Are Sunnis on Haq?

[Sibtain reza]

As a Shia I have done all the practices I've been told to do like matam Mourn and so on.....but gradually as I'm getting mature I'm realizing that this Isn't Islam.... Sorry to say but thats a Pov and The thing is that why to hit yourself and injure yourself. And even though the caliphs made mistakes who are we to curse them.And why should we hate them.... Doing everything opposite to sunnis is shiasm.Callimg Ali Instead of ALLAH. Mourn and matam.

If any momin Have a valid Proof of matam then kindly tell me asap so do as The guiltiness of the caliphs on Bibi Fatima zehra (s.a) martydrom/death.

Only valid hadith and ayats please...

If No so I don't think shiasm is the right path.

Edited August 11 by Abu_Zahra

[Muslim2010]

18 hours ago, Sibtain reza said:

As a Shia I have done all the practices I've been told to do like matam Mourn and so on.....but gradually as I'm getting mature I'm realizing that this Isn't Islam.... Sorry to say but thats a Pov and The thing is that why to hit yourself and injure yourself. And even though the caliphs made mistakes who are we to curse them.And why should we hate them.... Doing everything opposite to sunnis is shiasm.Callimg Ali Instead of ALLAH. Mourn and matam.

If any momin Have a valid Proof of matam then kindly tell me asap so do as The guiltiness of the caliphs on Bibi Fatima zehra (s.a) martydrom/death.

Only valid hadith and ayats please...

If No so I don't think shiasm is the right path.

1. First we should know what is Haq?

Hadith ʿAlī maʿa al-ḥaqq wa-l-ḥaqq maʿa ʿAlī (Arabic: حديث عَلِيٌّ مَعَ الْحَقِّ وَالْحَقُّ مَعَ عَلِيٍّ, 'Ali is with the truth and the truth is with 'Ali) is a hadith from the Prophet (s) concerning Imam 'Ali (a). The same content has been transmitted from the Prophet (s) in different words. Some of these appear in Shia and Sunni sources and the hadith is deemed mutawatir (or frequently transmitted).

So Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the standard of Haq / truth no one else so his followers ie Shia ne Ali are only follower of truth.

2-  Matam is not part of shia basic belief.

A Momin is that who accepts the witness of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as Wali and khalifa after the prophet .(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  Azadari is act of showing grief . This have been practiced by members of Ahl albayat (عليه السلام). These include sayings the allergies for the griefs that the members of Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) have faced at Kerbela.

"Matam is an expression of grief and sadness which is used by human beings in different societies in different ways. The Prophet Muhammad ((SAWA) after the battle of Uhud, encouraged Muslims to mourn on the martyrdom of his uncle Hamza when many Muslims were mourning their own martyrs by telling them : Why my uncle Hamza has no mourners? وعمّي حمزة لا بواكي له ؟ Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal , Hadeeth number 4742 and Al-Mustadral Ala Al-Saheehain; Hadeeth 1407, and Al-Mu'jam Al-Kabeer by Al-Tabarani; 11/310 , and Al-Tabaqaat Al-Khubra by Ibn Sa'ad; 2/44, and Tareekh Al-Tabari; 2/210.

'Matam was also done by Ayisha and Muslim women when the Prophet passed away. Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal , Hadeeth number 25144 and Dalaa'il Al-Nubowwah by Al-Bayhaqi (Al-Eltudaam (Beating the chest)).and Al-Tabaqaat Al-Khubra by ibn Sa'ad 2/261 and Tareekh Al-Tabari; 2/441 and Ibn Al-Atheer in Al-Bidayah Wal-Nihayah.

'Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) did Matam on Imam Husain (عليه السلام) as we read in Ziyarat Al-Naahiyah Al-Moqaddasa narrated from Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام). لاطمات الصور"

Sayyed Mohammad Al-Musawi, Sayyed Mohammad al-Musawi is originally from Iraq and heads up the World Ahlul Bayt Islamic League in London. Other than being involved in various humanitarian projects, he frequently responds to..

