New trend amongst younger Shia to challenge long held beliefs

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/28/2024 at 9:53 PM, Qa'im said:

other issues: (here is your trigger warning) (1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech has no ancient sources, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent,

Salam this due that you have not consider situation of their eras which for centuries their opponents have tried to censor or even totally erase  this speech & Hadith from from whole of history because some valuable ancient Shia books which  has these two in them have been destroyed or hidden in their  private libraries by opponents of Shia Imams & muslims which for example Allamah Amini for collecting sources for book of Al-Ghadir & in similar fashion Ayatollah  Mar'ashi Najafi for founding his library  have had to travel to multiple countries in order to find only remaining ancient source which sometimes only has been available in private collection of an opponent of Shias so therefore they have done great effort for making a secret copy or buying these books  in astronomical price which after founding their library from these sources in Najaf & Qom these two libraries have became major libraries for all Shia scholar resercher while in era some naive people  think because such valuable sources after centuries  have gathered in these  libraries after great sacrifices so then can deny existence of ancient sources about this speech & hadith or call it from very recent because sources of verification of these have been found after great sacrifices of people likewise  Allamah Amini  & Ayatollah  Mar'ashi Najafi  so then we have easy access to their legacy can express such nonsense . 

15 hours ago, EiE said:

details on 1, 2

for Example 

While collecting due hadiths and documents required to write his book on the Ghadir Incident, 'Allama Amini visited many libraries in the Muslim world. The largest library of Najaf at his time had just 4ooo books, and this very shortcoming made him establish a large library in this city.^[14] In the year 1373 AH/ 1953-4 CE, at the age of 53, he began collecting the needed book.

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Amir al-Mu'menin Library

The public library of Amir al-Mu'menin in Najaf was inaugurated on the 18th of DhulHijja 1379 AH/June 13, 1960 CE by 'Allama Amini and at the presence of some of the leading figures of the Shi'a Seminary of Najaf, including Agha Buzurg Tehrani. This library included 42,000 books in different languages, of which there were about 4,000 manuscripts, 400 photographic copies, and 750 film copies.^[12] 'Allama Amini, the founder of it, has donated all the books of his personal library – which were around five to six thousand books – to the Amir al-Mu'menin Library. His son, Muhammad Hadi, has given away 1,000 of his personal books to this library.^[13]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abd_al-Husayn_Amini

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Ayatollah Mar'ashi Najafi

Library

Main article: Ayatollah Mar'ashi Najafi Library

Ayatollah Mar'ashi Najafi started the collection of his library when he was studying in Najaf. He bought some of the manuscripts of the collection with nightly working after his classes and saving in the expenses of his life. He has noted how he had bought every book in its cover. For example one of the notes is:

The book Kashf al-lugha wa l-istilahat is written by 'Abd al-Rahim b. Ahmad al-Hindi al-Bahari, by the request of his son al-Shaykh Shihab al-Din al-Bahari in 1160/1747, and the writer had passed away a little after writing the book. I bought the book with the income of saying prayers of two years on the behalf of Mirza Muhammad Bazzaz Tihrani, for 20 Britain rupees. May God succeeds us. I, the heartbroken writer of this words, am passing this moments in hunger and couldn't find any food for 20 hours, may God solves all the troubles. Shihab al-Din al-Husyani al-Mar'ashi al-Najafa, 1342/1923-4, Qawam school, one of the schools of the city of my great grandfather, Imam 'Ali (my soul be sacrificed for him).^[1]

After his immigration to Iran, his book collection also was moved to Iran, and he was keeping them in his house, and adding other copies to the collection. After the foundation of Mar'ashiyya school in 1385/1965-6, he made a library in two rooms of the school

 

Nowadays, the library is the first library in Iran and the third in the Islamic world, in terms of the number and the quality of the old Islamic manuscripts. Now around 80,000 manuscripts and more than one million printed books is available in the library.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sayyid_Shihab_al-Din_Mar'ashi_Najafi

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Qa'im said:

every time the kiswa is changed every year.

During the rule of the Fatimids in the 12th century, Cairo was responsible for the construction of the covering of the Kaaba. Special workshops were set up to make the Kiswa, and once it was completed, it was carried on camels, guarded by a group of soldiers, until it arrived safely in Mecca.

Before the curtain left the Kaaba in Cairo, people would gather in the streets to visit it.

Egypt had the role of making the curtain of the Kaaba until 1962, when it was transferred to Saudi Arabia. Today, a number of workshops where the Kaaba curtain was made still exist in Cairo.

Sobhi Saleh al-Tayeb, 80 years old, is one of the last people who was involved in the construction of the Kiswa of Kaaba in Cairo. Al-Tayeb says he first started working with his father when he was 15 years old.

"It's a profession I used to love and it was a great honor to be involved in building something for the Holy Kaaba," he told Middle East Eye. He added: We were working on it with full belief and what we were doing was distinctive.

His workshop operated for more than a century and at its peak employed more than 100 artisans.

According to al-Tayeb, about 60 people were working in Cairo during the year to build the  Kiswa of Kaaba.

Today, he works for international exhibitions where he displays smaller versions of the Kiswa of Kaaba  and other textiles and wall hangings with Arabic script. His works have been exhibited in Indonesia and Persian Gulf countries.

Sobhi also produced a mural for the Sultan of Brunei, which was made from the door of the Kaaba.

Today, the old workshops in Cairo are used to make miniature versions of the Kaaba'Kiswa and other forms of decorative embroidery. Orders are sent from all over the world, including Russia and the Persian Gulf countries, to decorate homes and institutions.

The process of making the Kiswa of the Kaaba is long and detailed. Traditionally in Egypt, the curtain of the Kaaba was first made by mapping designs onto transparent paper that was punched and placed over wool. Then ink was sprinkled on the transparent paper and the workers sewed the place with gold thread.

Yaser Mohammad, 50 years old, works in Al-Tayeb's workshop and says that making the curtain of the Kaaba is not an easy task. "It's hard for this generation to learn how to do it because it takes a lot of patience," he says.

In the National Museum of Egyptian Civilization, located in Fustat, old samples of Kaaba curtains are displayed. This museum, which was opened in 2021, includes works from all over ancient Egypt as well as works from the pharaonic, Coptic and Islamic eras.

