New trend amongst younger Shia to challenge long held beliefs

[realizm]

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam thank you a million however , i have not defended making golden shrines which @realizm & @Abu_Zahra have tried to lead  discussion into evil influence of Iran on new generation younger Shia by making golden doos & etc  

No one ever said Iran was oppressing shias by building shrines.

You are making enormous shortcuts and your twisting of my speech is actually mental oppression but I should refrain from saying this by fear of being accused of opposing Wilayat al faqih 

 

[Qa'im]

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

there is a erport that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has made multiple graves in Baqi cemetery during night so then he has not allowed to anyone to open graves  next day in order to so called sunni caliph don't pray on her body  so then justify their caliphate by praying on her blessed body in similar fashion

Can you please share this report? I have heard it mentioned on the minbar but I haven’t seen it yet 

[root]

This fruitful topic turned into a fruitless discussion very fast. It's a shame really...

[Qa'im]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:40 PM, EiE said:

2

The event of Kisa' definitely occurred, according to the most ancient and reliable sources.

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Most people simply recite it because it is in Mafatih al-Jinan by Shaykh `Abbas Qummi (d. 1941 AD). Qummi says he got it from Kitab `Awalim al-`Ulum by `Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani (d. 1700s). That is the earliest source for it, in the late Safavid period and even after Bihar al-Anwar.

Al-Bahrani does provide a chain to it, but the chain is more myth than reality: it goes through almost 1,100 years of our biggest scholars, including Shahid al-Thani, `Allamah al-Hilli, Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Tabarsi, al-Tusi, al-Mufid, al-Kulayni, up to famous narrators like `Ali b. Ibrahim, Al-Bazanti, Abu Basir, Aban b. Taghlib, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) herself.

The obvious problems include (1) these scholars collectively authored many books, yet did not bother writing this very important and beautiful hadith, from Sayyida Fatima herself no less, (2) any game of Telephone that lasts over a millennium can safely be dismissed. Imagine if I told you that Genghis Khan said something, and that was never heard or written from anyone before me. And then imagine it was memorialized as the most cherished piece of Mongolian history. (3) There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Again, truth matters. I'd love for our community to be intellectually honest, and use our time and effort to practice as Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) practiced.

[Guest Guest]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:23 PM, Qa'im said:

Regarding Sayyida Fatima's blessed grave, here are two hadiths saying that she was buried in her house:

عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر البزنطي قال: سألته عن فاطمة بنت رسول الله عليها السلام أي مكان دفنت، فقال: سأل رجل جعفرا عن هذه المسألة وعيسى بن موسى حاضر فقال له عيسى: دفنت في البقيع، فقال الرجل: ما تقول؟ فقال قد قال لك، فقال له أصلحك الله ما أنا وعيسى بن موسى، أخبرني عن آبائك فقال: دفنت في بيتها (2)

173 - الكليني عن علي بن محمد وغيره، عن سهل بن زياد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها، فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد (3)

Here is Shaykh al-Saduq's statement:

۳ ـ ومنهم من روى أنّها دفنت في بيتها فلمّا زادت بنو أميّة في المسجد صارت في المسجد ، وهذا هو الصحيح عندي (۲۹) »

Among them are those who narrated that she was buried in her house; and when Banu Umayya expanded the Mosque, it became inside the Mosque - and this to me is the sahih view.

Shaykh al-Tusi wrote:

أنّه هو الذي روى الرواية الصحيحة على دفنها في منزلها

A sahih report narrates that she was buried in her house.

----

This was narrated by Kulayni, and this was also the position of Ibn Tawus, `Allamah al-Majlisi, and others.

The grave today would be inside the Rawdha, a holy of holies in Islam:

Like the grave of Amir al-Mu’mineen, the imams made the grave of Sayyida Fatima known. The fact that it was a secret burial supports the idea that the funeral and burial took place at her home. If she were buried outdoors, people would’ve noticed, especially since the authorities (including `Umar) were known to watch at night. Medina was not a big city at the time - it was about the size of today's Masjid al-Nabawi complex.

So this is sufficient evidence for me. Yes she was buried in secret, but no we have a good idea of where she was laid to rest.

 

There are three views.

Quote

Ali (عليه السلام) did exactly what she wanted and buried her at night and effaced her grave. The place of her grave remained unknown, although some narrations by the Imams of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) say that she was buried in her house, while others say that she was buried in the rauda (garden) which was, according to some scholars, what the Prophet (sawa) meant in his hadith: ‘Between my grave and my pulpit a garden from the gardens of paradise.' A third possibility, according to others, is that she was buried in the cemetery of al-Baqee'.37

https://www.al-islam.org/fatimah-al-masumah-role-model-men-and-women-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-fadlallah/chapter-1-her-life#1-attack-her-house

[Guest Guest1]

4 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The event of Kisa' definitely occurred, according to the most ancient and reliable sources.

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Most people simply recite it because it is in Mafatih al-Jinan by Shaykh `Abbas Qummi (d. 1941 AD). Qummi says he got it from Kitab `Awalim al-`Ulum by `Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani (d. 1700s). That is the earliest source for it, in the late Safavid period and even after Bihar al-Anwar.

Al-Bahrani does provide a chain to it, but the chain is more myth than reality: it goes through almost 1,100 years of our biggest scholars, including Shahid al-Thani, `Allamah al-Hilli, Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Tabarsi, al-Tusi, al-Mufid, al-Kulayni, up to famous narrators like `Ali b. Ibrahim, Al-Bazanti, Abu Basir, Aban b. Taghlib, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) herself.

The obvious problems include (1) these scholars collectively authored many books, yet did not bother writing this very important and beautiful hadith, from Sayyida Fatima herself no less, (2) any game of Telephone that lasts over a millennium can safely be dismissed. Imagine if I told you that Genghis Khan said something, and that was never heard or written from anyone before me. And then imagine it was memorialized as the most cherished piece of Mongolian history. (3) There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Again, truth matters. I'd love for our community to be intellectually honest, and use our time and effort to practice as Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) practiced.

There are methods based on your fallible investigations which are ever evolving, what was authentic could be unauthentic and what was unauthentic is now authentic - "the term " it self is very subjective. There are holistic ways - which include the academic ways and other evidences and in some cases There are proofs from the realm of the unseen in certain of our Ziyarats( Ziyarat Ashura)  and Hadiths like Hadith Kissa.....Let's not deprive the believers from something we may not completely comprehend.

0:38 / 6:00

(English) Ayatollah Bahjat & Shaikh Jaffar Mujtahidi Emphasizing On The Recitation Of Hadith-e-Kisa.

[Guest Guest]

5 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The event of Kisa' definitely occurred, according to the most ancient and reliable sources.

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Most people simply recite it because it is in Mafatih al-Jinan by Shaykh `Abbas Qummi (d. 1941 AD). Qummi says he got it from Kitab `Awalim al-`Ulum by `Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani (d. 1700s). That is the earliest source for it, in the late Safavid period and even after Bihar al-Anwar.

Al-Bahrani does provide a chain to it, but the chain is more myth than reality: it goes through almost 1,100 years of our biggest scholars, including Shahid al-Thani, `Allamah al-Hilli, Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Tabarsi, al-Tusi, al-Mufid, al-Kulayni, up to famous narrators like `Ali b. Ibrahim, Al-Bazanti, Abu Basir, Aban b. Taghlib, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) herself.

The obvious problems include (1) these scholars collectively authored many books, yet did not bother writing this very important and beautiful hadith, from Sayyida Fatima herself no less, (2) any game of Telephone that lasts over a millennium can safely be dismissed. Imagine if I told you that Genghis Khan said something, and that was never heard or written from anyone before me. And then imagine it was memorialized as the most cherished piece of Mongolian history. (3) There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Again, truth matters. I'd love for our community to be intellectually honest, and use our time and effort to practice as Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) practiced.

There is another view.

 

[Guest Guest]

5 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The event of Kisa' definitely occurred, according to the most ancient and reliable sources.

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Most people simply recite it because it is in Mafatih al-Jinan by Shaykh `Abbas Qummi (d. 1941 AD). Qummi says he got it from Kitab `Awalim al-`Ulum by `Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani (d. 1700s). That is the earliest source for it, in the late Safavid period and even after Bihar al-Anwar.

Al-Bahrani does provide a chain to it, but the chain is more myth than reality: it goes through almost 1,100 years of our biggest scholars, including Shahid al-Thani, `Allamah al-Hilli, Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Tabarsi, al-Tusi, al-Mufid, al-Kulayni, up to famous narrators like `Ali b. Ibrahim, Al-Bazanti, Abu Basir, Aban b. Taghlib, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) herself.

The obvious problems include (1) these scholars collectively authored many books, yet did not bother writing this very important and beautiful hadith, from Sayyida Fatima herself no less, (2) any game of Telephone that lasts over a millennium can safely be dismissed. Imagine if I told you that Genghis Khan said something, and that was never heard or written from anyone before me. And then imagine it was memorialized as the most cherished piece of Mongolian history. (3) There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Again, truth matters. I'd love for our community to be intellectually honest, and use our time and effort to practice as Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) practiced.

what is your take on this 

Quote

Can you please give the chains of narration of Hadith Kisa from Shia books and their authenticity according to Shia science of Rijal?

Sayyed Mohammad Al-Musawi, Sayyed Mohammad al-Musawi is originally from Iraq and heads up the World Ahlul Bayt Islamic League in London. Other than being involved in various humanitarian projects, he frequently responds to...Answered 1 year ago

Hadeeth Kisa is one of the most  authentic Hadeeths in both Sunni and Shia books. It was narrated by more than twenty authentic narrators like Umm Salamah, Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri, Ayisha, Jabir ibn Abdillah Al-Ansari and others. Sunni and Shia books narrated Hadeeth Kisa in its brief version stating that the Prophet Muhammad (SAWA) called Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and put on them a cloak (Kisa') and said: O Allah, these are my Ahlul Bayt. He did not allow any of his wives to join them despite the request from Umm Salamah and Ayisha in two different occasions when the same happened in their presence.

