What's the point of an Imam in Occultation?

[EiE]

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

[Muslim2010]

On 7/27/2024 at 3:40 AM, EiE said:

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

 

 

[EiE]

On 7/28/2024 at 9:07 AM, Muslim2010 said:

 

can you summarize please

[Muslim2010]

On 7/28/2024 at 11:40 AM, EiE said:

can you summarize please

• 1. The philosophy of Ghayba in the light of history of the prophets has been detailed in the given link.

• It provides in depth information by the examples of prophets, for the concept of Ghaybah / Occultation of Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام)  that some people try to deny / refute ignorantly.

You may like to read if you intend to learn the concept and evidences.

wasalam

[Abu Hadi]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:40 PM, EiE said:

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

I've wondered about this myself. Based on my study and research I've centered around a few reasons

1. He is the last Imam((عليه السلام)), the last Hujjat (proof of God on earth). In order to ensure that he isn't killed like all the other Imams were,  by the tyrants of their time, he must have sufficient support. He is waiting for that sufficient support. The 313 commanders and their supporters (soldiers), which I have read initially is a few thousand. Once there is that type of support, he will appear, i.e. come out of Ghaiba. In other words, we are not waiting for the Imam ((عليه السلام)), the Imam is waiting for us to get our act together and stop doing so many sins so that we could be his solid supporters. It is sin, and especially the sins of the followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), because these will be his main initial supporters, that stops us from being ready to support our Imam and thus stops him from coming out of Ghaiba. 

The main effect of sin is that is corrodes Iman (faith in Allah(s.w.a)) and corrodes our desire to do good and avoid evil. Anyone who has weak (corroded) faith and doesn't have a strong desire to do good (hasanat) and avoid evil will not be a supporter of the Imam, doesn't matter if they are Hashimi Sayyid or everyone in their family are ulema. 

2. It is a test for us from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is testing the Ummah to see which ones will stay in the state of active waiting for the Imam (i.e. avoiding sins and doing good) even though they can't see him or communicate with him and which ones won't do that. 

[Guest Married]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:40 PM, EiE said:

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

If you could identify three major reasons why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) installed the institution of Imamat after the Last Risalat, then I could guarantee you that you would get to your answer yourself inshAllah.  

[EiE]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:43 PM, Abu Hadi said:

1. He is the last Imam((عليه السلام)), the last Hujjat (proof of God on earth). In order to ensure that he isn't killed like all the other Imams were,  by the tyrants of their time, he must have sufficient support. He is waiting for that sufficient support. The 313 commanders and their supporters (soldiers), which I have read initially is a few thousand. Once there is that type of support, he will appear, i.e. come out of Ghaiba. In other words, we are not waiting for the Imam ((عليه السلام)), the Imam is waiting for us to get our act together and stop doing so many sins so that we could be his solid supporters. It is sin, and especially the sins of the followers of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)), because these will be his main initial supporters, that stops us from being ready to support our Imam and thus stops him from coming out of Ghaiba. 

The main effect of sin is that is corrodes Iman (faith in Allah(s.w.a)) and corrodes our desire to do good and avoid evil. Anyone who has weak (corroded) faith and doesn't have a strong desire to do good (hasanat) and avoid evil will not be a supporter of the Imam, doesn't matter if they are Hashimi Sayyid or everyone in their family are ulema. 

I find it hard to accept that explanation. The situation of the ummah isn't improving, especially in non Muslim societies. Without a divinely appointed leader, I struggle to see a pathway to improvement.

How can we guide ourselves without our guide? Some might argue that the Quran is sufficient, but if that were the case, why do we need the 12th Imam?

It seems that often, when we encounter concepts we don't fully understand, we resort to defending them with a mix of logic and faith, convincing ourselves to believe without any tangible evidence.

After waiting for over a thousand years, what gives us confidence that we won't have to wait another millennium? None of us can predict how the world will evolve, but if I'm not mistaken, a thousand years ago, the world was arguably more spiritual than it is today. Given that reality, what basis do we have for expecting an increase in spirituality over the next thousand years without our Imam present? It seems to me that the world is becoming less spiritual, with more sins occurring.

How does this reconcile with our beliefs?

On 7/28/2024 at 1:43 PM, Abu Hadi said:

2. It is a test for us from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is testing the Ummah to see which ones will stay in the state of active waiting for the Imam (i.e. avoiding sins and doing good) even though they can't see him or communicate with him and which ones won't do that. 

