Hudud upon on insane person and suicide

[PureExistence1]

Salaam,

Hudud Allah doesnt apply to  non baligh children and the insane, so what happens when a person reaches the point of thinking suicide is a viable option?

A normal, mentally well person does not view suicide as an option and therefore hudud Allah applies, however, once someones mental health deteriorates beyond a certain point that suicide actually sounds like a good, viable idea, clearly they are not sane at this point.

What happens now? They burn in hellfire forever because things outside their control became too much, their mental capacity deteriorated and they committed suicide?

Im talking about a mental issue, not simply "losing hope" in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which is obviously a sin. Having a mental breakdown and "losing hope" are not the same things.

Jzk

[EiE]

it's sad that such person and his family would be punished twice, once in this life and then also in the hereafter, if this would be true.

Belief is in the absence of evidence. Hence its name. God knows best

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

What happens now? They burn in hellfire forever because things outside their control became too much, their mental capacity deteriorated and they committed suicide?

Nobody commits suicide when their mental capacity deteriorated which committing suicide is result of choosing worst option with sane mind ; any type of deterioration of mental capacity is a stage of insanity from very mild to sever insanity . 

6 hours ago, EiE said:

it's sad that such person and his family would be punished twice, once in this life and then also in the hereafter, if this would be true.

Belief is in the absence of evidence. Hence its name. God knows best

you come to weired conclusion based on your delusional emotions due to following any type of distortion in religion by you . 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 7/29/2024 at 2:32 AM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam,

Hudud Allah doesnt apply to  non baligh children and the insane, so what happens when a person reaches the point of thinking suicide is a viable option?

A normal, mentally well person does not view suicide as an option and therefore hudud Allah applies, however, once someones mental health deteriorates beyond a certain point that suicide actually sounds like a good, viable idea, clearly they are not sane at this point.

What happens now? They burn in hellfire forever because things outside their control became too much, their mental capacity deteriorated and they committed suicide?

Im talking about a mental issue, not simply "losing hope" in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which is obviously a sin. Having a mental breakdown and "losing hope" are not the same things.

Jzk

When we look at how Prophet (PBUHHP) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) imposed Hudud, we see both the examples of forgiveness due to a valid reason and strict implementation of the Hudud for prevention of social disease in a society. In cases of forgiveness, there were valid reasons such as people felt extreme guilt and asked for forgiveness with sincerity of heart and in some cases the punishment of a criminal was not imposed because someone else' future was associated with it. These conditions are best known to Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Prophets and Imams. Likewise, the state of an insane person is only known to Allah, the Prophets, Imams and the person himself. Secondly, it has to be seen whether what led this insane person to suicide, whether it were the society or negligence of his own relatives, as Quran says no one can be accounted for the sins of others that is why the reason due to which he commits suicide is important because it might be that it was negligence of society or his relatives that made him insane and to such extent that he committed suicide so he cannot be accused of his such condition. Moreover, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says that in certain conditions action of person is not counted as legally committed by him namely while in anger, while in sleep, intoxicated or during insanity. So, these are the rules made by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is most loving and caring of his creation. However, if there is an insane person is muslim, he must be constantly reminded that he is not the owner of his life, life belongs to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) therefore he must be taken good care and it should be ensured to that he sees a good psychiatrist and gets good medication and constantly be encouraged to engage in life. 

[PureExistence1]

8 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

When we look at how Prophet (PBUHHP) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) imposed Hudud, we see both the examples of forgiveness due to a valid reason and strict implementation of the Hudud for prevention of social disease in a society. In cases of forgiveness, there were valid reasons such as people felt extreme guilt and asked for forgiveness with sincerity of heart and in some cases the punishment of a criminal was not imposed because someone else' future was associated with it. These conditions are best known to Allah (عزّ وجلّ), Prophets and Imams. Likewise, the state of an insane person is only known to Allah, the Prophets, Imams and the person himself. Secondly, it has to be seen whether what led this insane person to suicide, whether it were the society or negligence of his own relatives, as Quran says no one can be accounted for the sins of others that is why the reason due to which he commits suicide is important because it might be that it was negligence of society or his relatives that made him insane and to such extent that he committed suicide so he cannot be accused of his such condition. Moreover, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) says that in certain conditions action of person is not counted as legally committed by him namely while in anger, while in sleep, intoxicated or during insanity. So, these are the rules made by Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is most loving and caring of his creation. However, if there is an insane person is muslim, he must be constantly reminded that he is not the owner of his life, life belongs to Allah (عزّ وجلّ) therefore he must be taken good care and it should be ensured to that he sees a good psychiatrist and gets good medication and constantly be encouraged to engage in life. 

