New trend amongst younger Shia to challenge long held beliefs

[Ikiryo]

There seems to be a growing trend, especially online, of many younger “Shia” challenging many of the deeply held Twelver beliefs with an air of authority that borders on arrogance. Now, I’m. It saying they are wrong - I’m not a scholar - but something about it just doesn’t sit right with me. For example, they detract from the injustice suffered by Fatima (a) discredit the words of Zainab to Yazid (a) and challenge the narrative that the Prophet (s) had more than one biological daughter in line with what Sunnis et al believe. And it is this point that I would like to focus on and ask the question : are there any scholars from the past and up to the present day who state that only Fatima(a) is the biological daughter of the Prophet(s). When asked they will say scholars of the past never held this view and will name the likes of Murtada, Kulayni and Mufid.

[Ibn Tayyar]

22 hours ago, Ikiryo said:

There seems to be a growing trend, especially online, of many younger “Shia” challenging many of the deeply held Twelver beliefs with an air of authority that borders on arrogance. Now, I’m. It saying they are wrong - I’m not a scholar - but something about it just doesn’t sit right with me. For example, they detract from the injustice suffered by Fatima (a) discredit the words of Zainab to Yazid (a) and challenge the narrative that the Prophet (s) had more than one biological daughter in line with what Sunnis et al believe. And it is this point that I would like to focus on and ask the question : are there any scholars from the past and up to the present day who state that only Fatima(a) is the biological daughter of the Prophet(s). When asked they will say scholars of the past never held this view and will name the likes of Murtada, Kulayni and Mufid.

That the Prophet (saww) only had one daughter is not a "Shi'i" belief, it is a belief of many, if not most, of our Shi'i scholarship based on strong proof, the strongest being that we have an authentic chain to the ambassador of Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) claiming such.

A commonly held Shi'i belief is not that which is commonly chanted in the pulpits, you need to look at the books of our scholars to know what they actually said or didn't say.

[SO SOLID SHIA]

I've seen a lot of these unstable kids post and challenge Islamic beliefs in general especially the shia ones. There seems to be a large online communist movement crept in amongst Shias. these green haired take off the hijjab (out of defiance and Yass Queen-ism) and wear a t-shirt with a picture of Che Guevara on it and all claim they are suffering with 'Imposter syndrome' is just something that makes them feel important in this world. AND OF COURSE THEY ARE IMPORTANT, but they feel that they need to be different in order to be heard. I blame Daddy issues once again. Every problem in life, its a daddy issue.

If you just ignore them, they'll eventually find something else to do. Right now they all want to diagnose with something to put in their bio. 

 

Edited April 28, 2024 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Ikiryo]

16 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

That the Prophet (saww) only had one daughter is not a "Shi'i" belief, it is a belief of many, if not most, of our Shi'i scholarship based on strong proof, the strongest being that we have an authentic chain to the ambassador of Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) claiming such.

A commonly held Shi'i belief is not that which is commonly chanted in the pulpits, you need to look at the books of our scholars to know what they actually said or didn't say.

I never said the belief in the Prophet (a) having one daughter was a Sunni belief - I said that him having multiple daughters was a belief of the Sunnis et al. 

[Shian e Ali]

9 hours ago, SO SOLID SHIA said:

I've seen a lot of these unstable kids post and challenge Islamic beliefs in general especially the shia ones. There seems to be a large online communist movement crept in amongst Shias. these green haired take off the hijjab (out of defiance and Yass Queen-ism) and wear a t-shirt with a picture of Che Guevara on it and all claim they are suffering with 'Imposter syndrome' is just something that makes them feel important in this world. AND OF COURSE THEY ARE IMPORTANT, but they feel that they need to be different in order to be heard. I blame Daddy issues once again. Every problem in life, its a daddy issue.

If you just ignore them, they'll eventually find something else to do. Right now they all want to diagnose with something to put in their bio. 

 

You better be a good daddy then. 

 

16 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

That the Prophet (saww) only had one daughter is not a "Shi'i" belief, it is a belief of many, if not most, of our Shi'i scholarship based on strong proof, the strongest being that we have an authentic chain to the ambassador of Imam Al-Mahdi (عليه السلام) claiming such.

A commonly held Shi'i belief is not that which is commonly chanted in the pulpits, you need to look at the books of our scholars to know what they actually said or didn't say.

Why is the importance solely given to one daughter then? Isn't that unfair? This part of having multiple daughters confuses me. 

[علوي]

13 minutes ago, Shian e Ali said:

Why is the importance solely given to one daughter then? Isn't that unfair? This part of having multiple daughters confuses me. 

