New trend amongst younger Shia to challenge long held beliefs

[Eddie Mecca]

3 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

It's like they're intentionally trying to go after what is sacred. I know they're not but what a terrible trick of the devil to fall into.

Should we believe like Catholics who blindly follow the pope?...or should Shīʿi Muslims be more like forensic investigators who carefully and meticulously follow the path that the evidence leads them to without reservation? I think we should behave more like forensic investigators and archeologists who follow proof...you're right...the devil is lurking behind every corner trying to lead us astray...the secularists, the postmodernists, the Zionists, the Saudis, the Hindutva Movement, the evangelicals, CIA, MI-6 etc. are all attempting to misdirect Muslims...but the well-read Muslim is a lot less likely to be fooled...the passionate, goodhearted blind follower is more likely to suffer from inner conflict or have an existential crisis somewhere down the line because he (she) took the lazy route and didn't do his (her) due diligence...in my experience it's always the mindless traditionalist who falls victim to atheism, assimilation etc....the ones who come through the door emotionally...usually exist the door emotionally...Qurʾān admonishes human beings for not using their mind, intellect and reason and strongly discourages robotically mimicking the masses... Ali (peace be upon him) said, “Verily, truth and falsehood are not known by the statures of men. Know the truth and you will recognize its people. Know falsehood and you will recognize the one who brings it.” 

3 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

It's like me telling you your mom isn't actually your mom. I mean how would you know for sure? You could have been adopted. Yeah you look like her but maybe she's actually your aunt. Did you get a DNA test? You can't definitively tell me she's your mom unless you provide a DNA test right now.

I must entertain the notion and take into consideration that my mom may not be my mom...We don't challenge the obvious until the so-called 'obvious', 'evident' etc. is called into question and challenged...so Columbus arrived in 1492...not 1592, not 1692, not 1992...the indigenous natives tell us that he arrived in 1492 and the Europeans site the exact same year (i.e. 1492)...so there's universal historical consensus on the matter...if contrary evidence by a legitimate source arises in the future and contradicts the time-honored stance then we proceed further and investigate...we're not scared of truth and we advance fearlessly...we place ourselves in an objective position to analyze the contrasting proof once it surfaces...we're brave and we must judge the new proofs fairly and without bias or favoritism 

[Sabrejet]

There's another concerning trend, and IMO it's much more dangerous than believing that a shrine is a particular person's shrine or something along those lines.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)), "forgave" Aisha, so shias should keep their mouths shut against her.

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) didn't raise arms against Abu Bakr, Umar, or Uthman, so that must mean that they are not as bad as the Rafidhi's make them out to be, and our sunni brothers are right, and we should repent, and keep our shia brothers from praying for the removal of mercy from these figures, otherwise they may be in trouble in the Hereafter.

These teachings are actually being promoted from the pulpits of so-called scholars on a massive scale, and our youth is being misled.

Edited May 26 by Sabrejet

[guest 2025]

9 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Should we believe like Catholics who blindly follow the pope?...or should Shīʿi Muslims be more like forensic investigators who carefully and meticulously follow the path that the evidence leads them to without reservation? I think we should behave more like forensic investigators and archeologists who follow proof...you're right...the devil is lurking behind every corner trying to lead us astray...the secularists, the postmodernists, the Zionists, the Saudis, the Hindutva Movement, the evangelicals, CIA, MI-6 etc. are all attempting to misdirect Muslims...but the well-read Muslim is a lot less likely to be fooled...the passionate, goodhearted blind follower is more likely to suffer from inner conflict or have an existential crisis somewhere down the line because he (she) took the lazy route and didn't do his (her) due diligence...in my experience it's always the mindless traditionalist who falls victim to atheism, assimilation etc....the ones who come through the door emotionally...usually exist the door emotionally...Qurʾān admonishes human beings for not using their mind, intellect and reason and strongly discourages robotically mimicking the masses... Ali (peace be upon him) said, “Verily, truth and falsehood are not known by the statures of men. Know the truth and you will recognize its people. Know falsehood and you will recognize the one who brings it.” 