Beside this narration, there is another long narration of Hadeeth e Kisaa' by Jaabir ibn Abdillah Al-Ansaari from Fatima (عليه السلام) which is been recited by the followers of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) in their religious and social gatherings for getting the blessings. This narration of Hadeeth e Kisaa has been narrated  by many great scholars with full chain of authentic narrators. In 'Awaalim of Shaikh Abdullah Al-Bahrani from Sayyed Hashim Al-Bahrani, from Sayyed Maajid Al-Bahrani, from Shaikh Hasan ibn Zain Al Abidin (Al-Shaheed the Thani), from Al-Muqaddas Al-Ardabili, from ibn Abd Al-AALI Al-Karaki, from Ali ibn Hilal Al-Jazaeri, from Ahmad ibn Fahad Al-Hilli, from Ali ibn Al-Khaazin Al-Haeri, from Ali ibn Al-Shaheed Al-Awwal, from Al-Shaheed Al-Awwal, from Fakhr Al-Muhaqqiqeen, from his father  Hasan ibn Yousuf Al-Allama Hal-Hilli from Ibn Nama Al-Hilli, from Muhammad ibn Idrees Al-Hilli, from ibn Hamza Al-Toosi, from Muhammad ibn Shahr Aashoub, from Al-Tabrasi of al-Ehtijaj, from his Shaikh Al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Al-Hasan Al-Toosi, from his father Al-Shaikh Al-Toosi from his shaikh Al-Mufeed, from his Shaikh ibn Qawlawayh, from his shaikh Al-Kulaini, from Ali ibn Ibrahim, from Ibrahim ibn Hashim, from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Nasr Al-- Bizanti, from Qasim ibn Yahya Al-Jallaa', from Abi Nassar, from Aban ibn Taghlib, from Jabir ibn Yazeed Al-Jo'fi, from Jabir ibn Abdillah Al-Ansari from Fatima (عليه السلام).

Many other great scholars have also narrated this Hadeeth like Fakhr Al-Deen Al-Turaihi in his book Al-Mubtakhab Al-Kabeer, Al-Dailami  of al-Irshad in his book Al-Ghurar WAL-Dorar. Al-Husain Al-. Al-Hanafi who is a Sunni Hanafi Aalim has also narrated this Hadeeth.

Wassalam.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/topics/3495/questions-about-Hadith-al-Kisa'

[Qa'im]

32 minutes ago, Guest Guest1 said:

There are methods based on your fallible investigations which are ever evolving, what was authentic could be unauthentic and what was unauthentic is now authentic - "the term " it self is very subjective. There are holistic ways - which include the academic ways and other evidences and in some cases There are proofs from the realm of the unseen in certain of our Ziyarats( Ziyarat Ashura)  and Hadiths like Hadith Kissa.....Let's not deprive the believers from something we may not completely comprehend.

I approved these posts so that people can see the other side of the argument and judge for themselves.

If someone wants to prove the authenticity, reliability, reality, truth, factuality, strength, (whichever synonym you’d prefer to use) of Hadith al-Kisa for example, using one methodology or ten, in an objective or subjective way, they are more than welcome to.

If they want to claim that they have a supernatural ability to recognize true and false narrations, without a methodology, that is their prerogative. At that point, some Sunni will just say that fulan is the best sahabi, because Allah inspired him to think that; and there’d be no way to consistently counter that if we’re just doing the same thing.

[AbdusSibtayn]

6 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The event of Kisa' definitely occurred, according to the most ancient and reliable sources.

However, there is a long narration about the event that is colloquially referred to as "Hadith al-Kisa". In some communities, this "Hadith al-Kisa" is recited every Tuesday and Thursday, every mawlid and shahada date, nights of Ramadan, and weddings. This would automatically make it the most recited hadith in the Shi'a community, and recited more than almost any verse in the Quran (with exception to al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas).

Most people simply recite it because it is in Mafatih al-Jinan by Shaykh `Abbas Qummi (d. 1941 AD). Qummi says he got it from Kitab `Awalim al-`Ulum by `Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani (d. 1700s). That is the earliest source for it, in the late Safavid period and even after Bihar al-Anwar.

Al-Bahrani does provide a chain to it, but the chain is more myth than reality: it goes through almost 1,100 years of our biggest scholars, including Shahid al-Thani, `Allamah al-Hilli, Ibn Shahr Ashub, al-Tabarsi, al-Tusi, al-Mufid, al-Kulayni, up to famous narrators like `Ali b. Ibrahim, Al-Bazanti, Abu Basir, Aban b. Taghlib, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, to Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) herself.

The obvious problems include (1) these scholars collectively authored many books, yet did not bother writing this very important and beautiful hadith, from Sayyida Fatima herself no less, (2) any game of Telephone that lasts over a millennium can safely be dismissed. Imagine if I told you that Genghis Khan said something, and that was never heard or written from anyone before me. And then imagine it was memorialized as the most cherished piece of Mongolian history. (3) There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Again, truth matters. I'd love for our community to be intellectually honest, and use our time and effort to practice as Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) practiced.

What I have been told by some scholars (the person who told me had himself heard this either from Sayyid Ali Abu'l Hassan or Sayyid Zanjani IIRC) is that the current version of the Hadith al-Kisa wasn't even included in the earliest editions/original manuscript of the Mafatih by al-Qummi (rh), but added to the subsequent editions by some publisher himself. Since I don't have access to those early editions, I have not been able to verify this detail independently. 

Also there are other discrepancies involved in the text as well; for instance, the earliest narrations tell us that the event took place in Umm Salama (sa) 's house, whereas the currently popular version shows it to have happened in Sayyida Zahra (sa)'s house. 

The general emotive response (typical of these constituencies) is that 'Oh, so are you now doubting the authenticity of the hadith?', while this straw-man is farthest from the reality. In all honesty, these canards are getting annoying now. 

Edited May 6 by AbdusSibtayn

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/5/2024 at 3:57 PM, Qa'im said:

There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Salam changing in name of cloth doesn't change authenticity of event which in Arabic costumes same stuff may have different names likewise Kisa which  material of it has been from property of lady Fatima (sa) from farms of Khaybar (Fadak) but it has been turned into Kisa in a factory in Yemen or made based on Yemeni formula ; likewise Apple products which are "designed in California" but are "Made in China" which people call it as "American product"  which there is some reports which Imams have gifted shroud to some devoted shias from inheritance of lady Fatima (sa) from land of Fadak which origin of material has been from Khaybar (Fadak) which it has been weaved by lady Fatima (sa) in Medina based on common formula of weaving of shroud at her time from Yemen which has been center of making best products of her time which raw materials have been importing to it through multiple sources likewise  Khaybar (Fadak) so then after processing raw materials it would turn into the Yemani (Yemeni) product likewise Yemani (Yemeni) Kisa which has been made from raw materials of Khaybar (Fadak) so therefore calling it as "Yemeni cloth" or "Khaybari cloth" has same meaning while mentioning Kahybar means it has been originated from share of Lady Fatima (sa) from Fadak (Khaybar)  .

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Can you please share this report? I have heard it mentioned on the minbar but I haven’t seen it yet 

Salam 

When Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) acted on the will of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), the public opinion became doubtful and the legitimacy of the caliph at that time was questioned and the oppression of Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) became more and more obvious and the question why the grave Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) remains unknown and hidden; It was brought up for everyone. When Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) passed away, people hurriedly went to the house of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and were waiting for her body to come out, when Abu Dharr told them that the funeral of the daughter of the Prophet of Islam won't take place tonight ; it's been delayed.

After the people dispersed, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) bathed and shrouded the body of Hazrat Zahra (s.a.) with the help of  Asma, and in the middle of the night, along with some of his friends and relatives, including: Abu Dharr, Miqdad, Salman, Zubair, Ammar, Abbas and... buried the body of Hazrat Fatimah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) at night. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) leveled the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) equal to the ground and according to a tradition, His majesty made [several] graves in several areas of Baqi so that the enemies could not find out which one is the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and this is remained  the secret of being hidden of grave of Hazrat Zahra (s.a.) . The grave of Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has remained forever and the people who were present at the funeral did not reveal the hiding place of the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). (Majlesi, Mohammad Baqir, Bihar al-Anwar, translated by Mohammad Javad Najafi, Islamiya Publishing House, 1354, Volume 10, p. 195)

https://salamdonya.com/religious/fatimah-bint-muhammad

 

Quote

In the end, it should be said that historians believe that the grave of Hazrat Zahra, although it is not clearly known. But in general, it is either in Baqi or in her house.

https://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/65655

3 - The burial place from the Shiite point of view
[edit]
In the hadiths of the Shia imams, the place of burial is often mentioned as the house of the Prophet.

3.1 - Quotation from Imam Sadiq
Ibn Shuba narrated from Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) that his majesty said:

Quote

Ibn Shuba narrated from Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) that he said:

قُبِرَت فاطمة سلام الله علیها فی بیتها الَّذی أدخله عمربن عبدالعزیز فی المسجد.[۲]

In a gathering where Imam Jafar Sadiq (peace be upon him) and Isa bin Musa Abbasi were present, someone asked where Hazrat Fatima was buried.Isa said: In Baqi. That person asked the imam. Hazrat said: Isa answered you. That person said: I am asking you and I want to know the opinion of your fathers. Hazrat said:

دُفِنَتْ‌ فِي‌ بَيْتِهَا. [۳]

[۲].   تاریخ المدینة المنوره، ابن شبه، عمر بن شبه، ج۱، ص۱۰۷.    
[۳].     قرب الاسناد، حمیری، عبد الله بن جعفر، ص۳۶۷.    