I'm not sure about how many daughters the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had, I've heard many theories.

But if he did have multiple daughters, it wouldn't be unfair because Allah chose Fatima and purified her, just as He purified the Virgin Mary:

وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَىٰ نِسَاءِ الْعَالَمِينَ
And when the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah has chosen you and purified you, and He has chosen you above the world’s women. [3:42]

Allah also chose, for example, Imam Zayn al-Abideen to succeed Imam al-Hussein instead of Ali al-Akbar. He chose Imam al-Kazim over Ismail ibn Jafar. It's not unfair because these are the most righteous and are chosen by Allah.

[Ibn Tayyar]

2 hours ago, Ikiryo said:

I never said the belief in the Prophet (a) having one daughter was a Sunni belief - I said that him having multiple daughters was a belief of the Sunnis et al. 

Sorry this is what I meant. That the Prophet having multiple daughters is a "Sunni" belief. This is nonsense. Shi'i scholars from the beginning have mentioned him having multiple daughters.

[Ibn Tayyar]

1 hour ago, Shian e Ali said:

You better be a good daddy then. 

 

Why is the importance solely given to one daughter then? Isn't that unfair? This part of having multiple daughters confuses me. 

Because she is his greatest daughter, and her preference over this others is explained in this tradition which was authentically narrated from the ambassador of the Imam of our time (عليه السلام).

And one of the theologians asked him (i.e. Shaykh al-Hasan b. Ruh رضي الله عنه) – and he is known by Tirk al-Harawi(?) – so he said to him: How many daughters did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم have? So he said: Four. He said: So which of them is preferred? So he said: Fatima. So he said: And why did she become preferred while she was the youngest of them in age and the one from them to spend the least amount of time in the company of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم?! He said: For having two special traits, which Allah characterized her by, favouring her and conferring her honour and respect. One of them is that she inherited from the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, and none other than her inherited from his children; and the other is that Allah maintained the progeny of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم from her and it did not remain from other than her. And He did not qualify her with that except due to the virtue of sincerity which He had distinguished of her intention. 

al-Harawi said: And I have not seen a person speak and answer regarding this subject by [anything] better nor more concise [to the point] than his answer. (Tusi’s Ghayba) 

(sahih) (صحيح)

Like I said, the opinion that the Prophet (saww) had multiple daughters was mentioned by Al-Mufid (rah), Al-Tusi (rah), Al-Murtadha (rah), and modern scholars aswell. And the words of the Ambassador of the Imam (عليه السلام) should be enough.

[Ikiryo]

And back to my original question - which scholars from the past to today have upheld or promoted the belief that the Prophet (s) had only one biological daughter?

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Sorry this is what I meant. That the Prophet having multiple daughters is a "Sunni" belief. This is nonsense. Shi'i scholars from the beginning have mentioned him having multiple daughters.

Salam "Shi'i scholars from the beginning have mentioned him having" lady Fatima (sa) as his only biological daughter but other his three daughters have been his adopted daughter who has been daughters of sister of ady khadija (sa) which it has been discussed about it in below threads. 

 

 

 

 

[Qa'im]

Here is a book on the subject: https://archive.org/details/HowManyDaughtersDidTheProphetHave

I'm not too young and I pray that Allah removes any arrogance from me, but Shiism should ultimately be about pursuing truth rather than simply defending a culture. A lot of energy is spent defending beliefs and practice that are either palpably untrue and harmful, or may just technically be allowed according to a set of arguments. What our forefathers believed has no bearing on our salvation.

Will someone be punished for believing that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is the only daughter of the Messenger of Allah (s)? Probably not. But does the proliferation of such a belief make us look ahistorical, close-minded, insincere, and perhaps even cult-like? Absolutely.

The same goes for many other issues: (here is your trigger warning) (1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech is not necessarily reliable, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent, (3) the shrines of Khawla, Abu Lu'lu', Shahrbanu, and Mazar Sharif aren't real, (4) we know where Sayyida Fatima's grave is, (5) the third shahada in adhan was popularized in the Safavid period, (6) Things like Nadi `Ali and Khutbatul Bayan are also very late, (7) Common hadiths used like "Love of the nation is from faith (hub al-watan min al-iman)" are probably fabrications, (8) the crack in the Ka'ba is not related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), etc. etc.

People can feel free to believe in all these things, but you'd be practicing a ~300 year old religion. Personally, I want to practice the school of Ahl al-Bayt. Not just things that may technically be harmless, or can technically be done if practiced in exactly the right way. I'm trying to understand what they believed and practiced, and I'd rather not waste my time with obvious forgeries.