Salam and thanks for a kindly for the time you took to write this message. It makes a lot of sense to me. As usual, nothing is really black or white.. you brought many valid points.. I myself do not believe that if a person reaches the point where they think that suicide is the only way out, i believe they have mentally gone beyond the point of being an accountable person because nobody in their right, hudud Allah applicable mind, thinks suicide is a good idea. 

I appreciate you bringing the many factors that can contribute to suicide to the surface. There are definitely many reasons out there that a person could arrive at that conclusion. I myself have some physical ailments and have read numerous stories and case studies of people that were afflicted with health conditions that were not their fault, meaning, they weren't the result of their own bad Health decisions or other things, things like autoimmune diseases that happened to them of no fault of their own and unfortunately, this and other things such as extreme hormonal shifts, have driven many people to the point of suicide. I would see those people as being forgiven because neither autoimmune disease nor reaching the stage of life where your hormones are completely in a disarray and out of whack, are the fault of the individual, as long as they have made every effort possible to address their issue medically. If all those efforts have come to no fruition and the person is literally being driven insane by pain, that is not their fault.

I do have hope for those people that there will be forgiveness for them. How many of these people statistically are Muslims is beyond my knowledge, but I'm sure since autoimmune diseases and hormonal shifts such as menopause for women in later life happened indiscriminately, and across the board globally, I think I can safely assume that there will be a fair amount of Muslims in both categories. 

I really appreciate you giving this thorough thought and taking the time to write this. 

JazakAllahkheyr

[Abu Nur]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:32 AM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam,

Hudud Allah doesnt apply to  non baligh children and the insane, so what happens when a person reaches the point of thinking suicide is a viable option?

A normal, mentally well person does not view suicide as an option and therefore hudud Allah applies, however, once someones mental health deteriorates beyond a certain point that suicide actually sounds like a good, viable idea, clearly they are not sane at this point.

What happens now? They burn in hellfire forever because things outside their control became too much, their mental capacity deteriorated and they committed suicide?

Im talking about a mental issue, not simply "losing hope" in Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), which is obviously a sin. Having a mental breakdown and "losing hope" are not the same things.

Jzk

Salaam Aleikum,

For those people you have describe, there is narration that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will test them on Day of Judgement, and trough that test they will either enter Paradise or Hell.

[hawdini]

14 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

I do have hope for those people that there will be forgiveness for them

Sis Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the most forgiving. Im pretty sure hell was made as a deterrent for people and not something Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wants to throw people in. At least thats not how i see my Lord.

Edited August 11 by hawdini
x

[Borntowitnesstruth]

16 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salam and thanks for a kindly for the time you took to write this message. It makes a lot of sense to me. As usual, nothing is really black or white.. you brought many valid points.. I myself do not believe that if a person reaches the point where they think that suicide is the only way out, i believe they have mentally gone beyond the point of being an accountable person because nobody in their right, hudud Allah applicable mind, thinks suicide is a good idea. 

I appreciate you bringing the many factors that can contribute to suicide to the surface. There are definitely many reasons out there that a person could arrive at that conclusion. I myself have some physical ailments and have read numerous stories and case studies of people that were afflicted with health conditions that were not their fault, meaning, they weren't the result of their own bad Health decisions or other things, things like autoimmune diseases that happened to them of no fault of their own and unfortunately, this and other things such as extreme hormonal shifts, have driven many people to the point of suicide. I would see those people as being forgiven because neither autoimmune disease nor reaching the stage of life where your hormones are completely in a disarray and out of whack, are the fault of the individual, as long as they have made every effort possible to address their issue medically. If all those efforts have come to no fruition and the person is literally being driven insane by pain, that is not their fault.

