Did Imam Ali gave his daughter in marriage to Umar

[Solo_Ta72]

Salam alaikum 

So in Pakistan some dumb sunnis curse Imam Al Mehdi so i responded "you are ibn Ummayad who have hurt the Prophet and his family" it kept on going until he sent me. Message why did Imam ali gave his daughter to Umar 

I searched the internet but i found some shias actually he did

How can i respond to this claim or refute it 

JazakAllah khair 

[Diaz]

Ws, here i asked this question before https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-it-true-that-omar-ibn-khattab-married-a-daughter-of-imam-ali-as-if-so-what-was-her-name

 

here is a video about it https://www.al-islam.org/media/did-umar-marry-imam-alis-daughter-23-enquiries-about-shia-islam-4147

[ShiaMan14]

#FakeNews.

the entire narration is fake and full of holes.

here is some research for a sunni mufti:
 

 

[Abu_Zahra]

Yes the marriage did take place, as confirmed by early and authentic accounts in our books.

Sheikh Haidar has discussed some of the marriages which people sometimes question and possible explanations for these marriages:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235081429-intermarriages-between-the-ahlulbayt-and-companionscaliphs/

[EiE]

We have one side saying it's weak and refuted. Then we have another saying it's authentic. How does one know the truth

[ShiaMan14]

12 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Yes the marriage did take place, as confirmed by early and authentic accounts in our books.

Sheikh Haidar has discussed some of the marriages which people sometimes question and possible explanations for these marriages:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235081429-intermarriages-between-the-ahlulbayt-and-companionscaliphs/

 

You should learn to read more - the article you referenced mentions several scholars refuting the Umm Khulthum-Umar marriage including Sheikh Mufid.

 

11 hours ago, EiE said:

We have one side saying it's weak and refuted. Then we have another saying it's authentic. How does one know the truth

Let's see - The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) rejected Umar's proposal for Hz Fatima (عليه السلام) because of their age difference so naturally Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would then give his 3-6 year old daughter to Umar 20 years later...makes perfect sense.

 

[Guest sincere]

17 hours ago, EiE said:

We have one side saying it's weak and refuted. Then we have another saying it's authentic. How does one know the truth

Do as Allah has instructed us to do - examine the contents of what people say and examine the evidence.

 

[ShiaMan14]

there are also narrations about Umar asking for the hand of Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr in marriage. 

Hz Aisha rejected that proposal due to Umar's harshness with women. 

But Allama Shahenshah Naqvi said that the Umm Kulthum that was married to Umar was in fact the daughter of Abu Bakr.

[EiE]

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

there are also narrations about Umar asking for the hand of Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr in marriage. 

Hz Aisha rejected that proposal due to Umar's harshness with women. 

But Allama Shahenshah Naqvi said that the Umm Kulthum that was married to Umar was in fact the daughter of Abu Bakr.

you have source?

[Abu_Zahra]

17 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You should learn to read more - the article you referenced mentions several scholars refuting the Umm Khulthum-Umar marriage including Sheikh Mufid.

Not sure if we're reading the same article. Sheikh al Mufid refuting the marriage? 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, EiE said:

you have source?

I don't have the actual text but here it is

After Umm Kulthum was born, she raised under the supervision of her sister Aisha "with kindness and gentleness". When she become old enough for marriage, caliph Umar asked for Umm Kulthum's hand, but Aisha refused consent. Her emissary explained to the Caliph: "You are rough and ready. How will it be with Umm Kulthum if she disobeys you and you beat her? You will have taken Abu Bakr's place in a way that does not suit you."
Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari. Tarikh al-Rusul wa'l-Muluk. Translated by Smith, G. R. (1994). Volume 14: The Conquest of Iran, pp. 101-102. Albany: State University of New York Press.

 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Not sure if we're reading the same article. Sheikh al Mufid refuting the marriage? 

https://iqraonline.net/intermarriages-between-ahl-ul-bayt-a-and-companions-caliphs/#_ftn8
"Consider Shaykh al-Mufīd’s refutation of the marriage between Umm Kulthum and ‘Umar in his al-Masaa’il al-Sarawiyyah."

