Wearing a bikini in front of mahrams

[Guest Hussein]

Assalamu Alaikum, hope everyone is doing well. Was looking for some advice on a matter that also relates to fiqh. I’m the youngest brother of 3 older sisters. My elder sisters wear hijab when going out but sometimes wear bikinis in our private pool in front of mahram family members and other women. They say it’s allowed since they only have to cover the private parts in front of mahrams and my mother agrees with them. They also dress around the house in short clothes like nightys and shorts. I asked a scholar and he said it’s allowed as long as there is no desire/lust. What should I do in this situation?

[Abu Hadi]

3 hours ago, Guest Hussein said:

Assalamu Alaikum, hope everyone is doing well. Was looking for some advice on a matter that also relates to fiqh. I’m the youngest brother of 3 older sisters. My elder sisters wear hijab when going out but sometimes wear bikinis in our private pool in front of mahram family members and other women. They say it’s allowed since they only have to cover the private parts in front of mahrams and my mother agrees with them. They also dress around the house in short clothes like nightys and shorts. I asked a scholar and he said it’s allowed as long as there is no desire/lust. What should I do in this situation?

Not true. Mahram can see their hair, neck, arms, legs to the knees. W everything else must be covered for Mahram. Only exception is the husband 

[SO SOLID SHIA]

5 hours ago, Guest Hussein said:

in our private pool

 

Walaykum as salam squire

You can't really do anything about it. Firstly being the youngest and only boy (I'm guessing) your authority holds no value lol

It sounds sad but if it bothers you, don't be around the pool when they're there. If your mother is in agreement then that's even more of a reason for them to not listen to you. I fear this will consume a lot of your energy and will get you agitated. There are certain things that are HALAL, but might not be culturally accepted or suitable. You have to have a deep understanding of social etiquettes...whilst discussing your smear test may technically not be haram in a social gathering, it's not really proper. Basically what I'm saying is IF that is the general consensus of scholars opinions then really what they're doing is not bad....you just don't like it so you can voice your opinion and let them know then remove yourself from the situation until you can go to the pool.

In regards to nighties and shorts...again you can't really do anything. If you don't mind me asking is your good father around ? If so what does he say?

MashaAllah @ your private pool though.

I'm sure your Eid is gonna be 'lit'

Eid Mubarak brother don't worry crack on with yourself 

Edited April 10 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Irfani313]

6 hours ago, Guest Hussein said:

Assalamu Alaikum, hope everyone is doing well. Was looking for some advice on a matter that also relates to fiqh. I’m the youngest brother of 3 older sisters. My elder sisters wear hijab when going out but sometimes wear bikinis in our private pool in front of mahram family members and other women. They say it’s allowed since they only have to cover the private parts in front of mahrams and my mother agrees with them. They also dress around the house in short clothes like nightys and shorts. I asked a scholar and he said it’s allowed as long as there is no desire/lust. What should I do in this situation?

As brother Abu Hadi said above, it’s not allowed. Haya (or very deficiently translated modesty) is the core of our religion. Alhamdolillah you have it because it’s bothering you, you need to keep making a strong case to them. You are likely baligh and this has to stop. 
 

Those who have seen the time of Sayed Fadlullah would remember a few cases brought to him of similar nature where these careless haya-less behaviors created gravest fitna with in the families. 

A happy compromise could be you ask them to have a private women only time for a set duration, during which you and your dad would remove yourself from the house. 

Edited April 10 by Irfani313

[Guest Hussein]

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Not true. Mahram can see their hair, neck, arms, legs to the knees. W everything else must be covered for Mahram. Only exception is the husband 

Most Imamis say it’s wajib to cover the front and back private parts in front of mahrams.

[Abu Hadi]

That's exactly what I said. Everything in between the top of the knees and the bottom of the neck must be covered for Mahram excluding the arms. This includes the shape so skin tight one piece swimsuits are also not allowed for Mahram. 

You need to tell them this and if they ignore you and keep doing it then u need to not be in the pool or the pool area when they are dressed like that. 

If they want to swim in front of mahram there are swimsuits for women that cover the parts that need to be covered. If they care to know this we can post some links. 