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https://fararu.com/fa/news/643529/تصاویر-کارگاهی-که-سال‌ها-پرده-خانه-خدا-را-می‌دوخت

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/28/2024 at 9:53 PM, Qa'im said:

Things like Nadi `Ali and Khutbatul Bayan are also very late, (7)

Salam Nadi Ali has been made by unknown sunni lovers of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) likewise their poems about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) however because it has not any contardiction with holy Quran & rationality so therefore it has been accepted between Shia muslims . 

Khutbatul Bayan also has been considers as fabrication & forgery of Ghulat b& Sufis by some of Shia scholars . 

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The source and document of the sermon, which is known today as the sermon of al-Bayan, is not found in Nahj al-Balaghah and other old Shiite sources. According to the author of the article Khutba al-Bayan and Shat'hiyat Arefanخطبة البیان و شطحیات عارفان, some of the phrases of this khutba are found in older sources such as Basair al-Darrajat and Rizal Kashi and Kafi, and some of its passages are cited in Manaqib Ibn Shahrashoob under the name of Khutba al-Iftakhar, which is very similar to the Bayan khutba. [2] But according to Mustafa Sadeghi, none of the specific expressions of this sermon are found in previous sources and the creators of this sermon actually used the expressions of the predecessors to complete their work.[3]

In the section on the characteristics of Amir al-Mu'minin, phrases are used in the text of the sermon, which caused some Shiite scholars to consider this sermon indefensible in terms of content. In this section, attributes are attributed to Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) that cannot be seen in other hadith texts, and according to some hadith scholars such as Allameh Majlisi, examples of these interpretations can be seen in the books of Ghulat.[1]

In the description of the characteristics of the end of time, this sermon emphasizes the spread of corruption and people's distance from religious phenomena.

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/خطبة_البیان

On 4/28/2024 at 9:53 PM, Qa'im said:

Common hadiths used like "Love of the nation is from faith (hub al-watan min al-iman)" are probably fabrications,

A Study of the Hadith âPatriotism is a sign of faith

نویسنده [English]

• Mortazā Rahimi [writer]

چکیده [English] [abstract]

Homeland has been always the focus of attention. In Islam some verses and traditions speak of patriotism and love for one’s country, and one such tradition is the famous saying attributed to the Prophet, peace be upon him and his household, that “Patriotism is a sign of faith.” This sentence has attracted the attention of the Muslim scholars. The problem of explaining the relationship between faith and love for one’s country has led the Sunni scholars to contend that the hadith is fake. On the other hand, many Shii and Sunni scholars have offered different meanings for homeland, such as paradise, one’s origin, and the Islamic land and thus tried to solve the problem of the meaning of the statement. Even if we admit that the hadith is fake and there is no way to explain the meaning of the statement, the permission to love one’s country which may be inferred from verses and traditions is accepted by the Shii and Sunni scholars. On the other hand, the Shii scholars on the basis of this statement have concluded the possibility of loving one’s country, etc. The present article analyses the statement in question from three perspectives of evidence, meaning, and jurisprudence

https://s-hadith.kashanu.ac.ir/article_111113.html

Quote

Also in similar fashion globalists consider everything about praising patriotism as fake too 

Below thread is about correlation between Shintoism & Japanese patritism & Islam

 

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 4/28/2024 at 8:37 AM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Sorry this is what I meant. That the Prophet having multiple daughters is a "Sunni" belief. This is nonsense. Shi'i scholars from the beginning have mentioned him having multiple daughters.

 

On 4/28/2024 at 8:42 AM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Because she is his greatest daughter, and her preference over this others is explained in this tradition which was authentically narrated from the ambassador of the Imam of our time (عليه السلام).

And one of the theologians asked him (i.e. Shaykh al-Hasan b. Ruh رضي الله عنه) – and he is known by Tirk al-Harawi(?) – so he said to him: How many daughters did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم have? So he said: Four. He said: So which of them is preferred? So he said: Fatima. So he said: And why did she become preferred while she was the youngest of them in age and the one from them to spend the least amount of time in the company of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم?! He said: For having two special traits, which Allah characterized her by, favouring her and conferring her honour and respect. One of them is that she inherited from the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, and none other than her inherited from his children; and the other is that Allah maintained the progeny of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم from her and it did not remain from other than her. And He did not qualify her with that except due to the virtue of sincerity which He had distinguished of her intention. 

al-Harawi said: And I have not seen a person speak and answer regarding this subject by [anything] better nor more concise [to the point] than his answer. (Tusi’s Ghayba) 

(sahih) (صحيح)

Like I said, the opinion that the Prophet (saww) had multiple daughters was mentioned by Al-Mufid (rah), Al-Tusi (rah), Al-Murtadha (rah), and modern scholars aswell. And the words of the Ambassador of the Imam (عليه السلام) should be enough.

 

On 4/28/2024 at 11:53 PM, Qa'im said:

Here is a book on the subject: https://archive.org/details/HowManyDaughtersDidTheProphetHave

I'm not too young and I pray that Allah removes any arrogance from me, but Shiism should ultimately be about pursuing truth rather than simply defending a culture. A lot of energy is spent defending beliefs and practice that are either palpably untrue and harmful, or may just technically be allowed according to a set of arguments. What our forefathers believed has no bearing on our salvation.

Will someone be punished for believing that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is the only daughter of the Messenger of Allah (s)? Probably not. But does the proliferation of such a belief make us look ahistorical, close-minded, insincere, and perhaps even cult-like? Absolutely.

The same goes for many other issues: (here is your trigger warning) (1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech has no ancient sources, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent, (3) the shrines of Khawla, Abu Lu'lu', Shahrbanu, and Mazar Sharif aren't real, (4) we know where Sayyida Fatima's grave is, (5) the third shahada in adhan was popularized in the Safavid period, (6) Things like Nadi `Ali and Khutbatul Bayan are also very late, (7) Common hadiths used like "Love of the nation is from faith (hub al-watan min al-iman)" are probably fabrications, (8) the crack in the Ka'ba is not related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), etc. etc.

People can feel free to believe in all these things, but you'd be practicing a ~300 year old religion. Personally, I want to practice the school of Ahl al-Bayt. Not just things that may technically be harmless, or can technically be done if practiced in exactly the right way. I'm trying to understand what they believed and practiced, and I'd rather not waste my time with obvious forgeries.

Excellent points brought forth by both of the brothers here. 