Additionally, why would Allah test us in this manner? If someone doesn't believe in the Imam, wouldn't it be beneficial for him to be present to affirm his existence?

is this justice? what's justice?

The existence of the Imam cannot be proven definitively, no matter how many hadith reference him. Ultimately, it comes down to personal belief. How can we be condemned for disbelief in an absent figure?

I can’t help but feel that fear and reward play disproportionate roles in religious beliefs and practices, leading me to question whether religion is more about societal control than the pursuit of truth.

[Muslim2010]

On 7/28/2024 at 5:54 PM, EiE said:

The existence of the Imam cannot be proven definitively, no matter how many hadith reference him. Ultimately, it comes down to personal belief. How can we be condemned for disbelief in an absent figure?

Just because one of the imam has been kept hidden from our yes, its presence cannot be denied, If for the sake of discussion i accept this assumption then the presence of the prophets including our last prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  will also be denied. The presence of the angels from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is also denied the presence of all followers of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) including companions is also denied as we have not seen any of them. Then finally the presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be denied as we have not seen any of them but we believe in all of them.

Finally, have you seen the ibless / shaitan , do you deny its presence? If you accept his presence then automatically as per justice of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we need one person from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to guide the people in present time though we have not seen him.

wasalam

[EiE]

Has there ever been a pause of this duration (1000+years) for an imam or prophet in the history of humanity?

Why would Allah leave us that long without our leader, I don't understand this.

[Abu Hadi]

On 7/28/2024 at 5:54 PM, EiE said:

I find it hard to accept that explanation. The situation of the ummah isn't improving, especially in non Muslim societies. Without a divinely appointed leader, I struggle to see a pathway to improvement.

How can we guide ourselves without our guide? Some might argue that the Quran is sufficient, but if that were the case, why do we need the 12th Imam?

It seems that often, when we encounter concepts we don't fully understand, we resort to defending them with a mix of logic and faith, convincing ourselves to believe without any tangible evidence.

After waiting for over a thousand years, what gives us confidence that we won't have to wait another millennium? None of us can predict how the world will evolve, but if I'm not mistaken, a thousand years ago, the world was arguably more spiritual than it is today. Given that reality, what basis do we have for expecting an increase in spirituality over the next thousand years without our Imam present? It seems to me that the world is becoming less spiritual, with more sins occurring.

How does this reconcile with our beliefs?

Additionally, why would Allah test us in this manner? If someone doesn't believe in the Imam, wouldn't it be beneficial for him to be present to affirm his existence?

is this justice? what's justice?

The existence of the Imam cannot be proven definitively, no matter how many hadith reference him. Ultimately, it comes down to personal belief. How can we be condemned for disbelief in an absent figure?

I can’t help but feel that fear and reward play disproportionate roles in religious beliefs and practices, leading me to question whether religion is more about societal control than the pursuit of truth.

Rather than respond to these points, I would ask you to watch this video. I just found it. It explains all these better than I could 

 

[Diaz]

7 minutes ago, EiE said:

Has there ever been a pause of this duration (1000+years) for an imam or prophet in the history of humanity?

Why would Allah leave us that long without our leader, I don't understand this.

shouldn't you ask this question to other muslims first? We can't even stand together against oppressors, look what's happening to muslims around the world. Sadly many people still care about this dunya than afterlife. 

Edited July 29 by Diaz

[Abu Hadi]

23 minutes ago, EiE said:

Has there ever been a pause of this duration (1000+years) for an imam or prophet in the history of humanity?

Why would Allah leave us that long without our leader, I don't understand this.

We are not without a leader. The famous hadith that is accepted by all Shia give instructions for the believers during the Ghaib Al Kubra. The instructions from our Imam((عليه السلام)) are 'follow those who narrate our traditions, us the Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). They are They are a hujjat over you and I am the hujjat over them and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the hujjat over me'. 

'Those who narrate our traditions, us the Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام))' are our leaders. These are the marjaa' taqleed because they are the most knowledgeable of these traditions and they are adl(just). When we have an issue that we can't figure out what we know we go to them, just like the Shia during the time of the Imams((عليه السلام)) used to go to the Imam. 

It is only the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who want us to go without a leader and that is why they are constantly and consistently trying to defame our marjaa' so that we seperate from them. Obeying their fatawa and accepting their leadership and being loyal to them is the same as (during the Ghaib Al Kubra) obeying Imam Az Zaman(a.f.s) and being loyal to him. 

