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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Okay, so here we go 

evryone on here finna hate me after this bcuz ik what the sc community is like but im gnna say this anyway 

 

IN the west, we have interest. In all (almost) every. single. transaction. 

now, many people FAIL to understand. that in the west living without interest is PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you wish to live as a FAQIR or sumthin and idk about u but i sure as Hell DONT 

if something is necessary for us to function in society then whats the issue. Like be fr. I AM AWARE that riba is usury and haram and terrible I KNOW! HOWEVER,

living in the west

IT IS NECESSARY AND UNAVOIDABLE 

and as we know in islam if something exists which we legit cannot function without due to the fact that the entire society and nation is built upon it in an unavoidable fashion. such thing is permissible, this is obvious cuz allah doesnt want us going to live as malangs (ascetics) in the streets or countryside LOL. 

I just simply cant fathom how some people will still say "loans are haram" or "mortgage is haram" or "working in banking deals "or"credit card with interest are haram"etc 

like mate use ur brain??? Just cuz YOU are for some reason okay with living so "humbly" as to not engage in ANY such thing an  not move out ur moms basement or live in a 1 bed rent or a homless shelter doesnt mean everyone else has to bruv. OR just cuz u LIVE in a muslim nation DOESNT MEAN we all do live in nations without interest in every part of life. cuz buddy we LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE IT IS BRUV

BEFORE someone says "oh u can take loans or pay interest on banking deals at work or pay interest on credit cards IF YOU DO IT with the INTENTION of not paying it back and as a transaction without return even if u do pay it back" this is frankly NONSENSE im sorry! 

BE HONEST BE FOR REAL MATE purposely changing ur NIYYAH to pretend ur not gonna pay it back then the banks like pay it back  and ur like "oh wow i had totally not intended to but now im being forced oh no aaaaa guess i gotta pay the interest" meanwhile u knew DAMN WELL that u were gonna pay it back makes ZERO ZERO SENSE!! THINK ABOUT IT 

 

this is the equivalent of me picking up alcohol and pretendining i dont know its alcoholic drink it and say oh I DIDNT KNOW liike be fr it doesnt make any sense 

its simple 

in the west, WE HAVE TO PAY AND RECIEVE interest!!! YOU KNOW IT AND SO DO I! so stop avoiding the blatant truth buddy. 

i personally for any living in the west living BELIEVE 

TAKING A LOAN ISNT HARAM YOU NEED THEM (UNLESS ITS FOR SOMETHING DUMB LIKE IDK A LOAN FOR A SHIRT OR SMTH LOL ) 

CREDIT CARDS WITH INTERST ARENT HARAM  because; 

1) ur paying the money to the bank not one single person its an entitiy who you dont know personally at all an unknown owner malik al majhul i think is what its called 

2) working in banking with interst isnt haram IN THE WEST not everywhere of course.  its just a job ur gonna deal in the interest no matter what and its a way of earning money 

BIGGEST POINT HERE 

 

READ THE WHOLE THING DONT RAGE 

it is completley NORMAL and fully ACCEPTED almost compulsory to deal with interst in the WEST therefore due to its complete necessitty its not HARAM 

obviously living in  a muslim nation for example is a diff story. 

so imma become a banker without ppl telling me im a kaffir for it 

and imma take a loan OR GET AN AMEX card to BUILD A GOOD CREDIT SCORE AND PAY FOR THINGS I CANT INSTANTLY AFFORD and build a credit score for a rainy day or to buy a nice house or car one day. 

If i need to take a loan for car house education investment 

or invest in bonds options forex etfs futures stocks crypto etc i see no problem in this. 

FURTHERMORE MANY MANY SCHOLARS AGREE THAT THE INTEREST WE HAVE TODAY IN THE WEST IS NOT THE RIBA / USURY THAT IS REFEREED TO IN THE QURAN / HADITH!!!!

