Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

wagwan 

 

aight basically, i read about istihalah and im bare confuddled innit. Like what even on earth is happening. 

 

SO AS WE KNOW ISTIHALAH MAKES ANY NON HALAL CONSUMPTION PRODUCT, SUCH AS GELATIN, WINE, ETC HALAL 100% SINCE IT IS NOT CONSIDRED THE ORIGINAL PRODUCT ANYMORE VIA CHEMICAL CHANGE OR PRODUCTION. IM NOT CONFUSED ABOUT THIS I ALREADY KNOW THIS BIT READ BELOW PLS:

 

iM CONFUSED ABOUT HOW AM I MEANT TO DETERMINE IF something has gone thru istihalah, for example a gelatin is used in marshmellows, but that gelatin is heated, boiled, baked and blah blah, and a marshmellow clearly looks nothing like gelatin (nor tastes looks or feels like it )

 

many i have heard sheikhs say that any product saying "gelatin" on the back is halal bcuz its gone thru istihalah

 

I DONT DOUBT THEM NOT SAYING I DO BTW !! SO DONT COME @. ME.  WHAT IM SAYING IS... HOW DO I KNOW THAT THING HAS GONE THRU ISTIHALAH IS IT COMMEN SENSE OR MORE INTRICATE MY OPNION CURRENTLY IS THIS 

 

ALL products labelled to have gelatin in them are perbissible to eat due to the process of chemical change it undergoes THIS IS ALSO THE OPINION OF LATE AYATOLLAH KHUI (رضي الله عنه) 

 

alaamun alaykum, 
	
	The following question on gelatine and beef fat was kindly
answered by Moulana Rizvi.  He has provided an extensive discussion on
the question of gelatine, and Agha Khui's fatwa on this matter. 

Wasalaam,

Mustafa Rawji
Moderator, ABDG-A
___________________________________________________________________

INITIAL QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:

Question 1:

What is the ruling on Gelatin?  Can gelatin derived from cows and pigs be 
used?

Answer RE: Gelatin

On the queston of gelatine, I am quoting what I have written in January
1989 in the Shama newsletter produced in Vancouver, BC. I have just added
few comments to further clarify the issue. 

A. What is Gelatine?

Gelatine is an animal protein substance having gel-forming properties,
and is used primarily in food products. It is derived from collagen, a
protein found in animal skin and bone. This means that gelatine can be
derived from animal skin or animal bone. 

B. The Basic Rule of the Shari`ah:

The shari`ah rule about animal skin differs from that of animal bone:

SKIN: Animal skin or anything made from it can be considered tahir (pak)
only if the animal had been slaughtered Islamically. 

        Consequently, the gelatine derived from animal skin would be
considered najis unless we know that the animal had been slaughtered
Islamically. [Those present-day mujtahids who consider the animal
slaughtered unIslamically as tahir but haram -- their opinion does not
affect this answer that much because in their opinion, even if that
animal skin is tahir, it is still haram for consumption by human beings.]
        
BONE: Animal bone is considered tahir even if the animal had not been
slaughtered Islamically. Bones have been exempted from the rule of maytah
[i.e., an animal slaughtered unIslamically or died by itself]. However,
this does not include the bones of pigs and dogs. (See Minhaju
's-Salihiyn [vol. 1, p. 109 and vol. 2, p. 336] of the late Sayyid
al-Khu`i and al-`Urwatu 'l-Wuthqa, p. 20-21)

        Consequently, the gelatine derived from animal bones (other than
pigs and dogs) is tahir even if the animal was not slaughtered Islamically.

C. The Practical Problem:

        Having stated the above, we are faced with a practical problem:
The labels on food products do not specify whether the gelatine was
derived from animal skin or animal bones. So what should we do? Can we
assume that it has been derived from animal bones and consider it tahir
or not? 

        When I sent this question to the late Ayatullah al-Khu`i in December
1989, he replied: "Yes, it can be considered tahir." This answer is based on
the shari`ah principle that if an item can originate from two sources: one
pak and other najis -- in cases of ambiguity, you can assume that it is pak.

D. Accepted that it is tahir; but is it also halal?

        There are some people who would not be satisfied with the answer
of Ayatullah al-Khu`i and pose the following question: "Accepted that it
is tahir (pak); but is it halal for consumption as food item?" In my
question to Ayatullah al-Khu`i, I gave the example of cheese and sweets
with gelatine. It is quite obvious that I was asking the late marja`
about eating those items, and not just touching and feeling them!!! 
        