3.2 - Quotation from Imam Reza
Abu Nasr Bazanti has narrated from Imam Reza (peace be upon him) that he was asked about the burial place of Fatima Zahra (peace be upon her). Hazrat said:

Quote

 دُفِنَتْ فِی بَیْتِهَا فَلَمَّا زَادَتْ بَنُو أُمَیَّةَ فِی الْمَسْجِدِ صَارَتْ فِی الْمَسْجِدِ.[۴]

 الکافی، کلینی، محمد بن یعقوب، ج۱، ص۴۶۱.    

Hazrat was buried in her house and when the Umayyads developed the mosque, the burial place was placed in the mosque.

Kafi , kulayni , V 1 , p 461

3.3 - The view of Shia scholars
The existence of these narrations caused prominent Shiite scholars such as Sheikh Sadouq, Sheikh Mofid, Sheikh Tusi, Ibn Tavus and Allameh Majlisi to consider the her majesty's burial place as her own house. Where it is now in the mosque or on the outskirts of the mosque. [5][6][7]

Quote

[۵].  [5]  السرائر الحاوی لتحریر الفتاوی، ابن ادریس حلی، محمد بن احمد، ج ۱، ص ۶۵۲.    
[۶].[6]    ↑ فصلنامه میقات حج، ش۷، ص۹۶-۹۷.
[۷].[7]    ↑ فصلنامه میقات حج، ش۲۶، ص۱۰۴.

3.4 - The point of view of Sheikh Sadouq

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Sheikh Sadouq has written :

 اخْتَلَفَتِ الرِّوَايَاتُ فِي مَوْضِعِ قَبْرِ فَاطِمَةَ سَيِّدَةِ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ ع فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ رَوَى أَنَّهَا دُفِنَتْ فِي الْبَقِيعِ‌، وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ رَوَى أَنَّهَا دُفِنَتْ بَيْنَ الْقَبْرِ وَالْمِنْبَرِ وَأَنَّ النَّبِيَّ ص إِنَّمَا قَالَ: مَا بَيْنَ قَبْرِي وَمِنْبَرِي رَوْضَةٌ مِنْ رِيَاضِ الْجَنَّةِ؛ لِأَنَّ قَبْرَهَا بَيْنَ الْقَبْرِ وَالْمِنْبَرِ، وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ رَوَى أَنَّهَا دُفِنَتْ‌ فِي‌ بَيْتِهَا فَلَمَّا زَادَتْ بَنُو أُمَيَّةَ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ صَارَتْ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ، وَهَذَا هُوَ الصَّحِيحُ عِنْدِي‌؛ 

The narrations about the burial of Fatima Zahra (peace be upon her) are different. Some of them consider the grave to be Baqi' and others consider it to be between the grave and the pulpit. Some consider the tomb to be the house of her majesty, which it has been inserted  inside the mosque when the Umayyads enlarged the mosque. This statement is correct for me.[8]

۸.    من لایحضره الفقیه، شیخ صدوق، محمد بن علی، ج۲، ص۵۷۲.

[8]    Man la yahduruh al-faqih , Al-Shaykh al-Saduq , v2 , P 572

The place has been identified as the grave of that her majesty in Baqi is below the graves of the four Imams, in the right (northwest) part of them, and it is possible that this is the place of the grave of Fatima bint Asad.

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/قبر_حضرت_فاطمه_زهرا

Another point is that the secrecy of the grave of Hazrat Zahra is a barrier that prevents the distortion of the history of the beginning of Islam and prevents a group from denying the attitude of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) towards the events that occurred. This issue itself is a sign that guides the lovers of the truth to the shore of salvation in the turbulent sea of seditions and removes the dust from the face of the truth and completes the divine proof on everyone.

Furthermore; Because the approximate limits of her  grave [2] have been stated, people can use the blessings and spiritual gifts of her enlightened grave in these places that are close to each other.

In any case, what has been stated are the points that are confirmed by analogies and evidences, and it does not mean that all the secrets are the same as stated; It means that there may be other secrets hidden in this issue that will be revealed to future generations.

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa418

[EiE]

On 5/5/2024 at 10:57 PM, Qa'im said:

There are differences between the "Hadith al-Kisa" and the actual event - for example, in "Hadith al-Kisa", it is a Yemeni cloth, while in older sources, it is a Khaybari cloth.

Are there more differences?

[Qa'im]

On 5/6/2024 at 3:28 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

according to a tradition, His majesty made [several] graves in several areas of Baqi so that the enemies could not find out which one is the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))

Do you know where this tradition can be found?

5 hours ago, EiE said:

Are there more differences?

You can read the link you quoted and compare them. In short, the "Hadith al-Kisa" is much longer, takes place in Sayyida Fatima's house, talks about the Prophet's weakness and his beauty and fragrance, has each person ask for permission to be under the cloak, and talks about Imamah and cosmology etc.

Again, the event is true, and even many of the embellishments are based on true things. I actually think Hadith al-Kisa is beautiful from a literary and theological standpoint. My issue is with the centrality we've placed on this specific recension, which despite its lateness, is the most quoted scripture in many communities.

On 4/29/2024 at 1:40 PM, EiE said:

1

I'll make a correction to my previous statement and inshallah lead by example by doing so. Of the 8 things I mentioned, this is the one I got wrong. I went and revised my original statement now.

I went looking for the earliest version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech, and I found this. It is from a book called Balaghat al-Nisa by a Sunni linguist named Ahmad b. Abi Tahir Tayfur (d. 893 AD). He has a version of it on page 38-40.

Typically, something like this would not be considered strong, but it is history and it is relatively early.

[Qa'im]

On 5/5/2024 at 10:00 PM, Guest Guest said:

There is another view.

 

To respond quickly to this video:

1. He mentions how Shaykh Ja`far Mujtahidi would tell people to recite Hadith al-Kisa to bring light (noor) to a house. If only Hadith al-Kisa can bring noor to a house, then every house would be dark until 1700 AD. The fact of the matter is, we had a millennium of scholars, mystics, pious people, and martyrs who weren't reciting this, didn't bother even mentioning it anywhere, and it would be inappropriate to cast doubt on their piety or their clairvoyance based on such a late yardstick.

2. He accuses those students of knowledge in Qum who called Hadith al-Kisa weak of starting fitna, and says that eventually they'd weaken the Quran, and they want to destroy your religion and your relationship with Allah. This is pure su' al-thunn, strawman fallacy, slippery slope fallacy, etc. He also says that the Quran has no isnad, which is not true, and every student of knowledge knows this. I was surprised to see such a basic error being touted by a seasoned preacher. Not only do the qira'at have asaneed, but the Quran has a rich manuscript tradition and early attestation.

3. He says that Ayatullah Bahjat commanded the people to read Hadith al-Kisa. That is fine, no one is casting doubt on Ayatullah Bahjat's piety. But even the best of us can make mistakes. When he was alive, Ayatullah Bahjat was often quoted as having said that the elderly people will witness the reappearance of the Imam. He then passed away in 2009, and some people denied that he had actually said this. Whether he said it or not, our standard is not what this 21st century scholar says or doesn't say.

4. He says that Allah granted his relative a daughter because of these a`mal that he would recite. I'm happy that Allah granted him a daughter, but many people would attribute having a child to different circumstances. I have relatives and friends that claimed to have been granted a daughter after visiting Khalid b. Walid's shrine in Homs, or the alleged Sayyida Zaynab shrine in Egypt. Again, this is not our standard.

5. He says, if this is weak, "then why are you Shi'a for?". Ding ding ding! Thank you. Somehow, casting doubt on a 300-year-old hadith = casting doubt on Shiism? Is that what Shiism is to you - hadith al-thaqalayn means nothing, hadith al-ghadir means nothing, all the evidences are nothing, but Shiism is attached to this one forgery? The sheer willingness to kick people out of Shiism based on this is fitna.

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

1. He mentions how Shaykh Ja`far Mujtahidi would tell people to recite Hadith al-Kisa to bring light (noor) to a house. If only Hadith al-Kisa can bring noor to a house, then every house would be dark until 1700 AD. The fact of the matter is, we had a millennium of scholars, mystics, pious people, and martyrs who weren't reciting this, didn't bother even mentioning it anywhere, and it would be inappropriate to cast doubt on their piety or their clairvoyance based on such a late yardstick.

Salam this is totally comparing apples with oranges which even ased on Shaykh Ja`far Mujtahidi all good deeds likewise reciting holy Quran & praying in house & reciting any dua brings light (Noot) to a house which reciting Hadith Kasa is one of recommended deeds not only one although he has emphasized on it .

 

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

2. He accuses those students of knowledge in Qum who called Hadith al-Kisa weak of starting fitna, and says that eventually they'd weaken the Quran, and they want to destroy your religion and your relationship with Allah. This is pure su' al-thunn, strawman fallacy, slippery slope fallacy, etc. He also says that the Quran has no isnad, which is not true, and every student of knowledge knows this. I was surprised to see such a basic error being touted by a seasoned preacher. Not only do the qira'at have asaneed, but the Quran has a rich manuscript tradition and early attestation.

This is just a laughable logic from you which He has mentioned that Isnad of holy Quran is not likewise  Isnad of Hadith which anyone can make doubt  in Isnad of any Hadith but nobody can deny holy Quran based something likewise Isnad.

 

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

3. He says that Ayatullah Bahjat commanded the people to read Hadith al-Kisa. That is fine, no one is casting doubt on Ayatullah Bahjat's piety. But even the best of us can make mistakes. When he was alive, Ayatullah Bahjat was often quoted as having said that the elderly people will witness the reappearance of the Imam. He then passed away in 2009, and some people denied that he had actually said this. Whether he said it or not, our standard is not what this 21st century scholar says or doesn't say.

This has been a mistake by common people not scholars which Ayatullah Behjat has talked that even old people have hope of witnessing reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) while he has not mentioned any time also he has not mentioned that he will see it himself.