Edited July 29 by Abu Hadi

[ShiaMan14]

Is the presence of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) a guarantee for salvation?

Let's see - there were about 8 people who were present at the burial of the Prophet (saw); there were only 72 (150) to helped Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) when there were millions of Muslims in the world. Most of the imams were persecuted and killed with no reactions from the shias/Muslims.

Sad reality is if the Imam were to return from occulation today, he would either be put in jail or assassinated and most of us would do no more than shed a tear....we did that for 13 masoomeen so let's question the occultation when we are ready to defend the Imam.

[Guest Momin]

On 7/29/2024 at 4:21 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Is the presence of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) a guarantee for salvation?

Let's see - there were about 8 people who were present at the burial of the Prophet (saw); there were only 72 (150) to helped Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) when there were millions of Muslims in the world. Most of the imams were persecuted and killed with no reactions from the shias/Muslims.

Sad reality is if the Imam were to return from occulation today, he would either be put in jail or assassinated and most of us would do no more than shed a tear....we did that for 13 masoomeen so let's question the occultation when we are ready to defend the Imam.

Correction:

Shia Muslims were killed, tortured, imprisoned and were constantly persecuted economically and socially for their love and support of the Imams installed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Yes there were degrees of risks taken by individuals, some more and some less, but Shia Muslims history is as red as any blood could be. 

It’s the rest of the shameless, opportunistic, clueless Muslims aka Munafeqeen masses of other persuasions who time and again abandoned the Prophet and Aimah AS. 

In my understanding, the Last Imam isn’t among us yet - not because we Shia are bad, but because we aren’t good enough yet - know the difference please. 

[ShiaMan14]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:33 PM, Guest Momin said:

Correction:

Shia Muslims were killed, tortured, imprisoned and were constantly persecuted economically and socially for their love and support of the Imams installed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Yes there were degrees of risks taken by individuals, some more and some less, but Shia Muslims history is as red as any blood could be. 

It’s the rest of the shameless, opportunistic, clueless Muslims aka Munafeqeen masses of other persuasions who time and again abandoned the Prophet and Aimah AS. 

In my understanding, the Last Imam isn’t among us yet - not because we Shia are bad, but because we aren’t good enough yet - know the difference please. 

Fair enough - I didnt want to undermine the sacrifices shias have made over the past 1,400 years and continue to do so.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 7/27/2024 at 3:40 AM, EiE said:

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

 

Well, it is not for only Ummah but for whole humanity that our Imam is in occultation,. You ask the reason, the reason is that nations are punished for being so much ignorant and not struggling to honor the mercy of Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Allah (عزّ وجلّ) will not reveal him until He (عزّ وجلّ) tests nations and raise best people who could accompany him and protect him. This is the reason why Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is not among us. Were not Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) and Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) in minor occultations until Allah (عزّ وجلّ) tried people and ensured their safety. 

[skaswani]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:24 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Finally, have you seen the ibless / shaitan , do you deny its presence? If you accept his presence then automatically as per justice of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we need one person from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to guide the people in present time though we have not seen him.

wasalam

Interesting argument, but who has seen Satan! but compared to the office of prophet, have you ever heard any prophet who was gayab and yet guidening people! bro! you cannot compare two different entities on same benchmarks.

What was the need of sending 124000 prophets and Imams when Allah could have managed by one gayab prophet! and in that case I think our beloved prophet was the best candidate to be 1st and last manifested and gayab prophet! why to sent remaining 123999 prophets!

Think!

[JannahLM]

I always assumed that he went into Occultation to avoid being murdered like the others before him.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

4 hours ago, JannahLM said:

I always assumed that he went into Occultation to avoid being murdered like the others before him.

He went into occultation because Allah (عزّ وجلّ) wanted so. An Imam prefers Allah's (عزّ وجلّ) choice than his. If it were a normal good human being rather than Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام), he would have wanted to die instead of seeing that much injustice and his inability to change the life of people. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said in a narration that Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) would be waiting in the time of occultation like a camel that has lost hope in life. It means that Imam Mehdi (عليه السلام) is not happy about most of the people's conduct but He (عليه السلام) is content with what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has planned.

[layman]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:40 AM, EiE said:

Why have our imam been in occultation for over 1000years.

What's the point of this? how does this help the ummah?