Did the Prophet (s) engage in Matam? If so, where can I find the evidence for it? | Ask A Question | Al-Islam.org

 

[EiE]

Matam is not a pillar of shia islam nor is it wajib.

It doesn't make you more shia nor does it make you less shia.

The people that do matam do it for their own intention. It's just an expression of grief.

 

For your information, there are also sunnis doing matam during muharram.

 

[islamicmusic]

In the name of Allah. Salam alaikum. Welcome to shiachat.

MashaAllah, it is nice that you are researching. People should question their beleifs. Otherwise it would be dogmatic and God forbid if they are not on the right path. That would be a doom. In the Holy Quran there are many many verses that urge people to question their inherited beliefs.

"And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance?" (Holy Quran, Surat al Baqarah, 170)

So, it is nice that you study your own faith and question if it really is the true path.

Here's a Prophetic Narration recorded in Shia Hadith books. Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) says:

"He who studies the religion of Allah, He is sufficient to remove his grief and provides him with sustenance from whence he could never imagine." (A Bundle of Flowers by Sayyid Kamal Faqih Imani)

I love inquisitive minds, both the shia and the sunni. And I don't like people follow their religion and madhab just because they inherited it.

So, it is nice that you question. And now we should hear the answers here on the forum and study ourselves also to decide.

21 hours ago, Sibtain reza said:

As a Shia I have done all the practices I've been told to do like matam Mourn and so on.....but gradually as I'm getting mature I'm realizing that this Isn't Islam....

Is mourning part of Islam?

The reason for and the way-method-culture of mourning might vary and that is exactly that seperates islamic mourning and non-islamic one.

# Reason of mourning:

If person A mourns over a calamity to the extent that he objects divine decree, let's say over a natural disaster and blames God for that. Would it be Islamic? No! But if let's say, person B thinks of their past sins and mourns. Would it be islamic? Totally yes! Because the action they are doing is referred as MUHASABAH (accounting) in irfaan-gnosis and that helps one confess their sins to God and repent for their sins and do istighfaar and ask for forgiveness.

So, the reason you mourn is important. And it can define whether your mourning is islamic or not.

The reason for mourning on Ashura is that we remember those special days, their sufferings and sacrifices which kept the religion of Islam alive. And this kind of mourning is a Quranic command. For instance, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) orders Prophet Musa ((عليه السلام)) that he reminds his nation of the days Paharohs oppressed them. (Holy Quran, Surah Ibrahim, verses 5-6). So, that they mourn and remember those sad days. Next verse also orders them to remember how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) saved them from oppression. So, had they followed the order, they would not have done the same oppression to Palestinians today. Nor they would have deserted God and Moses, nor they would have worshipped a calf. etc. These special days are there to remind people of God, Prophets, the concept of right and wrong, adl (justice) and zulm (oppression). The fact that it is ony Shia Islamic Resistance Axis is fighting Israel today while the so-called sunni states and masses leave Palestine alone proves the fact that Shia Muslims always commemorated these days and now they know these concepts and they know what sacrifice means and what "Hayhat Minazz-Zillah" means.

So, reason for mourning is important.

If it helps you remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Ahlulbayt, their sacrifices, teachings.. it will revive you and keep the true islam alive in your heart and thoughts and actions. That is why Allah refers to these special commemoration days as "AYYAMOLLAH" (i.e. days of God) in the Holy Quran.

And that's why the Holy Prophet mourns the fact that Imam Hussain is to be martyred in Karbala even before it happened. And that is why he says "Husayn minni wa ana min Hussain" (Hussain is from me and I am from Him). 

# Method of mourning:

The method of mourning may vary according to different cultures. And there are limits set to it. And maraji (Ayatollahs) say that if it causes harm to the person and gives bad image to islam, that kind of mourning is forbidden. And they issues fatwas/rulings against tatbir and all kinds of wrong method of mourning.

So, commemorations of sad events and mourning, if done for right reasons and right methods is totally islamic and ordered by the Holy Quran and practiced by the Holy Prophet.

21 hours ago, Sibtain reza said:

And even though the caliphs made mistakes who are we to curse them. And why should we hate them...