	However, to satisfy those who would like to see the words "halal and
religously eatable," I will quote a detailed answer of the Ayatullah
al-Khu`i to three questions sent to him from London.

        Q. Is gelatine derived from dog or pig tahir?

           Is gelatine derived from halal animals (like cows, goats, etc)
	   but not slaughtered according to shari`a tahir?

           Is gelatine derived from non-halal animals other than dog or pig,
	   tahir?

        A. "If a najis or haram matter from any category whatsoever changes
           into another than its original category, then it is considered 
           tahir as long as it did not come into contact with another 
           source of najasat. And the rule for gelatine in all the three 
           cases is same as what we have mentioned above.
      
	  "But in case the gelatine does not change, then:

           "If it is derived from parts of dogs and pigs or an animal which
           feeds on human excrement and has not been quarantined, then 
           it is haram and najis.

           "Similarly, [it is haram and najis] if it is derived from those
           parts of the maytah which are other than its bones.

           "But if the gelatine is derived from the bones of other than dogs
           and pigs, and has not become najis because of a secondary 
           najasat, then it is permissible to eat it and eat whatever has 
           been mixed and submerged into it."

        The last paragraph of Ayatullah al-Khu`i's answer fully supports
what I had written in Shama in Janaury 1989.


E. Issue of Istihalah in Gelatine:

        In the first part of Ayatullah Khu'i's answer, he says: "If a
najis or haram matter from ANY CATEGORY whatsoever changes into another
than its original category, then it is considered tahir as long as it did
not come into contact with another source of najasat." This is based on
the rule of istihalah -- chemical change which makes a najis item tahir
(mutahhirat). 

        To know if such a change occures in the final product known as
gelatine, we have to refer to the experts of food industry. After my
article was published, a brother from Minnesota, USA, was kind enough to
send for me a copy of an hand-out distributed by General Foods (the
manufacturer of Jell-o, the gelatin dessert). A paragraph in that
hand-out, in my opinion, clearly gives the expert's view about the
chemical change (istihalah) which takes place in manufacturing of
gelatine. While reading the below quotation, keep in mind that these
people do not have the slightest clue about the issue of istihalah in our
shari`ah! It says: 

        "It is interesting to note that during manufacture of gelatin,
chemical changes take place so that, in the final gelatin product, the
composition and identity of the original material is completely
eliminated. Because of this, gelatin is not considered a meat food
product by the United States government. The plant is under supervision
of the Federal Food and Drug Admininstration. If the government
considered gelatin a meat food product, the plant would operate under the
Meat Inspection Branch of the Department of Agriculture." (From General
Foods Corp. New York.)
       
If this is not istihalah, then what is it?

In final conclusion, all types of gelatine is tahir and halal.
        
For those interesting in reading my 1989 article on 'RENNET, PEPSIN &
GELATINE' may contact my office at: 

        Islamic Education & Information Centre,
        135 Sheppard Avenue East, North York,
        Ontario, Canada  M2N 3A6
        Tel: (416) 223-2162     Fax: (416) 223-2528

Question 2:

	A change in the state of a najis substance is deemed to make it
halal.  Can you elaborate on this?  What level of change is required?  Is
beef fat or other animal fat used in cookies/dougnuts/cakes/fries deemed
to have been transformed so as to make it halal? 

Answer:

	You are talking about istihalah which we have mentioned above in
answer to question no. 1. Istihalah means change or more precisely, a
chemical change which places the item under a list which is different from
its original grouping. The examples you have mentioned do not qualify for
istihalah; and are, therefore, still najis and haram. 

On details on the issue to taharat and najasat, see my "RITUAL & SPIRITUAL
PURITY" available from IEIC whose address and tel. # have been given under
answer no. 1.

Yours in Islam,

Sayyid M. Rizvi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:

Just for clarification, you stated in the last posting regarding gelatine
that "all types of gelatine is tahir and halal." Does this mean that when
we see gelatine in a list of ingredients where nothing else is
questionable, ethn we are to assume that the gelatine comes from an
animal other than a pig or a dog i.e. an animal that is tahir but has not
been slaughtered according to Shari`ah. 

Please answer this question as per Ayatullah Khui and Seestani.


ANSWER:

As mentioned under "C" in the original answer, you can assume that it is
tahir and halal. And if you read the last part about istihala "E", then all
kinds of gelatine becomes tahir and halal.