Edited April 10 by Abu Hadi

[ireallywannaknow]

12 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Not true. Mahram can see their hair, neck, arms, legs to the knees. W everything else must be covered for Mahram. Only exception is the husband 

Salam can you post an actual fatwa for this plz. I have had a similar question and I can't find a concrete answer but I have heard conflicting things. Some religious people I have asked say things like as long as the private parts are covered it's fine. Even mini skirts, crop tops, etc. It is cultural baggages that make people think otherwise. And if you think about it, the answer you gave does pose some logistical problems in a normal family household. 

1) Breastfeeding in front of ones children or in front of other women (one's mom or sisters esp) which is extremely common in most of not all cultures. It's actually nearly impossible to function as a breastfeeding mother if you have others in your home and you would always need to find a place of absolute privacy to feed your constantly hungry child. And breastfeeding is the most natural and healthy way to feed a child (as opposed to bottle or formula). 

2) It's unfair to the husband that if the couple has children, he would almost never see his wife dressed comfortably and beautifully in the home. Not wearing anything below the neck sounds incredibly restricting. 

[Ibn Tayyar]

18 minutes ago, ireallywannaknow said:

Salam can you post an actual fatwa for this plz. I have had a similar question and I can't find a concrete answer but I have heard conflicting things. Some religious people I have asked say things like as long as the private parts are covered it's fine. Even mini skirts, crop tops, etc. It is cultural baggages that make people think otherwise. And if you think about it, the answer you gave does pose some logistical problems in a normal family household. 

1) Breastfeeding in front of ones children or in front of other women (one's mom or sisters esp) which is extremely common in most of not all cultures. It's actually nearly impossible to function as a breastfeeding mother if you have others in your home and you would always need to find a place of absolute privacy to feed your constantly hungry child. And breastfeeding is the most natural and healthy way to feed a child (as opposed to bottle or formula). 

2) It's unfair to the husband that if the couple has children, he would almost never see his wife dressed comfortably and beautifully in the home. Not wearing anything below the neck sounds incredibly restricting. 

It is allowed because the awrah for a man and the awrah for a woman is the same, and it is the private parts, and the chest is not a private part - according to most of our scholars.

Most Imamis state: It is wajib for her to cover her rear and private parts in the presence of women and her maharim; to cover other parts as well is better though not wajib, except where there is a fear of sin.

https://www.al-islam.org/five-schools-islamic-law-muhammad-jawad-mughniyya/rules-modesty

Sayyed Al-Sistani (ha) says the same:

مسألة 12: يجوز للرجل النظر إلى ما عدا العورة من مماثله - شيخاً كان المنظور إليه أو شابّاً، حسن الصورة أو قبيحها - ما لم يكن بتلذّذ شهويّ أو مع الريبة - أي خوف الافتتان والوقوع في الحرام - وهكذا الحال في نظر المرأة إلى ما عدا العورة من مماثلها، وأمّا العورة - وهي القُبُل والدُّبُر كما مرّ في أحكام التخلّي - فلا يجوز النظر إليها حتّى بالنسبة إلى المماثل، نعم حرمة النظر إلى عورة الكافر المماثل والصبيّ المميّز تبتني على الاحتياط اللزوميّ.

[Irfani313]

3 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

It is allowed because the awrah for a man and the awrah for a woman is the same, and it is the private parts, and the chest is not a private part - according to most of our scholars.

Most Imamis state: It is wajib for her to cover her rear and private parts in the presence of women and her maharim; to cover other parts as well is better though not wajib, except where there is a fear of sin.

https://www.al-islam.org/five-schools-islamic-law-muhammad-jawad-mughniyya/rules-modesty

Sayyed Al-Sistani (ha) says the same:

مسألة 12: يجوز للرجل النظر إلى ما عدا العورة من مماثله - شيخاً كان المنظور إليه أو شابّاً، حسن الصورة أو قبيحها - ما لم يكن بتلذّذ شهويّ أو مع الريبة - أي خوف الافتتان والوقوع في الحرام - وهكذا الحال في نظر المرأة إلى ما عدا العورة من مماثلها، وأمّا العورة - وهي القُبُل والدُّبُر كما مرّ في أحكام التخلّي - فلا يجوز النظر إليها حتّى بالنسبة إلى المماثل، نعم حرمة النظر إلى عورة الكافر المماثل والصبيّ المميّز تبتني على الاحتياط اللزوميّ.

There is Islamic Fiqh and there is Islamic Akhlaq. 
 

Fiqh defines  the outer most boundary of Deen, outside of which resides haram, essentially teaching you the bare minimum. 
 

Akhlaq teaches you how to progress closer to the core of Islam.
 