Well, that is wrong of you to curse. Some maraji issued fatwas that it is not allowed to curse the companions and wives of the Holy Prophet.

Their wrongs you can study and search and say (because otherwise, you will follow and fall into same mistakes), but cursing is not allowed. Cursing is not constructive, nor does it have a meaning.

In fact, cursing is the tradition of Umayyads. Umayyads cursed Ahlulbayt in pulpits for almost a century. While the school of Ahlulbayt is different.

The following incident is quoted in the book 'Kashful Ghumma':
A Syrian came to Madinah. He saw a handsome man astride a good camel. Upon enquiry he learnt that it was Imam Hasan ibn Ali ((عليه السلام).).

This man from Syria stepped forward in anger and said;"Are you the son of Ali ibn Abi Talib?"
"Yes, I am the son of Ali."

He said, "You are the son of a person who was a mushrik (polytheist)". And he continued his foul utterances till he got tired of it. Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام).) remained silent. At last the man felt ashamed. The Imam ((عليه السلام).) seeing his remorse said;
"You look like a traveller, are you from Syria?"
"Yes sir", he replied.

Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام).) said,
"If you need a place to stay, we shall provide it. If you need money we would give it you. If you have any other problem, we shall help you."

Not only was the Syrian ashamed but was also rendered speechless by such excellent behaviour.

The following are his words:
"After I had the good fortune of enjoying the hospitality of Imam Hasan Ibne Ali ((عليه السلام).), I found his personality more likeable than that of any other person in the world."

Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام).) had offered the same type of hospitality to Asam bin Mutlaq the Syrian, and he too became his devotee.

21 hours ago, Sibtain reza said:

Doing everything opposite to sunnis is shiasm.

In fact it is the other way around. Kindly study these texts in sunni sources where they admit the way of Shia Muslims is haq-truth according to the Sunnah of the Prophet but they do the opposite in order to identify themselves different. Here are some examples where sunni scholars admit it and urge people to leave sunnah of the peophet and even islamic sharia in order to oppose shia islam.

a-) Famous scholars including Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Marghinani (d. 1197) who was the writer of Al-Hidaya, said that ''About wearing the ring, the SUNNAH of the Prophet is to wear it in the right hand. But, since it is the motto of (a sign of being a) shia, we should leave this SUNNAH.''

They deserted the sunnah of the Holy Prophet in order to oppose shiites.

 

Interestingly, the famous mufasser (interpreter of the Quran) Abu al-Qasim Mahmud ibn Umar al-Zamakhshari (d. 1144), in his ''Rabi al-Abrar'' says that, ''The first person who acted against the SUNNAH of the Prophet and wore ring in his left hand was Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan, the first king of the Umayyads.''

 

b-) Hujjatul-Islam Abu Hamid Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Ghazali (d. 1111) says; ''About the graves, the SHAR'I ISLAMIC WAY is TASTIH (levelling, making it completely flat). But, since it is (also) the sign of shiites, we make it tasnim (raising).''

 

They left the sharia in order to oppose the shiites. Such bigotry!

 

c-) Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 1328) (as per some, the so-called Sheikh'ul-Islam) says that ''...That is why, according to some jurisprudents, we need to leave some MUSTAHAB ACTS (islamically recommended deeds) which are signs of shi'ites. Because to DIFFER from shiites by leaving these deeds is far more important than the recommended deeds themselves.''

 

Not only they left the SHARIA of ISLAM and the SUNNAH of the PROPHET (or what was left over them in their books), they also left the MUSTAHAB (the recommended deeds) JUST TO OPPOSE SHIA MUSLIMS..