One need not look very far; even if one were to go through the first three volumes of the Al-Kafi Shareef (the 'Usool Al-Kafi') and look at the writings of the classical scholars such as Shaykh Saduq (rh) and Shaykh Mufeed (rh), one will be surprised how far away popular Shiism has moved from what the religious culture of the Shi'a was in the time of the Imams (ams) and in the Minor Occupational of the Imam (aj) soon afterwards. 

Acquaintance with our actual classical heritage will be nothing short of shock therapy for much of our laity, so huge is the gap between classical Shiism and the popular Shiism of today, dispensed from the pulpits and popular lore. It will be a crude shock to many to see that many of the hills that they are willing to die on have absolutely no basis in the works of the qudama (a.rh).

The 'Four Daughters' controversy, some disturbing aza' rituals and some of the obscurely- sourced popular maqtal narratives are only the tip of the iceberg; things have come to such a stage that even scholars and shrine administrations are having a hard time reining these wayward tendencies in. On the contrary, many of the beliefs which were fairly mainstream (to the point of being Mutawatir in transmission) during the time of the qudama are now looked upon as some strange fringe belief. Look no further than the contemporary 'shoor' controversy in the atabat of Iraq. 

Those who dare dissent against the popular narrative are branded 'Muqassirs' and ostracized. What is sadder is that some of our Muammimeen are complicit in spreading and strengthening these wayward tendencies and beliefs, instead of combating them, as is their duty. At the risk of sounding irreverent- so many hawza graduates, yet so few of them actually fit for their job. 

الله مستعان

Edited April 30 by AbdusSibtayn

[realizm]

23 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Unfortunately, just because many people in Baalbek believe that a daughter of Husayn

Not mentioning the area is litterally full of maqams attributed to awliya and prophets, whose authenticity go from dubious to totally supersticious.

Not far from there is a village called 'Nabi `Othman' meaning they actually raised the status of a local to that of prophet. I guess at least they are not shia... But in shia villages we also find shrines of Nabi this-and-that.

As far as Sayida Khawla is concerned :

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I understand your point anyway even She has not buried there but it has a symbolical meaning which people are worshiping Allah & follow undistorted traditions without committing Shirk or something likewise that likewise rest of replicas of Imam Bargahs .

It was not that of a problem when locals went to an old stone and cement house and prayed to Allah and wept there for ahl el beit (s) with nothing more in mind than what they had been told by the ancestors : a hashemi caravan, a dying child, a millenial tree planted by Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) and a few other stories no one could really prove or deny.

It became problematic when in the 90s the story - and with it the structure of the building - became consolidated, and a few years after a golden dome and minarets were erected to make it a religious attraction known outside of Lebanon, with a whole narrative and what seems to be validated sources, that any shia should now believe as authentic.

It is like 'well, even though we were not 100% sure, we've spent so many on this shrine to make it big, why would one deny the narrative now?'

Edited April 30 by realizm

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, realizm said:

with a whole narrative and what seems to be validated sources, that any shia should now believe as authentic.

Salam such speculation is totally wrong which there is no obligation about believing to this between Shia Muslims .

13 hours ago, realizm said:

Not mentioning the area is litterally full of maqams attributed to awliya and prophets, whose authenticity go from dubious to totally supersticious.

Not far from there is a village called 'Nabi `Othman' meaning they actually raised the status of a local to that of prophet. I guess at least they are not shia... But in shia villages we also find shrines of Nabi this-and-that.

for dealing with it in Iran a special committee has been founded in order to qualifies scholars in this matter verify authenticity of claims about these places instead of relying on local sagas or statements of some individuals . 

13 hours ago, realizm said:

It became problematic when in the 90s the story - and with it the structure of the building - became consolidated, and a few years after a golden dome and minarets were erected to make it a religious attraction known outside of Lebanon

it's still definition of a mosque around a blessed place which apparent things likewise   a golden dome and minarets is common between all worshiping places .

[realizm]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam such speculation is totally wrong which there is no obligation about believing to this between Shia Muslims .

for dealing with it in Iran a special committee has been founded in order to qualifies scholars in this matter verify authenticity of claims about these places instead of relying on local sagas or statements of some individuals . 

Brother, you may ignore some issues as an Iranian living in Iran, but you need to understand that many people, in our case Lebanese people, have a cultural heritage and a social structure, for which they do not need Iran to intervene, be it for validation or refutation. 

You probably know that Iranian influence expanded, amongst other things, by 'Iranisation' (of Islamic beliefs, of social organisations, etc.) Shrines are a well known example, with famous examples in Syria Iraq and Lebanon - all iran-funded, the most famous and successful being that of Sayida Zaynab (عليه السلام) in Damascus, and others like that of Salman al Farsi (r) which was detonated by Daesh I think.

Khawla's shrine is one example. I may not be far from the truth by saying your committee of scholars came to the conclusions that probablity of her existence was 50-50%, yet they decided that 'for the benefit of local tashayu`' expanding her shrine and make it a 'Little Zaynab' would be worth  spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. Again, based on a 50-50% probabilty. 

And that's something locals may not particularly like. Having money coming from you do not know turning a place that was for centuries a very simple place that your aunt would take you to, to a golden temple located in the midst of traffic jams of a chaotic neighbourhood where local infrastructure is totally abandoned because of corruption is seen as an attempt to throw sparkles to the eyes of people when you are actually exploiting them.

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

it's still definition of a mosque around a blessed place which apparent things likewise   a golden dome and minarets is common between all worshiping places

Of course we do not deny it falls under the definition of a mosque. But you know, again as an Iranian you may see things through a prism which other do not share. In Lebanon for example, mosques used to be made of rocks or recently cement, with mostly octogonal minarets like you would see in Fatimid Egypt. Tiled or golden minarets and domes are Iranian things which do not fit local heritage. 

It's actually funny because in 2005 I think, they first had covered Khawla's shrine with tiles only. It was beautiful, even though the persian style was very pronounced. 5 years later I went back and discovered a full gold place, I would even say it is too shiny for the eyes and looks fake.

To make you understand my point here is an example of Ras al Hussein mosque (عليه السلام), located a few miles away only, which is maybe in the state where Khawla's shrine was before its first renovation works. Notice how it actually gives more credit to the historical and archeological history of the mosque, than a brand new, pilgrim-friendly place with a`lams and Ziyara warith or Jami`a kabira everywhere on the walls.