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

4. He says that Allah granted his relative a daughter because of these a`mal that he would recite. I'm happy that Allah granted him a daughter, but many people would attribute having a child to different circumstances. I have relatives and friends that claimed to have been granted a daughter after visiting Khalid b. Walid's shrine in Homs, or the alleged Sayyida Zaynab shrine in Egypt. Again, this is not our standard.

Yeah , this is not standard anyway there is no report that Allah granted  a daughter to a sunni after visiting Khalid b.Walid  because all sunnis don't consider him as a holy person although some of them may say such nonsense just for opposing Shias which no miracle has reported or recorded around his tomb which in similar fashion Sunnis in Egypt are visiting  alleged Sayyida Zaynab shrine in Egypt which until now no miracle has reported even between Arab channels although Egyptians believe to sacred ness of  alleged place of  holding head of imam Hussain (عليه السلام)  with some stories about happening of miracles in Masjid al Hussain egypt which all famous Egyptian Quran reciters have started their professional career from it for benefiting from blessing of this mosque . 

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One of the most sacred Islamic sites in Egypt, this mosque is the reputed burial place of the head of Hussein, the grandson of Prophet Mohammed. Most of the building dates from about 1870, except for the beautiful 14th-century stucco panels on the minaret. The modern metal sculptures in front are elegant Teflon canopies that expand to cover worshippers during Friday prayers. This is one of the few mosques where non-Muslims can't enter.

The death of Hussein in Karbala, Iraq, cemented the rift between the Sunni and Shiite branches of Islam. It has to be said that the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus also claims Hussein's head, a Shiite relic, even though both mosques were established by Sunnis.

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/egypt/cairo/attractions/mosque-of-sayyidna-al-hussein/a/poi-sig/1430986/355225

https://travel.sygic.com/en/poi/hussein-mosque-poi:8681#:~:text=The-Hussein Mosque is a mosque and mausoleum originally,named after Prophet Muhammad's grandson%2C Hussain ibn Ali.

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

5. He says, if this is weak, "then why are you Shi'a for?". Ding ding ding! Thank you. Somehow, casting doubt on a 300-year-old hadith = casting doubt on Shiism? Is that what Shiism is to you - hadith al-thaqalayn means nothing, hadith al-ghadir means nothing, all the evidences are nothing, but Shiism is attached to this one forgery? The sheer willingness to kick people out of Shiism based on this is fitna.

you always have called Hadith kisa as weak narration or forgery while until now  you have not provided any reliable evidence for proving your accusation except some void accusations form so called reformers who in similar fashion have not provided any reliable evidence for proving their accusation which your current stand is totally against our Academic background which you are acting likewise people with low knowledge who just are repeating their hearing which they have heard from Minbars so then fall in doubt while they have no mean for overcoming their doubts .

Anyway denying Hadith Kisa doesn't affect validity of Shia islam which in simlar fashion weakening or misrepresenting or even denying Hadith of Ghadir & Thaqalayn  by Wahabis has not invalidated truth of Shiiism . 

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Do you know where this tradition can be found?

I have provided source of it at end of it .

(Majlesi, Mohammad Baqir, Bihar al-Anwar, translated by Mohammad Javad Najafi, Islamiya Publishing House, 1354, Volume 10, p. 195)

(مجلسی، محمد باقر، بحارالانوار، ترجمة محمدجواد نجفی، انتشارات اسلامیه، 1354، جلد دهم، ص 195) 

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When Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) acted on the will of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), the public opinion became doubtful and the legitimacy of the caliph at that time was questioned and the oppression of Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) became more and more obvious and the question why the grave Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) remains unknown and hidden; It was brought up for everyone. When Hazrat Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) passed away, people hurriedly went to the house of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and were waiting for her body to come out, when Abu Dharr told them that the funeral of the daughter of the Prophet of Islam won't take place tonight ; it's been delayed.

After the people dispersed, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) bathed and shrouded the body of Hazrat Zahra (s.a.) with the help of  Asma, and in the middle of the night, along with some of his friends and relatives, including: Abu Dharr, Miqdad, Salman, Zubair, Ammar, Abbas and... buried the body of Hazrat Fatimah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) at night. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) leveled the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) equal to the ground and according to a tradition, His majesty made [several] graves in several areas of Baqi so that the enemies could not find out which one is the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and this is remained  the secret of being hidden of grave of Hazrat Zahra (s.a.) . The grave of Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has remained forever and the people who were present at the funeral did not reveal the hiding place of the grave of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). (Majlesi, Mohammad Baqir, Bihar al-Anwar, translated by Mohammad Javad Najafi, Islamiya Publishing House, 1354, Volume 10, p. 195)

https://salamdonya.com/religious/fatimah-bint-muhammad

 

Edited May 8 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

but Shiism is attached to this one forgery? The sheer willingness to kick people out of Shiism based on this is fitna.

Salam

The authenticity of Hadees Kisa

Literature pertaining to the Hadees Kisa

Several scholars within the Shi’a tradition have authored literary works pertaining to the veracity of Hadees kisa including:

The Sanad-i Hadees kisa, which pertains to the narration of the Hadees kisa , was authenticated by Ayatollah Mar’ashi Najafi in the year 1356/1937.

The aforementioned text pertains to Ayat al-Tathir within the context of the five members of the household of the cloak, as authored by Muhyi al-Din al-Musawi al-Ghurayfi in the year 1377 of the Islamic calendar, corresponding to 1957-8 in the Gregorian calendar.

The Hadees kisa  is a text that has been documented by Sayyid Murtaza Askari and has been published twice. The first publication was in 1395/1975-6, while the second publication included additional Shia sources and was released in 1402/1981-2. This text is recognised among the ahl al-Sunna community.

The works in question are Al-Tuhfa al-kisa’iyya by Shaykh Bafghi Yazdi (d. 1310/1892-3) and Kashf al-Ghita’ ‘an Hadith al-Kisa’ by Shaykh Ali Al Abd al-Ghaffar al-Kashmiri (d. 1345/1926-7).

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According to Al-Tabari’s work, Dala’il al-imama, there was a consensus among Muslims that during the revelation of the Tathir Verse, the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))summoned  Hazrat Ali as Hazrat Fatima as Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and enshrouded them with His kisa, subsequently praying:

“O Allah! These individuals are my family ,(Ahle bait) so please remove all impurities from them and purify them thoroughly.”

https://shiabeliefs.com/hadees-kisa-benefits/

Authenticity

The authenticity of the event is not doubted at all, and great Muhaddiths have narrated it in their books. The hadith is Mustafid, and even with broader research, it could be claimed to be Mutawatir. The event was so famous in the Islamic society that the day of it became known as the day of Kisa' and the five persons who were the subject of the special favor of God in the event were known as Ahl al-Kisa' or Ashab al-Kisa' (the people of Kisa').^[6]

Al-Tabari has written in his book Dala'il al-imama: the Muslims built a consensus that in the time of the revelation of the Tathir Verse, the Prophet (s) called Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn and covered them with his kisa' and prayed: 'O Allah! These are my family so repel all impurity from them and purify them with a thorough purification'."^[7]

In Shi'a Books

The hadith is narrated in Shi'a exegetic books, like: Tafsir al-Qummi^[8], Tafsir Furat al-Kufi^[9], Al-Burhan fi tafsir al-Qur'an^[10], etc.

Also, in Shi'a Hadith books the Hadith is narrated, like: Usul al-kafi and Amali ^[11], etc.

In Sunni Books

Hadith al-Kisa' is narrated in Sunni Hadith books as well. The hadith is narrated in Sahih Muslim: Aisha says: one day, the Prophet (s) came, with a kisa' (cloak), woven from black wool, on his shoulder. First, al-Hasan (a) came and the Prophet (s) covered him with the kisa', then al-Husayn (a) came, he covered him with the kisa', then Fatima (a) came and went under the Kisa', and then Ali (a) came and the Prophet (s) covered him with the others with the kisa' and said: "Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from only you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification."^[12]

Ibn Hajar in al-Sawa'iq al-muhriqa: it is narrated with authentic chain of transmission that the Prophet (s) covered the four with a kisa' and said: "O Allah! These are my Ahl al-Bayt and special people to me, so repel all impurity from them and purify them with a thorough purification.".^[13] Ibn Athir in Usd al-ghaba^[14] and Ahmad b. Hanbal in his Musnad^[15] have narrated the hadith. Ibn Taymiyya writes in Minhaj al-sunna: "the Hadith al-Kisa' is one of the authentic Hadiths that al-Tirmidhi has narrated it from Umm Salama, and Muslim had narrated it from Aisha in his Sahih."^[16]

Hadith al-Kisa' is also narrated in Sunni exegetic books by: al-Zamakhsahri in al-Kashshaf^[17], Fakhr al-Razi in al-Tafsir al-kabir^[18], and al-Qurtubi^[19], Ibn Kathir,^[20] and al-Suyuti^[21] in their exegetic books. Al-Qurtubi in the exegesis of the Tathir Verse, narrated from Umm Salama: when the Tathir verse was revealed, the Prophet (s) called Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn and covered them with a kisa'.^[22]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_al-Kisa'

Can you please give the chains of narration of Hadith Kisa from Shia books and their authenticity according to Shia science of Rijal?