 

[Qa'im]

Shia sources (credits to @Nader Zaveri):

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى وَ غَيْرُهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ النَّضْرِ بْنِ سُوَيْدٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع عَنِ امْرَأَةٍ تُوُفِّيَ زَوْجُهَا أَيْنَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِ زَوْجِهَا تَعْتَدُّ أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلَى حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا مَاتَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِهَا فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ

 

From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197

2.       Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

3.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ ابْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ وَ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْمَرْأَةِ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا أَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِهَا أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ
 

From `Abd Allaah bin Sinaan and Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): He said: I asked about the women whose husband dies, can she do her `iddah in her house or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “It is wherever she wants, that `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 199

2.       Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq Kal-SaHeeH (Reliable like a SaHeeH (hadeeth))
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ وَ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع فِي تَزْوِيجِ أُمِّ كُلْثُومٍ فَقَالَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ فَرْجٌ غُصِبْنَاهُ
 

From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْقُمِّيِّ عَنِ الْقَدَّاحِ عَنْ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ ع قَالَ مَاتَتْ أُمُّ كُلْثُومٍ بِنْتُ عَلِيٍّ ع وَ ابْنُهَا زَيْدُ بْنُ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ فِي سَاعَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ لَا يُدْرَى أَيُّهُمَا هَلَكَ قَبْلُ فَلَمْ يُوَرِّثْ أَحَدَهُمَا مِنَ الْآخَرِ وَ صَلَّى عَلَيْهِمَا جَمِيعاً

From Al-QadaaH from Ja`far (Al-Saadiq) (عليه السلام) from his father (عليه السلام) He said: “Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام), and her son Zayd bin `Umar bin Al-KhaTTaab died at the same time. They did not know who passed away before, so they did not inherit from one another, and they prayed (the funeral prayer) upon them together”

Source:

1.     Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 9, ch. 36, pg. 362, hadeeth # 15

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Majhool (Unknown)
à Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 15, pg. 382

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ لَمَّا خَطَبَ إِلَيْهِ قَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِنَّهَا صَبِيَّةٌ قَالَ فَلَقِيَ الْعَبَّاسَ فَقَالَ لَهُ مَا لِي أَ بِي بَأْسٌ قَالَ وَ مَا ذَاكَ قَالَ خَطَبْتُ إِلَى ابْنِ أَخِيكَ فَرَدَّنِي أَمَا وَ اللَّهِ لَأُعَوِّرَنَّ زَمْزَمَ وَ لَا أَدَعُ لَكُمْ مَكْرُمَةً إِلَّا هَدَمْتُهَا وَ لَأُقِيمَنَّ عَلَيْهِ شَاهِدَيْنِ بِأَنَّهُ سَرَقَ وَ لَأَقْطَعَنَّ يَمِينَهُ فَأَتَاهُ الْعَبَّاسُ فَأَخْبَرَهُ وَ سَأَلَهُ أَنْ يَجْعَلَ الْأَمْرَ إِلَيْهِ فَجَعَلَهُ إِلَيْهِ
 

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

 

و روى أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم بنت على عليه السلام
“And it is narrated that `Umar married Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام)”
Source:

1.     Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT, vol. 4, pg. 272

Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa (d. 436 AH) has also commented on the marriage taking place in his book, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa. And here is what he said regarding the narration of “faraj being usurped from us”. He talks about the how it is “attested” in the SaHeeH narration from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام).

ويشهد بصحته ما روي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام 

Source:

1.     Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, pg. 148 - 150

 

 

Interesting Sunni source:

This is from Musannaf `Abd al-Razzaq, volume 6, page 239, and it is a Sunni narration going back to Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) which says that the marriage was forced.

• [١١١٩٤] عبد الرزاق، عَنِ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ دِينَارٍ، عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ قَالَ: خَطَبَ عُمَرُ إِلَى عَلِيٍّ ابْنَتَهُ، فَقِيلَ: إِنَّهَا صَغِيرَةٌ، فَقِيلَ لِعُمَرَ: إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ بِذَلِكَ مَنْعَهَا، قَالَ: فَكَلَّمَهُ، فَقَالَ عَلِيٌّ: أَبْعَثُ بِهَا إِلَيْكَ، فَإِنْ رَضِيتَ فَهِيَ امْرَأَتُكَ، قَالَ: فَبَعَثَ بِهَا إِلَيْهِ،

قَالَ: فَذَهَبَ عُمَرُ فَكَشَفَ عَنْ سَاقِهَا، فَقَالَتْ: أَرْسِلْ، فَلَوْلَا أَنَّكَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ لَصَكَكْتُ عَيْنَكَ (١).

