Philadelphia shooting at Eid al Fitr event

[John Doe120]

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/philadelphia-eid-al-fitr-event-shooting.amp
 

If youre in America, and this is just a suggestion, a gun is cheap and easy to get if you have a clean record. Training is also cheap. Look up your local laws beforehand.

Places of worship and religious events are common places that get attacked and shot up. Cases like these are on the rise. You never know if this might happen to you. It surprises me that many don’t own a gun. I know a lot of Shia mosques don’t have enough money to hire armed security like churches, but a gun is not expensive.

Alhamdulilah Cops were around but this couldve ended badly. 

[notme]

1 hour ago, John Doe120 said:

Alhamdulilah Cops were around but this couldve ended badly. 

I believe this to be true in this case, but of the five people who were injured, two were injured by police - a teen was shot by the officer who was arresting him, and a child was hit by a police car. The article I read earlier today listed the persons in the article you've posted, and another teen who was injured and transported himself to the hospital.

 

1 hour ago, John Doe120 said:

If youre in America, and this is just a suggestion, a gun is cheap and easy to get if you have a clean record. Training is also cheap. Look up your local laws beforehand.

More shooting would have just meant more injuries or even deaths.

I'm not opposed to people owning firearms, but I am opposed of the "good guy with a gun" ideology.

Edited April 11 by notme

[John Doe120]

4 hours ago, notme said:

I believe this to be true in this case, but of the five people who were injured, two were injured by police - a teen was shot by the officer who was arresting him, and a child was hit by a police car. The article I read earlier today listed the persons in the article you've posted, and another teen who was injured and transported himself to the hospital.

 

More shooting would have just meant more injuries or even deaths.

I'm not opposed to people owning firearms, but I am opposed of the "good guy with a gun" ideology.

Yea but it was 4 shooters, one with an AR. Im not sure how many were at the event but this couldve ended with 30+ dead. 
 

Not sure why bring up one of the wounded was shot by cops. He was one of the criminals that shot up the event.

As for your last statement, what do you mean? What is wrong with the good guys having guns? We can pray to Allah during these times and ask for help, but we also should act, and not just sit and cower. 
 

If youre sick, do you only pray to Allah and make dua? Or do you also go to the hospital, buy medicine, etc?

[Eddie Mecca]

@notme

 

[Lion of Shia]

7 hours ago, John Doe120 said:

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/philadelphia-eid-al-fitr-event-shooting.amp
 

If youre in America, and this is just a suggestion, a gun is cheap and easy to get if you have a clean record. Training is also cheap. Look up your local laws beforehand.

 

Places of worship and religious events are common places that get attacked and shot up. Cases like these are on the rise. You never know if this might happen to you. It surprises me that many don’t own a gun. I know a lot of Shia mosques don’t have enough money to hire armed security like churches, but a gun is not expensive.

 

Alhamdulilah Cops were around but this couldve ended badly. 

tell me about it we had unwanted guests come and cause fitnah on eid at the shia center.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

6 hours ago, notme said:

I'm not opposed to people owning firearms, but I am opposed of the "good guy with a gun" ideology.

Same here, that was probably the worst thing the NRA did, making people believe that they could handle a shooting, be the hero and the government wants to steal their guns. That's probably why that 15-year old went out there with an AR-15 and started.  Political extremism, they start them with propaganda young. He wanted to be a "hero".

[John Doe120]

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Same here, that was probably the worst thing the NRA did, making people believe that they could handle a shooting, be the hero and the government wants to steal their guns. That's probably why that 15-year old went out there with an AR-15 and started.  Political extremism, they start them with propaganda young. He wanted to be a "hero".

Ignore the politics brother.

 

This is about muslims defending themselves. How many more mosque shootings do we have to go through? How many more have to die? This is your duty as a man. If you’re afraid and cant overcome, inshallah you overcome the fear.

As for the ones not afraid, buy a gun. There is nothing wrong with it. This is needed now more than ever.

 

 

Those 15 year old extremists wont stop btw. More and more will commit acts like these. At the end of the day, it’s your life and choice. My choice is to own multiple weapons to protect myself, my family, and those around me. It’s your duty.

Edited April 11 by John Doe120

[Guest CuriousMuslim]

Those who think people should not defend themselves with guns or whatever should be ashamed of being called men. Disgusting.

If you're going to put others above you for your protection, or worst, for your family, why not lend you wife to the officials aswell?  You're too weak to deserve her. Again, DISGUSTING.

