The Interactions between the Seen and Unseen

[the-truth123]

Salaam all, 

I hope you're well.

I have some questions I've been grappling with, for those more philosophically and scientifically inclined.

An important idea in Islam is that there is more to Existence than just the physical. We, along with other types of theists, believe in a superposition of sorts between the physical realm we know of and other "planes of existence" - and we explicitly denounce the notion of physicalism (where every phenomenon is explainable in purely material terms). We believe, for example, that consciousness cannot arise from unconscious matter. And we believe that there are beings in these non-physical planes of existence, such as angels and jinn, as described in revelation and by Ahl al-Bayt.

My questions revolve around how interactions between the physical and non-physical realms are mediated such that they leave behind no empirically detectable trace. In our belief, jinn are capable of materially interacting with the physical world, as are angels. But a challenge made against us is as follows: the existence of these supernatural beings and realms was posited to explain unexplainable physical phenomena, but now that modern science is increasingly able to explain the previously unexplainable, we do not need to invoke non-physical causes. Further, the challenge purports that it is contradictory to suggest that these non-physical realms and non-physical entities can affect us and/or the physical realm, yet somehow evade all empirical detection and measurement.

How do we coherently argue against this challenge? The challenge is applicable to our conception of miracles too as a super-natural physical phenomenon with a non-physical cause. Any thoughts would be helpful here, or any recommended discussions and readings already had on this subject (either in arabic or english) too.

Edited April 21, 2024 by the-truth123

[the-truth123]

Anyone have any thoughts around this or material I could read that treats this issue in detail? I suspect it'll exist somewhere in the realm of philosophical studies; substantiating the effect of non-physical causes on the physical realm. Many thanks!

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:00 AM, the-truth123 said:

or any recommended discussions and readings already had on this subject (either in arabic or english) too.

Salam it's a good point however unfortunately most of articles & books about this matter are in Persian/Farsi which is mixed with scholarly level Arabic which understanding it at least needs passing basic level in any Hawza which you only find helpful books in hard copy books whic have not translated to english because most of expression in books has no equivalent in English or any other westerner language .

[Azadeh307]

[Azadeh307]

The invisible realm, “Malakut,” is mentioned in the Quran 4 times. Its existence is not dependent upon how advanced science may be since science exists in the realm of the mulk. 

[PureExistence1]

On 4/21/2024 at 2:30 PM, the-truth123 said:

yet somehow evade all empirical detection and measurement.

Salaam, they evade detection because they are of the META physical world/beyond the detection of the instruments and other means we use in the physical world.

Send an email to Dr Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar at:

Fbsekaleshfar@gmail.com

You can find his lectures on you tube first so you can get an idea of the level and subject matter he teaches. This is right up his alley, so to speak.

 

Edited July 30, 2024 by PureExistence1

[the-truth123]

Thank you all for the responses, and apologies for the delay in getting back! I've not been on shiachat a long while. 

On 7/29/2024 at 6:25 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's a good point however unfortunately most of articles & books about this matter are in Persian/Farsi which is mixed with scholarly level Arabic which understanding it at least needs passing basic level in any Hawza which you only find helpful books in hard copy books whic have not translated to english because most of expression in books has no equivalent in English or any other westerner language .

Regarding this, would you mind linking me to the relevant articles/books, please? If in arabic then that's fine, if in farsi then I'll present them to my friends to do the hard work :). I've had a hard time finding anything directly related to the points I'm interested in - most content only broaches this at the surface level but western discourse has rather advanced takes. I'm certain our ulema, especially the thinkers and theologians or philosophers have wrestled with this. E.g. the ability for some, under certain conditions, to perceive jinn or the effects of angels. That is the point where the meta-physical translates to the physical. At that intersection, how is it that the physical (e.g. a human) can perceive those meta-physical influences? How is that meta-physical force mediated to influence the physical world when, as the respected respondents above have pointed out, the meta-physical realm is beyond the detection of physical means/instrumentation?

Edited February 13 by the-truth123

[PureExistence1]

5 hours ago, the-truth123 said:

thinkers and theologians or philosophers have wrestled with this. E.g. the ability for some, under certain conditions, to perceive jinn or the effects of angels. That is the point where the meta-physical translates to the physical. At that intersection, how is it that the physical (e.g. a human) can perceive those meta-physical influences? How is that meta-physical force mediated to influence the physical world when, as the respected respondents above have pointed out, the meta-physical realm is beyond the detection of physical means/instrumentation?

Salaam bro/sis,

Please send your queries to Sheilh Sekaleshfar at: fbsekaleshfar@gmail.com

This is precisely his department and he has been at hawzah in Qom for like 20 years, teaches there, speaks fluent english and farsi and has a great command on what the arabic says...lol, he can spend hours discussing a one letter difference in an arabic word. His specialty is irfan/metaphysics etc.

Hes the scholar for this..

[the-truth123]

 

14 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam bro/sis,

Please send your queries to Sheilh Sekaleshfar at: fbsekaleshfar@gmail.com

This is precisely his department and he has been at hawzah in Qom for like 20 years, teaches there, speaks fluent english and farsi and has a great command on what the arabic says...lol, he can spend hours discussing a one letter difference in an arabic word. His specialty is irfan/metaphysics etc.

Hes the scholar for this..

Wasalam, I shall do that, thank you for the contact!