`Abd al-Razzaq from Ibn `Uyayna from `Amr b. Dinar from Abi Ja`far.

`Umar proposed to `Ali for his daughter. It was said: She is too young. So, it was said to `Umar: This is just a way to prevent you from [marrying] her. So, he (`Umar) spoke to him (`Ali), and `Ali said: I will summon her to you. If you are satisfied*, she will be your wife. So, he sent her to him. `Umar went and uncovered her leg. She said: "Let go! If you were not the commander of the faithful, I woul have struck your eye."

*It is interesting to me that "if you are satisfied" is rendered as رَضِيتَ. Just one haraka added and it would be (رَضِيَتْ), "if she is satisfied" - ie go seek her consent if you want to marry her (Imam Ali knew she would have rejected him). Allahu a`lam how it was originally said/rendered, as this small vowel can make a world of difference.

Either way, it is interesting that Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) is narrating this openly negative story about `Umar to a proto-Sunni audience.

 

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

https://iqraonline.net/intermarriages-between-ahl-ul-bayt-a-and-companions-caliphs/#_ftn8
"Consider Shaykh al-Mufīd’s refutation of the marriage between Umm Kulthum and ‘Umar in his al-Masaa’il al-Sarawiyyah."

 

For instance, in his al-Masaa’il al-Sarawiyyah, Shaykh al-Mufīd has an extended critique about the narrations that purport a marriage between Umm Kulthum and ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab. At the end of this discussion, he presents two arguments of the Imamites about intermarriages between the Ahl al-Bayt and the Sahabah: namely that the Ahl al-Bayt married based on apparent Islam due to political expediency and that these marriages occurred due to taqiyyah.

 

Edited August 2 by Abu_Zahra

[ShiaMan14]

11 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

For instance, in his al-Masaa’il al-Sarawiyyah, Shaykh al-Mufīd has an extended critique about the narrations that purport a marriage between Umm Kulthum and ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab. At the end of this discussion, he presents two arguments of the Imamites about intermarriages between the Ahl al-Bayt and the Sahabah: namely that the Ahl al-Bayt married based on apparent Islam due to political expediency and that these marriages occurred due to taqiyyah.

 

that is about general intermarriages whereas my citation was specifically Sheikh Mufid refuting the marriage of Hz Umm Kulthum with Umar.

[Abu_Zahra]

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

that is about general intermarriages whereas my citation was specifically Sheikh Mufid refuting the marriage of Hz Umm Kulthum with Umar.

I will check the work if I am able to find out to see what the Sheikh wrote. 

In any case as shown in the post above, you would need to reject a lot of authentic narrations to claim that the marriage didn't take place. 

[Guest Sincere]

5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

that is about general intermarriages whereas my citation was specifically Sheikh Mufid refuting the marriage of Hz Umm Kulthum with Umar.

Authentic Shia narrations absolutely back this up.

Sunni narrations also back this up historically.

So between the sects, the dominant view of the majority of dominant authentic narrations is that it occurred.

To therefore reject it would be to reject compelling evidence preserved not only in Sunni works, but in Shia works too.

 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Guest Sincere said:

Authentic Shia narrations absolutely back this up.

Sunni narrations also back this up historically.

So between the sects, the dominant view of the majority of dominant authentic narrations is that it occurred.

To therefore reject it would be to reject compelling evidence preserved not only in Sunni works, but in Shia works too.

 

I just cited that Sheikh Mufid rejected it. You should take it up with him. 

There are probably as many authentic narrations that reject it as there are they accept it. I presented Sheikh Mufid and the above video from a sunni scholar rejecting it.

There is a sunni narration about Umar threatening to falsely accuse Imam Ali of theft by producing 2 witnesses and then chopping both his hands off. The threat plus coercion from Ibn Abbas led Imam Ali to give his daughter to Umar.