HOWEVER, if I ever move to a muslim nation insha'allah then yes its a different story

WARNING: IM TALKING ABOUT IN REGARDS TO GIVING AND RECIEVING INTERST IN NON MUSLIM NATIONS WHERE IT IS NORMAL AND NOT SEEN AS USURY IM NOT SAYING ITS UNIVERSALLY OKAY I WOULD NEVER SAY SUCH THINGS! AND IM TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH A NON MUSLIM BANK. SO LIL DISCLAIMER

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21 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

now, many people FAIL to understand. that in the west living without interest is PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you wish to live as a FAQIR or sumthin and idk about u but i sure as Hell DONT 

Not true, millions of people manage it just fine. 

I agree that a detailed discussion about interest is needed, and simply saying 'don't have the niyyah to pay it' isn't the real answer, but I can't agree that it is a necessity.  

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1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Not true, millions of people manage it just fine. 

I agree that a detailed discussion about interest is needed, and simply saying 'don't have the niyyah to pay it' isn't the real answer, but I can't agree that it is a necessity.  

honestly depends maybe somewhere like eastern euro or smth it wouldnt be a necessity, but in UK and USA (two main nations of discussion here) it is necessary i say this as a uk resident since birth. so ik what im on about. trust me some things u cant avoid it 

1) Housing

2) credit cards 

3) Some form of long term or short term investments such as equity, pensions, insurances, bonds etc.

4) sum short term investments e.g. bonds etfs futures forex 

5) some jobs. e.g. some finance jobs. However, my belief is working such a job would be DISCOURAGED but NOT HARAM PROVIDING YOU ARE LIVING IN A NON MUSLIM COUNTRY, WITH A NON MUSLIM GOVERNMENT, WITH A NON MUSLIM BANK. ither wise it prolly be forbidden

reason i believe its permissble is bcoz almost ALL ulema apply the general fiqhi principal that the interst used today in the west is

1) COMPLETLEY NORMAL, ACCEPTED AND PERMISSIBLE TO THEM NOT SEEN AS USURY OR UNFAIRNESS, THEFT OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER 

2) It MIGHT actually NOT be the interest mentioned as forbidden in the QURAN either. 

we try our best out here. but we WILL use interest. WE will KNOW we are usuing it we WILL take it we WILL give it we WILL work in it around it and deals through it in the WEST. However, we try our best to minimise it when possible E.G. not taking a loan for something dumb like to get RTX 4090 TI GPU or smthin LOL 

also some ppl say investments like GOLD, JEWELERY, BULLION, LAND, PROPERTY ETC is interest im sorry this is false no way im believing in this.

I inivest in gold, stocks, forex or crypto or properties. their value rises in society due to Supply and demand as well as market trends so i sell them when they are needed more this is NOT interest in any way it is a fair transaction 

 

also we need more expansion on the point that paying interest (when needed/ even semi-necesarry) to malik ul mahjul or the unkown owner, e.g. a corparate entity like a bank IS PERMISSBLE . 

I still plan to work in Goldman sachs or Jp morgan one day, front office in capital managment, equity or Mergers and acquistions . even sales and trading. Where interest MAY be involved but IS NOT the focal point of the job BUT AGAIN 

these are NON MUSLIM banks 

in NON MUSLIM countries 

with NON MUSLIM governments

and NON MUSLIM VALUES, BELIEFS AND TRADTIONS 

and allah knows best, oft forgiving, compassionate understanding and merciful is he 

 

salaam

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mind u to expand on the above point, the reason Ulema say that  Interest dealings (especially taking it from them) with non muslims in non muslim nations ISNT haram is because to them it is a fair transaction and I CAN atleast sort of see why

 

the bank lends u money for a mortgatge

they now have LESS money due to the loan

u BUY a house a product 

you pay them back 20% more than you took, 

their profit is 20% for the product which in the END would NOT be possible without their loan REGARDLESS OF the middle man E.G. ESTATE AGENT LANDLORD, ETC.

you are compensating a service and less directly so, a PRODUCT this is the logic the non muslims use so for them there is NUTTIN wrong with it AT ALL 

not saying i FULLY agree but frankly, their logic is MOSTLY sound. so therefore, ulema say it is normal for them so isnt haram in some cases for us to deal with.

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(btw bonus point here may not be fully on topic remember allah says to like integrate ourselves with them in such a way to the extent they can no longer distinguish us)

 

not fully related but sorta is

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Is a fixed rate mortgage even considered interest to begin with? That is the only loan that I think is an absolute necessity in the West.

