Zaydism and the Caste System

[AbdelJabbar]

I was looking into Yemen and I came across information about a group of people called the Al Muhamashin or the Akhdam. The Akhdam are the Yemeni untouchables caste who are theorized to descend from African immigrants of the distant past. The rest of society views them with deep contempt. Intermarriage between them and the rest of society is taboo, and they live in abject poverty with poor access to housing, work, and healthcare. There is allegedly a saying in Yemen that goes "Clean your plate if it is touched by a dog, but break it if it's touched by a Khadem."

I discovered some additional claims on https://www.atbuosh.com/2021/06/hashemite-supremacy.html which I couldn't find any corroborating sources for. I will relate them in the hopes that others can verify inshaAllah. From the article: 

"During the Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen, which preceded the founding of the Republic of North Yemen in 1962, the Hashemite rulers (Imams) forbade those who do not belong to the Hashemite lineage from obtaining certain names – which included Mohammed, Ahmed, Abdullah, Abdulrahman, …etc – and forced those already named to change their names."

"The notion of Hashemite supremacy is manifested in the honorary titles that Hashemite supremacists give themselves, such as (Al-Ashrāf, Al-Sādah, Alawīyah, Al-Qanadīl, … etc). This comes in contrast to the disparaging nicknames they give to those who do not belong to their lineage (such as Zanābīl in Yemen)."

My point for raising these concerns is thus: isn't this proof that the Zaydi imamate is flawed and illegitimate? Would the rightful successors of the Prophet SAW, Lady Fatima AS, Imam Ali AS, Imam Hasan AS, and Imam Husayn AS allow such a caste system while they were in control of the government? What unique virtue does such a system hold when compared to the Sunni empires or the Fatimids that would legitimize it?

My critique is unrelated to the Houthi movement. I would appreciate any commentary or even counterpoints inshaAllah. Assalamualaikum.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 6/22/2024 at 4:23 PM, AbdelJabbar said:

My critique is unrelated to the Houthi movement. I would appreciate any commentary or even counterpoints inshaAllah. Assalamualaikum.

Salam your critique is unrelated to Houthi movement but on the other hand  writers of article specially Hadil Almowafak who "She recently graduated from Stanford University (’20) with a degree in Political Science" is a so called "research fellow at the Yemen Policy Center" & ex researcher of Mwatana Organization which both organizations are undoubtedly are American backed organization which both organization are working against Houthies under guise of violation of Human Rights by evil Houthies ;

which in similar fashion Mohammed Atbuosh undoubtedly has anti Islamic agenda by promotion of pre Islamic Yemen folklore with some controversial relation with  anti houthi Saudi-Emirati backed writers & websites who all of them have enmity with Hashemites (Sayeds in Yemen , Iraq , Iran) but on the other hand  they are promoting fake Hashemite of Jordan which is supporter of rogue zionist regime .

 conclusion

this article is just a bunch of nonsense based on some obsolete racist idioms against Houthies for defaming them & accusing them to racism & injustice & violation of human rights based American_Zionist  interests against f Houthies by accusing them as Iranian backed rebels  which their resistance against American-Zionist in favor of Palestinians has caused killing of  The Akhdam as human shields which Zanābīl Houthi thugs are oppressing these vulnerable minorities  in similar fashion of Uyghurs by evil China based on claim of American backed humanitarian organizations !!!!

 

https://www.sepad.org.uk/team/hadil-almowafak

 

https://almadaniyamag.com/author/mohammedatbuosh/

https://ibsu.academia.edu/MohammedAtbuosh/CurriculumVitae

 

An example of accusation of an Emirati backed journalist against Houthies  (in Arabic) 

https://al-ain.com/article/qandil-zanabeel-human-huthis-brotherhood

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Addendum 

Anti Islamic policy of Stanford university 

The other report — by Stanford’s Muslim, Arab, and Palestinian communities committee — described what it called “a rupture of trust” between students, staff and faculty. “These communities have felt afraid for their safety, unseen and unheard by university leadership,” it said.

According to this report, Stanford recorded more than 50 instances of Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab bias between October 2023 and May 2024, including assault, battery and theft. That is a 900 percent increase over the two prior academic years, the report said.

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Examples included: a threatening email from a Stanford alumnus to two undergraduate members of Students for Justice in Palestine with the subject line, “College Terror List — You Made It!”; a professor haranguing students at a pro-Palestinian protest, accusing them of doing “the work of Islamic jihad and Hamas”; and a printout of a Palestinian flag taken off a student’s door and ripped in half.