I do have hope for those people that there will be forgiveness for them. How many of these people statistically are Muslims is beyond my knowledge, but I'm sure since autoimmune diseases and hormonal shifts such as menopause for women in later life happened indiscriminately, and across the board globally, I think I can safely assume that there will be a fair amount of Muslims in both categories. 

I really appreciate you giving this thorough thought and taking the time to write this. 

JazakAllahkheyr

Dear sister, what I said in the post was about the people who are insane or who have lost control of their mind. In case of sane people, Islam asks them to live their lives no matter what problems they are encountering because it may happen that they find a cure for their disease or get in control of their situation. Even if a person is diagnosed with life threatening disease and there is no cure for him, he must live his time which Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has granted him. I read a Islamic story that a person was injured in the battle and was walking when the prophet (PBUHHP) saw him, he said that look at this person he is walking towards the heaven but will end in hell. what the person did next was that he could not bear the pain of his injury and took his own life. As a Muslim, we have to keep faith in Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and try to live our lives even though we have short time by doing good to other people and who knows Allah (عزّ وجلّ) may get happy with us and we may not feel any difficulty while leaving this world or in hereafter. I have seen this trauma happening to various people including myself but we are not to lose hope in Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

[Guest Window]

Suicide is absolutely forbidden.

There is nothing that constitutes as “insane” in the modern sense. Yes, it’s sad when a Muslim, due to mental health issues, commits suicide. However, it’s our job to take care of our mental health, and go to therapists and psychiatrists when things get bad. 

If you’re in pain, I can assure you that pain will end. It might seem never-ending when in the throes of depression, but it will.  

[PureExistence1]

9 hours ago, Guest Window said:

Suicide is absolutely forbidden.

There is nothing that constitutes as “insane” in the modern sense. Yes, it’s sad when a Muslim, due to mental health issues, commits suicide. However, it’s our job to take care of our mental health, and go to therapists and psychiatrists when things get bad. 

If you’re in pain, I can assure you that pain will end. It might seem never-ending when in the throes of depression, but it will.  

Salaam, this post isnt about "me" personally, however, while researching my own issues, i have come across a lot of cases people who unfortunately ended their lives in suicide due to the severity of their problems.

Sometimes a person does all they can (therapy, meds,religion, etc) and it still isnt enough and an all forgiving, all knowing all loving God is aware of all the variables that us humans are not aware of in these cases.

That being said, there is ALWAYS an exception to every rule and in every circumstance. We can eat pig meat if starving, we can steal an apple if starving, we can lie about our faith if we are in danger, etc.

If a person is legit insane, suicide literally sounds like a viable solution. The proof for their insanity is that no "sane" person would take their own life. Yes, it is forbidden in islam, and some sins are greater than others, but in the end, man is created weak.

Not everyone is mentally "down" for the challenges they face. Everyone has a breaking point and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows that as He created us.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 8/12/2024 at 7:55 AM, PureExistence1 said:

If a person is legit insane, suicide literally sounds like a viable solution. The proof for their insanity is that no "sane" person would take their own life. Yes, it is forbidden in islam, and some sins are greater than others, but in the end, man is created weak.

Not everyone is mentally "down" for the challenges they face. Everyone has a breaking point and Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows that as He created us.

Salam a legit insane maybe harms him/herself without intention of killing him/herself but on the other hand committing suicide is intentional killing of yourself by having  sane mind ; so therefore the legit insane never commits suicide even he/her hurts him/herself  seriously because He/She has no intention of killing of him/herself due to his/her insanity .

Mental break down of a sane person for any reason or nay situation is not equivalent to insanity which even in case of suicided after mental break down due to any sever condition is forbidden by Islam which Islam has many solutions for facing with mental break down so therefore suicide for sane person due to mental break down is forbidden in all conditions which using survival rules likewise eating meat  of pig for survival doesn't justify it which you have used forbidden Qiyas for justifying Suicide .