Car payments, credit card payment, and arguably college loans are a different story. Besides the haram/halal debate, they are one of the biggest reason that people stay middle class and live paycheck to paycheck under a lot of financial stress.

If you want to end up with a net worth of a million dollars or more, even if you have an average income, you always buy used cars and cut up your credit cards.

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6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

honestly depends maybe somewhere like eastern euro or smth it wouldnt be a necessity, but in UK and USA (two main nations of discussion here) it is necessary i say this as a uk resident since birth. so ik what im on about. trust me some things u cant avoid it 

Disagree, I know many in both nations who have avoided it

 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

1) Housing

Renting a house does not require interest 

 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

2) credit cards

If you pay your bill on time you will not pay any additional interest 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

3) Some form of long term or short term investments such as equity, pensions, insurances, bonds etc.

None of these are requirements or necessities. Instead you can invest in a Halal business, there are thousands of them in both countries. Either way, investment is not at all a necessity. 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

 

4) sum short term investments e.g. bonds etfs futures forex 

As above 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

5) some jobs. e.g. some finance jobs

There are several other jobs available, so again not a necessity. 

6 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

btw bonus point here may not be fully on topic remember allah says to like integrate ourselves with them in such a way to the extent they can no longer distinguish us)

Which ayah of the Quran? 

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9 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

mind u to expand on the above point, the reason Ulema say that  Interest dealings (especially taking it from them) with non muslims in non muslim nations ISNT haram is because to them it is a fair transaction and I CAN atleast sort of see why

 

the bank lends u money for a mortgatge

they now have LESS money due to the loan

u BUY a house a product 

you pay them back 20% more than you took, 

their profit is 20% for the product which in the END would NOT be possible without their loan REGARDLESS OF the middle man like here E.G. ESTATE AGENT LANDLORD, ETC.

you are compensating a service and less directly so, a PRODUCT this is the logic the non muslims use so for them there is NUTTIN wrong with it AT ALL 

not saying i FULLY agree but frankly, their logic is MOSTLY sound. so therefore, ulema say it is normal for them so isnt haram in some cases for us to deal with.

Are there any alternative financial instruments that can be used instead of traditional bank loans? 

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On 4/17/2024 at 11:23 PM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

IN the west, we have interest. In all (almost) every. single. transaction.

You are going to have to justify statements such as this one if you want the discussion to be fruitful.

 

On 4/17/2024 at 11:23 PM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

now, many people FAIL to understand. that in the west living without interest is PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you wish to live as a FAQIR or sumthin and idk about u but i sure as Hell DONT

I would reverse this and say that it can help your lifestyle immeasurably to be an owner of capital rather than in debt.

 

The question I have had that no one has answered is whether Islamic injunctions are against paying positive nominal interest or real interest (i.e. taking inflation into account). Because the latter can often be negative (as is has been the case very recently in many economies). In the UK for example you can borrow at 3%, while inflation is closer to 10%.

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12 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

mind u to expand on the above point, the reason Ulema say that  Interest dealings (especially taking it from them) with non muslims in non muslim nations ISNT haram is because to them it is a fair transaction and I CAN atleast sort of see why

 

the bank lends u money for a mortgatge

they now have LESS money due to the loan

u BUY a house a product 

you pay them back 20% more than you took, 

their profit is 20% for the product which in the END would NOT be possible without their loan REGARDLESS OF the middle man E.G. ESTATE AGENT LANDLORD, ETC.

you are compensating a service and less directly so, a PRODUCT this is the logic the non muslims use so for them there is NUTTIN wrong with it AT ALL 

not saying i FULLY agree but frankly, their logic is MOSTLY sound. so therefore, ulema say it is normal for them so isnt haram in some cases for us to deal with.

Sa.

So many issues with your OP but in regards to the bank having less money after loaning you money.....well that's not strictly true. They make money out of thin air practically (fractional reserve banking) and then give that money as a loan etc etc

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On 4/19/2024 at 10:57 AM, gajarkahalva said:

Sa.