I must entertain the notion and take into consideration that my mom may not be my mom...We don't challenge the obvious until the so-called 'obvious', 'evident' etc. is called into question and challenged...so Columbus arrived in 1492...not 1592, not 1692, not 1992...the indigenous natives tell us that he arrived in 1492 and the Europeans site the exact same year (i.e. 1492)...so there's universal historical consensus on the matter...if contrary evidence by a legitimate source arises in the future and contradicts the time-honored stance then we proceed further and investigate...we're not scared of truth and we advance fearlessly...we place ourselves in an objective position to analyze the contrasting proof once it surfaces...we're brave and we must judge the new proofs fairly and without bias or favoritism 

Fair enough and well said

[Qa'im]

17 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

If there were other alleged daughters or adopted daughters ( none survived ) as the other narrative goes-it has political / religious bases- namely the marriage of one or two to a certain individual who was a high profile figure in the opponents view, even with all his acknowledged shortcomings-  this marriage narrative is positive- for political/religious  reasons. So, they propagate it. 

In any event. As far as me as a person is concerned. 

1) Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny) had one Biological Daughter.(The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa))

2) There is only one Sayyidat Nisa' al-Alamin (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

3) There is only one at the time of the revelation of the Verse of Purification (Verse 33:33 ). (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

4) There is only one who is the central figure in the Hadith Al- Kissa ( The Hadith of the Cloak).(The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

5) There is only one who is part of the Event of al-Mubahala ( Verse 3:61) , (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

6) The only one who is referred in Surrah al-Kawthar. (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

7) The only one referred as the part of me by Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny), is (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

8) The only one who is a infallible role model to the women of the ummah , (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

9) The one married to Maula Ali(عليه السلام), (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

10) The one who is the source of the infallible Imams(عليه السلام), (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

I can go on as a layman but I will stop here due to my lack of knowledge and can't do justice to this topic.

However, the one who is the source of All the Sadaats ( The Sayyids / Sayyeds / Syeds) The progeny of Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny), there are millions of them today As per the Promise in Surah Kawthar. 

So, the question is, why the quest? 

Almost everything here is correct.

As for Surat al-Kawthar, we don't have a single hadith anywhere (strong or weak) that says that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is al-Kawthar. On the contrary, Shi`a tafasir consistently say that al-Kawthar is a special river in Paradise. The first person that I know of that alluded to al-Kawthar being connected to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) was Sunni scholar Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (d. 1210 AD), who offers this possibility alongside 15 possible meanings to al-Kawthar. One can believe this if they want, but it is not the strongest interpretation, nor does it come from Shiism.

[Guest Guest.]

You can read the Context of the Revelation, and the Last Verse . Plus the evidence that supports the meaning ( meaning the millions of them in the world).  There are Apparent and Hidden meanings . 

 

إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ {1}

[Shakir 108:1] Surely We have given you Kausar,
[Pickthal 108:1] Lo! We have given thee Abundance;
[Yusufali 108:1] To thee have We granted the Fount (of Abundance).

فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ {2}

[Shakir 108:2] Therefore pray to your Lord and make a sacrifice.
[Pickthal 108:2] So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice.
[Yusufali 108:2] Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.

إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الْأَبْتَرُ {3}

[Shakir 108:3] Surely your enemy is the one who shall be without posterity.
[Pickthal 108:3] Lo! it is thy insulter (and not thou) who is without posterity.
[Yusufali 108:3] For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off (from Future Hope).

You can read the Context of the Revelation, and the Last Verse . Plus the evidence that supports the meaning ( meaning the millions of them in the world). 

"

Al-Kawthar (Arabic: کوثر, lit. great good^[1]) is a Qur'anic word and one of the epithets of Lady Fatimah (a)^[2]. It is a cognate of the Arabic word "kathīr" (کثیر), and has once appeared in the Qur'an 108: 1 (Sura al-Kawthar)^[3].

There is controversy among the scholars of the Qur'anic exegesis over what is meant by "al-kawthar"^[4]; it is taken to refer to a river or a stream in Heaven, a lot of good, prophecy, the Holy Scripture, the Qur'an, knowledge and wisdom, Kawthar Pond, Shafa'a, and the many companions, followers, and progeny granted by God to the Prophet (s).^[5]

According to Fadl b. Hasan al-Tabrisi in Majma' al-bayan, all these probabilities could be right; because the word "kawthar" includes great good in this world as well as hereafter that encompasses all the abovementioned interpretations^[6]. Fakhr al-Razi has considered the interpretation of kawthar to a river or a stream in Heaven as mashhur and mustadif^[7].