[Ibn Tayyar]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam "Shi'i scholars from the beginning have mentioned him having" lady Fatima (sa) as his only biological daughter but other his three daughters have been his adopted daughter who has been daughters of sister of ady khadija (sa) which it has been discussed about it in below threads. 

 

 

 

 

That isn't true and that is a weak and late opinion. 

الشيخ المفيد قدس سره في أجوبة المسائل العكبرية (المسألة الخمسين) ، ص 120 في جواب سؤال حول زينب ورقية ، هل هما ابنتا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله أو ربيبتاه ، فأجاب قدس سره بقوله : والجواب أن زينب ورقية كانتا ابنتي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ، والمخالف لذلك شاذ بخلافه

This is just one example and this is from Al-Mufid (rah), and here he states that the Prophet (saww) had four daughters and whoever says otherwise, such as that they were adopted, is espousing a shadh opinion. 

It is up to you what you wish to believe, but this is the view of many of our scholars, and the view of the Ambassador of the Imam (عليه السلام) as narrated by Al-Ghayba by Al-Tusi (rah).

Edited April 28, 2024 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ibn Tayyar]

8 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Here is a book on the subject: https://archive.org/details/HowManyDaughtersDidTheProphetHave

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you brother. What is quoted in there should be enough for this topic.

[2Timeless]

23 hours ago, SO SOLID SHIA said:

but they feel that they need to be different in order to be heard. I blame Daddy issues once again. Every problem in life, its a daddy issue.

If you just ignore them, they'll eventually find something else to do. Right now they all want to diagnose with something to put in their bio. 

Replace your display pic please:

[Abu_Zahra]

10 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Here is a book on the subject: https://archive.org/details/HowManyDaughtersDidTheProphetHave

I'm not too young and I pray that Allah removes any arrogance from me, but Shiism should ultimately be about pursuing truth rather than simply defending a culture. A lot of energy is spent defending beliefs and practice that are either palpably untrue and harmful, or may just technically be allowed according to a set of arguments. What our forefathers believed has no bearing on our salvation.

Will someone be punished for believing that Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام) is the only daughter of the Messenger of Allah (s)? Probably not. But does the proliferation of such a belief make us look ahistorical, close-minded, insincere, and perhaps even cult-like? Absolutely.

The same goes for many other issues: (here is your trigger warning) (1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech has no ancient sources, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent, (3) the shrines of Khawla, Abu Lu'lu', Shahrbanu, and Mazar Sharif aren't real, (4) we know where Sayyida Fatima's grave is, (5) the third shahada in adhan was popularized in the Safavid period, (6) Things like Nadi `Ali and Khutbatul Bayan are also very late, (7) Common hadiths used like "Love of the nation is from faith (hub al-watan min al-iman)" are probably fabrications, (8) the crack in the Ka'ba is not related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), etc. etc.

People can feel free to believe in all these things, but you'd be practicing a ~300 year old religion. Personally, I want to practice the school of Ahl al-Bayt. Not just things that may technically be harmless, or can technically be done if practiced in exactly the right way. I'm trying to understand what they believed and practiced, and I'd rather not waste my time with obvious forgeries.

Excellent post 

[GEU_40]

10 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Here is a book on the subject: https://archive.org/details/HowManyDaughtersDidTheProphetHave

You make some solid points brother, and there is truth in them. Personally, I believe that it's strongly likely that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had four daughters.

However, Nader Zaveri's obsessively rijal based methodology isn't necessarily the best and only option to separate the wheat from the chaff in historical matters.

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

That isn't true and that is a weak and late opinion. 

الشيخ المفيد قدس سره في أجوبة المسائل العكبرية (المسألة الخمسين) ، ص 120 في جواب سؤال حول زينب ورقية ، هل هما ابنتا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله أو ربيبتاه ، فأجاب قدس سره بقوله : والجواب أن زينب ورقية كانتا ابنتي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ، والمخالف لذلك شاذ بخلافه

This is just one example and this is from Al-Mufid (rah), and here he states that the Prophet (saww) had four daughters and whoever says otherwise, such as that they were adopted, is espousing a shadh opinion. 

It is up to you what you wish to believe, but this is the view of many of our scholars, and the view of the Ambassador of the Imam (عليه السلام) as narrated by Al-Ghayba by Al-Tusi (rah).

Salam your statement  is just cherry picking of your favorit part just to prove your point by any means which statement of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) has been mentioned in wahabi sites without mentioning statements of other revered shia scholars which generally they have said that prophet Muhammad (pbu) has had four daughters & four sons which three of them have been sons of Umm al Muminin  Khadija (sa) & one of them has been son of Umm al Muminin  Maria al-Qibtiyya  who all of them have passed away some time after their birth .