So many issues with your OP but in regards to the bank having less money after loaning you money.....well that's not strictly true. They make money out of thin air practically (fractional reserve banking) and then give that money as a loan etc etc

yes but thats to a limit mate, the economy still exists and hasnt collapsed lol

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On 4/19/2024 at 9:52 AM, Haji 2003 said:

You are going to have to justify statements such as this one if you want the discussion to be fruitful.

 

I would reverse this and say that it can help your lifestyle immeasurably to be an owner of capital rather than in debt.

 

The question I have had that no one has answered is whether Islamic injunctions are against paying positive nominal interest or real interest (i.e. taking inflation into account). Because the latter can often be negative (as is has been the case very recently in many economies). In the UK for example you can borrow at 3%, while inflation is closer to 10%.

agreed this is a great question. 

sometimes debt is necessary it can lead to more capital and higher equity on assets later on

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On 4/19/2024 at 5:26 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

Disagree, I know many in both nations who have avoided it

 

Renting a house does not require interest 

 

If you pay your bill on time you will not pay any additional interest 

None of these are requirements or necessities. Instead you can invest in a Halal business, there are thousands of them in both countries. Either way, investment is not at all a necessity. 

As above 

There are several other jobs available, so again not a necessity. 

Which ayah of the Quran? 

there many impracticalities when renting brother.

ESPEICALLY when you have a WIFE and kids

Allah only wants ease. Not to burden us! Salaam

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On 4/19/2024 at 8:44 AM, SelBil said:

Are there any alternative financial instruments that can be used instead of traditional bank loans? 

not many sadly, 

U can invest early on in a savings account which will give YOU the interest instead but generally this will add a lil money not much

invest in gold, stocks and bonds. Howeer, u need capital to do this anyway

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On 4/19/2024 at 5:05 AM, Sabrejet said:

Is a fixed rate mortgage even considered interest to begin with? That is the only loan that I think is an absolute necessity in the West.

Car payments, credit card payment, and arguably college loans are a different story. Besides the haram/halal debate, they are one of the biggest reason that people stay middle class and live paycheck to paycheck under a lot of financial stress.

If you want to end up with a net worth of a million dollars or more, even if you have an average income, you always buy used cars and cut up your credit cards.

true but car payments aren;t even haram LOL check the fatwas 

as for education i dont believe it is haram either. it is for your education, to learn, acquire knowledge and stand up on ones feet to provide in the future. This point was made by other bothers too

however on ur last point i see where ur coming from

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4 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

sometimes debt is necessary it can lead to more capital

No way can happen if you spend it on consumer goods the way you suggested at the start.

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On 4/19/2024 at 5:05 AM, Sabrejet said:

If you want to end up with a net worth of a million dollars or more, even if you have an average income, you always buy used cars and cut up your credit cards.

We have previously discussed this. And you are indeed correct.

For many car manufacturers, the profit of a car comes not from the sale of the car, but the financing that goes with it. Buy secondhand, pay cash, and you'll have a much better deal.

The people who seem to have the most problems with this argument are Americans, whose culture seems to be based on buying the biggest and baddest car that they can possibly afford. And by afford, I mean make the monthly repayments (including interest).

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alright i checked on al islam and moulana musawi, verifies all i said. go check urself if u want, he said taking or giving out such loans of interest or savings accounts, payments of interests are completley fine, if done with non muslim banks. :) @staff u can close the thread

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As sal-am Allez Koom wa Remmer Tuller  wa baracar to you (say it like an English revert except for the Allez part which is French) 

Brother I think this issue definitely needs to be addressed. And as my Salafi sisters love to say ALLAHUMMA BAARIK , to you for bringing this to everyones attention. See the problem is, and I can only speak for myself, I struggled with this issue since I was a teenager. Growing up I was very conflicted, but I always maintained my code of conduct and principles eventually. Even if I did something wrong, I would do my best to correct it, however upon reading several books, (which if you would like the names of I am happy to share them with you) I suddenly defaulted back to customs and etiquettes I may have forgotten because of being too much involved in this society. Now I can safely say as a mature man Alhamdulillah, my interest in the west has decreased and this is why I am looking to relocate inshallah. 