“For Muslim, Arab and Palestinian community members, Stanford’s decisions have diminished their sense of equality, inclusion and belonging on campus,” the report said. “These decisions have also sent a message to the whole university that Palestine is an exception to Stanford’s stated mission: a topic that one cannot study, discuss, or teach without potentially damaging one’s future.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/20/us/stanford-antisemitism-muslims-report.html

 

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Stanford University officials have sent the FBI a viral photo of a protester donning a green headband known to be worn by Hamas terrorists during a demonstration on campus.

 

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Stanford President Richard Saller and Provost Jenny Martinez said Monday the student encampment violates policies that prohibit overnight camping on campus. 

The university has submitted the names of students caught in violation to the Office of Community Standards (OCS) for disciplinary proceedings, the school leaders said.

 

https://nypost.com/2024/05/02/us-news/stanford-submits-deeply-disturbing-photo-of-campus-anti-israel-protester-wearing-hamas-headband-to-fbi/

 

 

[JannahLM]

This is sort of moot point as Zaydis do not even believe their Imams to be infallible. That's one place where they deviate hugely from us Twelvers and even Ismailis (Ismailis also believe in infallible Imams). Imams that are not infallible can obviously be in error. I think the main criteria they have for who can be Imam is being male and a sayyid, that's about it.

[Ashvazdanghe]

40 minutes ago, JannahLM said:

even Ismailis (Ismailis also believe in infallible Imams).

Salam Ismailis don't believe to infallibity of their Imams which their Imams inherit imamate likewise a monarchy dynasty. 

[skaswani]

On 7/22/2024 at 12:24 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Ismailis don't believe to infallibity of their Imams which their Imams inherit imamate likewise a monarchy dynasty. 

Really! can you pls share some authentic reference to prove your argument! as Ismaili I reject your claim!

Like Imami Shias, we believe that Imamate is a divinely inspired office and its succession is done thought the Nass.

Kindly don`t represent Ismailis, let them be their own advocate!

Thanks

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam

16 hours ago, skaswani said:

Really! can you pls share some authentic reference to prove your argument! as Ismaili I reject your claim!

According to Ismailis their so called Ismaili Imams are just infallible in judgment not other aspect of their life ;which they just  believe to total infallibility just for five people of cloak (Panjtan Pa’k) which Ismailis have preffered Isamil son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) over Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام)  because according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)"

According to Ghali viewpoint of Ismailis if their current So called Ismaili Imams are infallible likewise Panjtan Pa’k (five people of cloak) so therefore their so called Ismaili Imams are multiple gods in similar fashion of other Imams of Ghulats . 

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To the Ismailis, the Imam’s judgment is infallible, who knows who will bear the Noor of the Imamate after him.

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

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Once the missionaries of the Recreation Club, Bombay asked Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah about epithet of the Panjtan Pa’k. The Imam said, “Take a bar of gold and make its five pieces. You will call gold to each piece, simultaneously, will call gold to all five pieces together. This is an analogy of the Panjtan Pa’k.”

Panjtan pa’k ka bhed pichhanno, panchehi tan ek tan janno;
Panc’hi tan ka bhed jo pave’, vaikunth mahe’n to sohi jave’ (Satvenni Nani, 19)

“Know the mystery of Panjtan Pa’k (Five Chaste Personages), whose five bodies be known as One. One who generates mystery of the Panjtan Pa’k, he is exclusively entitled for the paradise.”
Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

Al-Mustansir had already designated (nass) to his eldest son Nizar as his successor and it was wholeheartedly accepted by most Ismaili circles. On the death of al-Mustansir (1094 CE), however, his prime minister and commander of the army, al-Afdal, proclaimed his brother-in-law, al-Mustali, a teenaged son of al-Mustansir as the successor to his father as the Fatimid Caliph. It is easily seen that al-Afdal had a vested interest in the appointment of al-Mustali, who had no public followings and who would consequently be dependent on his powerful patron.

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It seems that he had already figured it out before the death of al-Mustansir, as he gave his sister in marriage to this young prince and made the ties with him absolutely firm. Afdal explained to the public that the deceased Imam and Caliph, al-Mustansir billah, on his deathbed changed his nomination in favour of his younger son al-Mustali and cancelled his earlier nomination of his eldest son Nizar. He produced a few witnesses to certify the new nomination, and thus put al-Mustali on the throne of the Fatimid Caliphate. [20]

This decision, however, had far-reaching effects on the future aspiration of the Ismailis, who were totally split on this point of succession.