For Shiite scholars of Qur'anic exegesis, "al-kawthar" refers to Lady Fatima al-Zahra (a), since al-'As b. Wa'il called Prophet Muhammad (s) "abtar", that is, a person without a progeny and offspring (since he had no sons). On this occasion, God revealed the verse in response to al-'As b. Wa'il, by saying that He will give the Prophet (s) many children through his daughter, Lady Fatima al-Zahra (a). Al-Kawthar is one of the titles of Lady Fatima (a).^[8]

[Qa'im]

You can feel free to say that you have the hidden meaning, and that meaning may very well be true. But until it is said by an Imam of Ahlul Bayt, then it is just an opinion. Just like how some sahaba had their own opinions, and just like how some Sunni mufasirin like Razi had their views.

It’s strange to me that the 12 Imams and their Shia, and a thousand years of Shia scholarship would miss something like this, yet it became completely sacrosanct in our community.

[Guest Guest]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

You can feel free to say that you have the hidden meaning, and that meaning may very well be true. But until it is said by an Imam of Ahlul Bayt, then it is just an opinion. Just like how some sahaba had their own opinions, and just like how some Sunni mufasirin like Razi had their views.

It’s strange to me that the 12 Imams and their Shia, and a thousand years of Shia scholarship would miss something like this, yet it became completely sacrosanct in our community.

 

It has bases maybe not the type of investigation you do, I would ponder and carefully review the Context of the Revelation and the last Verse. The meaning of the word may be many, Consider the meaning in light of the Context and the Last verse. 

Verily We have given thee the Kawthar (Abundance). So pray thou unto thy Lord! And offer sacrifice. Verily, thy enemy shall be the one cut off (in his progeny).' (Qur'an 108:1-3)

 

1) 

Quote

Al-Kawthar

According to some Qur'an commentaries (Tafsir), when the Quraysh (tribe) said that the Prophet (sawa) had no offspring, the chapter of al-Kawthar was revealed:

'Verily We have given thee the Kawthar (Abundance). So pray thou unto thy Lord! And offer sacrifice. Verily, thy enemy shall be the one cut off (in his progeny).' (Qur'an 108:1-3)

'We have given you al-Kawthar' means we have given you the abundant good, which shall last throughout your life and after it; therefore, turn your face unto your Lord in prayer, as mention of your name shall never end and your offspring shall never perish; it is those standing against you who are more deserving of this description.

This revelation was given against the backdrop of the pronouncements by some of the Quraysh's most scurrilous men - such as al-'As bin Wa'il, Abu Jahl, 'Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ayt and Ka'b bin al-Ashraf - that the Prophet (sawa) was cut off from male children, after the death of his son al-Qasim. Hence, it is clear that the abundant good - al-Kawthar - was pointing to the abundant offspring which the Prophet (sawa) would have through his daughter Fatimah (عليه السلام), and that this was a reply to those people and their effort to weaken the Prophet's spirits. Supporting our interpretation, al-Tabataba'i, in al-Mizan commentary, said: 'Without that, the words 'Verily, thy enemy shall be the one cut off' would be useless.'

https://www.al-islam.org/fatimah-al-masumah-role-model-men-and-women-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-fadlallah/chapter-1-her-life#al-kawthar

2

Quote

Points Of Interest

1. Lady Fatima And Al-Kawthar

It was said earlier that ‘al-Kawthar’ has a vast, inclusive meaning which is ‘goodness in abundance’ and the examples are many.

A large number of scholars of the Shia school believe that one of the most clear examples of this word is the auspicious existence of Fatima Zahra, because the occasion of the revelation of the verse indicates that the enemies accused the Noble Prophet of being without offspring to which the Qur’an replied:

Surely (Muhammad) We have given you abundance of good (al-Kawthar). (108:1).

From this verse we understand that this ‘abundance of good’ is that very Lady Fatima Zahra’.

In addition, not only is it the physical and biological offspring of the Prophet which will increase, rather it is these abundant number of offspring scattered which continue his religion and are responsible for the preservation of all of the values of Islam and continue to convey it to the future generations!

This is not only limited to the infallible Imams of the Ahlul Bayt who have a literal number that we can enumerate (12), rather it is the thousands and thousands of children of Fatima which have spread around the entire world from whom so many great scholars, scientists, writers, exegetists, jurists, narrators of the Prophet’s sayings and leaders have come from – individuals who have left outstanding works and unmatched fame in this world, and have protected Islam with their selfless giving (of themselves and their efforts) and their hard work and devotions.

