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What are the beliefs of alawis? In what points so they differ from other shia sub sects? What books of hadeeth do you rely on? 

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Posted (edited)

(Before I reply, I'll just clarify that as I'm obviously no scholar and have very limited knowledge, my words do not represent all Alawites and may be incorrect).

On 4/10/2024 at 2:39 AM, sunnism said:

What are the beliefs of alawis?

Alawites believe in one Allah, His prophets, His books, etc. We believe in salah, zakah, sawm, hajj, and jihad. We believe that Allah's final Prophet and Messenger was Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and that his successor was Ali ibn Abi Taleb (عليه السلام).

We are Muslims because we submit to Allah and believe in Islam.
We are Shi'ites because we are the followers of Imam Ali.
We are Rafidites because we reject those who were not appointed by Allah.
We are Nusayrites because we follow the approach of Muhammad ibn Nusayr.
We are Khasibites because we follow the teachings of Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi. 

On 4/10/2024 at 2:39 AM, sunnism said:

In what points so they differ from other shia sub sects?

We differ from the other shi'a because they believe that Muhammad ibn Nusayr was an extremist and that he claimed that the Imams were divine, or that he himself was divine. However, this is not true  as he neither claimed divinity for himself nor for the Imams, and we do not believe that he or the Imams were divine. Divinity is only for Allah. 

On 4/10/2024 at 2:39 AM, sunnism said:

What books of hadeeth do you rely on?

Al-Hidayat al-Kubra by Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi
Tuhaf al-Uqool
Irshad al-Quloob

I'm not too educated about Alawite books, I mostly just rely on other Shi'ite books like al-Kafi because they're available online and in English.

The Alawites mostly live in the coastal regions of Syria and Lebanon, although Muhammad ibn Nusayr lived in modern-day Iraq alongside the Imams. We have been persecuted and oppressed for hundreds of years, which is the reason why we are so small in number and reluctant to openly state our beliefs. We believe that we follow the true path of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and we don't accept the words of others that we are an "offshoot" or we are "innovators" or "extremists". Many accuse us and say we permit alcohol consumption, homosexuality, and other things like this, but these are no more than baseless claims. As for alcohol consumption, there are many Muslims who consume alcohol, whether it be because they believe it to be halal, or just because they can't help it, but that doesn't mean we generalise all members of that sect in the same category. 

This is a good video about the Alawites by an Alawite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmFFA1a11yI

Edited by علوي
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Which line of imams do you believe in? 

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On 4/13/2024 at 11:30 AM, علوي said:

(

We are Muslims because we submit to Allah and believe in Islam.
We are Shi'ites because we are the followers of Imam Ali.
We are Rafidites because we reject those who were not appointed by Allah.
We are Nusayrites because we follow the approach of Muhammad ibn Nusayr.
We are Khasibites because we follow the teachings of Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi. 

Hi Friend,I'm an Alawite (not Alevi) in Southern-Turkey from Adana. i asked my "Teacher" if it is permissible to call ourselves Nusayris, he said no because we do not follow Ibn Nusayr but Imam Ali. we should therefore refer ourselves to Alawis. what is your opinion?

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On 4/22/2024 at 3:55 AM, foxmccloud said:

Hi Friend,I'm an Alawite (not Alevi) in Southern-Turkey from Adana. i asked my "Teacher" if it is permissible to call ourselves Nusayris, he said no because we do not follow Ibn Nusayr but Imam Ali. we should therefore refer ourselves to Alawis. what is your opinion?

Salam akhi, we did not create that name. The label "nusayri" was given to us by other people instead of "alawi" because they wanted to deny our connection to Imam Ali. However, we have no problem with this name because Sayyedina Ibn Nusayr was a righteous companion of the Imams. But your teacher is right; we should refer to ourselves as Alawis because that's the name the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave us.

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6 hours ago, علوي said:

Sayyedina Ibn Nusayr was a righteous companion of the Imams.