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Sayyed Mohammad Al-Musawi, Sayyed Mohammad al-Musawi is originally from Iraq and heads up the World Ahlul Bayt Islamic League in London. Other than being involved in various humanitarian projects, he frequently responds to...Answered 1 year ago

Hadeeth Kisa is one of the most  authentic Hadeeths in both Sunni and Shia books. It was narrated by more than twenty authentic narrators like Umm Salamah, Abu Sa'eed Al-Khudri, Ayisha, Jabir ibn Abdillah Al-Ansari and others. Sunni and Shia books narrated Hadeeth Kisa in its brief version stating that the Prophet Muhammad (SAWA) called Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and put on them a cloak (Kisa') and said: O Allah, these are my Ahlul Bayt. He did not allow any of his wives to join them despite the request from Umm Salamah and Ayisha in two different occasions when the same happened in their presence.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/topics/3495/questions-about-Hadith-al-Kisa'

 

Grade:     Hasan (Darussalam)        
Reference     : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3871
In-book reference     : Book 49, Hadith 271
English translation     : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3871

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حَدَّثَنَا مَحْمُودُ بْنُ غَيْلاَنَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أَحْمَدَ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ زُبَيْدٍ، عَنْ شَهْرِ بْنِ حَوْشَبٍ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم جَلَّلَ عَلَى الْحَسَنِ وَالْحُسَيْنِ وَعَلِيٍّ وَفَاطِمَةَ كِسَاءً ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ اللَّهُمَّ هَؤُلاَءِ أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَخَاصَّتِي أَذْهِبْ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَطَهِّرْهُمْ تَطْهِيرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ وَأَنَا مَعَهُمْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنَّكَ عَلَى خَيْرٍ ‏"‏ ‏. هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ صَحِيحٌ وَهُوَ أَحْسَنُ شَيْءٍ رُوِيَ فِي هَذَا الْبَابِ ‏.‏ وَفِي الْبَابِ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ وَأَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ وَأَبِي الْحَمْرَاءِ وَمَعْقِلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ وَعَائِشَةَ ‏.‏

Narrated Umm Salamah: "The Prophet (ﷺ) put a garment over Al-Hasan, Al-Hussain, 'Ali and Fatimah, then he said: 'O Allah, these are the people of my house and the close ones, so remove the Rijs from them and purify them thoroughly." So Umm Salamah said: 'And am I with them, O Messenger of Allah?' He said: "You are upon good."'

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3871

Grade:     Hasan (Darussalam)        
Reference     : Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3871
In-book reference     : Book 49, Hadith 271
English translation     : Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3871
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3871

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3871

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ‏: ‏ حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، قَالَ‏: ‏ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللهِ بْنُ الْمُبَارَكِ، عَنِ ابْنِ شَوْذَبٍ قَالَ‏: ‏ سَمِعْتُ مَالِكَ بْنَ دِينَارٍ يُحَدِّثُ، عَنْ أَبِي غَالِبٍ، عَنْ أُمِّ الدَّرْدَاءِ قَالَتْ‏: ‏ زَارَنَا سَلْمَانُ مِنَ الْمَدَائِنِ إِلَى الشَّامِ مَاشِيًا، وَعَلَيْهِ كِسَاءٌ وَانْدَرْوَرْدُ، قَالَ‏: ‏ يَعْنِي سَرَاوِيلَ مُشَمَّرَةً، قَالَ ابْنُ شَوْذَبٍ‏: ‏ رُؤِيَ سَلْمَانُ وَعَلَيْهِ كِسَاءٌ مَطْمُومُ الرَّأْسِ سَاقِطُ الأُذُنَيْنِ، يَعْنِي أَنَّهُ كَانَ أَرْفَشَ‏.‏ فَقِيلَ لَهُ‏: ‏ شَوَّهْتَ نَفْسَكَ، قَالَ‏: ‏ إِنَّ الْخَيْرَ خَيْرُ الاخِرَةِ‏.‏

Umm ad-Darda' said, "Salman came from al-Mada'in (Ctesiphon) to Syria to visit us on foot wearing a shirt (kisa') and trousers." Shawdhab said, "Salman was seen wearing a short with all his hair shaved off and his large ears showing. He was told, 'You have made yourself ugly.' He replied, "The real good is the good of the Next World.'"

Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 346
https://sunnah.com/adab:346

Grade:     Hasan (Al-Albani)      حـسـن   (الألباني)    حكم   :
Reference     : Al-Adab Al-Mufrad 346
In-book reference     : Book 17, Hadith 0
English translation     : Book 17, Hadith 346

 

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، أَخْبَرَنِي سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ الْمُغِيرَةِ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ هِلاَلٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بُرْدَةَ، قَالَ دَخَلْتُ عَلَى عَائِشَةَ فَأَخْرَجَتْ لِي إِزَارًا غَلِيظًا مِنَ الَّتِي تُصْنَعُ بِالْيَمَنِ وَكِسَاءً مِنْ هَذِهِ الأَكْسِيَةِ الَّتِي تُدْعَى الْمُلَبَّدَةَ وَأَقْسَمَتْ لِي لَقُبِضَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فِيهِمَا ‏.‏

It was narrated that Abu Burdah said: “I entered upon ‘Aishah and she brought out to me a thick waist wrap of the type made in Yemen, and one of these cloaks that are called Mulabbadah,* and she swore to me that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had passed away in them.”

Sunan Ibn Majah 3551

Grade:     Sahih (Darussalam)        
Reference     : Sunan Ibn Majah 3551
In-book reference     : Book 32, Hadith 2
English translation     : Vol. 4, Book 32, Hadith 3551
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3551

https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3551

حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، قَالَ‏: ‏ حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، قَالَ‏: ‏ حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ هِلالٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بُرْدَةَ، قَالَ‏: ‏ أَخْرَجَتْ إِلَيْنَا عَائِشَةُ، كِسَاءً مُلَبَّدًا، وَإِزَارًا غَلِيظًا، فَقَالَتْ‏: ‏ قُبِضَ رُوحُ رَسُولِ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم، فِي هَذَيْنِ‏.‏

Abu Burda reported that his father said: “'A'isha (may Allah be well pleased with her) brought out to us a tangled garment and a coarse loincloth, then she said: ‘The spirit of Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was taken in these two'.”

Grade:     Sahih (Zubair `Aliza'i)

Ash-Shama'il Al-Muhammadiyah 118
https://sunnah.com/shamail:118

حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى، حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمَانُ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ الْمُغِيرَةِ - الْمَعْنَى - عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ هِلاَلٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بُرْدَةَ، قَالَ دَخَلْتُ عَلَى عَائِشَةَ - رضى الله عنها - فَأَخْرَجَتْ إِلَيْنَا إِزَارًا غَلِيظًا مِمَّا يُصْنَعُ بِالْيَمَنِ وَكِسَاءً مِنَ الَّتِي يُسَمُّونَهَا الْمُلَبَّدَةَ فَأَقْسَمَتْ بِاللَّهِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قُبِضَ فِي هَذَيْنِ الثَّوْبَيْنِ ‏.‏

Narrated Abu Burdah: I entered upon 'Aishah, and she brought a coarse lower garment that was manufactured in the Yemen and a patched garment called mulabbadah. She swore by Allah that the spirit of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was taken in these two clothes.

Sunan Abi Dawud 4036

Grade:

Sahih (Al-Albani)

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4036

 

3 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Hadith al-Kisa can bring noor to a house, then every house would be dark until 1700 AD. The fact of the matter is, we had a millennium of scholars, mystics, pious people, and martyrs who weren't reciting this, didn't bother even mentioning it anywhere, and it would be inappropriate to cast doubt on their piety or their clairvoyance based on such a late yardstick.

فَقالَ عَلِيٌّ لاِبِي: يَا رَسُولَ اللّه أَخْبِرْنِي مَا لِجُلُوسِنا

faqaala a'lee-yul li-abee : yaa rasoolal-laahi akh-bir-nee maa lijuloosinaa

Then Ali said to my father : "O Prophet (s) of Allah, tell me

 

هذَا تَحْتَ الْكِساءِ مِنَ الْفَضْلِ عِنْدَ اللّهُ

haad'aa tah'-tal-kisaaa-i minal-faz'-li i'ndal-laah

what significance has Allah given for getting together underneath this cloak ?"

 

فَقالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ:

faqaalan-nabee-yu s'al-lal-laaho a'lay-hi wa aaalihi:

The Prophet (s) replied :

 

وَالَّذِي بَعَثَنِي بِالْحَقِّ نَبِيَّاً

wal-lad'ee baa'thanee bi-h'aq-qi nabee-

"By Him who rightfully appointed me a Prophet (s)

 

وَاصْطَفانِي بِالرِّسالَةِ نَجِيّاً

yaw-was'-tafaanee bir-risaalati naj-jeea

and chose me a Messenger for the salvation of the mankind.

 

مَا ذُكِرَ خَبَرُنا هذَا فِي مَحْفِلٍ مِنْ مَحافِلِ

maa d'ukira khabarunaa haad'aa fee mah'-falim-mim-mah'aafili

whenever and wherever an assembly

 

أَهْلِ الاْرْضِ وَفِيهِ جَمْعٌ مِنْ شِيعَتِنا وَمُحِّبِينا

ah-lil-ar-z'i wa fee-hi jam-u'm-min shee-a'tinaa wa muh'-ib-bee-naa

of our followers and friends mention this event,

 

إِلاَّ وَنَزَلَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الرَّحْمَةُ

il-laa wa nazalat a'lay-himur-rah'-mah

Allah will bestow on them His Blessings and Mercy;

 

وَحَفَّتْ بِهِمُ الْمَلائِكَةُ وَاسْتَغْفَرَتْ لَهُمْ إِلى أَنْ يَتَفَرَّقُوا.

wa h'af-fat bihimu lamalaaa-ikah was-tagh-farat lahum ilaaa ay-yatafar-raqoo

angels will encircle them asking Allah the remission of their sins until the assembly disperses

 

فَقالَ عَلِيٌّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: إِذنْ وَاللّهِ فُزْنَا وَفازَ شِيعَتُنا وَرَبِّ الْكَعْبَةِ.

faqaala a'lee-yun a'lay-his-salaamu : id'aw-wal-laahi fuz-naa wa faaza shee-a'tunaa wa rab-bil-kaa'-bah

So Ali said : "Verily, by the Lord of Kabaa! we and our followers are the winners"