On 8/12/2024 at 7:55 AM, PureExistence1 said:

Sometimes a person does all they can (therapy, meds,religion, etc) and it still isnt enough and an all forgiving, all knowing all loving God is aware of all the variables that us humans are not aware of in these cases

It doesn't justify suicide which Allah won't forgive anyone who has committed suicide because such person has disappointed from Mercy of Allah which he has satanic mindset that Allah can't solve his/her problem so therefore he/She has committed Shirk by committing suicided . 

On 8/12/2024 at 7:55 AM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam, this post isnt about "me" personally, however, while researching my own issues, i have come across a lot of cases people who unfortunately ended their lives in suicide due to the severity of their problems.

They have loosen their faith when they have committed suicide so therefore they will be judged as unbelievers & people who have committed Shirk . 

[PureExistence1]

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

They have loosen their faith when they have committed suicide so therefore they will be judged as unbelievers & people who have committed Shirk . 

So then Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Mercy doesnt outweigh His wrath in this case?

[PureExistence1]

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

such person has disappointed from Mercy of Allah which he has satanic mindset that Allah can't solve his/her problem

Sometimes physical pain is too much. Anyone with chronic severe pain knows this, how each day is a living hell.

Im trying to see Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Justice in allowing someone to be tortured every day by severe pain, but something is not right.

Even if a person is trapped under rubble for many days after a b*mbing, at least they die of starvation or dehydration soon-not live their lives in pain for 10, 15, 20+ years. There is no quality of life like this, even their ibadah suffers cuz theres too much pain to do anything. Astagfirullah, maybe some people DO completely lose faith-because why God has given them such a terrible existence?

Yes, there are many people with terrible problems and pains. I ask the same question about their situation, not saying one persons pain is worse than another so the other guy should just be "ok and accept his pain and do duas"... No one can say Nasrs pain is worse that Jawads pain, because for each person, it is just as hard and the reality is true-pain sucks and is sometimes too hard for some to accept and they just get tired of dealing with it every day. Chronic pain robs a peron of their strength, happiness, family life, spiritual life,everything:(

Where is the mercy or hope for things to change after so many years? 

I dont get it.

Doesnt Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) judge people based on their knowledge, ability, and many other parameters that are unknown to us? Not everyone understands irfan so why would Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) judge someone harshly (astagfirullah) who isnt competent or able to be judged in such a way?

Most people dont even know the true meaning of shirk-they think it is only "dont say there is an equal or partner with God" etc. Most have very weak understanding of what you have said. So what about these people? They cant be held to the same standard as Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli, may Allah preserve him.

[PureExistence1]

Salaam to everyone reading this thread-

I just want to make a disclaimer here that I am not at all advocating for suicide.

It is unanimous that it is HARAM  and FORBIDDEN in islam.

I am after a discussion of what happens in the hereafter under such circumstances.  

I'd like to discuss the issues that may lead somebody to commit such an action and  what the implications for the afterlife are for someone who commits this act. 

-IM NOT AT ALL ADVOCATING FOR OR IN FAVOR OF SUICIDE-IT IS CATEGORICALLY FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM AS WELL AS JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY-

Edited August 13 by PureExistence1

[EiE]

I am writing based on my own personal experience / beliefs. Take it with grain of salt.

 

First and foremost, I find the notion of paradise and hell complex and often ambiguous. We cannot claim to fully understand what these realms entail, nor can we assert with certainty that an afterlife exists at all. However, as Muslims, we uphold the belief in paradise and hell. It’s though important to recognize that belief alone does not validate to truth. Just because we believe something, doesn't mean it's the truth.

At times, I ponder whether religion might serve as a form of "mind control" or a mechanism for managing populations for nefarious reasons. The promise of paradise for "good" deeds and the fear of hellfire for "bad" deeds. There seem to be a lot of psychology involved.

 

The psychological aspect at play, leads me to wonder, if many people engage in worship and perform good deeds primarily for the promise of paradise and to avoid the fear of hellfire. It seems that their motivations may stem more from a system of rewards and punishments rather than a genuine belief in the righteousness of their actions or a desire to please God. This raises questions about the underlying motivations for religion and morality, suggesting that for some, the relationship with the divine may be more transactional than heartfelt.

[Ashvazdanghe]

21 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

So then Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Mercy doesnt outweigh His wrath in this case?