Salam respsectfully , he has been leader of Gulat who has followed doctrine of cursed Ibn Khattab so maybe at first he has been a companion of Imam but in advance due to turning to a Ghali and calling himself as Bab (gate) of Imam ; so threfore he  has been put him "outside the circle of the Twelver Imamites" which Alawais must refrain from him & put him outside of their circle & get rid of his false ghali doctrine to be related to prophet Muhammad (pbu) & his blessed Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) instead of relating to an infamous  Ghali (extremist) . 

The Underground Activities of the Second Saf’ir of the Twelfth Imam

1. The Designation of the Second Saf’ir, Abu Ja’far

The second Saf’ir was Muhammad b. ‘Uthman b. Said al‑‘Umari. His kunya was Abu Ja’far. He carried out his activities first as the agent of the Twelfth Imam and then as his Saf’ir for about fifty years, having been the principal assistant of his father, the first Saf’ir, from the time of the eleventh Imam, al‑ ‘Askari. According to al‑Tusi, when the first Saf’ir died, Abu Ja’far carried out the last rites for the dead man, washed the corpse, clad him in his shroud and buried him

C) Muhammad b. Nusayr

 

A third rival to Abu Ja’far for the office of the sifara was Muhammad b. Nusayr, who was not an ordinary Imamite, but belonged to the extremists, (al-Ghulat). It has been noted that some of the extremists, first during the time of the ninth Imam (such as Ja’far b. Waqid, Abu al‑Ghamr and Hashim b. Abi Hashim), then during the time of the tenth and eleventh Imams (such as ‘Ali b. Haska al‑Hawwari al‑Qummi and his students al‑Qasim al‑Sharani al­Yaqtini, al‑Hasan b. Muhammad b. Baba al‑Qummi and Muhammad b. Musa al‑Shariqi or al‑Shari’i), had claimed that they were the agents or the Gates (Abwab) of the Imam and had collected money from the ordinary believers. They also preached extremist ideas aimed at abolishing the Islamic rites, that is, the prayer, fast, zakat and pilgrimage.

According to Al-Kashshi their roots lay in the extremist doctrines of Ibn Abi al‑Khattab25, the contemporary of the sixth Imam al-Sadiq. However, the presence of the Imams had limited the activities of the extremists, since the Imams used to have direct contacts with their followers and circulated open letters of excommunication against false agents.

But the occultation of the Twelfth Imam enabled the Ghulat to extend their role as agents or Gates (Abwab) at the expense of the Saf’irsince the Saf’ir could not refute their claim by declaring publicly that he was the true Imam's Saf’ira declaration which might put his life and the Imam's life in danger. For this reason, when al‑‘Askari died, Muhammad b. Musa al‑Shari’i claimed ‑ as has been noted ‑ that he was the Gate (Bab) of the Imam.

Quote

According to al‑Tusi, after the death of al-Shari’i, Muhammad b. Nusayr al‑Numayri aspired to the office of the Saf’ir26.

This shows that both men may have been representatives of a single trend. According to Al-Kashshi, Ibn Nusayr had already claimed that he was the Bab of the tenth Imam27. Al‑Tusi's account suggests that he had abandoned this claim during the lifetime of the eleventh Imam, al‑‘Askari. It seems that only after the death of the first Saf’ir did he dispute the legality of Abu Ja’far as the Saf’ir and claim that he was the Bab of the Twelfth Imam.

Therefore Abu Ja’far cursed and excommunciated him. Having been excommunicated, Ibn Nusayr tried to make Abu Ja’far change his mind, but he did not even receive him, so the Imamites excluded him from their community28.

Ibn Nusayr was encouraged in his claim by Muhammad b. Musa b. Furat, who belonged to the well‑known family of Banu Furat29.

He was a well‑known muhaddith in Kufa and Baghdad and seems to have been the first man from Banu Furat to hold an important administrative office in the ‘Abbasid government30.