d-) Abdulrahim bin al-Husain bin Abdulrahman al-Iraqi al-Misri (d. 1403), the famous Shafii scholar of Hadith, AKA, Hafez al-Araqi, says that: ''About wearing the turban, the SUNNAH way of wearing is to lean the end of the turban from right to left, but, because this is a sign of shiites, in order to not be like them, we should leave this SUNNAH.'' (Muhammad bin Abdul Baqi bin Yusuf al-Zarqani al-Maliki, d. 1709, in his, Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ludaniya, vol. 5, p, 13)

e-) It was narrated that Saeed bin Jubair said: "I was with Ibn Abbas in Arafat and he said: 'Why do I not hear the people reciting Talbiyah?' I said: They are afraid of Muawiyah.' So Ibn Abbas went out of his tent and said: "Labbaik Allahumma Labbaik, Labbaik! They are only forsaking the Sunnah out of hatred for Ali.'" (source: Sunan an-Nasai, the Book of Hajj, hadith no 389)

f-) `Ali and `Uthman met in `Usfan. `Uthman was telling the people not to do tamattu` or ‘Umrah. `Ali said: Why do you want to forbid something that the Messenger of Allah did? `Uthman said: Leave us alone. (source: Musnad Ahmad 1146)

Narrated Marwan bin Al-Hakam: I saw `Uthman and `Ali. `Uthman used to forbid people to perform Hajj-at-Tamattu` and Hajj-al- Qiran (Hajj and `Umra together), and when `Ali saw (this ban of `Uthman), he assumed Ihram for Hajj and `Umra together saying, "Lubbaik for `Umra and Hajj," and said, "I will not leave the tradition of the Prophet on the saying of somebody (Caliph Uthman or anyone)." (source: Bukhari 1563)

21 hours ago, Sibtain reza said:

Calling Ali Instead of ALLAH.

Astaghfirullah. If one does such a thing, they should repent immediately.

Shia sources are full of Duas taught by Ahlulbayt. I urge anyone sunni-shia-sufi to read the Duas, Jawshan al-Kabeer, Dua Kumail, Dua Arafah, Dua-e Noor, etc. and whole dua books such as Sahifah Sajjadiyah, Mafatih al Jinaan etc. There are no supplication there calling anyone instead of God. That would be shirk.

I mean, if one hwther sunni or shia has never read the duas taught by ahlulbayt in shia sources, then they have not tasted the sweetness of supplication to God. and they should not identify themselves a shia or a sunni.

It is sad indeed, that when I provide these duas to sufi-sunnis their hearts are moved by it and they cry. And a shia says they are not aware of these duas and that they call Ali instead of Allah. Astaghfirullah.

Edited August 11 by islamicmusic

[Abu_Zahra]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:03 PM, Sibtain reza said:

As a Shia I have done all the practices I've been told to do like matam Mourn and so on.....but gradually as I'm getting mature I'm realizing that this Isn't Islam....

Without knowing all the details it sounds like you haven't had the opportunity to study the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)

It could be that you were exposed mainly to local or regional cultural rituals and were misinformed that this is more or less the crux of the religion.

If this is the case then your best option is to take some time out in your daily routine to read about the religion. 

If not then bring forward your arguments and whoever can respond will do so inshaAllah

 

[Guest111]

On 8/10/2024 at 7:03 PM, Sibtain reza said:

As a Shia I have done all the practices I've been told to do like matam Mourn and so on.....but gradually as I'm getting mature I'm realizing that this Isn't Islam.... Sorry to say but thats a Pov and The thing is that why to hit yourself and injure yourself. And even though the caliphs made mistakes who are we to curse them.And why should we hate them.... Doing everything opposite to sunnis is shiasm.Callimg Ali Instead of ALLAH. Mourn and matam.

If any momin Have a valid Proof of matam then kindly tell me asap so do as The guiltiness of the caliphs on Bibi Fatima zehra (s.a) martydrom/death.

Only valid hadith and ayats please...

If No so I don't think shiasm is the right path.

Cursing and matam are not essential beliefs of being a shia. The main thing that makes you a shia rather than part of some other school of Islam is accepting the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). So if you don't think Tashayyu is the right path, this is the primary belief you should first disprove.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Salamun 'alaykum, 

neither Sunnis nor Shi'a are a monolithic group and different opinions exist among both. It's possible that a Shi'a is correct on one thing and wrong on another issue and the same is true regarding the Sunni. 

We should always stay humble and not overestimate ourselves. We're normal human beings and therefore prone to mistakes and misunderstandings. That's why you should not expect yourself or a specific Madhhab / group to be right on every detailed issue.