 

Here another local shia mosque named Masjid as salam which was renovated based on the old codes. See how it fits the local scene. That's what people used to know there. 

I could go on... I remember posting a pic of Sayida Zeinab's shrine (عليه السلام) 120 years ago, it was nothing like we know today.

Just understand brother that since it is this way in Iran, it does not have to be the same way abroad. I am sure many Imamzadehs around Iran have no historical basis but they are so emphasized by the authorities through centuries they have become pillars of beliefs in some places.

[Abu_Zahra]

@realizmfantastic post brother,  very interesting insights 

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, realizm said:

You probably know that Iranian influence expanded, amongst other things, by 'Iranisation' (of Islamic beliefs, of social organisations, etc.) Shrines are a well known example, with famous examples in Syria Iraq and Lebanon - all iran-funded, the most famous and successful being that of Sayida Zaynab (عليه السلام) in Damascus, and others like that of Salman al Farsi (r) which was detonated by Daesh I think.

I knew that your intention is not about Islamic heritage but on the other hand just opposing Iran & calling everything as intervention of Iran in affairs  of others as common pan Arab rhetoric in these regions based propaganda of Wahabi sympathizers in these regions which even some Shias likewise you have been affected with their anti Iran propaganda .

 

Iran 

10 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

@realizmfantastic post brother,  very interesting insights 

 

14 hours ago, realizm said:

Just understand brother that since it is this way in Iran, it does not have to be the same way abroad. I am sure many Imamzadehs around Iran have no historical basis but they are so emphasized by the authorities through centuries they have become pillars of beliefs in some places.

All of them have been organized by special committee also family tree & any reliable history document of each ImamZadeh has installed in entrance of each ImamZadeh which your accusation just has been based on typical anti Iran rhetoric . 

Edited May 2 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, realizm said:

It's actually funny because in 2005 I think, they first had covered Khawla's shrine with tiles only. It was beautiful, even though the persian style was very pronounced. 5 years later I went back and discovered a full gold place, I would even say it is too shiny for the eyes and looks fake.

It's has been your preffered style which everything  have been done by request of local Shia muslims in that region which maybe someone like you won't like it which it's differnet in viewpoint you & them ;

14 hours ago, realizm said:

To make you understand my point here is an example of Ras al Hussein mosque (عليه السلام), located a few miles away only, which is maybe in the state where Khawla's shrine was before its first renovation works. Notice how it actually gives more credit to the historical and archeological history of the mosque, than a brand new, pilgrim-friendly place with a`lams and Ziyara warith or Jami`a kabira everywhere on the walls.

It also has been renovated by request of local Shia & renovated by Iran 

 

14 hours ago, realizm said:

You probably know that Iranian influence expanded, amongst other things, by 'Iranisation' (of Islamic beliefs, of social organisations, etc.) Shrines are a well known example, with famous examples in Syria Iraq and Lebanon - all iran-funded, the most famous and successful being that of Sayida Zaynab (عليه السلام) in Damascus, and others like that of Salman al Farsi (r) which was detonated by Daesh I think.

I knew about this typical anti Iran rhetoric which both mentioned places have been renovated by preserving original building & structure in similar fashion which Iran has renovated shrines of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) which because there is still some wahabi sympathizers are living near to shrine of Sayida Zaynab (عليه السلام) in Damascus, & Salaman Farsi (رضي الله عنه) which tomb of Salman Farsi has been managed by fair sunnis in dominated sunni region which is not acceptable by wahabi sympathizers ; so therefore they have spread such anti Iran rhetoric because renovation of these places has been likewise inserting  a sharp nail into their eyes so therefore they have used pan Arab rhetoric against Iran about accusing Iran to extending it's influence & territory by renovation of shrines & etc .

 

[realizm]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It's has been your preffered style which everything  have been done by request of local Shia muslims in that region

All due respect brother, but how could you know ?

Is it how it works in Iran ? Local polls to which local people vote ? Come on, be serious. And even if answer is yes, I can tell you in Lebanon things do not work this way. At best, it is local representatives that 'requested' something. But again, you have no idea how people's opinion is mixed about them.

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It also has been renovated by request of local Shia & renovated by Iran 

Could not fond sources for this but thanks God for they kept it simple. 

 

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I knew about this typical anti Iran rhetoric

Brother when discussing between fellow shias, you should put that argument of anti-Iran rethoric aside for a moment. You always make the discussion come to a dead end using this speech. We are tackling legit topics here. 

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

which both mentioned places have been renovated by preserving original building & structure in similar fashion

My previous comments lacked illustrations but at the bottom of my post is an attachment that I hope will make you understand my point. It shows Khawla's shrine evolution from the 1980s to 2019. It is from a thesis in .pdf that you will find here (from Rim Mourtada, that we can easily identify by her name as a native from the area and a shiite).

The other attachment is Sayida Zaynab's shrine in 1945. I think things speak for themselves. You cannot deny, unless being very dishonest, that the golden style is definitely not a Levantine thing and it is an importation of Persian origin.

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

there is still some wahabi sympathizers are living near to shrine of Sayida Zaynab (عليه السلام) in Damascus, & Salaman Farsi (رضي الله عنه) which tomb of Salman Farsi has been managed by fair sunnis in dominated sunni region which is not acceptable by wahabi sympathizers ; so therefore they have spread such anti Iran rhetoric because renovation of these places has been likewise inserting  a sharp nail into their eyes so therefore they have used pan Arab rhetoric against Iran about accusing Iran to extending it's influence & territory by renovation of shrines & etc

Well this is interesting : you are proud of how Iran is involved in everything everywhere, then you criticize how people whom you always identify as wahabis are jealous of Iran's involvement, and you end by denying Iran's involvement and putring everything on 'Pan Arabism'. What does Pan Arabism have to do here. Being proud of your local heritage does not make you a Pan Arab. Anyone reading this would say you are actually a Pan Iranian. 

Come on brother, things are not monolithic. You need to nuance your ideas.

For example : 

There are indeed wahabis, who hate Shiism and Iran, and will blow up mosques and shrines, but there are also shiites, who disagree with a uniformisation of thought, culture and religious belief, and cannot content themselves with a shiny shrine when the lives of their family is a whole mess with no money no jobs no roads etc. And then you also have many shiites who find the shrine is fantastic and go there regularly. And those ones will have heated discussions with there relatives who belong to the precedent category, but it's still all good because we all free to have our opinions. 