 

6 hours ago, علوي said:

The label "nusayri" was given to us by other people

Quote

With the support of Banu Furat, Ibn Nusayr was able to circulate his claim amongst the Imamites, and, because of the participation of the two of them, their sect was known as "al‑Numayriyya al‑Furatiyya"31. The vast majority of their followers who came from Mada’in, and were called al‑Ishaqiyya after one of their leaders, Ishaq b. Muhammad al­-Ahmar32.

It appears that Ibn Nusayr's claims neither weakened Abu Jafar's position nor attracted any of his followers to Ibn Nusayr's side, so the latter's influence must have been limited mainly to the extremists.

Quote

According to al‑Nawbakhti a certain Ahmad was supposed to have been designated as the successor of Ibn Nusayr, but a Nusayri work refers to a certain Muhammad b. Jundab as Ibn Nusayr's successor in the view of the majority of the Nusayriyya. It is said that he was in turn followed by Muhammad al‑Junbulani33.

But this occurred at a later stage after the death of the second Saf’ir in 305/917, so it is beyond the topic of this section. However, it is worth mentioning that, from the time of second Saf’ir onwards,

the followers of Ibn Nusayr separated themselves totally from the direct control of the second Saf’irAbu Ja’far, who in the Imamite view was the only representative of the hidden Imam. Moreover the Nusayriyya gave more importance to the role of the Bab than to the Imam himself, which was proof enough to place them outside the circle of the Twelver Imamites.

https://www.al-islam.org/occultation-twelfth-imam-historical-background-jassim-m-hussain/underground-activities-second-safir

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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13 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

he has been leader of Gulat

Salam.

The only criticism of Ibn Nusayr that I've ever heard is that he is ghali, which is false. There is not one thing which he was extreme about.

13 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Nusayriyya gave more importance to the role of the Bab than to the Imam himself

I don't know who made this up, but it's completely untrue. The only reason we love and respect Muhammad ibn Nusayr is because the Imams loved and respected him.

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7 hours ago, علوي said:

I don't know who made this up, but it's completely untrue. The only reason we love and respect Muhammad ibn Nusayr is because the Imams loved and respected him

Salam probably he has been endorsed until martyrdom of Imam Hasan Askary (عليه السلام) but after that he has turned into a Ghali  because he has tried to introduce himself as Bab(gate) to 12th Imam without his majesty permission ; so then he has changed many rulings of Islam & turned Haram to Halal & Halal to Haram based on his desire so then  invalidates Namaz (Salah) & fasting & legal sharia marriage & etc so therefore he became an apostate out of fold of Islam although of claiming of following it .

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15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam probably he has been endorsed until martyrdom of Imam Hasan Askary (عليه السلام) but after that he has turned into a Ghali

There's no proof to support that claim.

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

because he has tried to introduce himself as Bab(gate) to 12th Imam without his majesty permission

He was appointed as bab of Imam al-Askari and Imam al-Mahdi (عليهما السلام)

Al-Majlisi writes:

Quote

قال المفضل: قلت: يا سيدي فمن يخاطبه ولمن يخاطب؟ قال الصادق عليه السلام:
تخاطبه الملائكة والمؤمنون من الجن ويخرج أمره ونهيه إلى ثقاته وولاته ووكلائه ويقعد ببابه محمد بن نصير النميري في يوم غيبته بصابر ثم يظهر بمكة.

Al-Mufaddal said: "O master, who will address him and whom will he address?"

Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "The angels and believing jinn address him, and he conveys his commands and prohibitions to the trustworthy ones and his agents, and Muhammad ibn Nusayr sits at his door (bab) during his absence, then he appears in Makkah."