[notme]

The reason for the second amendment is for us to protect ourselves against our own government, in the event that the tyranny becomes unbearable. Do you think a few handguns and rifles are going to be sufficient? Why aren't we arming up with tanks, fighter jets, and nukes? 

It never was for bandits.  

Do you think we'd have all the bandits if we didn't have so much dystopia? 

[John Doe120]

7 hours ago, notme said:

The reason for the second amendment is for us to protect ourselves against our own government, in the event that the tyranny becomes unbearable. Do you think a few handguns and rifles are going to be sufficient? Why aren't we arming up with tanks, fighter jets, and nukes? 

It never was for bandits.  

Do you think we'd have all the bandits if we didn't have so much dystopia? 

Look at what youre talking about and what im talking about. You guys are arguing about the NRA, 2nd amendment, government tyranny, while im saying to have the MEANS to DEFEND your brothers and sisters in the deen. 
 

Also, if you know anyone in the military, you would know if the US government suddenly starts killing its own people, most soldiers will be on the citizens side, not on the government side. You forget soldiers also have families. Ask any of them, most will tell you theyll disobey the government and fight with the citizens in a dystopian society. 
 

Your argument about tanks, fighters, nukes, makes no sense. 99.99% of the people dont have the individual financial means to own these things. Theyre not on sale for 5.99 at your local Walmart. 

[Ahmad8888]

So many people here are arguing about NRA or second amendment here but ignore that islamically there is nothing against it? 

Heck even my great grandfather who lived under ottoman rule owned a gun, so do a lot of houses in the middle east have guns from that era, given in islam people protecting themselves is not seen as a bad thing?

I could be wrong.

Edited April 12 by Ahmad8888

[Ahmad8888]

3 hours ago, John Doe120 said:

Look at what youre talking about and what im talking about. You guys are arguing about the NRA, 2nd amendment, government tyranny, while im saying to have the MEANS to DEFEND your brothers and sisters in the deen. 
 

Also, if you know anyone in the military, you would know if the US government suddenly starts killing its own people, most soldiers will be on the citizens side, not on the government side. You forget soldiers also have families. Ask any of them, most will tell you theyll disobey the government and fight with the citizens in a dystopian society. 
 

Your argument about tanks, fighters, nukes, makes no sense. 99.99% of the people dont have the individual financial means to own these things. Theyre not on sale for 5.99 at your local Walmart. 

I don't even think the people arguing against the second amendment realise that islam might have something similar.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

On 4/11/2024 at 8:19 AM, John Doe120 said:

This is about muslims defending themselves. How many more mosque shootings do we have to go through? How many more have to die? This is your duty as a man. If you’re afraid and cant overcome, inshallah you overcome the fear.

I agree with you, we should defend ourselves with what we can buy and use. Would it be more reasonable to resort to carrying concealable knives or tasers with us, before carrying pistols/guns with us? Or is the situation so bad that we are past that point? 

 

On 4/11/2024 at 8:19 AM, John Doe120 said:

As for the ones not afraid, buy a gun. There is nothing wrong with it. This is needed now more than ever.

On 4/11/2024 at 8:19 AM, John Doe120 said:

Ignore the politics brother.

No, that would be irresponsible of me.  Same as buying gun, without taking into my current situation. However, don't think for a second I wouldn't defend myself or my fellow brethren in Islam. Also be very careful with saying buying a gun is "needed now more than ever.", especially since guns keep getting in the hands of people who have no business being near a gun . (e.g. the mentally ill and political extremists) There is something very wrong with the fact they can shoot and harm people at Allah's house and have easy access to guns.

Edited April 12 by Gaius I. Caesar

[John Doe120]

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I agree with you, we should defend ourselves with what we can buy and use. Would it be more reasonable to resort to carrying concealable knives or tasers with us, before carrying pistols/guns with us? Or is the situation so bad that we are past that point? 

 

No, that would be irresponsible of me.  Same as buying gun, without taking into my current situation. However, don't think for a second I wouldn't defend myself or my fellow brethren in Islam. Also be very careful with saying buying a gun is "needed now more than ever.", especially since guns keep getting in the hands of people who have no business being near a gun . (e.g. the mentally ill and political extremists) There is something very wrong with the fact they can shoot and harm people at Allah's house and have easy access to guns.

Carry a knife, your choice. I prefer a gun. Let’s be honest, most people committing acts of violence on places of worship are using guns. You wont even get close with a knife, but it’s better than nothing.

 

wym irresponsible of you? Buddy these are man made laws by kuffar, and you keep arguing for/against them. I do not care about the 2nd amendment, the NRA, etc.