Yours in Islam,

Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

In the first part of Ayatullah Khu'i's answer, he says: "If a najis or haram matter from ANY CATEGORY whatsoever changes into another than its original category, then it is considered tahir as long as it did not come into contact with another source of najasat." This is based on the rule of istihalah -- chemical change which makes a najis item tahir (mutahhirat).

this is proof number 1 of my view 

 

3 minutes ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

ust for clarification, you stated in the last posting regarding gelatine that "all types of gelatine is tahir and halal." Does this mean that when we see gelatine in a list of ingredients where nothing else is questionable, ethn we are to assume that the gelatine comes from an animal other than a pig or a dog i.e. an animal that is tahir but has not been slaughtered according to Shari`ah. Please answer this question as per Ayatullah Khui and Seestani. ANSWER: As mentioned under "C" in the original answer, you can assume that it is tahir and halal. And if you read the last part about istihala "E", then all kinds of gelatine becomes tahir and halal. Yours in Islam, Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi

proof 2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

OK BIG UPDATE LAAAADSS FOUND THIS 

 

 

How to make gelatin:

Use part of an animal that has collagen in it

Then boil it to force a hydrolysis chemical reaction. This is an irreversible chemical reaction that makes the difference between ex1 sucrose ==> fructose + glucose and ex2 sufuric acid + water ==> hydronium + bisulfate.

This creates gelatin, a chemically different substance from the substance derived from the animal.

 

this is CLEARLY CHEMICAL CHANGE SO ITS HALAL TO EAT MARSHMELLOWS IN THE WEST AND AYATOLLAH KHUI AGREES! ALLAH BLES HIS SOUL! WE CAN FINALLY EAT LUCKY CHARMS :NH::furious:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
9 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

this is CLEARLY CHEMICAL CHANGE SO ITS HALAL TO EAT MARSHMELLOWS IN THE WEST AND AYATOLLAH KHUI AGREES! ALLAH BLES HIS SOUL! WE CAN FINALLY EAT

Salam you are trying to put your nonsense word in mouth of late Ayatollah Khui (رضي الله عنه) while your puzzle of word has been about talking about gelatin not Marshmallows which famous  Marshmallows brands have been made from "pork gelatin " so therefore all of them are Haram which playing with words in your world puzzle about Istihala doesn't make it Halal. 

Tips to Find Halal Marshmallows

Most famous marshmallows brands in the US and Western countries are made with pork gelatin, making this confectionery unsuitable for Muslims. For example, Jet-puffed KraftCampfire, and Kroger.

Even when the packaging says ‘gelatin,’ it is unknown whether it is pork or beef and if the cow is slaughtered properly.

Unfortunately, kosher brands in North America are not always a compatible substitute for halal marshmallows due to the absence of a universal standard for ‘kosher gelatin.’ Specific kosher certifications (for example, Ko Kosher) allow the use of pig-derived gelatin. (source)

We have a couple of simple tips for finding halal and permissible marshmallows for you and your family.

  1. Find Halal-labeled products or shop at a reputable Halal store. 
  2. Avoid picking up a kosher product, as it’s not always pork-free. As an alternative, find a vegan one.

https://halalguidance.com/are-marshmallows-halal/#:~:text=Most famous marshmallows brands in the US and,beef and if the cow is slaughtered properly.

or make homemade Marshmallows from Halal ingredients .

https://halalinislam.com/is-marshmallows-halal-in-the-united-states/

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Definition of Istihala in Jurisprudence and its Examples

In jurisprudence, istihala means changing the nature of an intrinsically najis object or something that has become najis as a result of contact with a najis object. For example, when wood turns into ashes or smoke, or the corpse of an animal or human turns into dust, it is said that istihala has occurred.[1]

Other examples of Istihala mentioned in the books of jurisprudence are: turning feces into soil, turning urine or najis liquid into steam, turning sperm into an animal, turning najis food into a part of the body of a halal meat animal.[2]

Changing the characteristics of something or dispersing the parts of something is not considered as istihala; for example, turning wheat into flour or bread or turning milk into cheese.[3]

Difference between Istihala and Inqilab

Main article: Inqilab (fiqh)

Inqilab, in jurisprudence, means that wine turns into vinegar.[6] There is a difference of opinion among jurists regarding the similarity of istihala and inqilab. Some jurists have considered inqilab as a form of istihala and have also discussed inqilab in the discussion of istihala,[7] but another group have discussed inqilab as a separate topic.[8]

According to Sayyid Abu al-Qasim Khoei (b. 1317/1899 - d. 1413/1992), inqilab is a type of istihala, because in inqilab, in the view of common people, the nature of wine changes.[9]

 