In another narration, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sent his daughter to Umar to "evaluate" where Umar looked at her legs and then wanted to move forward with the marriage.

If the above narrations are true, then essentially Umar is lying, conniving, manipulative pedophile so feel free to believe what you want.

[Guest Sincere]

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I just cited that Sheikh Mufid rejected it. You should take it up with him. 

There are probably as many authentic narrations that reject it as there are they accept it. I presented Sheikh Mufid and the above video from a sunni scholar rejecting it.

There is a sunni narration about Umar threatening to falsely accuse Imam Ali of theft by producing 2 witnesses and then chopping both his hands off. The threat plus coercion from Ibn Abbas led Imam Ali to give his daughter to Umar.

In another narration, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) sent his daughter to Umar to "evaluate" where Umar looked at her legs and then wanted to move forward with the marriage.

If the above narrations are true, then essentially Umar is lying, conniving, manipulative pedophile so feel free to believe what you want.

This is an appeal to authority my dear brother. The only appeal to authorities that are valid are the Messenger of Allah saw, and also the righteous of the Imams of his progeny.

Blindly following any scholar, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is hardly a criteria one should employ to seek truth.

 

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Guest Sincere said:

This is an appeal to authority my dear brother. The only appeal to authorities that are valid are the Messenger of Allah saw, and also the righteous of the Imams of his progeny.

Blindly following any scholar, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is hardly a criteria one should employ to seek truth.

 

There is an overwhelming number of scholars who reject these narrations.

So essentially aren't you blindly following the scholars who agree with these narrations.

Do you believe Caliph Umar threatened to cut Imam Ali's hands if he didn't give Umm Kulthum to him in marriage?

Do you believe Imam Ali sent Umm Kulthum to be checked out by Caliph Umar to looked at her legs and agreed to the marriage?

Blind following is accepting stupid and insulting narrations towards Caliph-e-Rashidoon.

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

There are probably as many authentic narrations that reject it as there are they accept it

Is this really the case? Can you share some of these authentic narrations?

[Muslim2010]

5 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

There is an overwhelming number of scholars who reject these narrations.

So essentially aren't you blindly following the scholars who agree with these narrations.

Based on my learning about the event the following are the possible directions:

1. The marriage of Umme Kulsum daughter of Imam Ali, did not take place to the 2nd caliph.

2.  The marriage of girl named Umme Kulsum did take place to 2nd caliph but may happened force fully.

3.  The girl named as Umme Kulsum living in house of Imam Ali was daughter of 1st caliph Abu bakr who was married to 2nd caliph 

I do believe personally in the 3rd option.

wasalam

Edited August 3 by Muslim2010

[Ashvazdanghe]

Did Umar Marry Imam Ali's Daughter? 1/3 - Enquiries About Shi'a Islam 40/47

https://www.al-islam.org/media/did-umar-marry-imam-alis-daughter-13-enquiries-about-shia-islam-4047

Did Umar Marry Imam Ali's Daughter? 2/3 - Enquiries About Shi'a Islam 41/47

https://www.al-islam.org/media/did-umar-marry-imam-alis-daughter-23-enquiries-about-shia-islam-4147

Did Umar Marry Imam Ali's Daughter? 3/3 - Enquiries About Shi'a Islam 42/47

https://www.al-islam.org/media/did-umar-marry-imam-alis-daughter-33-enquiries-about-shia-islam-4247

[EiE]

what about this? @Abu_Zahra@Qa'im

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, EiE said:

what about this? @Abu_Zahra@Qa'im

The claim that the evidence was fabricated by the Ummayads doesn't match up with the fact that we have multiple authentic narrations in our books through trusted narrators confirming the marriage (as shown in this thread). 

As usual this is a case of trying to dismiss an event altogether just because it's easier than having to explain it. 

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/3/2024 at 1:03 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

Is this really the case? Can you share some of these authentic narrations?

You mean you missed Sheikh Mufid's refutation of the marriage from your own link?

What are the chances you will read what I cite?

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The claim that the evidence was fabricated by the Ummayads doesn't match up with the fact that we have multiple authentic narrations in our books through trusted narrators confirming the marriage (as shown in this thread). 