 

فَقالَ أَبِي رَسُولُ اللّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ:

faqaala abee rasoolul-laahi s'al-lal-laaho a'lay-hi wa aaalihi:

Then my father replied :

 

يَا عَلِيُّ وَالَّذِي بَعَثَنِي بِالْحَقِّ نَبِيّاً

yaa a'lee-yu wal-lad'ee baa'thanee bil-h'aq-qi nabee-yaw

"By Him who rightfully appointed me a Prophet

 

وَاصْطَفَانِي بِالرِّسالَةِ نَجِيّاً

was'-tafaanee bir-risaalati najee-ya

and chose me a Messenger for the salvation of the mankind,

 

مَا ذُكِرَ خَبَرُنا هذَا فِي مَحْفِلٍ مِنْ مَحَافِلِ أَهْلِ الاْرْضِ

ma d'ukira khabarunaa haad'aa fee mah'-falim-mim-mah'aafili ah-lil ar-z'i

whenever and wherever an assembly

 

وَفِيهِ جَمْعٌ مِنْ شِيعَتِنا وَمُحِبِّينا

wa fee-hi jam-u'm-min shee-a'tinaa wa muh'ib-bee-naa

our followers and friends mentions this event,

 

وَفِيهِمْ مَهْمُومٌ إِلاَّ وَفَرَّجَ اللّهُ هَمَّهُ

wa fee-him mah-moo-mun il-laa wa far-rajal-laaho ham-mahoo

there shall remain none grieved but Allah will remove his grief,

 

وَلاَ مَغْمُومٌ إِلاَّ وَكَشَفَ اللّهُ غَمَّهُ

walaa magh-moo-mun il-laa wa kashafal-laaho gham-mahoo

there shall remain none distressed but Allah will dispel his distress,

 

وَلاَ طالِبُ حاجَةٍ إِلاَّ وَقَضَى اللّهُ حاجَتَهُ.

wa laa t'aalibu h'aajatin il-laa wa qaz'al-laaho h'aajatah

there shall remain none wish-seeker but Allah will grant his wish."

 

فَقالَ عَلِيٌّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: إِذن وَاللّه فُزْنا وَسُعِدْنا وَكَذلِكَ شِيعَتُنا

faqaala a'lee-yun a'lay-his-salaamu id'aaw-wal-laahi fuz-naa wa sui'd-naa wa kad'aalika shee-atunaa

`Ali, peace be upon him, said, "Then, we have won and attained pleasure. I swear it by Allah. So have our adherents;

 

فازُوا وَسُعِدُوا فِي الدُّنْيا وَالاْخِرَةِ وَرَبِّ الْكَعْبَةِ.

faazoo wa sui'doo fid-dunyaa wal aaakhirati wa rab-bil-kaa'-bah

they have won and attained pleasure in this world and in the Hereafter. I swear it by the Lord of the Ka`bah."

 

اَللَّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ

allahumma salli ala muhammadin wa ali muhammad

O' Allāh send Your blessings on Muhammad and the family of Muhammad.

https://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, Qa'im said:

When he was alive, Ayatullah Bahjat was often quoted as having said that the elderly people will witness the reappearance of the Imam. He then passed away in 2009, and some people denied that he had actually said this. Whether he said it or not, our standard is not what this 21st century scholar says or doesn't say.

Salam source of quote is  someone who has claimed that he has heard it from  Ayatullah Bahjat (رضي الله عنه) which Ayatullah Bahjat quoted from his friend   when his friend visted  Imam Zaman (عليه السلام) so then his friend asked whether he will see reappearance or not so then Imam replied to his friend that even older people than you will see it which that speaker  has said  age of friend of Ayatollah Behjat was 62 years old !!!. 

source of story

https://www.aparat.com/v/Rutsc

 

 original speech of Ayatollah behjat

https://www.aparat.com/v/K0QtB

 

which at end of his speech he said that "Before the reappearance, the seditions become visible and the world will be filled with oppression and injustice ; which even Sunnis believe to this "

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، أَنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ عُبَيْدٍ، حَدَّثَهُمْ ح، وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ عَيَّاشٍ ح وَحَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ سُفْيَانَ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُوسَى، أَخْبَرَنَا زَائِدَةُ، ح وَحَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُوسَى، عَنْ فِطْرٍ، - الْمَعْنَى وَاحِدٌ - كُلُّهُمْ عَنْ عَاصِمٍ، عَنْ زِرٍّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ زَائِدَةُ فِي حَدِيثِهِ ‏"‏ لَطَوَّلَ اللَّهُ ذَلِكَ الْيَوْمَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ اتَّفَقُوا ‏"‏ حَتَّى يَبْعَثَ فِيهِ رَجُلاً مِنِّي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ أَوْ ‏"‏ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي وَاسْمُ أَبِيهِ اسْمَ أَبِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ زَادَ فِي حَدِيثِ فِطْرٍ ‏"‏ يَمْلأُ الأَرْضَ قِسْطًا وَعَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ ظُلْمًا وَجَوْرًا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَقَالَ فِي حَدِيثِ سُفْيَانَ ‏"‏ لاَ تَذْهَبُ أَوْ لاَ تَنْقَضِي الدُّنْيَا حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ الْعَرَبَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ لَفْظُ عُمَرَ وَأَبِي بَكْرٍ بِمَعْنَى سُفْيَانَ ‏.‏

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: 
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: If only one day of this world remained. Allah would lengthen that day (according to the version of Za'idah), till He raised up in it a man who belongs to me or to my family whose father's name is the same as my father's, who will fill the earth with equity and justice as it has been filled with oppression and tyranny (according to the version of Fitr). Sufyan's version says: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.
Abu Dawud said: The version of 'Umar and Abu Bakr is the same as that of Sufyan.

Sunan Abi Dawud 4282

Grade:     Sahih (Al-Albani)      صحيح   (الألباني)    حكم   :
Reference     : Sunan Abi Dawud 4283
In-book reference     : Book 38, Hadith 5
English translation     : Book 37, Hadith 4270
https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4282

 

 

Late Ayatollah Bahjat has been quoted as having said: "The aged ones of this era will witness the moment of the reappearance of the Imam of Time (atf)." What is your opinion concerning this saying of the late Ayatollah?

question

Late Ayatollah Bahjat has been quoted as having said: "The aged ones of this era will witness the moment of the reappearance of the Imam of Time (atf)." What is your opinion concerning this saying of the late Ayatollah?

Concise answer

We have enquired the office of late Ayatollah Bahjat about whether or not the Ayatollah had said those words and they denied that he had said them. Instead, His Eminence had said that whenever difficulties and hardship increase, then the time of reappearance is near. This saying by Ayatollah Bahjat is derived from a narration which says: "Before the reappearance, the seditions become visible and the world will be filled with oppression and injustice."

In addition, when it comes to fixing the time of the reappearance of the Imam of Time (may Allah hasten his reappearance), not only the time of his reappearance has not been fixed in the traditions but fixing time for his reappearance has been prohibited also. In fact, certain signs have been mentioned for the reappearance of the Imam of Time and it has been said that he will reappear when these signs become available.

Detailed Answer

In response to the foregoing question, we must mention a few points:

A) We have enquired the office of late Ayatollah Bahjat about whether or not the Ayatollah had said those words and they denied that he had said them. Instead, His Eminence had said that whenever difficulties and problems increase, then the time of reappearance is near[1]. This saying by Ayatollah Bahjat is derived from a narration which says: "Before the reappearance, the seditions become visible and the world will be filled with oppression and injustice."

B) When it comes to fixing the time of the reappearance of the Imam of Time (may Allah hasten his reappearance), not only the time of his reappearance has not been fixed in the traditions but fixing time for his reappearance has been prohibited also.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa1840

https://erfan.ir/english/77440.html

 

Ayatollah Behjat's son's account of this pious scholar; The story of Ayatollah Behjat's meeting with a man who had met with Imam Zaman

He added: "One day, we went with my father to the humble house of a man who was not in a good condition and was considered to be from a poor family.

It was the first time that my father went there. We arrived at that man's house without asking anyone for an address." It was very strange for me because whenever we wanted to go somewhere, my father would ask for directions several times to find the address, but that day we arrived directly at that man's house.

I was also busy in my childhood world. Later I noticed , that man was talking about his meeting with  Imam Zaman (A.J.) for  father, the meeting that happened the yesterday evening and the father was aware of this. This was very strange for us.

https://www.mehrnews.com/news/5489059/حکایت-ملاقات-آیت-الله-بهجت-با-مردی-که-با-امام-زمان-دیدار-کرده

Edited May 8 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

addendum

HEALTH AND HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS

The estimates confirm the trend for longevity: lifespans are getting longer.

Globally, life expectancy has increased by more than 6 years between 2000 and 2019 – from 66.8 years in 2000 to 73.4 years in 2019. While healthy life expectancy (HALE) has also increased by 8% from 58.3 in 2000 to 63.7, in 2019, this was due to declining mortality rather than reduced years lived with disability. In other words, the increase in HALE (5.4 years) has not kept pace with the increase in life expectancy (6.6 years). 

https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/themes/mortality-and-global-health-estimates/ghe-life-expectancy-and-healthy-life-expectancy

Quote

In 1900, the average life expectancy of a newborn was 32 years. By 2021 this had more than doubled to 71 years.

https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy

The 100-year life is here. How can we meet the challenges of longevity? An expert explains

This article is part of:The Davos Agenda

• Reductions in infant mortality, advances in sanitation and medicine, public education, and rising standards of living have brought forth a new era of longevity.
• Our social institutions, economic policies, and social norms haven’t evolved to keep up with these rapid changes.
• Martha Deevy explains why we need to start redesigning institutions, practices, and norms to align with today’s reality of a 100-year lifespan.