Here, we encounter a very interesting discussion from Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi who along with other commentators on ‘al-Kawthar’, says:

The third statement of the meaning of this chapter is that it was revealed to reject those who criticized the Noble Prophet for his lack of progeny.

Therefore the meaning of this chapter is that Allah will give him a generation which will remain throughout all of the ages.

Considering the fact that how many members of the Ahlul Bayt have been martyred, we still see that the world is replete with them, whereas the Umayyads (who were the enemies of Islam) there remains no mentionable figure in the world.

Then, behold and see how many of the great men of leadership such as al-Baqir, as-Sadiq, al-Ridha, and Nafs al-Zakiyyah 9, etc… are found among them (the household)!”10

https://www.al-islam.org/fatima-zahra-noble-quran-naser-makarem-shirazi/surah-al-kawthar-abundant-good

3)

Quote

Explanation: Lady Hazrat Fatimah and Kawthar

It was said earlier that 'Kawthar' has a vast inclusive meaning which is 'goodness in abundance' and the examples are many.

A large number of scholars of the Shi'ah school believe that one of the most clear examples of that word is the auspicious existence of Lady Fatimah Zahra (عليه السلام), because the occasion of the revelation of the verse says that they accused the holy Prophet (S) of being without offspring, but the Qur'an says:

"Surely (O Muhammad) We have given you abundance of good (Kawthar)”.

From this meaning we understand that this 'abundance of good' is the very Lady Fatimah Zahra (عليه السلام) of whom the descendants of the Prophet (S) increased abundantly and thousands and thousands of them scattered in the world preaching his religion and preserving it.

It is a fact that none can correctly count the number of descendants of Hazrat Ali and Fatimah (عليه السلام) who are recognized as the descendants of the holy Prophet (S), among whom so many great scholars, scientists, writers, commentators, jurisprudents, traditionists and splendid leaders left some outstanding works and unmatched fame in this world, and tried to protect Islam with their donations and devotions.

Here, we encounter a very interesting discussion from Fakhr-i-Razi who, along with other commentaries on 'Kawthar', says:

“The third statement is that this Surah has been revealed to reject those who criticized the holy Prophet (S) for his lack of progeny, therefore, the meaning of the Surah is that Allah shall give him a generation which will remain stable through all ages.

And consider this, that although a number of Ahlul-Bait have been martyred, the world is replete with them, where as from the Ummayads (who were the enemies of Islam) there remains no mentionable figure in the world. Then, behold and see how many of the great men of leadership such as Baqir, Sadiq, Rida, and Nafs-i-Zakiyyah7 are found among them, (the household).”8

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-20/surah-kawthar-chapter-108

[Abu_Zahra]

On 5/26/2024 at 8:56 AM, Sabrejet said:

These teachings are actually being promoted from the pulpits of so-called scholars on a massive scale, and our youth is being misled

Let both sides bring their evidence and it will become clear which side is misled. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/26/2024 at 5:27 PM, Qa'im said:

It’s strange to me that the 12 Imams and their Shia, and a thousand years of Shia scholarship would miss something like this, yet it became completely sacrosanct in our community.

Fatima Zahra’ In The Noble Qur’an

Naser Makarem Shirazi

Quote

Even the Sunni scholar, Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi has narrated fifteen different narrations on the meaning of ‘al-Kawthar’, however most of them are merely statements of the clear examples of this broad concept, because as was mentioned before, ‘al-Kawthar’ means ‘goodness and blessings in abundance’, and we know that Allah the Grand, granted the Noble Prophet so many blessings such that each of the ones mentioned above is but one clear example of them.

 

Here, we encounter a very interesting discussion from Fakhr ad-Din al-Razi who along with other commentators on ‘al-Kawthar’, says:

The third statement of the meaning of this chapter is that it was revealed to reject those who criticized the Noble Prophet for his lack of progeny.