Remaining at the boundary wall saves you from major harm, but keeps you exposed to minor harms. 

Example being Fiqh tells you to not eat pork, Akhlaq tells you to not eat meat every day and even when not eating meat every day, don’t over eat other foods either. See the difference!! 

Likewise Akhlaq tells you that just like sisters and mothers shouldn’t roam around semi naked in the house, brothers and fathers should also cover their upper and lower bodies besides the private parts.
 

Islamic Ahlaq of clothing teaches exactly opposite of the nudist mindset. Libas لباس (root ل ب س) a Quranic word for clothing itself is the word where even the sheer clothing isn’t accepted. 
 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) talks a lot about لباس concept in Quran, and it’s been used from only covering private parts to all the way up to the adoration in decency.
 

The most comprehensive definition though is when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) calls husband and wife the لباس of each other which explains why others shouldn’t see us even closer to the way we can see our spouses (remember the Akhlaq part of Islam). 
هُنَّ لِبَاسٌ لَّكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لِبَاسٌ لَّهُنَّ

The only thing greater than the above لباس concept is the Taqwa which is the best form of covering, intermingle-ness with Allah, adoration and beautify (all the meanings in which the Libas of Taqwa used in Quran). 
 

Bottom line for OP, what your mother and sisters are doing is way below Islamic Akhlaq without which everything is nullified. 

Edited April 10 by Irfani313

[Ibn Tayyar]

22 minutes ago, Irfani313 said:

There is Islamic Fiqh and there is Islamic Akhlaq. 
 

Fiqh defines  the outer most boundary of Deen, outside of which resides haram. It tells you the bare minimum. 
 

Akhlaq teaches you to progress closer to the core of Islam. Akhlaq tells you that just like sisters and mothers shouldn’t roam around semi naked in the house, brothers and fathers should also cover their upper and lower bodies besides the private parts.
 

Islamic Ahlaq of clothing teaches exactly opposite of the nudist mindset. Libas لباس (root ل ب س) a Quranic word for clothing itself is the word where even the sheer clothing isn’t accepted. 
 

I don't disagree. I'm simply answering the question legalistically.

Morally, I am in agreement with you 100%.

[Irfani313]

28 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I don't disagree. I'm simply answering the question legalistically.

Morally, I am in agreement with you 100%.

Thanks for clarification brother, sometimes it’s more to type (my thumbs hurt lol) but for teaching young ones, it’s a moral duty upon the rest of us to give them a comprehensive understanding of Deen and not just the Fiqh rulings. 
 

Whenever I reply these topics, I always remember the words of our dear Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) where he says , and Allah says, that He ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was sent to perfect the “Akhlaq” of the people, …… not the Fiqh. 

Ma’salam & Eid Mubarak.  

[hawdini]

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

It is wajib for her to cover her rear and private parts in the presence of women and her maharim; to cover other parts as well is better though not wajib, except where there is a fear of sin.

I dont understand does this mean they can wear bikinis? Because abu hadi was saying something else

17 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

Remaining at the boundary wall saves you from major harm, but keeps you exposed to minor harms. 

I mean you can look at this differently too. Since its giving a boundary wall its giving us the space to see whats appropriate for the situation. Like above when it says except where there is a fear of sin. Its basically saying use your brain.

So to give advice as i am a woman. Your sisters feel really comfortable in their home wearing that which is a good thing to me. Since i had a different experience. I would always cover up at home and not show even a bit of leg and even make sure i wasn't showing any curves ,it was really uncomfortable for me and i can imagine this is true for other women too. Maybe your parents think if i give them this freedom here they wont have the urge to wear it outside of the house? I think with these type of things you need to be very careful in your approach with women because you might get the opposite result of what you wanted if you push it down their throat.

[Irfani313]

5 hours ago, hawdini said:

I dont understand does this mean they can wear bikinis? Because abu hadi was saying something else

I mean you can look at this differently too. Since its giving a boundary wall its giving us the space to see whats appropriate for the situation. Like above when it says except where there is a fear of sin. Its basically saying use your brain.

So to give advice as i am a woman. Your sisters feel really comfortable in their home wearing that which is a good thing to me. Since i had a different experience. I would always cover up at home and not show even a bit of leg and even make sure i wasn't showing any curves ,it was really uncomfortable for me and i can imagine this is true for other women too. Maybe your parents think if i give them this freedom here they wont have the urge to wear it outside of the house? I think with these type of things you need to be very careful in your approach with women because you might get the opposite result of what you wanted if you push it down their throat.