 

Ismailis loyal to Nizar, argued that the first nomination had never been cancelled and that it contradicted the basic principle of the Ismailis, and for the same principle they had not accepted the second nomination of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, and had remained faithful to his first nomination in favour of Ismail. Most Ismailis living within the countries under direct rule of the Fatimids accepted the Imamate of al-Mustali but those who supported Nizar as their Imam were forced to accept the Imamat of al-Mustali, who was duly installed as the 9th Fatimid Caliph in Cairo.

The supporters of Nizar managed to develop an Ismaili state in Iran and Syria whose founder and main architect was Hasan-i-Sabbah, the subject of my forthcoming book. He laid the foundations of a small but strong Ismaili state.

https://simerg.com/literary-readings/the-ismailis-fom-the-earliest-times-to-the-fall-of-the-fatimid-empire/

 

Examining the Ismaili Imams & the Bohras

Ali Azhar Arastu

 Dr. Zahid Ali quotes Idris Imad al-Din the 19^th Dai of Tayyibis, “Imam Musa al-Kadhim’s mother was a slave and an Imam cannot be born to a slave girl, whereas the mother of Muhammad Ibn Ismail was not a slave girl.” The Dai Idris gives the reason why the Ismailis do not accept Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam, just because he was born to a slave girl. This means that if Musa al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) would have been born to a wife of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), then the Ismailis would have accepted Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam. Then, what about Muhammad ibn Ismail? Then, what about their claim that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) appointed Musa al-Kadhim just to protect Muhammad Ibn Ismail? Furthermore, what is wrong if Imam al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) was born to a slave girl? The Ismailis do not accept him as an Imam because he was born to a slave girl! Nabi Ibrahim’s son Nabi Ismail (عليه السلام) was the son of Hajara (sa), who was also a slave girl of Nabi Ibrahim!

 

https://www.al-islam.org/examining-ismaili-imams-bohras-ali-azhar-arastu/ismaili-imams

related thread

 

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[skaswani]

Quote

Salam

According to Ismailis their so called Ismaili Imams are just infallible in judgment not other aspect of their life ;which they just  believe to total infallibility just for five people of cloak (Panjtan Pa’k) which Ismailis have preffered Isamil son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) over Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام)  because according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

Wsalam,

Sorry but totally rubbish! Ismailis believe that Imam Jafar al Sadiq a,s has designed his son Ismail a,s as his successor /an Imam after him through Nass and its well documented in Dr Farhad Daftary book The Ismailis and their Doctrine.

You can read it.

It is act that he was a non salve woman son, however according to Imami doctrines Nass is the only way of designation of Imamah.

 

Ismailis accepts their Imams as infallible (sinless and Rasikool fil ilm & Imam e Mubeen.

 

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Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)"

 

Don`t tell me 12ers don`t accept that the first thing Allah has created was Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali a,s from his Noor! Ismailis believe Imams are the Mazhar of Allah on Earth (due to uploading Allah`s Noor as referred in Quran also Noor un Ala Noor.

 

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Al-Mustansir had already designated (nass) to his eldest son Nizar as his successor and it was wholeheartedly accepted by most Ismaili circles. On the death of al-Mustansir (1094 CE), however, his prime minister and commander of the army, al-Afdal, proclaimed his brother-in-law, al-Mustali, a teenaged son of al-Mustansir as the successor to his father as the Fatimid Caliph. It is easily seen that al-Afdal had a vested interest in the appointment of al-Mustali, who had no public followings and who would consequently be dependent on his powerful patron.

 

 The succession of Imam Nizar (عليه السلام) is also well documented in Dr Farhad Daftary book The Ismailis and their Doctrine.
 

Since I am not Tayyabi, I will not comment on that!

 

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Salam Ismailis don't believe to infallibility of their Imams which their Imams inherit imamate likewise a monarchy dynasty. 

I am happy that you have changed from your above position from Ismailis perspective  

 

JazakAllah!