A personal anecdote : my cousin recently was driving his motorcycle at night in the streets of Baalbek. A large avenue. Guess what, he fell in a hole because the road was being under work, and there was no sign or indication of it. Just a road, and bang, a hole in the middle. No road lights, no warning. He flew meters away and fell unconscious. He was awaken by a local who feared to take him to the hospital. Why ? Because he feared he would have to pay for his entrance fees. 

That's the condition of our countries brother. Nothing is working fine. You see things through the prism of Shia supremacy (in the name of helping the oppressed) but understand today the oppressed have improved their political situation and are in charge of a whole nation, and guess what, they fail miserably. 

I know we drifted from the topic of legitimity to proselytism, and as a supporter of Iran I have no interest in contradicting an Iranian brother, but I find it important that Iranians understand there is a counterpart to their Nation's shining in the whole region, which is that people have their own identity and interests and are also very attached to that.

As for Khawla's existence. I have no real opinion about the topic. I performed ziyara there myself several times. I just find it extravagant and unjustified.

 

Edited May 2 by realizm

[Ashvazdanghe]

41 minutes ago, realizm said:

Brother when discussing between fellow shias, you should put that argument of anti-Iran rethoric aside for a moment. You always make the discussion come to a dead end using this speech. We are tackling legit topics here. 

Salam , it has been you have started accusing Iran to changing heritage of Shia muslims & intervening in affairs of other countries by forcing it's style of making shrine on them  

 

44 minutes ago, realizm said:

cannot content themselves with a shiny shrine when the lives of their family is a whole mess with no money no jobs no roads etc. And then you also have many shiites who find the shrine is fantastic and go there regularly. And those ones will have heated discussions with there relatives who belong to the precedent category, but it's still all good because we all free to have our opinions. 

This is evil Iran who use wealth of shia muslims for it's projects .

42 minutes ago, realizm said:

A personal anecdote : my cousin recently was driving his motorcycle at night in the streets of Baalbek. A large avenue. Guess what, he fell in a hole because the road was being under work, and there was no sign or indication of it. Just a road, and bang, a hole in the middle. No road lights, no warning. He flew meters away and fell unconscious. He was awaken by a local who feared to take him to the hospital. Why ? Because he feared he would have to pay for his entrance fees. 

Probably it's due intervention of Iran in lebanon , how much Iran is evil !!!??

45 minutes ago, realizm said:

That's the condition of our countries brother. Nothing is working fine. You see things through the prism of Shia supremacy (in the name of helping the oppressed) but understand today the oppressed have improved their political situation and are in charge of a whole nation, and guess what, they fail miserably. 

All problems of world is due existence of Iran. 

47 minutes ago, realizm said:

I know we drifted from the topic of legitimity to proselytism, and as a supporter of Iran I have no interest in contradicting an Iranian brother, but I find it important that Iranians understand there is a counterpart to their Nation's shining in the whole region, which is that people have their own identity and interests and are also very attached to that.

you have totally turned it that how much Iran is evil & full of arrogance & oppressor of all Shia muslims.

48 minutes ago, realizm said:

. I just find it extravagant and unjustified.

you can rebuild it based on style that you prefer .It's not my business from evil Iran .

[realizm]

Brother @Ashvazdanghe.

What you just attributed to me does not reflect my speech. 

Learn to read properly what your interlocutor says. And stop being heated by any criticism towards Iran.  

No, it's not the end of the world if they gave a shrine a magnitude it does not deserve. No one said that.  But when you try to advocate it by any way, like it is a necessity and part of Iran's mission, then understand people will may be think Iran's mission is not in the interest of the people.

I say it with no shame. Islam does not need golden domes to shine in the world today. Therefore putting golden domes where /1 it is not 100% relevant and 2/ local people need something else is not a project of public interest yet you are advocating it like it is. You need to question your motivations, not me brother  

[Abu_Zahra]

@realizmit's best to put such people on ignore. When someone closes their eyes in the face of all evidence, fails to address valid points and just copy pastes mass blocks of off topic text then you know there won't be any serious discussion possible. 

[ShiaMan14]

@Ikiryo,

A lot of what you read today is meant to create doubt and confusion in the shia minds.

How many daughters the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had is irrelevant to Islam? Change the narrative to "How many daughters did the Prophet have (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) like Fatima (عليه السلام)?"

Did Hz Zainab (عليه السلام) give a speech in Yazid's court? Change the narrative, "Why was Hz Zainab in Yazid's court? Whose sunnah was Yazid following to dare bring the (grand)daughter of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) into his court?"

Hadees-e-Kisa is fake hadith. Change the narrative, "Ayah-e-Mubahila is showcases the importance of the AhlulBayt to the whole ummah"

The only way to counter these FITNAs is to change and control the narrative.

[Abu_Zahra]

2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The only way to counter these FITNAs is to change and control the narrative.

Providing authentic sources and narratives in place of inauthentic/unreliable ones is fitnah? Strange logic. 

[ShiaMan14]

17 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Providing authentic sources and narratives in place of inauthentic/unreliable ones is fitnah? Strange logic. 

Engaging in futile discussions is the fitna. Anyone who brings up the number of daughters of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a discussion has only 1 purpose in mind - somehow reduce the status of Fatima (عليه السلام) or to elevate the alleged husbands of these daughters. Therein lies the fitna. 

Simple recognition of the status of Fatima (عليه السلام) solves the problem. But if they are too recognize her status, then they would have to recognize Ali (عليه السلام), then they would have to recognize Hasan (عليه السلام), Hussain (عليه السلام), etc.  So its better to reduce Fatima to 1 of 4.

Here is another example of unnecessary fitna... "the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent" - what does this mean? it didn't happen? What parts are true, what parts are false? Was there no kisa? Did ayah-e-tatheer not come down at that time? Were Hasan, Hussain, Ali, Fatima not under the cloak together?

I am not saying the intention here was to create fitna but it may cast the seeds of doubt in someone's mind about the entire event of kisa. Those blessed with knowledge have a responsibility to be careful with their choice of words.

To bring it full circle here is an authentic source and narrative in place of inauthentic/unreliable ones to prove Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain were brought under a cloak and ayah-e-tatheer was revealed:
 

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said:

Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)

 

Reference	: Sahih Muslim 2424
In-book reference	: Book 44, Hadith 91

 

Is every single word in hadith-e-kisa exactly how things happened? May be, may be not. But the facts remain - cloak and tatheer happened.