Anyway all shia scholars have called all daughters as daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in similar fashion of calling all wives of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as  Umm al Muminin  .

according to Sheikh Kulaini (رضي الله عنه) three of daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) have born before Mab'ath ( public announcing of begining his mission ) so then lady Fatima has born after  Mab'ath.

Quote

وقال الكليني قدس سره : وتزوج خديجة وهو ابن بضع وعشرين سنة ، فولد له منها قبل مبعثه عليه السلام : القاسم ، ورقية ، وزينب ، وأم كلثوم ، وولد له بعد المبعث : الطيب والطاهر وفاطمة . وروي أيضاً : أنه لم يولد بعد المبعث إلا فاطمة عليها السلام ، وأن الطيب والطاهر وُلدا قبل مبعثه 1 .

According to Sheikh Tabrisi (رضي الله عنه) all them have been his children without mentioning name of their mother (s) 

Quote

وقال الشيخ الطبرسي قدس سره : فأول ما حملت ولدت عبد الله بن محمد وهو الطيب الطاهر ، وولدت له القاسم ، وقيل : إن القاسم أكبر ، وهو بكره ، وبه كان يُكنَّى ، والناس يغلطون فيقولون : وُلد له منها أربع بنين : القاسم ، وعبد الله ، والطيب ، والطاهر ، وإنما وُلد له منها ابنان وأربع بنات : زينب ، ورقية ، وأم كلثوم ، وفاطمة 2 .

 

Ibn Shahr Ashub(رضي الله عنه) just has mentioned their names which he just has talked about birth of sons of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & neglected talking about  birth of his daughter which just only  has mentioned name of Umm al Muminin  Maria al-Qibtiyya  as mother of Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

Quote

قال ابن شهراشوب قدس سره : أولاده : وُلد من خديجة : القاسم ، وعبدالله ، وهما الطاهر ، والطيب ، وأربع بنات : زينب ، ورقية ، وأم كلثوم ، وهي آمنة ، وفاطمة ، وهي أم أبيها . ولم يكن له ولد من غيرها إلا إبراهيم من مارية ، وُلد بعالية في قبيلة مازن في مشربة أم إبراهيم ، ويقال: ولد بالمدينة سنة ثمان من الهجرة ، ومات بها وله سنة وعشرة أشهر وثمانية أيام ، وقبره بالبقيع 3 .

Al-Tustari (رضي الله عنه) & Mamaqani (رضي الله عنه) have said there is no problem to call them as daughter of prophet Muhammad (pbu)

Quote

وقال المحقق التستري رحمة الله عليه : ثم لا ريب في أن زينب ورقية كانتا ابنتي النبي صلى الله عليه وآله 4 .

 

Quote

وقد ذكر المامقاني قدس سره في كتابه تنقيح المقال كلاماً جيداً في هذه المسألة في ترجمة زينب بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ، لا بأس بذكره . قال قدس سره

Sayed Abi al-Qasim Kufi has mentioned in a long statement that Zaynab & Ruqaya have been wives of Uthman as adopted daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu)

Quote

 وللسيد أبي القاسم العلوي الكوفي في (الاستغاثة في بدع الثلاثة) كلام طويل ، أصرَّ فيه على أن زينب التي كانت تحت أبي العاص بن الربيع ، ورقية التي كانت تحت عثمان ، ليستا بنتيه صلى الله عليه وآله ، بل ربيبتاه ، ولم يأت إلا بما زعمه برهاناً ، حاصله : عدم تعقل كون رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله قبل البعثة على دين الجاهلية ، بل كان في زمن الجاهلية على دين يرتضيه الله من غير دين الجاهلية ، وحينئذ فيكون محالاً أن يزوج ابنته من كافر ، من غير ضرورة دعت إلى ذلك ، وهو مخالف لهم في دينهم ، عارف بمكرهم وإلحادهم ، ثم أخذ في نقل ما يقضي بوجود بنتين لأخت خديجة من أمها ، اسمهما زينب ، ورقية ، وأنهما اللتان كانتا تحت أبي العاص وعثمان ، وهذا لب كلامه ، تركنا نقله لطوله ، وهو وإن أتعب نفسه إلا أنه لم يأت بما يغني عن تكلف النظر والثبوت ، وأنه كبيت العنكبوت .

https://islam4u.com/ar/shobahat/هل-كان-للنبي-ص-بنات-غير-فاطمة-الزهراء-ع-؟

in conclusion there is not enough evidence about exact name of three daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) except lady Fatima (sa) anyway prophet Muhammad (pbu) has no problem with adopting children in similar fashion that he adopted Zayd (رضي الله عنه) as his step son which after revealing verse of holy Quran he has nullified inheriting adopted son from stepfather & in similar fashion nullified marriage of Zaynab & Ruqaya with sons of cursed Abu Sufyan . 