Therefore the meaning of this chapter is that Allah will give him a generation which will remain throughout all of the ages.

https://www.al-islam.org/fatima-zahra-noble-quran-naser-makarem-shirazi/surah-al-kawthar-abundant-good

House of Sorrows, The life of Sayyidah Fatimah al-Zahra and her grief

Shaykh 'Abbas Qummi

https://www.al-islam.org/house-sorrows-life-sayyidah-fatimah-al-zahra-and-her-grief-shaykh-abbas-qummi/chapter-1-birth

Al-Kawthar fi ahwal Fatima (book)

Quote

Contents

The book is a collection of hadiths in seven volumes concerning the biography and virtues of Fatima al-Zahra' (a) based on evidence from the Qur'an and hadiths.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-Kawthar_fi_ahwal_Fatima_(book)

Sayyida Fatima (peace be upon her)

https://erfan.ir/english/82258.html

Al Kawthar In The Holy Quran Means Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام)

https://shiastudies.com/en/250/al-kawthar-in-the-holy-quran-means-fatima-zahra-a-s/

An edition of al-Kawthar fi ahwal Fatimah bint al-Nabi al-athar

al-Kawthar fi ahwal Fatimah bint al-Nabi al-athar

al-Tabah 1 edition

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL13106763M/al-Kawthar_fi_ahwal_Fatimah_bint_al-Nabi_al-athar

 

Download link in Arabic language

https://www.shiabooks.net/library.php?id=10202

 

https://en.shafaqna.com/133813/al-kawthar-sayeda-fatimah-al-zahra-a-s/

 

from Sunni viewpoint

The Virtues of Sayyidah Fatimah (sa)

Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri

https://www.al-islam.org/virtues-sayyidah-fatimah-sa-muhammad-tahir-ul-qadri

Edited May 30 by Hameedeh
Off-topic comment removed.

[Qa'im]

Still waiting for any hadith, in any book, that says that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is al-Kawthar. Again, I'm not against the possibility, as the Quran can have multiple layers of meaning. But it is an opinion until there is binding proof.

Even Tabarsi's tafsir (12th century) lists many opinions, the 6th one is وقيل: هو كثرة النسل والذرية، وقد ظهرت الكثرة في نسله من ولد فاطمة (ع)، حتى لا يحصى عددهم، واتصل إلى يوم القيامة مددهم - "It is said" (by who? he does not mention) "that [al-Kawthar] is the abundance of progeny and descendants, and that abundance has appeared through the loins of Fatima, to the point where we do not know their number, and they stretch until the Day of Resurrection." This is one of many opinions he provides, but this one he does not provide a source for. And while it mentions Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), this is not exactly saying that she is al-Kawthar - it is saying that the abundant number of descendants is al-Kawthar. Close, but not exactly the same thing.

If you keep reading to the end of this section, Tabarsi concludes فقد أعطاه الله، سبحانه وتعالى، الخير الكثير في الدنيا، ووعده الخير الكثير في الآخرة، وجميع هذه الأقوال تفصيل للجملة التي هي الخير الكثير في الدارين. "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave him much goodness in this world, and He promised him much goodness in the Hereafter. All of these opinions are an elaboration that it (al-Kawthar) is much goodness in the two abodes (this world and the hereafter)."

Tadabbur of the Quran is great, but in this example, we've elevated an opinion into an enshrined tafsir that is recited all the time in our community, when there is no proof that the Ahl al-Bayt did this themselves. That's a problem.

[Zainuu]

On 5/5/2024 at 9:23 AM, Qa'im said:

Like the grave of Amir al-Mu’mineen, the imams made the grave of Sayyida Fatima known. The fact that it was a secret burial supports the idea that the funeral and burial took place at her home. If she were buried outdoors, people would’ve noticed, especially since the authorities (including `Umar) were known to watch at night. Medina was not a big city at the time - it was about the size of today's Masjid al-Nabawi complex.

So this is sufficient evidence for me. Yes she was buried in secret, but no we have a good idea of where she was laid to rest.

I remember once when my aunt narrated an incident when she went to hajj and ziyarah. When she was in Masjid un nabawi, a caravan of Iranian women started marching towards baqi. Saudis authorities are not able to stop Iranians, so they always visit Jannat ul baqi (unlike others). She thought of getting in that group but was unable to follow as there was a lot of crowd, so she got left behind. She started crying at that moment and saying 'Ya Fatima tuz Zehra'. Suddenly a lady came from behind, held her hand and kept it on a place and indicated that this is what she's looking for (the real grave).

So, honestly I have seen people in India and Pakistan talking about grave of Sayyida in Jannat ul Baqi but I haven't heard any great scholar saying the same.