 

I never brought up mentally ill and political extremists, so why should you? Common sense tells us they shouldn’t own weapons. Again, you guys keep bringing up irrelevant issues. 

 

I am not going to continue discussing this topic with you because youre missing all my points and arguing about American laws, not Allah’s laws. 

[123xo]

Stop advising people to get a gun, anyways you'd probably pass out when you see a gun u lil

[Gaius I. Caesar]

4 hours ago, John Doe120 said:

ym irresponsible of you? Buddy these are man made laws by kuffar, and you keep arguing for/against them. I do not care about the 2nd amendment, the NRA, etc.

Muslims are expected to abide by the law of the countries  and be civil, not act like a bunch of mindless rabble. Unless, they cannot follow Islam, then they must leave that country. If you do not care about the politics surrounding gun ownership, then you have no business telling people to get a gun. I'm not arguing for or against anything. I'm telling you to please be careful, there are too many people in this country with guns that shouldn't have guns.

 

4 hours ago, John Doe120 said:

I am not going to continue discussing this topic with you because youre missing all my points and arguing about American laws, not Allah’s laws. 

Then why did you even reply to me? It is clear that you didn't read what I wrote earlier and think I'm saying American laws are above Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I don't want to discuss with you either, if you are going to accuse me of nonsense.

[John Doe120]

8 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Muslims are expected to abide by the law of the countries  and be civil, not act like a bunch of mindless rabble. Unless, they cannot follow Islam, then they must leave that country. If you do not care about the politics surrounding gun ownership, then you have no business telling people to get a gun. I'm not arguing for or against anything. I'm telling you to please be careful, there are too many people in this country with guns that shouldn't have guns.

 

Then why did you even reply to me? It is clear that you didn't read what I wrote earlier and think I'm saying American laws are above Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I don't want to discuss with you either, if you are going to accuse me of nonsense.

Abide by them does not mean argue for them.

[AbdusSibtayn]

But the problem is that if we don't know how to use a gun correctly, it might even end up becoming a handicap/liability in combat situations. There is also a 'strike first' advantage, and the one on the offensive has an edge. If a mass shooter were to enter a packed masjid or imambargah and start blasting, there is very little that an armed congregation would be able to do in defense. He'll take away enough lives before he is neutralized. 

 

PS- I don't live in the West. 

Edited April 13 by AbdusSibtayn

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/12/2024 at 1:44 AM, Guest CuriousMuslim said:

Those who think people should not defend themselves with guns or whatever should be ashamed of being called men. Disgusting.

If you're going to put others above you for your protection, or worst, for your family, why not lend you wife to the officials aswell?  You're too weak to deserve her. Again, DISGUSTING

Salam your statement is disgusting because everyone defends it's dignity & Family with anything but on the other hand Shia Islam is against harming others by gun or other offensive tool when you can use civil laws for protection .

We don't put others above us for protection ; which your nonsense about lending wife is really disgusting &  it's insulting to all user ; which carrying a gun or knife or any other offensive tool doesn't make a person a brave or a man but handling situation properly for protection of your family & dignity makes you a brave or a man. 

13 hours ago, John Doe120 said:

Carry a knife, your choice. I prefer a gun. Let’s be honest, most people committing acts of violence on places of worship are using guns. You wont even get close with a knife, but it’s better than nothing.

Salam you just can injure your self with a knife or gun ; while you have accepted a great risk that you & other muslims who majority of them are migrants or poor people will be labeled as terrorists by carrying such things ; which for your protection in  places of worship against violence you can learn self defense techniques without using guns or knife also you can boost security of places by using alarming tools likewise metal detector gates & training self defense techniques without using any equipments with other people in mosque or  a gym in your free times . 

23 hours ago, Ahmad8888 said:

Heck even my great grandfather who lived under ottoman rule owned a gun, so do a lot of houses in the middle east have guns from that era,

Salam such guns only can shoot a one or two bullet which these guns are just good for hunting if still are usable . 

[notme]

On 4/12/2024 at 3:43 AM, John Doe120 said:

Also, if you know anyone in the military, you would know if the US government suddenly starts killing its own people, most soldiers will be on the citizens side, not on the government side.

I was in the US Army. Let's see what would really happen and not make idealistic assumptions.  Do you really think the government would be attacking everyone? No, it'll be "terrorists" or "criminals" same as every time before.  What happened during previous events on which the military was ordered to attack US civilians? I know the answer to that question. I want you to find out.  