[Qa'im]

2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

You make some solid points brother, and there is truth in them. Personally, I believe that it's strongly likely that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had four daughters.

However, Nader Zaveri's obsessively rijal based methodology isn't necessarily the best and only option to separate the wheat from the chaff in historical matters.

On this particular issue and in this book, rijal isn’t even the focus or the methodology used. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, Qa'im said:

(8) the crack in the Ka'ba is not related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), etc. etc.

Salam it's a proven miracle which has been related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), which although of two major  destruction & reconstruction Kaaba during son cursed Ummayad era by son of zubayr & cursed Hajjaj Thaqafi it has remained intact although their efforts for hiding it which even now although all efforts of Al-Saud monarchy in name of restoration of Kaaba & filling it with different materials so then it has been  returned to original state of crack although using any material & technique for hiding it by Al-Saud monarchy which also this miracle & relation it to  has been verified Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام) by all of reliable sources which Wahabist only could spread void doubts about it which their doubts have been refuted by both of Shia scholar & fair sunni scholars .

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Qa'im said:

(3) the shrines of Khawla, Abu Lu'lu', Shahrbanu, and Mazar Sharif aren't rea

Shrine of Abu Lu'lu' is belongs to a sufi saint who has no relation to killer of Umar the second sunni caliph ; which in similar fashion Mazar Sharif belongs to a pious descendant of Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام) who his name has been Ali too which due to some misunderstanding  in reading carved scripture on stone his grave also because of too much troubles likewise too much insecurity  & prevention of anti shia rulers of that region from visiting shrine of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) which even now Pakistani shias are facing too much troubles for visiting shrines through using roads which may face radical anti shias in gray areas between borders  so then he has been mistaken as Imam Ali (عليه السلام) .

about Shrine of Khawla 

Quote

Historical sources have not mentioned that Imam al-Husayn (a) had a daughter called Khawla, but people of Baalbek believe that when the caravan of captives of Karbala passed Baalbek on their way toward Syria on Muharram 28, 61/October 28,680, a small daughter of Imam al-Husayn (a) passed away and was buried there.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Tomb_of_Khawla

15 hours ago, Qa'im said:

(here is your trigger warning) (1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech has no ancient sources, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent, (3

This is a doubt which has been spread by so called reformist scholars who think that they are only people that can read documents & revered shia scholars before them  have been naive & uneducated people . 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ibn Tayyar]

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam your statement  is just cherry picking of your favorit part just to prove your point by any means which statement of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) has been mentioned in wahabi sites without mentioning statements of other revered shia scholars which generally they have said that prophet Muhammad (pbu) has had four daughters & four sons which three of them have been sons of Umm al Muminin  Khadija (sa) & one of them has been son of Umm al Muminin  Maria al-Qibtiyya  who all of them have passed away some time after their birth .

Anyway all shia scholars have called all daughters as daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in similar fashion of calling all wives of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as  Umm al Muminin  .

according to Sheikh Kulaini (رضي الله عنه) three of daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) have born before Mab'ath ( public announcing of begining his mission ) so then lady Fatima has born after  Mab'ath.

According to Sheikh Tabrisi (رضي الله عنه) all them have been his children without mentioning name of their mother (s) 

 

Ibn Shahr Ashub(رضي الله عنه) just has mentioned their names which he just has talked about birth of sons of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & neglected talking about  birth of his daughter which just only  has mentioned name of Umm al Muminin  Maria al-Qibtiyya  as mother of Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

Al-Tustari (رضي الله عنه) & Mamaqani (رضي الله عنه) have said there is no problem to call them as daughter of prophet Muhammad (pbu)

 

Sayed Abi al-Qasim Kufi has mentioned in a long statement that Zaynab & Ruqaya have been wives of Uthman as adopted daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu)

https://islam4u.com/ar/shobahat/هل-كان-للنبي-ص-بنات-غير-فاطمة-الزهراء-ع-؟

in conclusion there is not enough evidence about exact name of three daughters of prophet Muhammad (pbu) except lady Fatima (sa) anyway prophet Muhammad (pbu) has no problem with adopting children in similar fashion that he adopted Zayd (رضي الله عنه) as his step son which after revealing verse of holy Quran he has nullified inheriting adopted son from stepfather & in similar fashion nullified marriage of Zaynab & Ruqaya with sons of cursed Abu Sufyan . 