Rulings of Istihala

Some of the rulings of istihala, based on the books of practical rulings, are as follows:

  • If a intrinsically najis object or something that has become najis, changes in such a way that it turns into a pure object, it is considered as pure.
  • A piece of najis wood that is burned and turned to ashes is pure.
  • If a dog falls into a salt marsh and turns into salt, it will be pure.
  • If najis wheat is floured or they baked with it, it will not be pure.
  • A clay jar and the like made of najis clay are najis.
  • A najis object that is not known whether it has undergone istihala or not is najis.[10]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Istihala

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
13 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Definition of Istihala in Jurisprudence and its Examples

In jurisprudence, istihala means changing the nature of an intrinsically najis object or something that has become najis as a result of contact with a najis object. For example, when wood turns into ashes or smoke, or the corpse of an animal or human turns into dust, it is said that istihala has occurred.[1]

Other examples of Istihala mentioned in the books of jurisprudence are: turning feces into soil, turning urine or najis liquid into steam, turning sperm into an animal, turning najis food into a part of the body of a halal meat animal.[2]

Changing the characteristics of something or dispersing the parts of something is not considered as istihala; for example, turning wheat into flour or bread or turning milk into cheese.[3]

Difference between Istihala and Inqilab

Main article: Inqilab (fiqh)

Inqilab, in jurisprudence, means that wine turns into vinegar.[6] There is a difference of opinion among jurists regarding the similarity of istihala and inqilab. Some jurists have considered inqilab as a form of istihala and have also discussed inqilab in the discussion of istihala,[7] but another group have discussed inqilab as a separate topic.[8]

According to Sayyid Abu al-Qasim Khoei (b. 1317/1899 - d. 1413/1992), inqilab is a type of istihala, because in inqilab, in the view of common people, the nature of wine changes.[9]

 

Rulings of Istihala

Some of the rulings of istihala, based on the books of practical rulings, are as follows:

  • If a intrinsically najis object or something that has become najis, changes in such a way that it turns into a pure object, it is considered as pure.
  • A piece of najis wood that is burned and turned to ashes is pure.
  • If a dog falls into a salt marsh and turns into salt, it will be pure.
  • If najis wheat is floured or they baked with it, it will not be pure.
  • A clay jar and the like made of najis clay are najis.
  • A najis object that is not known whether it has undergone istihala or not is najis.[10]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Istihala

 

akh: 

"15. Gelatine: Derived from vegetable or animal source. If it is from vegetable source, there is no problem. But if it is from animal that was not slaughtered Islamically, it is halãl in view of the late Grand Ayatullãh as-Sayyid al-Khû’í based on the chemical change (istahãlah) that it goes through."

AND 

any substance which has gone through istihala is pure and halal including intrinsically najis things, wine for example, will ALWAYS be haram to consume right? Just like swine will ALWAYS be halal to consume. when wine is put through istihala the end product is halal! same applies for ANY and ALL gelatin

 

ONLY ONE CONDITION FOR IT TO BE HALAL EXISTS AND THAT IS:

 

ISTIHALAHHH

 

also look at the opinon of another famous scholar fadlullah (رضي الله عنه)

"

q: is it permissible to eat gelatin (animal source) from a non-muslim country?

A: it is permissible and its purity is shown by the fact that Istihala (chemical change) takes place in its manufacture as confirmed by the experts in the field. "

"Gelatin is an irreversibly hydrolyzed form of collagen, wherein the hydrolysis reduces protein fibrils into smaller peptides" 

 

bruddeh the proof is insurmoutable mate, with all due respect it seems ur just saying everything stated is completley false and apprently don't matter? 

 

no offense akhi :respect: 

 

"Question: What is your ruling on having foods that contain gelatin?

Answer: It is permissible to eat gelatin if one doubts whether it has been extracted from an animal or vegetable. But, if it is known that it was derived from an animal, then it is not permissible to eat without ascertaining that the animal was slaughtered according to sharí‘a. This prohibition applies, as a matter of obligatory precaution, even if it was extracted from animal bones.
Of course, if a chemical change occurs in the original ingredients during the process of manufacturing the gelatin, there is no problem at all in eating it. Similarly, even if one has doubt whether the animal was slaughtered Islamically or not, still there is no problem in adding the gelatin [made from that animal] to the food in such a minute amount that it is completely absorbed in it."

 

now ayatollahs cant sit and determine scientific reactions if they have taken place or not that isnt their job, its the mukalifs ..

 

and as mentioned ISTIHALA DOES TAKE PLACE!