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to people owning firearms. I am opposed to ignorant fools imagining themselves playing the hero and getting more people killed.  

[John Doe120]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam your statement is disgusting because everyone defends it's dignity & Family with anything but on the other hand Shia Islam is against harming others by gun or other offensive tool when you can use civil laws for protection .

We don't put others above us for protection ; which your nonsense about lending wife is really disgusting &  it's insulting to all user ; which carrying a gun or knife or any other offensive tool doesn't make a person a brave or a man but handling situation properly for protection of your family & dignity makes you a brave or a man. 

Salam you just can injure your self with a knife or gun ; while you have accepted a great risk that you & other muslims who majority of them are migrants or poor people will be labeled as terrorists by carrying such things ; which for your protection in  places of worship against violence you can learn self defense techniques without using guns or knife also you can boost security of places by using alarming tools likewise metal detector gates & training self defense techniques without using any equipments with other people in mosque or  a gym in your free times . 

Salam such guns only can shoot a one or two bullet which these guns are just good for hunting if still are usable . 

Im not sure how to quote like you do, but im just replying to the middle paragraph. These are good ideas, but not practical. Youre not getting close to someone that has a gun, let’s be realistic here. Metal detectors wont stop a shooting when these shootings start in the parking lot and outside the mosque (remember the new zealand shooting). 

[John Doe120]

7 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

But the problem is that if we don't know how to use a gun correctly, it might even end up becoming a handicap/liability in combat situations. There is also a 'strike first' advantage, and the one on the offensive has an edge. If a mass shooter were to enter a packed masjid or imambargah and start blasting, there is very little that an armed congregation would be able to do in defense. He'll take away enough lives before he is neutralized. 

 

PS- I don't live in the West. 

You bring up good points. I should have been more clear. So ill he more clear here.

 

I do not think mentally ill or disabled individuals should own guns. I do not think people who are afraid of guns should own guns (this will just cause unnecessary harm and panic). 
 

If one does get a gun, take a course. Multiple courses are offered from beginner “how to use a gun” courses to advanced “self defense and tactical training” courses. 
 

I thought these things are common sense, but my experience is different than yours so I apologize for my ignorance. 
 

For your second point about armed congregation, there are many videos online of church security and armed church goers stopping mass shooters. Yes some people will get injured and some might die, would you rather have 2 deaths or 50 deaths? An armed congregation can do a lot against a shooter, especially in defense. 

[John Doe120]

24 minutes ago, notme said:

I was in the US Army. Let's see what would really happen and not make idealistic assumptions.  Do you really think the government would be attacking everyone? No, it'll be "terrorists" or "criminals" same as every time before.  What happened during previous events on which the military was ordered to attack US civilians? I know the answer to that question. I want you to find out.  

Let me be clear: I am not opposed to people owning firearms. I am opposed to ignorant fools imagining themselves playing the hero and getting more people killed.  

Times changed. You forget more and more people dont trust the government. 
 

Im also opposed to ignorant fools playing hero. Alhamdulilah I am not one.

[notme]

4 minutes ago, John Doe120 said:

Times changed. You forget more and more people dont trust the government. 
 

Im also opposed to ignorant fools playing hero. Alhamdulilah I am not one.

True, more people don't trust the government than has been the case since feudalism, but we're still divided.  As long as the government/media can divide us into factions, they control us and will be able to convince some of us of the "otherness" of some part of us, thereby justifying their killing.  

[Ahmad8888]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam your statement is disgusting because everyone defends it's dignity & Family with anything but on the other hand Shia Islam is against harming others by gun or other offensive tool when you can use civil laws for protection .

We don't put others above us for protection ; which your nonsense about lending wife is really disgusting &  it's insulting to all user ; which carrying a gun or knife or any other offensive tool doesn't make a person a brave or a man but handling situation properly for protection of your family & dignity makes you a brave or a man. 

Salam you just can injure your self with a knife or gun ; while you have accepted a great risk that you & other muslims who majority of them are migrants or poor people will be labeled as terrorists by carrying such things ; which for your protection in  places of worship against violence you can learn self defense techniques without using guns or knife also you can boost security of places by using alarming tools likewise metal detector gates & training self defense techniques without using any equipments with other people in mosque or  a gym in your free times . 

Salam such guns only can shoot a one or two bullet which these guns are just good for hunting if still are usable . 

It was actually a flintlock pistol, they were used for war, a notable example is the war of 1812. 

 

Obviously you have to be reasonable in your use of the gun in case of self defence.

Edited April 13 by Ahmad8888