I'm not sure what you are saying brother, are you saying the evidence is conclusive or inconclusive?

Edited April 29, 2024 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

However, Nader Zaveri's obsessively rijal based methodology isn't necessarily the best and only option to separate the wheat from the chaff in historical matters.

It's about relying an totally unknown person which his portfolio & background  about Islamic matters is unknown likewise any random religious writer with fake id & portfolio which his work is work of random guy which has no scientific value or citation & etc which is only good for so called reformists who think that they are only wise guys who have created until now & previous scholars before them have been naive & uneducated people . 

2 hours ago, Qa'im said:

On this particular issue and in this book, rijal isn’t even the focus or the methodology used. 

really where is @Nader Zaveri  

Quote

Acknowledgments

Special thanks to Tural Islam, Ali Baker and Nader Zaveri for their support and encouragement. In particular, we express our profound gratitude to Ali Baker for his deep insights about the topic of mut’ah. May Allah bless our three brothers and all our loving brothers and sisters from the Shi’ah Imamiyyah and the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah

https://www.al-islam.org/nikah-al-mutah-zina-or-sunnah-toyib-olawuyi/acknowledgments

 

 

 

really where is @Nader Zaveri  

 

 

Edited April 29, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I'm not sure what you are saying brother, are you saying the evidence is conclusive or inconclusive?

This is not first time that statements of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) has been misued & misinterpreted by Wahabist which even some wahabi users have used his statemet in other threads in SC for refuting Imamate & infallibility because Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) methodology has been initiating something from logical & rationality approach which so then in conclusion Shia opponent & fighting with Ghulat of his era approve his logic so then after approving his logic people find most complete example & role model based on his logic in Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) without hatred or Ghuluw  which in this case he has made a statement which proves both of ideas based on viewpoint of reader of his statement . 

[EiE]

23 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Shiism should ultimately be about pursuing truth rather than simply defending a culture.

100%. Couldn't say it better.

 

23 hours ago, Qa'im said:

(1) the popular version of Sayyida Zaynab's speech has no ancient sources, (2) the popular version of Hadith al-Kisa' is also very recent, (3) the shrines of Khawla, Abu Lu'lu', Shahrbanu, and Mazar Sharif aren't real, (4) we know where Sayyida Fatima's grave is, (5) the third shahada in adhan was popularized in the Safavid period, (6) Things like Nadi `Ali and Khutbatul Bayan are also very late, (7) Common hadiths used like "Love of the nation is from faith (hub al-watan min al-iman)" are probably fabrications, (8) the crack in the Ka'ba is not related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), etc. etc.

I would like to hear more. Could you share some details on 1, 2, 4, and 8.

 

[Qa'im]

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

really where is @Nader Zaveri  

Obviously he has not been active in a long time. The book however is something he received some help in from a very reputable scholar that is mentioned in the conclusion. The references also speak for themselves, and anything else is grasping at straws. If you don't care for Zaveri, that is fine, but 4 daughters is also the view of modern scholars of sirah like Ayatullah Ja'far Subhani.

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's a proven miracle which has been related to Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام), which although of two major  destruction & reconstruction Kaaba during son cursed Ummayad era by son of zubayr & cursed Hajjaj Thaqafi it has remained intact although their efforts for hiding it which even now although all efforts of Al-Saud monarchy in name of restoration of Kaaba & filling it with different materials so then it has been  returned to original state of crack although using any material & technique for hiding it by Al-Saud monarchy which also this miracle & relation it to  has been verified Amir al-Mu'minin (عليه السلام) by all of reliable sources which Wahabist only could spread void doubts about it which their doubts have been refuted by both of Shia scholar & fair sunni scholars .

You're welcome to believe this, but (1) the Ka'ba was rebuilt in 605, 683, 693, and 1631 AD, not including periodic repairs. (2) Even if we were to accept the hadith about the crack from the Amali of Shaykh al-Saduq, it says that the back wall of the Ka'ba opened up (not the corner), and it says that the wall closed up, with no mention of a crack that remained. (3) no pre-modern scholar that I know of ever mentioned a miraculous crack, which would be a significant detail to leave out for ~1300 years, considering almost every Muslim visits Mecca (4) if the Saudis were hiding the crack, then they wouldn't be showing it on national television every time the kiswa is changed every year.