With duas and salam

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On 4/18/2024 at 5:23 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

Okay, so here we go 

evryone on here finna hate me after this bcuz ik what the sc community is like but im gnna say this anyway 

 

IN the west, we have interest. In all (almost) every. single. transaction. 

now, many people FAIL to understand. that in the west living without interest is PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you wish to live as a FAQIR or sumthin and idk about u but i sure as Hell DONT 

if something is necessary for us to function in society then whats the issue. Like be fr. I AM AWARE that riba is usury and haram and terrible I KNOW! HOWEVER,

living in the west

IT IS NECESSARY AND UNAVOIDABLE 

and as we know in islam if something exists which we legit cannot function without due to the fact that the entire society and nation is built upon it in an unavoidable fashion. such thing is permissible, this is obvious cuz allah doesnt want us going to live as malangs (ascetics) in the streets or countryside LOL. 

I just simply cant fathom how some people will still say "loans are haram" or "mortgage is haram" or "working in banking deals "or"credit card with interest are haram"etc 

like mate use ur brain??? Just cuz YOU are for some reason okay with living so "humbly" as to not engage in ANY such thing an  not move out ur moms basement or live in a 1 bed rent or a homless shelter doesnt mean everyone else has to bruv. OR just cuz u LIVE in a muslim nation DOESNT MEAN we all do live in nations without interest in every part of life. cuz buddy we LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE IT IS BRUV

BEFORE someone says "oh u can take loans or pay interest on banking deals at work or pay interest on credit cards IF YOU DO IT with the INTENTION of not paying it back and as a transaction without return even if u do pay it back" this is frankly NONSENSE im sorry! 

BE HONEST BE FOR REAL MATE purposely changing ur NIYYAH to pretend ur not gonna pay it back then the banks like pay it back  and ur like "oh wow i had totally not intended to but now im being forced oh no aaaaa guess i gotta pay the interest" meanwhile u knew DAMN WELL that u were gonna pay it back makes ZERO ZERO SENSE!! THINK ABOUT IT 

 

this is the equivalent of me picking up alcohol and pretendining i dont know its alcoholic drink it and say oh I DIDNT KNOW liike be fr it doesnt make any sense 

its simple 

in the west, WE HAVE TO PAY AND RECIEVE interest!!! YOU KNOW IT AND SO DO I! so stop avoiding the blatant truth buddy. 

i personally for any living in the west living BELIEVE 

TAKING A LOAN ISNT HARAM YOU NEED THEM (UNLESS ITS FOR SOMETHING DUMB LIKE IDK A LOAN FOR A SHIRT OR SMTH LOL ) 

CREDIT CARDS WITH INTERST ARENT HARAM  because; 

1) ur paying the money to the bank not one single person its an entitiy who you dont know personally at all an unknown owner malik al majhul i think is what its called 

2) working in banking with interst isnt haram IN THE WEST not everywhere of course.  its just a job ur gonna deal in the interest no matter what and its a way of earning money 

BIGGEST POINT HERE 

 

READ THE WHOLE THING DONT RAGE 

it is completley NORMAL and fully ACCEPTED almost compulsory to deal with interst in the WEST therefore due to its complete necessitty its not HARAM 

obviously living in  a muslim nation for example is a diff story. 

so imma become a banker without ppl telling me im a kaffir for it 

and imma take a loan OR GET AN AMEX card to BUILD A GOOD CREDIT SCORE AND PAY FOR THINGS I CANT INSTANTLY AFFORD and build a credit score for a rainy day or to buy a nice house or car one day. 

If i need to take a loan for car house education investment 

or invest in bonds options forex etfs futures stocks crypto etc i see no problem in this. 

FURTHERMORE MANY MANY SCHOLARS AGREE THAT THE INTEREST WE HAVE TODAY IN THE WEST IS NOT THE RIBA / USURY THAT IS REFEREED TO IN THE QURAN / HADITH!!!!

HOWEVER, if I ever move to a muslim nation insha'allah then yes its a different story

WARNING: IM TALKING ABOUT IN REGARDS TO GIVING AND RECIEVING INTERST IN NON MUSLIM NATIONS WHERE IT IS NORMAL AND NOT SEEN AS USURY IM NOT SAYING ITS UNIVERSALLY OKAY I WOULD NEVER SAY SUCH THINGS! AND IM TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH A NON MUSLIM BANK. SO LIL DISCLAIMER

I cannot imagine the difficulties of not using credit cards. In my country there's a common saying, "if you don't have the money then don't buy it." But idk over there in Western countries it might be different. Hence, I'm only going to comment on the "receiving interest" part. For example if you put your money in bank and they give you interest, although it might be different in my country and in your country, I want to share readings that might be relevant.