 

Salam,

This is my point of view.

So that everyone can have a direct access to him for guidance, but to keep it as a secret. He comes with a proof.

He makes himself present to anyone who ask for guidance.., most will not realize it, except those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives permission.

Wallahualam 

Layman  

[layman]

In  addition,

We pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) toward the direction of Kaabah, that is physically in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

But, we must pray toward Mecca while we are in other parts of the world, eventhough we are not physically in Mecca.

The most important issue is that we are connected to Baitullah while praying. Then our prayer has meaning. Baitullah is not in physical realm.

Connection to Imam Mahdi is almost similar to our connection to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by being presence in Baitullah during prayer.  Baitullah is not physical, but Kaabah is. It doesn't matter where the Kaabah is, it is just simbolic for muslims to believe that that there is a place or physical entity approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for muslim to face toward when making prayer.

Some so-called sahabahs were physically with the Prophet, but they were not connected to his Prophethood. We are not physically with the Prophet, but we are connected to the Prophethood. That connection counts.

To have physically presence or in occultation are just means.  The most important thing, there are Tawheed, Prophethood and Imamah... in reality all these exist and we must adhere to these realities.

Wallahualam 

Layman

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/2/2024 at 5:37 AM, JannahLM said:

I always assumed that he went into Occultation to avoid being murdered like the others before him.

Salam this is minimum reason which everyone with any level of understanding can understand it which at first day of his reappearance his enemies won't lose any minute for killing him instantly which one of 5 major signs of reappearance is killing his ambassador with title of pure soul (Nafs-e-Zakiyyah)  beside Kaaba who is from his close relatives which he will send him to announce reappearance in later days but some  people around Kaaba who are from enemies of Imam Mahdi (aj) will mistaken him as Imam so then they will kill him instead of Imam Mahdi (aj) ; which after killing the "Pure soul (Nafs-e-Zakiyyah)" besides Kaaba Imam Mahdi (aj) will reappear besides Kaaba after nearly 15 days  which also  there is more hidden reasons for his occultation which anyone will understand based on his level of knowledge & insight & understanding . 

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Murder_of_al-Nafs_al-Zakiyya

https://www.al-islam.org/last-luminary-and-ways-delve-light-sayyid-ridha-husayni-mutlaq/responsibility-4-marifat-imam-part-4

Edited September 9 by Ashvazdanghe

[root]

Point is we managed to not protect 11 of them and they died alone and abandoned. 12th wont be given until we get our act together. Which is their ultimate goal to begin with. 

[Abu Hadi]

9 hours ago, root said:

Point is we managed to not protect 11 of them and they died alone and abandoned. 12th wont be given until we get our act together. Which is their ultimate goal to begin with. 

Exactly. Also, I would like to add and extend the point about Iblis. There are Muslims who believe Iblis misguides people from behind the scenes but they don't believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can guide people from behind the scenes thru Imam Mehdi(a.f.s). That's weird to me. Misguidance from behind the scenes, ok, but guidance from behind the scenes, no, not possible. 

Iblis is not a man with red skin and horns and a tail who pops out from behind a trash can in a dark alley way. He is a jinn who has an army that works for him (jund as shaytan) and this army is composed of other human beings who are incentivized by Iblis to misguide us. I think we as muslim agree that all this is real. So to balance this out, we have an Imam(a.f.s) who guides from behind the scenes and has his own army and followers who receive guidance from him from behind the scenes. These people are true followers and trustworthy and will never, ever reveal the fact that they are receiving guidance from Imam(a.f.s) because they don't want to lead the army of Iblis to him. The same way, those who are working directly for Iblis(la) and receiving instructions from him will never reveal this because then they would reveal who their sponsor is and everyone would recognize them for what they are, i.e. evil in pure form. 

BTW, there are many millions of people who are working for Imam(a.f.s) indirectly without knowing it (by following his commandments and guidance that is available to all of us) and also there are millions of people working for Iblis indirectly without knowing by not following the clear guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or believing they are 'above it' or it doesn't apply to them because they are special (because of their race, family, physical beauty, wealth, skills, etc). I am not talking about them, I am talking about those who are directly connected to the source.

This guidance and misguidance has been going on for many thousands of years. When the Zuhoor happens, then all this will be revealed and come out into the open and become public. I don't see why this is so hard for people to believe. 

 

Edited September 10 by Abu Hadi