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

about Shrine of Khawla 

Quote

Unfortunately, just because many people in Baalbek believe that a daughter of Husayn (عليه السلام) is buried there, it does not mean that it is true. This is what I mean by defending a culture rather than pursuing truth. Not only is there no record of a Khawla, the earliest record of the shrine in the same link you posted is an English painting from 1757. That is over a millennium after the events. I understand that it is usually hard to prove something definitively, but this is almost in the same category as other Masjid Uncle Lore ™.

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is a doubt which has been spread by so called reformist scholars who think that they are only people that can read documents & revered shia scholars before them  have been naive & uneducated people . 

It should be very easy then to provide ancient sources.

[GEU_40]

This particular conclusion in the book,

"The amount of aHaadeeth that are there, as well as all of them going through different chain of narrators, thus making it mutawaatir (widely narrated), meaning the chances of it being a fabrication is inconceivable and impossible."

Similar reasoning can be used to to put up a case that the mushaf we have today has some words deleted at the very least. I wouldn't use this particular line of reasoning.

Also, his reasoning that those who deny that they are his biological daughters are hurting the messenger (and thus deserving of being cursed in this world and the next) is way overboard. You might as well curse almost every sunni who denies Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام)) is the son of Imam Hasan Askari ((عليه السلام)).

Aside from these personal conclusions, this is a solid book.

[hawdini]

3 hours ago, Qa'im said:

You're welcome to believe this, but (1) the Ka'ba was rebuilt in 605, 683, 693, and 1631 AD, not including periodic repairs. (2) Even if we were to accept the hadith about the crack from the Amali of Shaykh al-Saduq, it says that the back wall of the Ka'ba opened up (not the corner), and it says that the wall closed up, with no mention of a crack that remained. (3) no pre-modern scholar that I know of ever mentioned a miraculous crack, which would be a significant detail to leave out for ~1300 years, considering almost every Muslim visits Mecca (4) if the Saudis were hiding the crack, then they wouldn't be showing it on national television every time the kiswa is changed every year.

OKay but who cares about the crack, what we care about is that he was born in the kaaba, you make it seem like that was not the case

[Qa'im]

2 hours ago, hawdini said:

OKay but who cares about the crack, what we care about is that he was born in the kaaba, you make it seem like that was not the case

I did not say that and a lot of people care about the crack. Here is just one example, you can find many others online:

 

[Guest bingi]

Yo @Qa'im tell us what created the crack and y they dont fix it.

[Qa'im]

1 hour ago, Guest bingi said:

Yo @Qa'im tell us what created the crack and y they dont fix it.

If I don’t know the cause of the crack, does that definitively prove that it is from a miracle 1400 years ago? It is a minor crack in an old building in a part of the world with sandstorms and such. If it is eventually fixed someday, does that mean that the Wahabis win?

This reminds me of a Reddit thread where some random person found an Arabic letter in a bottle. It turns out that the letter was from a woman addressing Imam al-Mahdi. The fact that a random person intercepted this letter caused some people to doubt Shiism, instead of just doubting that practice (or that instance of that practice). We shouldn’t make mountains out of molehills.

[Ibn Tayyar]

21 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is not first time that statements of Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) has been misued & misinterpreted by Wahabist which even some wahabi users have used his statemet in other threads in SC for refuting Imamate & infallibility because Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) methodology has been initiating something from logical & rationality approach which so then in conclusion Shia opponent & fighting with Ghulat of his era approve his logic so then after approving his logic people find most complete example & role model based on his logic in Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) without hatred or Ghuluw  which in this case he has made a statement which proves both of ideas based on viewpoint of reader of his statement . 

Okay, I understand what you are saying now. Thank you brother.

Edited April 30, 2024 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ibn Tayyar]

edit

Edited April 30, 2024 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

You're welcome to believe this, but (1) the Ka'ba was rebuilt in 605, 683, 693, and 1631 AD, not including periodic repairs. (2) Even if we were to accept the hadith about the crack from the Amali of Shaykh al-Saduq, it says that the back wall of the Ka'ba opened up (not the corner), and it says that the wall closed up, with no mention of a crack that remained. (3) no pre-modern scholar that I know of ever mentioned a miraculous crack, which would be a significant detail to leave out for ~1300 years, considering almost every Muslim visits Mecca (4)

Salam you are welcome to believe this or not too although (1) i have mentioned two famous destructions of Kaaba by cursed Ummayads which after first time it has been rebuilt by Ibn Zubayr so then after second destruction by cursed Hajjaj so then it has been rebuilt by him again  (2) & (3) when pre modern scholars likewise Shaykh al-Saduq (رضي الله عنه) in Ameli have talked about the miracle , they have responded to questions about reason of existence of crack when reason of it has been denied or kept as secret by opponents of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) ; for example if you have a car crash even after total repair so then some signs of crash will remain in hidden corner although in this case crack has been preserved by will of Allah to show a great unrefutable sign to everyone 

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

(4) if the Saudis were hiding the crack, then they wouldn't be showing it on national television every time the kiswa is changed every year.