You can read Sistani's rulings on this: Interest - Question & Answer - The Official Website of the Office of His Eminence Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Husseini Al-Sistani
You can also read Khamenei's rulings: Practical Laws of Islam :: Leader.ir
Khamenei's links are a bit difficult to copy and read right to the riba-related rulings, so I copied and pasted some. Hope it helps:

Q1611. Is ribā ḥarām across the board, i.e. for all legal/personal entities, or are there special cases?
A: Generally speaking, ribā is ḥarām, except for a ribā-bearing loan between a father and his child, between a man and his wife, and that taken by a Muslim from a non-Muslim who is not dhimmī.
 
Q1903. If some of the shareholders of the bank are Muslim, is it permissible to receive the interest?
A: There is no objection to receiving interest from the shares of non-Muslims. It is not permissible to receive interest from the share of a Muslim. That is, where depositing the money with the bank is with the condition of getting interest.

 

Q1912. What should become of the dealings with banks of all sorts that exist in Muslim countries, among which are banks owned by repressive regimes, non-Muslim countries, or privately owned ones, whether by Muslims or non-Muslims?
A: There is no objection to being party to any shar‘ī and permissible transaction conducted with the banks. As for ribā-based transactions and taking ribā from Muslim banks or institutions, they are not permissible unless the capital of the bank is owned by non-Muslims.
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Posted (edited)
On 4/19/2024 at 1:17 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

these are NON MUSLIM banks 

in NON MUSLIM countries 

with NON MUSLIM governments

and NON MUSLIM VALUES, BELIEFS AND TRADTIONS 

Salam but you are a muslim .

On 4/18/2024 at 1:53 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

"loans are haram" or "mortgage is haram" or "working in banking deals "or"credit card with interest are haram"etc 

These are not haram if done based on Islamic rulings which   some  Islamic  banking deals are available .

On 4/19/2024 at 1:17 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

reason i believe its permissble is bcoz almost ALL ulema apply the general fiqhi principal that the interst used today in the west is

1) COMPLETLEY NORMAL, ACCEPTED AND PERMISSIBLE TO THEM NOT SEEN AS USURY OR UNFAIRNESS, THEFT OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER 

2) It MIGHT actually NOT be the interest mentioned as forbidden in the QURAN either. 

1)it's a forced procedure which currently there is no alternative for it 

2)This is actually interest that has been mentioned in the Quran but it's likewise eating meat of pork for surviving .

On 4/20/2024 at 6:58 PM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

yes but thats to a limit mate, the economy still exists and hasnt collapsed lol

This is your illusion which number of financial experts who agree that economy is collapsing is increasing anyway currently we enjoy financial collapsing likewise jumping from a waterfall to an unknown depth .

On 4/19/2024 at 1:17 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

I still plan to work in Goldman sachs or Jp morgan one day, front office in capital managment, equity or Mergers and acquistions . even sales and trading. Where interest MAY be involved but IS NOT the focal point of the job BUT AGAIN 

Your plan must be working in an Islamic bank or even establishing first Islamic bank inshaAllah.

On 4/18/2024 at 1:53 AM, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

CREDIT CARDS WITH INTERST ARENT HARAM  because; 

1) ur paying the money to the bank not one single person its an entitiy who you dont know personally at all an unknown owner malik al majhul i think is what its called 

2) working in banking with interst isnt haram IN THE WEST not everywhere of course.  its just a job ur gonna deal in the interest no matter what and its a way of earning money 

1)Paying interest whether to a person or or a bank is Haram which playing with words doesn't make it Halal.