 

"

\"Use part of an animal that has collagen in it

Then boil it to force a hydrolysis chemical reaction. This is an irreversible chemical reaction that makes the difference between ex1 sucrose ==> fructose + glucose and ex2 sufuric acid + water ==> hydronium + bisulfate.

This creates gelatin, a chemically different substance from the substance derived from the animal."

 

SUMMARY: 

1) ISTIHALA MUST TAKE PLACE FOR IT TO BE HALAL 

2) IF IT TAKES PLACE IT IS HALAL REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT WAS BEFORE ISTIHALAH

3) ISTIHALAH DOES TAKE PLACE 

4) THUS, it is halal!!! 

 

not convincing u to eat gelatine akhi, but to make a permissible thing imperssible even when it is confirmed to be permisible through istihalah is also not okay

I respect ur opinions tho!  Salaam 

 

Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to bestow His Grace on you that you may be grateful.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

no offense akhi :respect: 

 

"Question: What is your ruling on having foods that contain gelatin?

Answer: It is permissible to eat gelatin if one doubts whether it has been extracted from an animal or vegetable. But, if it is known that it was derived from an animal, then it is not permissible to eat without ascertaining that the animal was slaughtered according to sharí‘a. This prohibition applies, as a matter of obligatory precaution, even if it was extracted from animal bones.
Of course, if a chemical change occurs in the original ingredients during the process of manufacturing the gelatin, there is no problem at all in eating it. Similarly, even if one has doubt whether the animal was slaughtered Islamically or not, still there is no problem in adding the gelatin [made from that animal] to the food in such a minute amount that it is completely absorbed in it."

Salam you have responded to yourself  which refutes you point  because in your mentioned  process gelatin  just has separated from other parts of body of animal without any change in nature of it  .

 

Quote

it is not permissible to eat without ascertaining that the animal was slaughtered according to sharí‘a. This prohibition applies, as a matter of obligatory precaution, even if it was extracted from animal bones.

you are trying to show Istihala in making Gelatin while there is no Istihala has happened also it has been taken from non Halal source .

Quote

Changing the characteristics of something or dispersing the parts of something is not considered as istihala; for example, turning wheat into flour or bread or turning milk into cheese.[3]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Istihala

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
8 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

discussion complete :)

Don't hide your self  behind salad of words & putting word in mouth of any revered marja just in order to justify your false desires. :censored:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

"

To know if such a change occurs in the final product known as Gelatin, we have to refer to the experts of food industry. After my article was published, a brother from Minnesota, USA, was kind enough to send for me a copy of an hand-out distributed by General Foods (the manufacturer of Jell-o, the gelatin dessert). A paragraph in that hand-out, in my opinion, clearly gives the expert's view about the chemical change (istihalah) which takes place in manufacturing of gelatin. While reading the below quotation, keep in mind that these people do not have the slightest clue about the issue of istihalah in our shari`ah! It says:

"It is interesting to note that during manufacture of gelatin, chemical changes take place so that, in the final gelatin product, the composition and identity of the original material is completely eliminated.  Because of this, gelatin is not considered a meat food product by the United States government. The plant is under supervision of the Federal Food and Drug Administration. If the government considered gelatin a meat food product, the plant would operate under the Meat Inspection Branch of the Department of Agriculture." (From General Foods Corp. New York.)

If this is not istihalah, then what is it? In final conclusion, all types of Gelatin is tahir and halal" 

 

btw everything it says above is from Sayyid Rizvi himself. NOTHING inside the quote marks is mine wallah, and allah is my witness 

 

http://www.islamic-laws.com/gelatinandIstehlak.htm

 

@The_Mighty_Arab @Journey of Truth GET IN HERE YO! :furious:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

allhamdullilah iam satisfied with what sayyed rizwi has said and his research conducted thoughrouly, so imma be eating some S'MORES and LUCKY CHARMS lol @The_Mighty_Arab @Journey of Truth ahsant 

 

@Ashvazdanghe I respect u brother , there are two camps in this issue, both among laymen AND scholars, among many fall in the second camp though if u dont i accept that and respect u none the less may allah bless u and prolong ur life ameen

just because we disagree on fiqh does not mean i am better person than u or ur better person than me. 

 

one ummah

one God 

One Nabi (SAWA) 

YA ALI!! (عليه السلام) 

 

Salaam alaikum and Khuda hafiz! / goodbye!!! 

(p.s im not qutting shiachat jus saying goodbye so i can move on and make a new thread about a new topic which interests me) 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...