(4) Saudis are too stupid that they are repeating  tradition of Egyptians about making Kiswa & showing miraculous crack without changing anything in egyptian model of Kiswa ; which until 1962 the Kiswa has been produced by Egypt which for showing objection with Egypt  so then Malik Abdul Aziz  the Saudi king has orderd building a special workshop in KSA in 1924 for making it which   in year 1932 it has been made by Saudis & Indians in KSA ; which again in 1958 Egypt has shown it's propensity for making it again which Malik Abdul Aziz [Al-Saud] has agreed with it but again  in 1961 due to political tensions Egypt has refrained from preparing it so then again working of special workshop has initiated again in KSA  since 1964 by order of  Malik Abdul Aziz  the Saudi king  until now ; which  The Kiswa has been produced by KSA but KSA just has done copy cat from Egyptian formulas of making the Kiswa until now which one of Egyptian formulas for making the Kiswa has been showing the miraculous crack while KSA is repeating it without questioning reason behind it . 

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/پرده_کعبه

 

Edited April 30, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

It should be very easy then to provide ancient sources.

Salam ancient source have been provided in countless debates with Wahabi deniers although they have denied reliable ancient sources  but again in similar fashion so called Shia reformists are following procedure of Wahabi deniers about not accepting reliable ancient sources. 

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Unfortunately, just because many people in Baalbek believe that a daughter of Husayn (عليه السلام) is buried there, it does not mean that it is true. This is what I mean by defending a culture rather than pursuing truth. Not only is there no record of a Khawla, the earliest record of the shrine in the same link you posted is an English painting from 1757. That is over a millennium after the events. I understand that it is usually hard to prove something definitively, but this is almost in the same category as other Masjid Uncle Lore ™.

I understand your point anyway even She has not buried there but it has a symbolical meaning which people are worshiping Allah & follow undistorted traditions without committing Shirk or something likewise that likewise rest of replicas of Imam Bargahs .

13 hours ago, Qa'im said:

Obviously he has not been active in a long time. The book however is something he received some help in from a very reputable scholar that is mentioned in the conclusion. The references also speak for themselves, and anything else is grasping at straws. If you don't care for Zaveri, that is fine, but 4 daughters is also the view of modern scholars of sirah like Ayatullah Ja'far Subhani.

I have mentioned that Shia scholars have different viewpoints about it which all of them have called  all 4 of them as daughters of prophet (pbu) without too much focusing on blood relation  which you must prove your claim about Ayatullah Ja'far Subhani also reffering to a unknown person with vague intentions likewise @Nader Zaveri by person likewise you is likewise following of uneducated person by a knowledgeable person which Zaveri, is totally unknown person with vague intentions even in comparison with you so therefore he is totally nobody in comparison with other knowledgeable Shia scholars . 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, hawdini said:

OKay but who cares about the crack, what we care about is that he was born in the kaaba, you make it seem like that was not the case

Salam it has many secrets which most of it's reasons are spiritual reasons likewise why we are prostrating toward Kaab which in similar fashion Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & other infallible Imams have been mentioned as Kaaba too which for example the crack is an unrefutable  miraculous sign about Imamate specially about  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which a clear sign that every believer who is prostrating toward Kaaba in each Namaz (Salah) so then must accepts Imamate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & rest of infallible Imams because sign of Imamate has been merged with Kaaba which also lady Mayam for giving birth to prophet Isa (sa) has been forced by Allah to leave temple as house of Allah at her time so then gives birth to prophet Isa (عليه السلام) in a remote blessed place but mother of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been invited to house of Allah for giving birth to Amir Al-Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is only person who has been born in house of Allah by order & invitation of Allah  which from creation of prophet Adam until judgment day nobody has this unique devine privilege . 

About Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) which he has responded based on Taqyyia in a way that Ghulat can not use his statement for insulting to Sunni reverd figures specially  Uthman the third sunni caliph who even during era of sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) , Uthman has staunch anti shia fans ;  because according to Ghulat if Uthman did not marry with real daughter of prophet (pbu) so therefore they could use it for insulting to Uthman so then it would cause great danger & trouble for Shia muslims by taunch anti shia fans of Uthman  but in our era it's not the case so therefore logical response about proving that all 3 daughters except except lady Fatiam (sa) have not blood relation to prophet Muahmmad (pbu) has no relation to Ghulat also doesn't cause harm to Shia muslims .