Realizing the opportunities of healthy longevity

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Over the last 200 years, people in all countries in the world achieved impressive progress in health that led to increases in life expectancy. We are now entering an unprecedented era of long lives. Most children in the developed world born since 2000 can expect to live up to 100 years and beyond. 

The Stanford Center on Longevity launched an initiative called The New Map of Life, believing that one of the most profound transformations of the human experience calls for equally momentous and creative changes in how we lead these 100-year lives. We spoke with Martha Deevy, Associate Director and Senior Research Scholar, Stanford Center on Longevity

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https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/01/the-100-year-life-is-here-how-can-we-meet-the-challenges-of-longevity-an-expert-explains/

Influences of Loneliness, Life Purpose, and Aging Satisfaction on Depression in Older US Adults: Analysis of 12-Year Longitudinal Data

• Original Article
• Published: 27 November 2023
• https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-023-01184-x
•  

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:06 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Also there are other discrepancies involved in the text as well; for instance, the earliest narrations tell us that the event took place in Umm Salama (sa) 's house, whereas the currently popular version shows it to have happened in Sayyida Zahra (sa)'s house. 

Salam In Arabic text of hadith entering of prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been mentioned in passive form but as common mistake in translation her house has been added as assumption of translator which at first line of popular version it has been said from Lady Fatima (sa) which prophet has been came to her which translator assumed that she has been in her house while no specific house  has been mentioned as place of incident which commuting Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to house of Umm Salam (sa) has been very common which  Umm Salama has been very welcoming toward them also only she has remained  only supporter of lady Fatima of after demise of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which she has  blamed Ayesha for uprising agains  Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  which also Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) has given trusties of Imamate to her before traveling to Kufa  which after his martyrdom Imam Sajjad received trusties of Imamate from her .

عَنْ فاطِمَةَ الزَّهْراءِ عَلَيْهَا اَلسلام بِنْتِ رَسُول ِاللّه صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ أَنَّها قالَتْ :

an faat'imataz-zah-raaa-i (alayhas-salaam) binti rasoolil-laahi (S) qaalat :(said)

Fatimatuz-Zahra, the daughter of the Prophet (s), peace be on them, is to have thus related ( an event ) :

قالَتْ qaalat :(said) is passive so then next sentence is passive too . 

دَخَلَ عَلَيَّ أَبِي رَسُولُ اللّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ فِي بَعْضِ الاْيَّامِ فَقالَ:

dakhala a'lay-ya abee rasoolul-laahi (S) fee baa'-z'il ay-yaami faqaala :

 

دَخَلَ عَلَيَّ أَبِي dakhala a'lay-ya abee this phrase is passives sentence which just indicates entering Prophet to her daughter in a house probably house of Umm Salam ; not to her house based assumption of translator.

https://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

Edited May 8 by Ashvazdanghe

[Qa'im]

Let's make it very, very simple:

• Bring me any reference to the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa that is commonly recited written before 1700 AD.
• Bring me any reference to the shrine of Khawla in Baalbek from before 1700 AD.
• Bring me any medieval reference (let's say prior to 1400 AD) to Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) even having a daughter named Khawla.
• Bring me any reference to a miraculous crack in the corner of the Ka'ba from before 1900 AD. Not just a hadith about the back wall of the Ka'ba opening and closing. I want to see any written reference by any Muslim about a miraculous crack that cannot be repaired and keeps reappearing on the corner of the Ka'ba.
• Bring me a reference to anyone before Ali b. Ahmad Abu'l Qasim al-Kufi (d. 963 AD) who believed that the Prophet's only daughter was Sayyida Fatima.

Unless and until you bring this evidence, parsing through your reasoning and your copy-pastes would be futile. We need to get into the meat and potatoes of this issue: are these beliefs and practices, which have a central role in popular Shiism today, simply absent from the written record for up to a millennium or more - and if yes, then why?

[Guest Guest]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Let's make it very, very simple:

• Bring me any reference to the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa that is commonly recited written before 1700 AD.

I have read most of your issues on this thread and the methodology you follow. I will make it even simpler. We are NOT looking at Akham for Prayer / fasting / zakat hajj rulings.

These are things beyond the normal level of investigations. They require much more than a simple fallible formulaic / newly minted methodology ( which is ever evolving and can be restricted or expanded  based on bias or agenda.). 

Produce one like it. Humans and jinns were to collaborate together they won't be able to bring a Ziayarat Ashura or The Version Of hadith Kissa Attributed to Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa), the one recited in ALL or most of our happy events.

If you can't produce one like it. Listen / participate / in the Event where this blessing is recited or not is your call. 

[EiE]

3 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Bring me any reference to a miraculous crack in the corner of the Ka'ba from before 1900 AD. Not just a hadith about the back wall of the Ka'ba opening and closing. I want to see any written reference by any Muslim about a miraculous crack that cannot be repaired and keeps reappearing on the corner of the Ka'ba

Where did the story about the crack start and why? Do you know where the crack comes from?

[Qa'im]

19 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

I have read most of your issues on this thread and the methodology you follow. I will make it even simpler. We are NOT looking at Akham for Prayer / fasting / zakat hajj rulings.

These are things beyond the normal level of investigations. They require much more than a simple fallible formulaic / newly minted methodology ( which is ever evolving and can be restricted or expanded  based on bias or agenda.). 

Produce one like it. Humans and jinns were to collaborate together they won't be able to bring a Ziayarat Ashura or The Version Of hadith Kissa Attributed to Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa), the one recited in ALL or most of our happy events.

If you can't produce one like it. Listen / participate / in the Event where this blessing is recited or not is your call. 

Firstly, I never mentioned Ziyarat Ashura. I am talking only about beliefs and practices that arose in the early modern period. Ziyarat Ashura is ancient and therefore passes this simple test.

Secondly: if your argument is that Hadith al-Kisa is authentic because it is inimitable (like the Quran), then it is a miracle. Why would a miracle be left out of the written record until the 1700s? Who was the first person to argue that Hadith al-Kisa is authentic because it is a miraculous text? Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani never claimed it was inimitable or miraculous.  The Quran has a claim of inimitability in its text itself, and its inimitability has been confirmed by scholars of the Arabic language, both Muslim and non-Muslim. No one can produce another Quran, but we have countless du'as and ziyarat that are similar to Hadith al-Kisa and yet are completely neglected by our community. Why not recite one of those instead?

There is no "simple fallible formulaic biased newly minted methodology" here. I'm not using any kind of rijal here either. This is a very simple test of whether our beliefs and practices come from the modern period or not.

[root]

Wow, this escalated fast....

[root]

Btw, you guys do realise that a lot of our sources got either burnt and destroyed or stolen by the different enemies at different times right? Expecting to have sources dating back 1400 years for everything is kind of silly. Many of our duas and stories and such are oral traditions and yes they might not have stayed 100% original, but then again nothing but the Quran is 100%.

If your faith in the wilayah of Ali is based on a crack in a wall, then that faith is as fragile as that same crack. Make sure you teach your children correctly.

[Qa'im]

7 hours ago, root said:

Btw, you guys do realise that a lot of our sources got either burnt and destroyed or stolen by the different enemies at different times right? Expecting to have sources dating back 1400 years for everything is kind of silly. Many of our duas and stories and such are oral traditions and yes they might not have stayed 100% original, but then again nothing but the Quran is 100%.

If your faith in the wilayah of Ali is based on a crack in a wall, then that faith is as fragile as that same crack. Make sure you teach your children correctly.

Yes, many books were lost and destroyed. However:

1. Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani did not claim to have gotten this hadith from a lost book. He claimed to have gotten it from a 1,100 year long chain I mentioned earlier.

2. Most of the books that were lost/destroyed were gone by the 1200s (Mongol invasion) and prior. For such a hadith to survive another ~500 years without being mentioned is again very unlikely.

3. A hadith this valuable being left out of every important and unimportant book, by every major and minor scholar, including the likes of al-Kafi and even Bihar al-Anwar (which is a library of everything available to the Safavids up to that point in time), is very unlikely.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the near impossible happened, and this hadith did survive orally for a millennium completely intact. There are tens of thousands of other hadiths, du'as, and ziyarat, whose reliability can be much better supported, for us to put this specific one at the very top.

[root]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Yes, many books were lost and destroyed. However:

1. Abdullah b. Nurullah al-Bahrani did not claim to have gotten this hadith from a lost book. He claimed to have gotten it from a 1,100 year long chain I mentioned earlier.

2. Most of the books that were lost/destroyed were gone by the 1200s (Mongol invasion) and prior. For such a hadith to survive another ~500 years without being mentioned is again very unlikely.

3. A hadith this valuable being left out of every important and unimportant book, by every major and minor scholar, including the likes of al-Kafi and even Bihar al-Anwar (which is a library of everything available to the Safavids up to that point in time), is very unlikely.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the near impossible happened, and this hadith did survive orally for a millennium completely intact. There are tens of thousands of other hadiths, du'as, and ziyarat, whose reliability can be much better supported, for us to put this specific one at the very top.

Are you talking avout the wall crack? Then yes, i agree. I don't even understand what the problem is. No one disagrees with Imam Ali being born in Kabaa.

 

When it comes to hadith or certain information in general surviving orally only, isn't that unlikely considering the different phases shias have been through. I also have no idea how true this is, but it seems that it is true that there is a "vault" of stolen shia books, both in Israel and Britain. Books stolen over many years and hidden because it has "juicy" information. So i don't think it's just the Mongols, but over the years when we were weak, they took thing from us that we no longer can get to. This of course, is not a very academic claim, because there is no proof, it's a matter of statistical possibility. 

[Qa'im]

3 hours ago, root said:

Are you talking avout the wall crack? Then yes, i agree. I don't even understand what the problem is. No one disagrees with Imam Ali being born in Kabaa.