Source: Bihar al-Anwar

In another narration:

Quote

قال المفضل: قلت: يا سيدي فمن يخاطبه ولمن يخاطب؟ قال: تخاطبه الملائكة والمؤمنون من الجن ويخرج أمره ونهيه إلى ثقاته وولاته ووكلائه ويقعد على بابه محمد بن نصير النميري في يوم غيبته بصاريا ثم يظهر بمكة.

Al-Mufaddal said: "O master, who will address him and whom will he address?"

Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said: "The angels and believing jinn address him, and he conveys his commands and prohibitions to the trustworthy ones and his agents, and Muhammad ibn Nusayr sits at his door (bab) during his absence in Saraya, then he appears in Makkah."

Source: Hilliyat al-Abrar fi Ahwal Muhammad wa Aalihi al-Athar

And that's without even getting into the narrations in al-Hidayat al-Kubra. I can put more if you want.

16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

so then he has changed many rulings of Islam & turned Haram to Halal & Halal to Haram based on his desire so then  invalidates Namaz (Salah) & fasting & legal sharia marriage & etc

He did none of those things. As proven from al-Hidayat al-Kubra, he is the bab of the Imam (عليه السلام).

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On 4/30/2024 at 12:44 AM, علوي said:

He did none of those things. As proven from al-Hidayat al-Kubra, he is the bab of the Imam (عليه السلام).

All narrations about sitting in place besides door of  house of Imam which he has been answering to some questions  but idt doesn't indicated that he has had speciall premission from Imam for doing it just because he has been physically present at door of house of Imam (عليه السلام) .:titanic::einstein::book:

 

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

All narrations about sitting in place besides door of  house of Imam which he has been answering to some questions  but idt doesn't indicated that he has had speciall premission from Imam for doing it just because he has been physically present at door of house of Imam (عليه السلام) .:titanic::einstein::book:

Look at the context of the hadith. The hadith is about "من يخاطبه ولمن يخاطب", (who will address him and whom will he address) and the only name mentioned in connection to this question is that of Abu Shuayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه).

By the way, what's your opinion on Sheikh Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi (رضي الله عنه)?

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40 minutes ago, علوي said:

Look at the context of the hadith. The hadith is about "من يخاطبه ولمن يخاطب", (who will address him and whom will he address) and the only name mentioned in connection to this question is that of Abu Shuayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه).

Salam answering questions doesn't mean nothing about being good person although his fall out has happened during minor occultation by turning into a Ghali which 

41 minutes ago, علوي said:

By the way, what's your opinion on Sheikh Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi (رضي الله عنه)?

He has followed way of Nusayr  in Ghuluw  as his student . :censored:

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/حسین_بن_حمدان_خصیبی

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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam answering questions doesn't mean nothing about being good person although his fall out has happened during minor occultation by turning into a Ghali which 

Walaikom assalam,

I don't think you get the gravity of the hadith here. Imam al-Sadeq (عليه السلام) is prophesizing Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه) 800 years before his birth. He tells Mufaddal that ibn Nusayr will sit at the bab of Imam al-Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) after Mufaddal asks who will address him and whom will he address. I was going to quote more ahadith from al-Hidayat al-Kubra which definitively prove the babiyah of ibn Nusayr, but you claim that Sheikh al-Khasibi (عليه السلام) is ghali, which also lacks evidence. (What I should've asked is whether he is a trustworthy narrator in your opinion).

Which hadith proves that Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه) or Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi (عليه السلام) did ghuluw?

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9 hours ago, علوي said:

Which hadith proves that Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه) or Hussein ibn Hamdan al-Khasibi (عليه السلام) did ghuluw?