2) If it causes harm to a muslim or muslim community or a muslim country it will be Haram ;

Quote

so imma become a banker without ppl telling me im a kaffir for it 

anyway sometimes some person must do some dirty jobs in order to help other people specially Muslim by helping them to at least pay lesser interest or western bank don't milk them  until you & us can replace it with a real Islamic banking system inshaAllah . 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Your plan must be working in an Islamic bank or even establishing first Islamic bank inshaAllah.

this isn't my plan. I wish to work in investment banking of large banks, The interest will be from non muslims which some of the biggest scholars like al sistani and the like agree, is fine, as it is part of their usual dealings and they do not view it as usury. If I ever move to a muslim country however, i woild leave the job. I dont plan to move to one tho, And only do it in non muslim countries, so I plan to do investment banking with  non muslims 

 

also here is the final evidence: Sayyed Musawi answered perfectly :https://www.al-islam.org/ask/topics/6798/questions-about-Interest?page=1#:~:text=Interest has different situation.,part of their financial dealings.

thread complete 

 

salaam:furious:

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7 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

The interest will be from non muslims which some of the biggest scholars like al sistani and the like agree, is fine, as it is part of their usual dealings and they do not view it as usury.

Salam respectfully ,you have totally misunderstood their point which allowing it by them doesn't mean being fine but just it's something for coping with it until there is no Islamic alternative for it which in similar fashion Sayyed Musawi  just has talked about allowing it based on conditions of question  ; although taking interest from anyone has highly disgusted which even you allow to take it from non muslim so then it will be Makruh which in holy Quran Jews highly have been criticized for taking interest from non -Jews which in similar fashion it can be considered about Muslims who are taking interest from non-Muslims.

Also, usurious loan between father (not mother) and child (daughter or son), husband and wife (as long as they are husband and wife) and usurious loan by a Muslim to an unbeliever who is in war with muslims کافر جربی (Kafir Harbi) (not vice versa) is halal.[14]

[14] هاشمی شاهرودی، فرهنگ فقه، ۱۳۸۹ش، ج۴، ص۵۲.

[14] Hashemi Sahroudi , lexicon of Fiqh , V4 , P 52

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Exceptions to the sanctity of usury
The Imami jurists, citing traditions, have in several cases excluded additional receipts in loans or transactions from the sanctity of usury.

The additional amount that the borrower gives to the borrower by his desire at the time of repaying the debt to the lender.
Usury between husband and wife
Usury between father and son
Usury between owner and slave
Usury between Muslim and warrior unbeliever ; According to the famous jurists, it is only permissible to take a lot from an unbeliever, not to pay him a lot. Some have considered this ruling to include Kafir Dhimmi as well. [41]
In Sunni jurisprudence, there are no exceptions to the sanctity of riba; However, some Hanafians, citing a tradition, considered usury between a Muslim and a warrior unbeliever to be invalid, and some also considered usury between a master and a slave to be null and void.[42]

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/ربای_قرضی

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/ربا

Due to the wrongdoing of the Jews, We prohibited them certain good things that were permitted to them [earlier], and for their barring many [people] from the way of Allah, (160) and for their taking usury—though they had been forbidden from it—and for eating up the wealth of the people wrongfully. And We have prepared for the faithless among them a painful punishment. (161)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/4:160

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/4:161

Due to extreme religious fanaticism, Jews regard foreign nations as nothing and consider any oppression against non-Jews as permissible, even if it leads to their destruction. The Qur'an says about the betrayal of the Jews in trust:

Among the People of the Book is he who if you entrust him with a quintal will repay it to you, and among them is he who, if you entrust him with a dinar will not repay it to you unless you stand persistently over him. That is because they say, ‘We have no obligation to the non-Jews.’ But they attribute lies to Allah, and they know [it]. (75) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/3:75

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This is outlined in the Jewish scriptures, specifically in the Torah:

If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest.[26]

Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase.[27]

 "If we nowadays allow interest to be taken from non-Jews, it is because there is no end to the yoke and the burden king and ministers impose on us, and everything we take is the minimum for our subsistence, and anyhow we are condemned to live in the midst of the nations and cannot earn our living in any other manner except by money dealings with them; therefore the taking of interest is not to be prohibited" (Tos. to BM 70b S.V. tashikh).[25]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

 