[Zainuu]

20 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Still waiting for any hadith, in any book, that says that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is al-Kawthar. Again, I'm not against the possibility, as the Quran can have multiple layers of meaning. But it is an opinion until there is binding proof.

Even Tabarsi's tafsir (12th century) lists many opinions, the 6th one is وقيل: هو كثرة النسل والذرية، وقد ظهرت الكثرة في نسله من ولد فاطمة (ع)، حتى لا يحصى عددهم، واتصل إلى يوم القيامة مددهم - "It is said" (by who? he does not mention) "that [al-Kawthar] is the abundance of progeny and descendants, and that abundance has appeared through the loins of Fatima, to the point where we do not know their number, and they stretch until the Day of Resurrection." This is one of many opinions he provides, but this one he does not provide a source for. And while it mentions Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), this is not exactly saying that she is al-Kawthar - it is saying that the abundant number of descendants is al-Kawthar. Close, but not exactly the same thing.

If you keep reading to the end of this section, Tabarsi concludes فقد أعطاه الله، سبحانه وتعالى، الخير الكثير في الدنيا، ووعده الخير الكثير في الآخرة، وجميع هذه الأقوال تفصيل للجملة التي هي الخير الكثير في الدارين. "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave him much goodness in this world, and He promised him much goodness in the Hereafter. All of these opinions are an elaboration that it (al-Kawthar) is much goodness in the two abodes (this world and the hereafter)."

Tadabbur of the Quran is great, but in this example, we've elevated an opinion into an enshrined tafsir that is recited all the time in our community, when there is no proof that the Ahl al-Bayt did this themselves. That's a problem.

To the point that if a scholar starts doing what you are doing here, he will be called a muqassir and will be abused and attacked from all sides and will face greater challenges to the point that he may loose any significance in the community.

[Zainuu]

On 5/6/2024 at 6:57 AM, Qa'im said:

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Yes. It is recited in almost every house and I for certain know that it has a broken chain. But the matn Or the content itself is not harmful or deviating from the true belief and this is the reason it continues.

[Zainuu]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:31 AM, root said:

fruitful topic turned into a fruitless discussion very fast. It's a shame really

It always happens on this forum and this is the reason I try to stay away most of the times.

[Zainuu]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:29 AM, ShiaMan14 said:

Anyone who brings up the number of daughters of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a discussion has only 1 purpose in mind - somehow reduce the status of Fatima (عليه السلام) or to elevate the alleged husbands of these daughters. Therein lies the fitna

I need your answer on nahj ul balagha sermon 164 where Maala Ali (عليه السلام) actually mentions the relationship of Uthman ibn Afwan with the prophet (S):

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-164-people-are-behind-me

 

Brother, the entire point is that shia community or in general humanity is slowly becoming repulsive about reading books and doing hard work. It's sad. But habits of hard work and detailed reading should not escape from shias (specially) as it is the path of Imam Ali (عليه السلام).

[Nader Zaveri]

On 4/29/2024 at 4:54 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

really where is @Nader Zaveri  

I am here. Always been here and I'm an easy person to get a hold of either here, Whatsapp, discord, reddit, or even LinkedIn. 

 

 

@Qa'im - Long time. You have the sabr of Ayyoub (عليه السلام).

[Abu_Zahra]

8 hours ago, Nader Zaveri said:

I am here. Always been here and I'm an easy person to get a hold of either here, Whatsapp, discord, reddit, or even LinkedIn. 

 

 

@Qa'im - Long time. You have the sabr of Ayyoub (عليه السلام).

Wa alaikum as salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh 

The legend returns. Welcome back

[ShiaMan14]

On 5/3/2024 at 9:47 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

No I wouldn't say that the only reason one would bring this up is for fitnah. There are sincere scholars who genuinely bring it up because there is a misconception in some circles that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) only had one daughter, that this is a standard Shi'i belief and that any  other claim is somehow an attack on our madhab. The problem with establishing such incorrect stances as a 'standard position' of Shiism is firstly that it's not true and secondly that people who genuinely think this is an essential belief will end up building their faith on incorrect stances, which can result in a destructive domino effect. 

 

I disagree. The doubts will occur when people educate themselves and realize that what was presented to them as authentic actually isn't. This is why one needs to uphold authenticity from the very start, so that people are 1) aware of the facts (which includes the superior status of Fatimah Zahra (sa) and the event of the cloak)  and 2) not vulnerable to doubts or a lack of credibility when they realize that what they considered indisputable is actually not authentic at all 

my point is that any discussion that limits itself to the count of the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) daughters is as futile a discussion as the count of the Prophet's teeth.