 

When it comes to hadith or certain information in general surviving orally only, isn't that unlikely considering the different phases shias have been through. I also have no idea how true this is, but it seems that it is true that there is a "vault" of stolen shia books, both in Israel and Britain. Books stolen over many years and hidden because it has "juicy" information. So i don't think it's just the Mongols, but over the years when we were weak, they took thing from us that we no longer can get to. This of course, is not a very academic claim, because there is no proof, it's a matter of statistical possibility. 

I was referring to the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa. But a miraculous crack in the Kaaba would have to be held to an even higher standard, because almost every Muslim makes Hajj, and miracles are a bigger claim than a hadith about a historical event.

[syed786]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:06 PM, Qa'im said:

Let's make it very, very simple:

• Bring me any reference to the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa that is commonly recited written before 1700 AD.
• Bring me any reference to the shrine of Khawla in Baalbek from before 1700 AD.
• Bring me any medieval reference (let's say prior to 1400 AD) to Imam Husayn (عليه السلام) even having a daughter named Khawla.
• Bring me any reference to a miraculous crack in the corner of the Ka'ba from before 1900 AD. Not just a hadith about the back wall of the Ka'ba opening and closing. I want to see any written reference by any Muslim about a miraculous crack that cannot be repaired and keeps reappearing on the corner of the Ka'ba.
• Bring me a reference to anyone before Ali b. Ahmad Abu'l Qasim al-Kufi (d. 963 AD) who believed that the Prophet's only daughter was Sayyida Fatima.

Unless and until you bring this evidence, parsing through your reasoning and your copy-pastes would be futile. We need to get into the meat and potatoes of this issue: are these beliefs and practices, which have a central role in popular Shiism today, simply absent from the written record for up to a millennium or more - and if yes, then why?

Salaamun alaikum wa rahmatullah.

My first post on here in over a decade!

I completely agree with what you have posited on this thread so far Br Qaim. You've respectfully and clearly articulated your concerns with elements of populist contemporary Shiaism, and implored your brethren to unite on truth and not on mystery, myth or whims. Unless someone can bring the evidences you have requested (which is impossible as they do not exist) we are at an impasse here and the readers of the thread can make their own judgements.

I hope the readers can also see that when it comes to important doctrinal texts such as Hadith Al Kisa, no one is dare saying to abandon them, but rather what is being encouraged is academic honesty. Scrutiny towards theological positions is never going to go away but we can improve our resilience (collectively I hope).        

[guest 2025]

I have a program that changes my laptop's wallpaper to a random image from a file of pictures I've collected.

Today I happened to read this thread, and the wallpaper happened to be this.

 

I agree. I notice a disturbing trend where people are trying to delegitimize aspects of our faith. One person said tawassul is haram, another time I hear Mafatih al Jinan isn't legit, X ziyarah is fake, Dua Kumail is fake, much of Nahjulbalagha is fake, now Hadith Kisa is weak? What's left then?

There's some people who are even starting to say Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wasn't infallible. Now the Prophet had more than one daughter? What's next? Imam Ali didn't actually lift the door? Imam Abbas wasn't martyred? It's always something new. 

It's like they're intentionally trying to go after what is sacred. I know they're not but what a terrible trick of the devil to fall into. This isn't normal skepticism or reasonable doubt. It's like me telling you your mom isn't actually your mom. I mean how would you know for sure? You could have been adopted. Yeah you look like her but maybe she's actually your aunt. Did you get a DNA test? You can't definitively tell me she's your mom unless you provide a DNA test right now. Oh you don't have one? Guess she's not 100% your mom then. You're telling me that your aunts and uncles and grandparents and dad all vouch that she's your mom? Well I know that they're reasonable and trustworthy people but that isn't really evidence that this woman is actually your mom. 

 

What nonsense. I refuse to get on this slippery slope.

[Qa'im]

17 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

I agree. I notice a disturbing trend where people are trying to delegitimize aspects of our faith. One person said tawassul is haram, another time I hear Mafatih al Jinan isn't legit, X ziyarah is fake, Dua Kumail is fake, much of Nahjulbalagha is fake, now Hadith Kisa is weak? What's left then?

There's some people who are even starting to say Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wasn't infallible. Now the Prophet had more than one daughter? What's next? Imam Ali didn't actually lift the door? Imam Abbas wasn't martyred? It's always something new. 

It's like they're intentionally trying to go after what is sacred. I know they're not but what a terrible trick of the devil to fall into. This isn't normal skepticism or reasonable doubt. It's like me telling you your mom isn't actually your mom. I mean how would you know for sure? You could have been adopted. Yeah you look like her but maybe she's actually your aunt. Did you get a DNA test? You can't definitively tell me she's your mom unless you provide a DNA test right now. Oh you don't have one? Guess she's not 100% your mom then. You're telling me that your aunts and uncles and grandparents and dad all vouch that she's your mom? Well I know that they're reasonable and trustworthy people but that isn't really evidence that this woman is actually your mom. 

 

What nonsense. I refuse to get on this slippery slope.

The assumptions here are (1) that those who are skeptical are being hyperskeptical, ie questioning things just for the sake of questioning, and (2) that everything from tawassul, to Hadith al-Kisa', to Du`a' Kumayl, to Nahj al-Balagha, to the `isma of Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), to the martyrdom of Abu Fadl al-`Abbas are all of equal weight, value, and authenticity. That's a category error.

This latter point is a big problem. The assumption is that, if you don't subscribe to the latest, most cultural, most flamboyant, most sensationalist expression of Shiism, then you are denying the foundations of Shiism. That's like saying, if you deny the Flat Earth conspiracy, then you deny that there is an Earth at all. The slippery slope in this example is a fallacy.

Something like Hadith al-Thaqalayn or Ghadir, for example, has exponentially more weight than the idea that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is the only daughter of the Prophet (s). There is a long list of scholars on page 1 who believed in 4 daughters that never ever even questioned Thaqalayn or Ghadir - the sky is blue.

28 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

What's left then?

The actual teachings and practice of Ahl al-Bayt, aka the whole point of Shiism to begin with. If we want to follow forgeries, then there are plenty of other religions to choose from.

[guest 2025]

47 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

The assumptions here are (1) that those who are skeptical are being hyperskeptical, ie questioning things just for the sake of questioning, and (2) that everything from tawassul, to Hadith al-Kisa', to Du`a' Kumayl, to Nahj al-Balagha, to the `isma of Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), to the martyrdom of Abu Fadl al-`Abbas are all of equal weight, value, and authenticity. That's a category error.

This latter point is a big problem. The assumption is that, if you don't subscribe to the latest, most cultural, most flamboyant, most sensationalist expression of Shiism, then you are denying the foundations of Shiism. That's like saying, if you deny the Flat Earth conspiracy, then you deny that there is an Earth at all. The slippery slope in this example is a fallacy.

Something like Hadith al-Thaqalayn or Ghadir, for example, has exponentially more weight than the idea that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is the only daughter of the Prophet (s). There is a long list of scholars on page 1 who believed in 4 daughters that never ever even questioned Thaqalayn or Ghadir - the sky is blue.

The actual teachings and practice of Ahl al-Bayt, aka the whole point of Shiism to begin with. If we want to follow forgeries, then there are plenty of other religions to choose from.

Before the forces of evil target the foundations of our faith first they have to attack the smaller things.

This is speculation, but I think the purpose of this hyperskepticism is only apparent if we take a step back and look at things more broadly. It's not to cast doubt on a particular dua or ziyarah, it's take away from the scholars and their consensus.

Like the OP said, it's a trend. It's not that these pieces are being questioned in a vacuum, this is an attitude. 

Edited May 26 by guest 2025

[Qa'im]

1 minute ago, guest 2025 said:

Before the forces of evil target the foundations of our faith first they have to attack the smaller things.

This is speculation, but I think the purpose of this hyperskepticism is only apparent if we take a step back and look at things more broadly. It's not to cast doubt on a particular dua or ziyarah, it's take away from the scholars and their consensus.

In the case of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), the scholarly consensus was actually that the Prophet (s) had four daughters, so this is a case of the populace attacking the consensus without sufficient evidence. Four daughters were mentioned by the Safir of the 12th Imam, Kulayni, Mufid, Murtada, Tusi, Tabarsi, Ibn Shahr Ashub, Shahid al-Thani, Fayd Kashani, Majlisi, Mazandarani, Kashif al-Ghita', `Abbas al-Qummi, Ali Shariati, Ja`far Subhani, etc. etc.

[Guest Guest]

If there were other alleged daughters or adopted daughters ( none survived ) as the other narrative goes-it has political / religious bases- namely the marriage of one or two to a certain individual who was a high profile figure in the opponents view, even with all his acknowledged shortcomings-  this marriage narrative is positive- for political/religious  reasons. So, they propagate it. 

In any event. As far as me as a person is concerned. 

1) Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny) had one Biological Daughter.(The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa))

2) There is only one Sayyidat Nisa' al-Alamin (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

3) There is only one at the time of the revelation of the Verse of Purification (Verse 33:33 ). (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

4) There is only one who is the central figure in the Hadith Al- Kissa ( The Hadith of the Cloak).(The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

5) There is only one who is part of the Event of al-Mubahala ( Verse 3:61) , (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

6) The only one who is referred in Surrah al-Kawthar. (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

7) The only one referred as the part of me by Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny), is (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

8) The only one who is a infallible role model to the women of the ummah , (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

9) The one married to Maula Ali(عليه السلام), (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

10) The one who is the source of the infallible Imams(عليه السلام), (The Martyred Sayyeda Fatima Zahra(sa)).

I can go on as a layman but I will stop here due to my lack of knowledge and can't do justice to this topic.

However, the one who is the source of All the Sadaats ( The Sayyids / Sayyeds / Syeds) The progeny of Muhammad Al- Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure Progeny), there are millions of them today As per the Promise in Surah Kawthar. 

So, the question is, why the quest?