Usury was like this at first; That is, they did not consider it permissible to take usury from a Jew, but they took usury from non-Jews. Musa bin Maymon says in his book ید حزقاة (Yad Hazqat), which means powerful hand:
We don't lend to strangers to meet our needs, but we do this to get interest and impose our own will; While it is forbidden to do such a thing with our Jewish brothers. 17
The oppression that the Bani Isra'il used to allow in dealings with others, it has returned to themselves and little by little they planned to receive usury from themselves as well.

https://farsnews.ir/news/13900628000557/تاریخچه-ربا-و-رباخواری-در-جهان

https://farsnews.ir/news/13910426001100/نظر-دین-یهود-درباره-رباخواری

https://qom.iqna.ir/fa/news/4211341/ویژگی‌های-اصلی-یهودیان-را-بشناسیم

About faithful believer Muslism

O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah and abandon [all claims to] what remains of usury, should you be faithful. (278) And if you do not, then be informed of a war from Allah and His apostle. And if you repent, then you will have your principal, neither harming others, nor suffering harm. (279) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:278

O you who have faith! Do not exact usury, twofold and severalfold, and be wary of Allah so that you may be felicitous. (130) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/3:130

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Future_Banker_Insha Allah said:

If I ever move to a muslim country however, i woild leave the job. I dont plan to move to one tho

Moving to a muslim country doesn't mean that you won't face usury in banking which although of following idea of making an Islamic bank without usury still we have not reached to ideal point which currently some banks in muslism countries likewise Iran are using  حیل tricks for scaping from falsehood to truth although it has been criticized by some shia Scholars .

 

Hayal (Tricks)
Main article: Hayal Sha'ri
What is meant by hayal riba is to do something or prepare the grounds and means to change the ruling on riba by changing the subject of riba. [34]

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The approach of jurists towards hayal riba will depend on their perspective on the more general issue of sharia al hayal. Among the four sects, the Malikis and the Hanbalis are against the use of Hayal of usury, and in contrast to the Hanbali and Shafi'i jurists, they have agreed to most of the tricks in this regard.[35]


Among the Shia jurists, most of the jurists have allowed some means Hayal of usury and claimed consensus on it and introduced it as a way to escape from falsehood to the truth. and in opposition some jurists likewise Muqaddas Ardabili [37] , Imam Khomeini [38] , Martyr Motahari [39], because they consider the use of this trick to lighten Allah's ruling on usury, they are among the opponents of using the tricks of usury.


Some of the most important methods of tricks of usury in Shia jurisprudence are:

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Attaching another commodity to the incomplete party or both parties of the transaction.
Buying and selling usurious commodities with other commodities
Giving gift by each party to the other without the intention of exchange.
Each of the two parties lending their goods to the other and then discharging each other's obligations unconditionally.[40]

 

Interest-free banking
Main article: Interest-free banking
The idea of interest-free banking was proposed in the face of the ever-increasing expansion of banks and the promotion of their role in the economic system of Islamic countries in order to prevent usurious banking operations. [43] Muslim economists and legislators in Islamic countries to avoid creating a legal relationship between depositors and banks. Based on usurious loans, they revised the ruling on the sanctity of usury and passed laws on the control of profit and interest.[44]
In order to respond to the existing needs in the field of banking, to legitimize the bank's activities, the jurists provided solutions such as receiving a fee for the performance of the action and converting the loan contract into a sales contract.[45]

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Establishing Islamic banks and financial institutions to avoid usury in financial systems was another action taken by some Muslim economists. The first measures in this field were the establishment of the Islamic Savings Bank by Ahmad Najjar in Egypt, and then this method was followed in other countries such as Pakistan, Malaysia and Saudi Arabia.[46]


The plan of interest-free banking in the Islamic Republic of Iran was recognized as a necessity after the victory of the Islamic Revolution and started in a multi-stage process with the nationalization of banks in Khordad  58 (June 1979) and with the approval of the law on interest-free banking operations in 1362 solar  (1983)  and its amendment in It was followed up in 1368 hijri Solar (1998) . [47]

Criticism of scholars to banks
Some religious scholars, including Ayatollah Javadi Amoli, Makarem Shirazi, Nouri Hamdani and Sobhani, have criticized banks and considered some bank approvals, such as late payment fines, as examples of usury.[48]

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/ربا

 

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