It's possible for all of us to have misunderstood something, but this of course does not change things that are firmly established by clear proofs. 

You mentioned the issue of Matam and also whether the first Khulafa were guilty and so on. It's possible to reject injuring and hitting yourself and also not to believe that the first Khulafa were guilty regarding the death of Fatima (peace be upon her) and still believe in the Wilaya of 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him). There is no connection between these issues. 

The Zaydiyya (who are Shi'a) for example would fall in this category. You will even find some of the Imamiyya sharing the same opinion. 

The thing is that the status and leadership of Imam 'Ali is established by clear proofs, while the issues that you mentioned are not in the same category. 

 

Edited August 12 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The Zaydiyya (who are Shi'a) for example would fall in this category. You will even find some of the Imamiyya sharing the same opinion

Salam all Zaydis don't believe to this which for example Houthis of Yemen who are Jarudiyah branch of Zaydism have similar opinion likewise Twelver Imamiyya which Imamiyya is general lable for all branches of Shias even 4 sunni school of thoughts are following one of 4 Sunni Imams so therefore they can be labeled as Imamiyya too although currently Imamiyya is equivalent to Shia but in later centuries it has been used for historical Alawis who believed to legitimacy of 4 sunni caliphs have been labeled as Imamiyya which has been mentioned by you but on the other hand current Imamiyya is Twelver Shiism which has been called as Rafidism in later centuries who only belive to legitimacy of Amir Almuminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & reject legitimacy of all 3 Sunni caliphs before & after him . 

[Muslim2010]

22 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The thing is that the status and leadership of Imam 'Ali is established by clear proofs, while the issues that you mentioned are not in the same category. 

The above statement out of the post is quite reasonable part alone and it is agreed.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

50 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The above statement out of the post is quite reasonable part alone and it is agreed.

I think some of you brothers had a problem with my statement that a specific Madhhab (or let's say the prominent opinion of a Madhhab) is not always right on every single issue.

The thing however is that the more you read, the more you will get to this result. 

And this is also the conclusion that scholars, who were blessed with critical thinking, reached: I mean hereby the likes of Shaykh Hassan bin Farhan al-Maliki and Shaykh Kamal al-Haydari. 

 

I will give a specific example were the majority of today's Sunnis and Shi'a (or at least the scholars representing both groups) have reached a wrong conclusion:

Allah ta'ala has clarified in His Book that he will not forgive major sinners and criminals who die without repentance (I opened a thread regarding this issue recently) and this in clear and obvious manner. Despite this many Sunnis and Shi'a chose the Umawi opinion that major sinners and criminals will ultimately enter al-Janna! The same Janna, that Allah ta'ala has promised EXCLUSIVELY to the people of Taqwa and NOT to the oppressors nor to the criminals! 

Edited August 13 by StrangerInThisWorld

[Guest Ismail]

My advice to you coming from someone who was a Christian majority of their life and then Sunni before becoming Shia is don’t just do what you’ve been told and follow and accept things blindly go research and verify and learn for yourself. The issue here is you don’t have a proper understanding of Shia and Islam as a whole otherwise you wouldn’t reach the conclusion of Shia being wrong based off a practice that isn’t even mandatory, don’t judge or draw conclusions solely based off the actions of others because no matter what religion and what sect there will be wrong doers and people misguided. You look at the teachings and laws, does it say anywhere that matam is a must in order to be a Shia and Muslim? Does it say you have to call upon Ali instead of Allah? While there are people out there who do cross that line and are misguided where they call upon the imams directly it’s not aligned with the Shia position and if you knew that you wouldn’t have brought it up which is why I’m going to suggest you please go and learn Shia through proper sources and reputable scholars. I wish you all the best and may Allah protect and guide us all.

 

[Shian e Ali]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:03 PM, Sibtain reza said:

Doing everything opposite to sunnis is shiasm.Callimg Ali Instead of ALLAH. Mourn and matam.

Buddy, you've been following the wrong Shi'a sect then, whatever it was.

Waiting for you to come back online and respond to the above comments.