Only responding to the last sentence, would they not use their Aql and not let their environment come in the way of their obedience to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

[hawdini]

1 hour ago, Irfani313 said:

Only responding to the last sentence

Why i wrote all of that and for what i give up with you people

 

1 hour ago, Irfani313 said:

their obedience to Allah

They have always thought it was halal tho and the fatwa ibn tayyar gave agrees with them. If you want to push them for better akhlaq you better approach kindly and convincingly

[ireallywannaknow]

6 minutes ago, hawdini said:

They have always thought it was halal tho and the fatwa ibn tayyar gave agrees with them. If you want to push them for better akhlaq you better approach kindly and convincingly

I agree, I would approach it from an angle of not trying too hard to emulate western culture and fashions bc it is very corrupt. There is no logical reason to wear a bikini to swim and actually, a lot of women are extremely uncomfortable wearing bikinis but bc they feel the cultural pressure and they don't know that there are alternatives, they wear it anyway or just don't swim. In college when I was showing my friends some pics of "burkinis" they got so excited and said they would love to wear that. I don't believe the op's sisters have to go to that extent of modesty in the privacy of their homes but just wear something that makes practical and logical sense to swim in while also aligning with the fitrah (which is to not be naked in front of one's brothers). Swim shorts and a swim T-shirt would fit the bill for me. Basically, encourage them to think independently and not follow western culture for the sake of fitting in. 

[Ibn Tayyar]

8 hours ago, hawdini said:

I dont understand does this mean they can wear bikinis? Because abu hadi was saying something else

I mean you can look at this differently too. Since its giving a boundary wall its giving us the space to see whats appropriate for the situation. Like above when it says except where there is a fear of sin. Its basically saying use your brain.

So to give advice as i am a woman. Your sisters feel really comfortable in their home wearing that which is a good thing to me. Since i had a different experience. I would always cover up at home and not show even a bit of leg and even make sure i wasn't showing any curves ,it was really uncomfortable for me and i can imagine this is true for other women too. Maybe your parents think if i give them this freedom here they wont have the urge to wear it outside of the house? I think with these type of things you need to be very careful in your approach with women because you might get the opposite result of what you wanted if you push it down their throat.

I would also add that if one's parents are not happy with the way their child dresses around them i.e it causes them to be distressed because they determined it is inappropriate, then it would be haram to dress like that - it would fall under the haram disobedience of one's own parents. So there are secondary factors to consider in such a scenario.

Like the brother @Irfani313 said, Islamic Fiqh is more than often just a baseline of halal and haram, but Akhlaq has a wider scope in many aspects. 

The fatwa I brought forth is just simply the boundaries of halal and haram, and if that is what the O.P is seeking than the fatwa has answered that.

Edited April 11 by Ibn Tayyar

[LunaLoom]

Since you've already consulted a scholar, it might be helpful to have an open conversation with your family about your feelings on the matter. Understanding each other's perspectives could lead to a resolution.

[Abu Hadi]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:32 AM, ireallywannaknow said:

Salam can you post an actual fatwa for this plz. I have had a similar question and I can't find a concrete ...

Alekum Salam

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/hijab-dress-modesty-islam-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi

[SelBil]

18 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I would also add that if one's parents are not happy with the way their child dresses around them i.e it causes them to be distressed because they determined it is inappropriate, then it would be haram to dress like that - it would fall under the haram disobedience of one's own parents. So there are secondary factors to consider in such a scenario.

Like the brother @Irfani313 said, Islamic Fiqh is more than often just a baseline of halal and haram, but Akhlaq has a wider scope in many aspects. 

The fatwa I brought forth is just simply the boundaries of halal and haram, and if that is what the O.P is seeking than the fatwa has answered that.

I believe that respecting the feelings and values of family members is crucial to maintaining harmonious family relationships. Therefore, it is worth discussing this point with your relatives.

[Quran313]

You should talk to your father about this. It's not appropriate.

[SO SOLID SHIA]

Any updates bro we need updates ? 

Did you preach the good word to them? Did they stop wearing shorts in front of you? What happened we need to know !

What's the pool situation like, how was Eid? Did everyone wanna go for a dip???!!??? Did you stick around or go to your room and read Sahifa Sajjadiya!!???