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:50 PM, skaswani said:

I am happy that you have changed from your above position from Ismailis perspective 

Salam i have not changed my mind about them which it's clear that all so called Ismaili Imams have inherited their position in similar fashion of any dynasty without having any qualification for it which "Aga khanid" dynasty is most corrupt dynasty which last of them is most corrupt person between them who has no qualification for being as so called Imam except buying everyone by his wealth that has been looted from his naive fans .

On 8/26/2024 at 5:50 PM, skaswani said:

The succession of Imam Nizar (عليه السلام) is also well documented in Dr Farhad Daftary book The Ismailis and their Doctrine.
 

Since I am not Tayyabi, I will not comment on that!

This person has no  authenticity which he is just an an apologist which his works are just a justification for proving Ismaili falsehood who receives funds from Aga khan IV to justify his falsehood which his works just good to know about history of Ismailism although contains justifications for supporting falsehood of the Ismailism. 

 

On 8/26/2024 at 5:50 PM, skaswani said:

Since I am not Tayyabi, I will not comment on that!

It's clear proof from historical facts which shows your falsehood whether you be the Tayyabi or Musta'li which both group are following the great falsehood. 

Edited August 28, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[skaswani]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:05 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam i have not changed my mind about them which it's clear that all so called Ismaili Imams have inherited their position in similar fashion of any dynasty without having any qualification for it which "Aga khanid" dynasty is most corrupt dynasty which last of them is most corrupt person between them who has no qualification for being as so called Imam except buying everyone by his wealth that has been looted from his naive fans .

This person has no  authenticity which he is just an an apologist which his works are just a justification for proving Ismaili falsehood who receives funds from Aga khan IV to justify his falsehood which his works just good to know about history of Ismailism although contains justifications for supporting falsehood of the Ismailism. 

It's clear proof from historical facts which shows your falsehood whether you be the Tayyabi or Musta'li which both group are following the great falsehood. 

First comment, just a statement without any evidence, thats all you have! gr8

Dr Farhad Daftary is a renowned academic, since he has shared the historical records in favor of Imam Ismail a,s being non Ismaili that is actually a problematic thing for you.

Dr Daftari has mentioned favorable accounts for Imam Nizari (عليه السلام) in his book.

I have no issue if you are 12er and you believe in occultation, please feel free to do so, however Nizari Imams have claimed that Imamate will continue till Qamayat , each Imam will be succeeded one and after in his male sons.

So, you follow your path and let us follow ours peacefully.

Thanks!

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, skaswani said:

First comment, just a statement without any evidence, thats all you have! gr8

Salam evidences about too much corruption of Aga Khan Iv is available on Internet which you can find it with a simple research if you have not blinded by your prejudice & stereotypes & void Ismaili slogans . 

 

This is tip of Iceberg of his corruption as from some exposed cases of his corruption

CRIMINAL COURT TO CHARGE PRINCE SHAH KARIM AL-HUSAYNI A.K.A AGA KHAN IV FOR THEFT AND FRAUD RELATED CASES IN UGANDA.

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Prince Shah Karim Al-Husayni Sha, the founder and chairman of the Aga Khan Fund for Economic Development, owning Diamond Trust Bank Group has been summoned by The Criminal Court in Uganda to answer Charges of THEFT, ELECTRONIC FRAUD, MAKING FALSE ENTRIES IN FINANCIAL LEDGERS, COMPUTER MISUSE, UTTERING FALSE DOCUMENTS & CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT FELONY alongside his staff: Nassim Mohamed Devji, The Group C.E.O & M.D DTB AFRICA, VARGHESE THAMBI, The C.E.O DTB Uganda and JOHN SITAKANGE, The Head Of Credit DTB Uganda.

This is the second time Diamond Trust Bank Top Management is being Summoned, in May 2021, the M.D was summoned by the Financial Intelligence for Money Laundering Related investigations.

https://ugandatimes.ug/ham-vs-dtb-dtb-uganda-m-d-summoned-by-fia-for-money-laundering-and-tax-evasion/

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According to Mr.Kiggundu’s affidavit, the top bank managers superintendent illegal and unlawful transactions of Shs 34,295,951,553 and $23,467,670 from his bank accounts.

https://ugandatimes.ug/dtblaundering/

 

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In March last year, Ham dragged both banks to court for dubiously debiting over Shs 120 billion from his accounts without his consent. The Bank acknowledged not having an operational license permitting to operate in Uganda as required by law on Court records and in a landmark Judgement of 7th October 2021 The High Court convicted Diamond Trust Bank Uganda and Kenya for Violating the Financial Institutions Acts of Both Uganda and Kenya and also Violating the Banking regulations among other illegalities committed.

https://ugandatimes.ug/dtbcollapse/

 

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Diamond Trust Bank appealed and on 5th May 2021, the appellant judges left the bank with an illegality burden which has since escalated into theft and fraud charges.