I am all for discussing facts but it should be facts with context.

[ShiaMan14]

On 5/3/2024 at 12:27 PM, Qa'im said:

But regarding the status of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), no, admitting the existence of her sisters does not lower her status. She does not derive her status from being the "only daughter of the Prophet". The Prophet (s) even had sons like Qasim and Ibrahim that we agree on. The status of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) derives from the fact that Allah chose her. She has her own merit, she was the only one under the kisa', she was the only one to inherit from the Prophet, she was the only one with continual descendants, and she was the only one who had Imamate in her line, among many other fada'il. If anything, to say that Fatima (عليه السلام) had sisters makes Fatima (عليه السلام) even greater, because Allah chose her above her own older sisters (and her male siblings too). Actually, denying their existence would deny some of the mathloomiyya of Sayyida Fatima, because it is saying that she did not see her sisters die and live with that. Admitting the existence of Ruqayya bint Rasulullah and Umm Kulthum bint Rasulullah does not raise the status of Uthman, just as the wives of Nuh and Lut did not lower their status. If anything, Uthman going renegade after the Messenger (s) would be an even bigger betrayal, rather than saying that he was never Muslim at all to begin with.

Salaam.

All I am saying is that any discussion about the count of the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) daughters needs to include the green text above as you have so eloquently quoted.

It is not because you have any mal-intentions but because that is the need of our times. This topic highlights "younger shia". I do some work with the youth in my community and can tell you first hand how quickly they are led astray. When I hear things like, "well I am sure Abu Bakr was a better muslim than us..." you realize how much everything needs to be contextualized.

I think most of our youth would hear "Prophet had 4 daughters" and immediately equate all of them as equals without the proper context.

So my brother the problem is not you - the problem is our youth who are constantly bombarded with misinformation and lies. It behooves learned men like you to convert information (4 daughters) into knowledge (greatness of Sayeda Zahra (عليه السلام).

 

 

 

[ShiaMan14]

On 5/3/2024 at 12:27 PM, Qa'im said:

This is why I chose my words very carefully (and this is also why I gave a trigger warning!!!). "The popular version of Hadith al-Kisa" does not mean the event of kisa' in general did not happen. This popular version, in some communities, is recited at every single event (Tuesdays, Thursdays, Ramadan evenings, etc.) and even in weddings and funerals. That means we recite this alleged hadith more than any hadith, any dua, and even most of the Quran. What do we lose by reciting an older, more reliable version of it? It would be shorter and it would show that we are adaptable to the truth.

It reminds me of the verse in the Quran, "So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say, 'This is from Allah ,' in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (2:79)

I understand that for some people, institutionalizing 300-year-old practices is fine, because 300 years is a long time. But time is relative - imagine if, in your lifetime, everyone in 2024 all of a sudden believed that the Prophet (s) was born in Karbala, or that Ali (عليه السلام) was the only son of Abu Talib, or if I wrote a du'a today that is recited in every mosque every Wednesday (for example). Imagine if no one said a word about it. Imagine if people said these beliefs are harmless, fine, good, and even recommended, even if they are false.

The problem is "popular version is not accurate" is what most people will take away when not given the details of what truly happened and what didn't.

The youth of today have an attention span of 30 secs or less so almost all of them would read "popular version of hadith-e-kisa is inaccurate" and reject the entire hadith.

Again, the problem is not you my learned brother - its the youth that needs a big helping hand in turning information into knowledge.

[ShiaMan14]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:04 PM, Zainuu said:

I need your answer on nahj ul balagha sermon 164 where Maala Ali (عليه السلام) actually mentions the relationship of Uthman ibn Afwan with the prophet (S):

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-164-people-are-behind-me

 

what exactly should I answer?

I am not saying "dont discuss facts". I am saying "discuss facts with context". By context I mean everything written in the notes. 

 

 

[ShiaMan14]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:47 PM, Qa'im said:

Most of them are in agreement at this point. Unfortunately, many won’t just freely say this stuff, because audiences aren’t ready for it. I’m of the view that the bandaid just needs to be ripped off.

actually this is a fairly common understanding now. 4 imams are in jannat-ul-baqi and Sayeda Zahra (عليه السلام) is inside the masjid.