book and you should get a lot of answers: https://www.al-islam.org/divine-justice-murtadha-mutahhari

Thank you for the link. For those who would like the PDF for the book Divine Justice please use this link:   

Divine Justice by Ayatullah Murtadha Mutahhari