We shall keep you updated, Watch the Space!

https://ugandatimes.ug/dtbstained

https://ugandatimes.medium.com/criminal-court-to-charge-prince-shah-karim-al-husayni-a-k-a-77e9771ddd9f

How the Aga Khan was exonerated from taxes by Sarkozy

In a letter signed in 2008, former French President Nicolas Sarkozy used exceptional powers to exonerate the Aga Khan, one of the world’s richest royals, from paying any form of tax in France,

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where he is a resident, Mediapart can reveal. The fiscal status was approved by then-budget minister Eric Woerth, mayor of, and Member of Parliament for, the town of Chantilly, north of Paris, where the Aga Khan initiated and largely funded the financial rescue of the town’s historic racecourse and equestrian centre.

The letter, dated April 4th 2008 and exclusively revealed here, promised that the religious leader would benefit from an “exoneration of direct taxes, stamp duty and wealth tax.”

Woerth is currently cited in two judicial investigations into suspected corruption, one involving the financial affairs of L’Oréal heiress Liliane Bettencourt, the other into the sale of state-owned forest land to a horse-racing company in Compiègne, close to Chantilly. Fabrice Arfi and Karl Laske report.

https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/international/241012/how-aga-khan-was-exonerated-taxes-sarkozy

Corruption Charges on Aga Khan – Court Summons the Ismaili God

This is the court summons against the alleged criminal Aga Khan:

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https://agakhanism.com/karim-aga-khan-in-criminal-court/

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[skaswani]

There are much stuff available about 12ers Imams on Internet, but do you trust everything! 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:29 PM, skaswani said:

There are much stuff available about 12ers Imams on Internet, but do you trust everything! 

Salam surely I don't trust everything which through years of study & comparision I could reach to some level of finding reliable sources & refuting false information against 12er Shia Imamis  which I never have accepted anything blindly just due to prejudice & just relying on 12er sources which I have found most correct way by reading & examining everything even from sources of opponents of 12er Shia Imamis which I have reached to certainty & calmness of my heart based on extensive research & reading & examining even ideas of opponents of 12er Shia muslim Imamis  in opposition to stalking in prejudice & parroting nonsense & remaining in darkness of ignorance  which I hope so one day you will come out darkness into light of truth  by getting rid of prejudice & parroting nonsense  & examining your faith through reliable sources instead of relying on murky water sources of opponents of 12er Shia Imami muslims inshAllah . 

[Nur Ali 7337]

This just seems like an anti-Zaydi smear campaign in my opinion. Regardless of whether or not those statements have been said, they are not allowed in Zaydi Shia Islam or any Shia sect as the prophet Muhammad (SAWS) was against racism. Zaydi Muslims do not believe that the imams are infallible like the mainstream Shia (Ja³fariyyah) do. Because of this major difference, the Zaydi Imams doing something contrary to Islam doesn't disprove Zaydiyyah. We Zaydi Shia believe our imams can sin and contradict Islam, and when they do, we are obligated to rise up against them and their tyranny and allow for a better imam who is more just to come to power. This contradicts mainstream Twelver Shia beliefs such as infallibility of the imams. It's also noteworthy that Hashemite supremacy has never really existed in Islamic society and it is just a term the West made up to try to delegitmize Shia Muslim governments being allowed to appoint Shia clerics in charge, as of course many Shia clerics are going to be Sayyids, especially in sects like Zaydiyyah where one must be a descendent of the final prophet in order to proclaim imamat. I hope my response helped you. A lot of what I said had already been said but I also like to voice my opinion in my words. 

[Lion of Shia]

There is a cast system in Zaydi,my first time hearing this. I thought it was Hindu that had cast systems.

[Ashvazdanghe]

9 hours ago, Lion of Shia said:

There is a cast system in Zaydi,my first time hearing this. I thought it was Hindu that had cast systems.

Salam it's an accusation from Anti Shia & anti Iran moles who have tried to use an old slang for accusing Zaydis in Yemen to it because of their alliance with Iran & AOR (Axis Of Resistance)  against Zionists & thier moles .