Salam , surely no which Mercy of Allah outweighs his wrath for sincere repenter not for someone who has committed suicide although of receiving warning from Allah . 

20 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Im trying to see Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Justice in allowing someone to be tortured every day by severe pain, but something is not right.

Even if a person is trapped under rubble for many days after a b*mbing, at least they die of starvation or dehydration soon-not live their lives in pain for 10, 15, 20+ years. There is no quality of life like this, even their ibadah suffers cuz theres too much pain to do anything. Astagfirullah, maybe some people DO completely lose faith-because why God has given them such a terrible existence?

you can find clear examples of veterans of Sacred defense of Iran against cursed Saddam which they have more severe life than your example which although their too severe pain they have not losen their hope & their faith although they have more severe life than your example which after bombing & facing  starvation or dehydration even losing body parts & becoming paraplegic & losing many abilities & having too painful life even after 20+ years   still they have preserved their faith .

 Allah doesn't give pain in amount that someone loses his/her faith which he will give someone in return to enduring his/her pain but on the other hand cursed Shaitan leads him/her to lose his/her faith by similar logic in similar fashion your false logic .

20 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Doesnt Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) judge people based on their knowledge, ability, and many other parameters that are unknown to us? Not everyone understands irfan so why would Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) judge someone harshly (astagfirullah) who isnt competent or able to be judged in such a way?

you are playing with words just to justify Suicide against will of Allah  .

20 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Most people dont even know the true meaning of shirk-they think it is only "dont say there is an equal or partner with God" etc. Most have very weak understanding of what you have said. So what about these people? They cant be held to the same standard as Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli, may Allah preserve him.

understanding it doesn't need that you be likewise Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli, may Allah preserve him. because it's crystal clear that suicide is haram for any reason . 

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 hours ago, EiE said:

The psychological aspect at play, leads me to wonder, if many people engage in worship and perform good deeds primarily for the promise of paradise and to avoid the fear of hellfire. It seems that their motivations may stem more from a system of rewards and punishments rather than a genuine belief in the righteousness of their actions or a desire to please God. This raises questions about the underlying motivations for religion and morality, suggesting that for some, the relationship with the divine may be more transactional than heartfelt.

Salam this type of worship has been described as worship of traders by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which such people perform good deeds for for the promise of paradise and to avoid the fear of hellfire. .

Hadith n. 237

237. Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, said: A group of people worshipped Allah out of desire for reward surely, this is the worship of traders. Another group worshipped Allah out of fear; this is the worship of slaves. Still another group worshipped Allah out of gratefulness; this is the worship of free men.

237. وقال عليه السلام : إِنَّ قَوْماً عَبَدُوا اللهَ رَغْبَةً فَتِلْكَ عِبَادَةُ التُّجَّارِ، وَإِنَّ قَوْماً عَبَدُوا اللهَ رَهْبَةً فَتِلْكَ عِبَادَةُ الْعَبِيدِ، وَإِنَّ قَوْماً عَبَدُوا اللهَ شُكْراً فَتِلْكَ عِبَادَةُ الاْحْرَارِ.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali#hadith-n-323

Quote

“About the types of worshippers, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said, “There are three categories of worshipers: Some worship because of the fear of hell, some because of the desire for heaven, and some because of the love of God. I belong to the third category”. These enlightening words do not only refer to prayer and fasting, but it includes Jihad too. Some participate Jihad because it is a religious duty. They are afraid that if they do not fight, they will commit a violation of Sharia and may be punished by God. Some strive to increase their rank in heaven. But some fight only for God. 

https://shiite.news/shiitenews/iran/item/149953-ayatollah-javadi-amoli-martyr-soleimani-struggled-for-islam-quran-ahlulbayt-irans-nation/#:~:text=“About the types of worshippers%2C,but it includes Jihad too

 

[PureExistence1]

18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's crystal clear that suicide is haram for any reason . 

Salaam, im not saying its not haram, im saying that some people just cant handle the pain they are given. People are not equal in their tolerance. This doesn't mean i think suicide is not haram, i KNOW it is, im only saying that some people are too weak to handle their trials.

I guess they will burn in hell as well as have a miserable life here. It is the only conclusion that i can come to. Im sorry for them