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Engaging in futile discussions is the fitna. Anyone who brings up the number of daughters of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a discussion has only 1 purpose in mind - somehow reduce the status of Fatima (عليه السلام) or to elevate the alleged husbands of these daughters. Therein lies the fitna. 

No I wouldn't say that the only reason one would bring this up is for fitnah. There are sincere scholars who genuinely bring it up because there is a misconception in some circles that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) only had one daughter, that this is a standard Shi'i belief and that any  other claim is somehow an attack on our madhab. The problem with establishing such incorrect stances as a 'standard position' of Shiism is firstly that it's not true and secondly that people who genuinely think this is an essential belief will end up building their faith on incorrect stances, which can result in a destructive domino effect. 

 

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I am not saying the intention here was to create fitna but it may cast the seeds of doubt in someone's mind about the entire event of kisa.

I disagree. The doubts will occur when people educate themselves and realize that what was presented to them as authentic actually isn't. This is why one needs to uphold authenticity from the very start, so that people are 1) aware of the facts (which includes the superior status of Fatimah Zahra (sa) and the event of the cloak)  and 2) not vulnerable to doubts or a lack of credibility when they realize that what they considered indisputable is actually not authentic at all 

[Guest KHALID BIN WAHLID]

On 4/28/2024 at 3:15 AM, Shian e Ali said:

You better be a good daddy then. 

 

Why is the importance solely given to one daughter then? Isn't that unfair? This part of having multiple daughters confuses me. 

I am surprise that we are in the 21st century and people are still calling others arrogant for expressing their view. Prophet Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had more than one daughter, Fatima, Ruqayya, Umm Kulthum, and Zaynab, unless you think the other daughter are less significant. ( Some Shia contend that Ruqayya, Umm Kulthum, and Zainab were adopted by Muhammad after the death of their mother Hala who is Khadija sister. I am sure there are those who profess that we only have one rightly guided caliph, which is Ali. Abu bakr, Uthman and Umar did not exist according to their orthodoxy. Abu Bakr is the successor who gave the stability the religion needed after the death of Rasulillah. Think of the Rida war, the war with the Sasanian.

 

[Qa'im]

4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Anyone who brings up the number of daughters of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as a discussion has only 1 purpose in mind - somehow reduce the status of Fatima (عليه السلام) or to elevate the alleged husbands of these daughters.

Instead of assuming I have this intention in my brain, why not look at my actual stated words in the same post? I said: "The proliferation of such a belief make[s] us look ahistorical, close-minded, insincere, and perhaps even cult-like". Since we believe in Shi'a Islam, we believe that truth matters, and that truth should be pursued and preserved, and that the consequence of denying the truth is being placed in a hot burning fire. When we start mixing the truth with forgeries, and even elevate those forgeries above some truths, we dilute and misrepresent the whole faith. 

For example, when a sincere outsider who is seeking the truth comes to our community, only to see that we can't even admit an obvious fact, why would they bother investigating our bigger claims? We have no problem pointing out forgeries in Sunni Islam, yet our forgeries are even more recent. Double standards like this turns people away and becomes ammunition for nawasib to say "see?! they don't take the truth seriously".

But regarding the status of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام), no, admitting the existence of her sisters does not lower her status. She does not derive her status from being the "only daughter of the Prophet". The Prophet (s) even had sons like Qasim and Ibrahim that we agree on. The status of Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) derives from the fact that Allah chose her. She has her own merit, she was the only one under the kisa', she was the only one to inherit from the Prophet, she was the only one with continual descendants, and she was the only one who had Imamate in her line, among many other fada'il. If anything, to say that Fatima (عليه السلام) had sisters makes Fatima (عليه السلام) even greater, because Allah chose her above her own older sisters (and her male siblings too). Actually, denying their existence would deny some of the mathloomiyya of Sayyida Fatima, because it is saying that she did not see her sisters die and live with that. Admitting the existence of Ruqayya bint Rasulullah and Umm Kulthum bint Rasulullah does not raise the status of Uthman, just as the wives of Nuh and Lut did not lower their status. If anything, Uthman going renegade after the Messenger (s) would be an even bigger betrayal, rather than saying that he was never Muslim at all to begin with.

4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Here is another example of unnecessary fitna... "the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent" - what does this mean? it didn't happen? What parts are true, what parts are false? Was there no kisa? Did ayah-e-tatheer not come down at that time? Were Hasan, Hussain, Ali, Fatima not under the cloak together?

 

This is why I chose my words very carefully (and this is also why I gave a trigger warning!!!). "The popular version of Hadith al-Kisa" does not mean the event of kisa' in general did not happen. This popular version, in some communities, is recited at every single event (Tuesdays, Thursdays, Ramadan evenings, etc.) and even in weddings and funerals. That means we recite this alleged hadith more than any hadith, any dua, and even most of the Quran. What do we lose by reciting an older, more reliable version of it? It would be shorter and it would show that we are adaptable to the truth.

It reminds me of the verse in the Quran, "So woe to those who write the 'scripture' with their own hands, then say, 'This is from Allah ,' in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn." (2:79)

I understand that for some people, institutionalizing 300-year-old practices is fine, because 300 years is a long time. But time is relative - imagine if, in your lifetime, everyone in 2024 all of a sudden believed that the Prophet (s) was born in Karbala, or that Ali (عليه السلام) was the only son of Abu Talib, or if I wrote a du'a today that is recited in every mosque every Wednesday (for example). Imagine if no one said a word about it. Imagine if people said these beliefs are harmless, fine, good, and even recommended, even if they are false.

[EiE]

brother @Qa'im, I would love to hear more about all your "trigger warnings". Where can I find them?

Edited May 3 by EiE

[Qa'im]

41 minutes ago, EiE said:

brother @Qa'im, I would love to hear more about all your "trigger warnings". Where can I find them?

I don’t have a directory with these topics written anywhere. You just have to look at these things case by case.