Edited April 13 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Guest Hussein]

On 4/13/2024 at 11:02 AM, SO SOLID SHIA said:

Any updates bro we need updates ? 

Did you preach the good word to them? Did they stop wearing shorts in front of you? What happened we need to know !

What's the pool situation like, how was Eid? Did everyone wanna go for a dip???!!??? Did you stick around or go to your room and read Sahifa Sajjadiya!!???

I told them that it was against proper akhlaq to wear that but they were like it isn’t haram and the home is the one place where they get to relax and dress freely. My parents also agreed with them. Regarding the pool situation, they just said I should go in my room or somewhere else.

[Quran313]

On 4/14/2024 at 10:39 PM, Guest Hussein said:

I told them that it was against proper akhlaq to wear that but they were like it isn’t haram and the home is the one place where they get to relax and dress freely. My parents also agreed with them. Regarding the pool situation, they just said I should go in my room or somewhere else.

It's hard being in this situation. It sounds like you talked to your parents, but they don't seem to care. I'm just saying my own opinion and not sure how Islamic and true it might be, try to avoid being in those gatherings whenever improper dressing is. Also try to make your parents realize that you not being in those gatherings in because of improper dressing. Do it respectfully. (I'm not saying they should wear Hijab at home but should not wear intriguing dress). You can ask your parents to ask this question from the scholar at your nearby mosque. They usually guide them Islamically.

Just to let you know, usually Muslim families separate son and girl rooms. They don't wear Hijab at home, but they don't dress freely that make body parts visible. Parents should be cautious about situations like this and understand the importance of the matter.

[kadhim]

On 4/15/2024 at 1:39 AM, Guest Hussein said:

Regarding the pool situation, they just said I should go in my room or somewhere else.

Honestly that seems like a logical and reasonable solution. 

[Guest fatima46]

On 4/9/2024 at 4:09 PM, Guest Hussein said:

Assalamu Alaikum, hope everyone is doing well. Was looking for some advice on a matter that also relates to fiqh. I’m the youngest brother of 3 older sisters. My elder sisters wear hijab when going out but sometimes wear bikinis in our private pool in front of mahram family members and other women. They say it’s allowed since they only have to cover the private parts in front of mahrams and my mother agrees with them. They also dress around the house in short clothes like nightys and shorts. I asked a scholar and he said it’s allowed as long as there is no desire/lust. What should I do in this situation?

As a women who was used to dressing quite comfortably in the house, I would often wear shorts, tank tops, nightys, but never bikinis as I felt they were basically just undies lol. But I would say to tell your sisters to wear a something around the bottom/waist as that maybe too revealing.

[SO SOLID SHIA]

On 4/15/2024 at 6:39 AM, Guest Hussein said:

I told them that it was against proper akhlaq to wear that but they were like it isn’t haram and the home is the one place where they get to relax and dress freely. My parents also agreed with them. Regarding the pool situation, they just said I should go in my room or somewhere else.

Salam alaykum my brother Hussein. You are a good sincere young man and I can understand how frustrated you must feel. If you refer to my initial advice, this is basically what the predicted outcome was going to be, but of course everybody has their own opinions and wants to be 'NOOOO DIS IS HARAAAM YOU HAVE TO TELL DEM - IT IS THE HIGH TIME IT IS THE HIGH TIME NOW - BECHAUSE YOU HAVE TO TELL DEM THEY ARE DOING HARAAAAM OH MY GORDDDDDDD VHYYYYY '

. I am speaking from a place of deep wisdom and insight mashaAllah. As expected, they all undermined you. You did your duty and informed - there is no way you can control any human being and neither should you wish to do so. Try to understand it from their perspective also - in one way I can empathise with them and would feel that if I could not wear a bikini on the beach, then at least I could wear it in my own home...of course your parents backed them. Your dad has more authority over his daughters than you do over your sisters. As I said since you are the youngest, your word or opinion in this regard doesn't really hold any weight. If you want to keep reminding them then feel free and go ahead, but you've done your duty here and the best thing you can do is remove yourself from the situation. Something like a silent protest. Again, concentrate on becoming the better version of yourself each day, still show love and kindness to them, maybe their hearts will open up and they eventually will start respecting and admiring your stance that they decide to make gradual changes. That's all you can do bro - keep on being sincere and work hard! LOVE MY BRO

[SelBil]

It is not easy to overcome differences in values and beliefs, especially within families. But try to Find ways to express your concerns and beliefs without judging or blaming.