As usual this is a case of trying to dismiss an event altogether just because it's easier than having to explain it. 

so the evidence is not enough then? I guess what you do not know about is the differences in accounts of how this happened is what casts doubts in it occurring.

So do you believe Umar forced himself into this marriage OR Imam Ali willingly gave his daughter to Umar including letting him check out her legs?

 

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You mean you missed Sheikh Mufid's refutation of the marriage from your own link?

No, but it wasn't based on narrations. In fact it was based primarily on the critique of a certain narrator, but this narrator doesn't actually feature in many of the narrations that we have going back to the Aimmah (عليه السلام)

So again my question: which narrations are you referring to which claim that the marriage didn't take place? 

[ShiaMan14]

16 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

No, but it wasn't based on narrations. In fact it was based primarily on the critique of a certain narrator, but this narrator doesn't actually feature in many of the narrations that we have going back to the Aimmah (عليه السلام)

So again my question: which narrations are you referring to which claim that the marriage didn't take place? 

The exact citation is, ""Consider Shaykh al-Mufīd’s refutation of the marriage between Umm Kulthum and ‘Umar in his al-Masaa’il al-Sarawiyyah.""

I made the text large so you can distinguish between the refutation of a narrator and the refutation of an event (marriage).

Now here are references that have denied the whole story: 

Some Shiite scholars have denied the whole story. Al-Shaykh al-Mufid says: "the hadith about Umm Kulthum's marriage with 'Umar is not reliable; its narrator is Zubayr b. Bakkar who was an enemy of Imam 'Ali (a).^[15]" Ibn Shahrashub quotes Abu Muhammad al-Nawbakhti as saying that there was a marriage vow, but since Umm Kulthum was too young, 'Umar had to wait until she grows up, but before their wedding, 'Umar passed away.^[16] According to Zabih Allah Mahallati, a reflection reveals that such a marriage never took place.^[17] Also some contemporary scholars have made arguments to show that the marriage did not take place.^[18]

Aqa Buzurg Tihrani mentions some books that have denied such a marriage:

• Ifham al-a'da wa al-khusum fi nafy 'aqd Umm Kulthum , by Nasir Husayn b. Amir Hamid Husayn.^[19]
• Tazwij Umm Kulthum bt. Amir al-Mu'minin wa inkar wuqu'ih (ithbat 'adamih) (The marriage of Umm Kulthum and the denial of its occurrence (showing its non-occurrence)) by Muhammad Jawad Balaghi.^[20]
• Radd al-Khawarij fi jawab radd al-Shia published in Urdu in Lahore.^[21]
• Risala fi tazwij 'Umar li Umm Kulthum bt. 'Ali (a) by Sulayman b. 'Abd Allah Mahuzi; just like al-Shaykh al-Mufid and Ibn Shahrashub, he denied the marriage.^[22]
• Al-'Ijala al-mufhima fi ibtal riwaya nikah Umm Kulthum by Sayyid Mustafa Dildar 'Ali al-Naqawi.^[23]
• Qawl Mahtum fi 'Aqd Umm Kulthum by Sayyid Kiramat 'Ali Hindi.^[24]
• Kanz Maktum fi hall 'aqd Umm Kulthum by Sayyid 'Ali Azhar al-Hindi.^[25]

Some contemporary scholars have written books on the denial of this marriage; for example, Sayyid 'Ali Milani has written books such as Tazwij Umm Kulthum min 'Umar (Marriage of Umm Kulthum with 'Umar) and Fi khabar tazwij Umm Kulthum min 'Umar (On the hadith regarding Umm Kulthum's marriage with 'Umar).

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Marriage_of_Umm_Kulthum_with_'Umar_b._al-Khattab

You still have not answered the question about whether Umar forcefully married Umm Kulthum or if Imam Ali gave her to him willingly?

[Abu_Zahra]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:10 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

There are probably as many authentic narrations that reject it as there are they accept it.

@ShiaMan14 thanks for your post brother, but somehow I'm still missing the authentic narrations that 'reject' the marriage? 