[Eddie Mecca]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:45 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam , it has been you have started accusing Iran to changing heritage of Shia muslims & intervening in affairs of other countries by forcing it's style of making shrine on them  

Salaam...May Allah bless the Islamic Republic of Iran and its people...Lebanon would be a part of Greater Israel by now if it wasn't for Iranian involvement and assistance...but golden domes on shrines and mosques are among the negative signs of the End Times according to both Sunni and Shi'i hadith literature...you criticize Sunnis and Christians for following mindless traditionalism...but when Shi'a people follow mind-numbing traditionalism you find it praiseworthy...one time you even praised Shah Abbas I for forcing Shi'i Islam onto the Iranian masses...according to you, when Shi'a oppress it's good...but when Sunnis oppress it's wrong...c'mon akhi...we expect more from you...we must learn to be consistent in our modes of argumentation 

Edited May 4 by Eddie Mecca

[Eddie Mecca]

47 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

negative signs

Footnote: there negative End Times signs, positive End Times signs and neutral signs pointed out in Islamic eschatology literature...golden domes are among the negative signs of 'ilm ākhir az-zamān fī al-islām

[foxmccloud]

17 hours ago, Guest KHALID BIN WAHLID said:

Abu Bakr is the successor who gave the stability the religion needed after the death of Rasulillah. Think of the Rida war, the war with the Sasanian.

 

Abu Bakr is was appointed by people and not by Allah, not everyone accepted him to be leader and he forced people. And khalid ibn walid (may Allah's mercy be far from him)

Murdered an innocent man and raped his wife. He forcefully spread islam trough the middle east. This man wasn't an genious warrior and tactician but just like hitler made use of the instability in the Roman empire and others. Not an man to be proud of.

[EiE]

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

I don’t have a directory with these topics written anywhere. You just have to look at these things case by case.

 

Haha, alright.

 

[Qa'im]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:40 PM, EiE said:

4

Regarding Sayyida Fatima's blessed grave, here are two hadiths saying that she was buried in her house:

عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر البزنطي قال: سألته عن فاطمة بنت رسول الله عليها السلام أي مكان دفنت، فقال: سأل رجل جعفرا عن هذه المسألة وعيسى بن موسى حاضر فقال له عيسى: دفنت في البقيع، فقال الرجل: ما تقول؟ فقال قد قال لك، فقال له أصلحك الله ما أنا وعيسى بن موسى، أخبرني عن آبائك فقال: دفنت في بيتها (2)

173 - الكليني عن علي بن محمد وغيره، عن سهل بن زياد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها، فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد (3)

Here is Shaykh al-Saduq's statement:

۳ ـ ومنهم من روى أنّها دفنت في بيتها فلمّا زادت بنو أميّة في المسجد صارت في المسجد ، وهذا هو الصحيح عندي (۲۹) »

Among them are those who narrated that she was buried in her house; and when Banu Umayya expanded the Mosque, it became inside the Mosque - and this to me is the sahih view.

Shaykh al-Tusi wrote:

أنّه هو الذي روى الرواية الصحيحة على دفنها في منزلها

A sahih report narrates that she was buried in her house.

----

This was narrated by Kulayni, and this was also the position of Ibn Tawus, `Allamah al-Majlisi, and others.

The grave today would be inside the Rawdha, a holy of holies in Islam:

Like the grave of Amir al-Mu’mineen, the imams made the grave of Sayyida Fatima known. The fact that it was a secret burial supports the idea that the funeral and burial took place at her home. If she were buried outdoors, people would’ve noticed, especially since the authorities (including `Umar) were known to watch at night. Medina was not a big city at the time - it was about the size of today's Masjid al-Nabawi complex.

So this is sufficient evidence for me. Yes she was buried in secret, but no we have a good idea of where she was laid to rest.

 

[EiE]

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Regarding Sayyida Fatima's blessed grave, here are two hadiths saying that she was buried in her house:

عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر البزنطي قال: سألته عن فاطمة بنت رسول الله عليها السلام أي مكان دفنت، فقال: سأل رجل جعفرا عن هذه المسألة وعيسى بن موسى حاضر فقال له عيسى: دفنت في البقيع، فقال الرجل: ما تقول؟ فقال قد قال لك، فقال له أصلحك الله ما أنا وعيسى بن موسى، أخبرني عن آبائك فقال: دفنت في بيتها (2)

173 - الكليني عن علي بن محمد وغيره، عن سهل بن زياد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها، فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد (3)

Here is Shaykh al-Saduq's statement:

۳ ـ ومنهم من روى أنّها دفنت في بيتها فلمّا زادت بنو أميّة في المسجد صارت في المسجد ، وهذا هو الصحيح عندي (۲۹) »

Among them are those who narrated that she was buried in her house; and when Banu Umayya expanded the Mosque, it became inside the Mosque - and this to me is the sahih view.

Shaykh al-Tusi wrote:

أنّه هو الذي روى الرواية الصحيحة على دفنها في منزلها

A sahih report narrates that she was buried in her house.

----

This was narrated by Kulayni, and this was also the position of Ibn Tawus, `Allamah al-Majlisi, and others.

The grave today would be inside the Rawdha, a holy of holies in Islam:

Like the grave of Amir al-Mu’mineen, the imams made the grave of Sayyida Fatima known. The fact that it was a secret burial supports the idea that the funeral and burial took place at her home. If she were buried outdoors, people would’ve noticed, especially since the authorities (including `Umar) were known to watch at night. Medina was not a big city at the time - it was about the size of today's Masjid al-Nabawi complex.

So this is sufficient evidence for me. Yes she was buried in secret, but no we have a good idea of where she was laid to rest.

 

 

Intersting.  I have not studied hadith much at all myself, so I don't know how to determine the authenticity. Have you shared this with more prominent speakers and scholars? If so, what was their response?

[Qa'im]

21 minutes ago, EiE said:

 

Intersting.  I have not studied hadith much at all myself, so I don't know how to determine the authenticity. Have you shared this with more prominent speakers and scholars? If so, what was their response?

Most of them are in agreement at this point. Unfortunately, many won’t just freely say this stuff, because audiences aren’t ready for it. I’m of the view that the bandaid just needs to be ripped off.

[EiE]

3 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Most of them are in agreement at this point. Unfortunately, many won’t just freely say this stuff, because audiences aren’t ready for it.

This is kinda sad but also somewhat understandable to some extent.