[Muslim2010]

Third Account: Umm Kulthum, Abu Bakr's Daughter

Some scholars have suggested that the Umm Kulthum who married 'Umar was the daughter of Abu Bakr, rather than Imam 'Ali (a). A Sunni scholar, al-Nawawi, has accepted this account in his book, Tahdhib al-asma'.^[26] In a footnote on the book, Ihqaq al-haqq, Ayatollah Mar'ashi Najafi accepts this account. He takes Umm Kulthum to be Asma' bt. 'Umays, Abu Bakr's wife, who married Imam 'Ali (a) after Abu Bakr's death. Imam 'Ali (a) took her daughter, Umm Kulthum, to his own house, and then she was married to 'Umar. Since she was Imam 'Ali (a)'s step-daughter, some people mistook her to be Imam 'Ali (a)'s daughter, rather than Abu Bakr's.^[27]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Marriage_of_Umm_Kulthum_with_'Umar_b._al-Khattab

@EiE

Edited August 10 by Muslim2010

[EiE]

4 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Third Account: Umm Kulthum, Abu Bakr's Daughter

Some scholars have suggested that the Umm Kulthum who married 'Umar was the daughter of Abu Bakr, rather than Imam 'Ali (a). A Sunni scholar, al-Nawawi, has accepted this account in his book, Tahdhib al-asma'.^[26] In a footnote on the book, Ihqaq al-haqq, Ayatollah Mar'ashi Najafi accepts this account. He takes Umm Kulthum to be Asma' bt. 'Umays, Abu Bakr's wife, who married Imam 'Ali (a) after Abu Bakr's death. Imam 'Ali (a) took her daughter, Umm Kulthum, to his own house, and then she was married to 'Umar. Since she was Imam 'Ali (a)'s step-daughter, some people mistook her to be Imam 'Ali (a)'s daughter, rather than Abu Bakr's.^[27]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Marriage_of_Umm_Kulthum_with_'Umar_b._al-Khattab

@EiE

 

Imam Ali married Abu Bakr's wife after his death? I didn't know this

[Muslim2010]

On 8/10/2024 at 4:51 PM, EiE said:

Imam Ali married Abu Bakr's wife after his death? I didn't know this

Asmāʾ bt. ʿUmays (Arabic: أسماء بنت عُمَیس) , (b. ? - d. after 38/658-9), is one of the female companions of Prophet Muhammad (s). She embraced Islam along with her husband, Ja'far b. Abi Talib; so she was among the first Muslims. After the martyrdom of Ja'far in the Battle of Muta, she married Abu Bakr. When Abu Bakr died, She married Imam Ali (a). Asma' is the mother of Muhammad b. Abi Bakr.

Asma' bt. Umays - wikishia

Asma was the wife of older brother of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Ja'far b. Abi Talib. 

Edited August 11 by Muslim2010

[ShiaMan14]

On 8/10/2024 at 2:06 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

@ShiaMan14 thanks for your post brother, but somehow I'm still missing the authentic narrations that 'reject' the marriage? 

I figured the 7-8 books listed wouldn't be sufficient for someone as learned as you. 

So let's assume the entire world accepts the marriage. I will even declare it a day as great as the of the Ali+Fatima's wedding.

You still haven't answered which narrative is true of this joyous wedding - Umar forcing himself into the family of Ali OR Imam Ali willingly letting Umar check out the legs of Umm Kulthum for marriage. 

[Guest Shermeen]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:53 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

You should learn to read more - the article you referenced mentions several scholars refuting the Umm Khulthum-Umar marriage including Sheikh Mufid.

 

Let's see - The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) rejected Umar's proposal for Hz Fatima (عليه السلام) because of their age difference so naturally Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would then give his 3-6 year old daughter to Umar 20 years later...makes perfect sense.

 

The Prophet (saww) did not refuse Umar’s proposal.  Syeda Fatima (SA) herself refused.  It was her decision.  Likewise, the Prophet (saww) did not accept imam Ali’s (عليه السلام) proposal. Syeda Fatima (SA)  did.  The prophet (saww) always asked her about every suitor and she refused every one of them except imam Ali (عليه السلام).  She did him the honor of accepting his proposal.  

[Abu_Zahra]

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I figured the 7-8 books listed wouldn't be sufficient for someone as learned as you. 

You mentioned the existence of authentic narrations, yet they seemed to be missing in your post. Was this simply a mistaken claim from your side , or did you just forget to post them?

Thanks. 

Edited August 11 by Abu_Zahra