It also makes you wonder, how much else there's that's not shared due to audience not being ready.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/2/2024 at 7:13 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

@realizmit's best to put such people on ignore. When someone closes their eyes in the face of all evidence, fails to address valid points and just copy pastes mass blocks of off topic text then you know there won't be any serious discussion possible. 

you are a moderator&can block me for opposing you which you have done multiple times before just because ... 

Edited May 5 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:07 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Salaam...May Allah bless the Islamic Republic of Iran and its people...Lebanon would be a part of Greater Israel by now if it wasn't for Iranian involvement and assistance...but golden domes on shrines and mosques are among the negative signs of the End Times according to both Sunni and Shi'i hadith literature...you criticize Sunnis and Christians for following mindless traditionalism...but when Shi'a people follow mind-numbing traditionalism you find it praiseworthy...one time you even praised Shah Abbas I for forcing Shi'i Islam onto the Iranian masses...according to you, when Shi'a oppress it's good...but when Sunnis oppress it's wrong...c'mon akhi...we expect more from you...we must learn to be consistent in our modes of argumentation 

Salam thank you a million however , i have not defended making golden shrines which @realizm & @Abu_Zahra have tried to lead  discussion into evil influence of Iran on new generation younger Shia by making golden doos & etc  which needs another topic because here has been discussion has been about validity of some hadith & records which they have tried to deviate it into anti Iran rhetoric based on their mindset because they have not a logical response so therefore thay have turned it into accusing Iran into spreading falsehood between Shia community based on mindset so called reformists likewise Kamanpoori & etc. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, Qa'im said:

So this is sufficient evidence for me. Yes she was buried in secret, but no we have a good idea of where she was laid to rest.

Salam it's most logical evidence anyway there is a erport that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has made multiple graves in Baqi cemetery during night so then he has not allowed to anyone to open graves  next day in order to so called sunni caliph don't pray on her body  so then justify their caliphate by praying on her blessed body in similar fashion their policy about fabrication of hadiths about forgiving them by lady Fatima (sa) so then her burial place has been kept as a secret by other Imams which grave of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been kept as a secret although of secret pilgrimages until era of Harun Al-Rashid due to enmity of cursed Umayyads & Abbasids caliphs until era of of Harun al-Rashid but grave of lady Fatima (sa) has been kept as most deep secret until now which even most devouted Shias couldn't visit it until now which before reppearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) anyone likewise  fake Yamani & other fake Mahdis will claim finding her place of burial  before reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) will be a sign for verifying them as fake Mahdis & Yamanis & etc . 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:07 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

but golden domes on shrines and mosques are among the negative signs of the End Times according to both Sunni and Shi'i hadith literature...

 

On 5/4/2024 at 8:59 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Footnote: there negative End Times signs, positive End Times signs and neutral signs pointed out in Islamic eschatology literature...golden domes are among the negative signs of 'ilm ākhir az-zamān fī al-islām

Salam , It's not about making golden domes or massive mosques but on the other hand it's about emptiness of  places of worship likewise shrines mosques & etc from worshippers which making beautiful & decorated shrines & mosques has no problem but on the other hand emptiness of these places from worshippers although of too much decoration & using too much valuable materials likewise gold is from signs of end times which unfortunately we can see it in Iran about making too much Hussayinas & mosques for rivalry of some groups with each other anyway we can see uprising of presence of people in shrines likewise Imam Reza (عليه السلام) shrine & lady masoumah in Qom which in similar fashion there is a great uprising of pilgrims & worshippers  to Shia shrines in Iraq & Syria & Lebanon as places of worshipping Allah due to renovations & observing these places by Iran although some groups even between shias likewise so called reformists & anti resistance grouplets are not happy from it .

 

On 5/4/2024 at 8:07 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

you criticize Sunnis and Christians for following mindless traditionalism...but when Shi'a people follow mind-numbing traditionalism you find it praiseworthy..

Respectfully in opposition to your claim  I have criticized traditionalism in between Shi'a people too which I always have been  against negative passive  traditionalism & so called reformism which is about isolation from world & opposing involving in politics & being a sitting duck against oppressors & just talking about absurd ideas likewise number of daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) or talking about validity of Hadith kisa & etc while I just have endorsed active traditionalism which are in line about being active waiter of Imam Mahdi (aj) & using positive politics & other means by preserving religious red lines  .

On 5/4/2024 at 8:07 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

...one time you even praised Shah Abbas I for forcing Shi'i Islam onto the Iranian masses...according to you, when Shi'a oppress it's good...

Prove that I have endorsed a shia oppressor which  you have not read history enough because Shah Ismail has forced some Iranian groups from Sunnis & zoroastrians  to convert to Shia Islam in certain places which I  have not endorsed his oppression although it has been a necessary oppression for opposing invation of Ottomans  which people have not returned to their past religion after sfall of Safavids because find it better than previous belife ; which he has done it based on geopolitical & demographic issues with Ottomans about in some places for making a barrier against Ottomans & strengthening central locations  although against you claim still we can find that being sunni is dominant between Kurds of Iran at west & dominance of sunni Islam in east of Iran although these places have been unde control of Safavids & other Shia dynasties after them ; which  even Shah Abbas has been criticized for allowing activity of Christian missionaries due to supporting european mechants  & giving too much freedom to Hindu merchants which it has been said that hindus have tried to build a hindu Temple around Isfahan  of Iran  which it has been destroyed by order of Allamah Majlisi (رضي الله عنه) anyway there is a hindu temple in Bandar Abbas in south of iran which has been a center for hindu merchants which has been built in Qajar era . 

Quote

The Hindu temple is located in the center of the city of Bandar Abbas (Hormozgan region) and was designed and built in 1888 by a group of Indian merchants residing in this city.

Returning Indians, returning to their country, brought back all the statues in the sanctuary to India.

This temple is an important testimony of the cultural and artistic interaction between Iran and India.

https://en.irancultura.it/tourism/attractions/attractions-Hormozgan/Hindu-temple/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_Abbas_Vishnu_Temple

https://lastsecond.ir/attractions/7865-hindu-temple-bandar-abbas

Edited May 5 by Ashvazdanghe

[EiE]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:43 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

When someone closes their eyes in the face of all evidence, fails to address valid points and just copy pastes mass blocks of off topic text then you know there won't be any serious discussion possible. 

I doubt if there's anyone who reads his long copy pastes lol. It's as if he doesn't know what he writes himself, he just writes to protect what he believes goes against Iran or his culture, but he seems to forget protecting Islam and Truth.