 

Sheikh Tusi mentioned him twice in his Rijal, in Companions of Imam Jawad (عليه السلام) and did not give any description about him. [1]


Allamah Hilli, may Allah have mercy on him, mentions him in two places in his Rijal, and writes: Muhammad bin Nusayr Namiri is the one who was cursed by Imam Hadi, peace be upon him!
In another place, he says: Ibn Ghazaeri said about him: Muhammad bin Nusayr was one of the elites of Basra in terms of knowledge and  he was weak [ in terms of ideology]. He founded the "Nusayriya" sect and [it] is attributed to him. [2]


His biography is also mentioned in Rijal Kashi, and according to him, Imam Hadi (peace be upon him) cursed three people, one of whom is Muhammad bin Nusayr [al-]Numayri. [3] And in another place, he quotes from "Obaydi" that: "Imam Hasan Askari (peace be upon him) - without that I  ask him a question - sent a letter to me, and in that letter declared his  disgust from Muhammad bin Nusayr [al-]Numayri and Hasan bin Muhammad bin Babaqomi ; He said:

You and all our lovers, stay away from them and I will curse them and may Allah's curse be on them too! They abuse our name and eat people's property and cause sedition! They harassed us and our Shiites! Allah will torment them and defeat and destroy them in the sedition which they have created! [4]

[3] Rijal Kashi, v2 , p 805

[4] Ibid

The deviant beliefs of Muhammad bin Nusayr Numayri:
He had blasphemous and atheistic beliefs that he tried to spread among the public. Muhammad bin Musa bin Hasan bin Furat also provided him with tools and strengthened him. [5]
Ibn Furat was from the famous Banu furat family. He was a famous Muhaddith in Baghdad and Kufa, and it seems that he is the first person from the Banu furat family to gain a position in the Abbasid government. [6] From here, the government's role in supporting deviant lines becomes clear ; And Numayri's opinions are stated in the book of Al-Ghaibah, Rijal-Kashi and Firaq al-Shia.


Saad bin Abdullah Ash'ari says: "Muhammad bin Nusayr Numayri claimed that he was a prophet and that Imam Hadi, peace be upon him, had sent him. He believed in reincarnation and believed in the divinity of Imam Hadi, peace be upon him, he considered it permissible to be intimate with promiscuous women and he made homosexual acts lawful! Numayri considered this to be the cause of humility, humbleness and lowliness of the object (passive-sodomite) and pleasure and modesty of the subject )(active-sodomite)and said: God has not forbidden any of these to His servants! [7]
His followers were a people who left worship and shari'a and considered prohibited and taboo as halal, and said: Jewish religion is right and we are not from them, and Christian religion is right and we are not from them!

[5] Al-Ghayba  , p 398

[6] Political history of twelve Imams , p 196

[7] Al-Ghayba  , p 398 , H 371 ; Rijal Kashi , v2 , p 805 ; Firaq al Shia [Nubakhti] , p103 

 

Saad bin Abdullah says: Numyri fell ill at the end of his life and died at this situation. In that illness, they asked him: Who is your successor? He said with a weak and stiff tongue: Ahmad; But no one understood who Ahmed is! For this reason, this word caused the division of his followers. Some people said: His mean  of  Numayri, was Ahmad  his son. Some people said: Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Musa bin Furat, and some sect said: He means Ahmed bin Musa bin Furat, and some sects said: He means Ahmed bin Abul AlHusayn bin Bashr bin Yazid. This division caused the dispersion of his followers. [8]

 

[8] Al-Ghayba , p 398 , H 373

 

https://lib.eshia.ir/71814/1/606

 

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/محمد_بن_نصیر_نمیری

 

Further detailed reading

https://ensani.ir/fa/article/37149/پیدایش-نصیریان-علویان- 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Saad bin Abdullah Ash'ari says: "Muhammad bin Nusayr Numayri claimed that he was a prophet and that Imam Hadi, peace be upon him, had sent him. He believed in reincarnation and believed in the divinity of Imam Hadi, peace be upon him, he considered it permissible to be intimate with promiscuous women and he made homosexual acts lawful! Numayri considered this to be the cause of humility, humbleness and lowliness of the object (passive-sodomite) and pleasure and modesty of the subject )(active-sodomite)and said: God has not forbidden any of these to His servants! [7]
His followers were a people who left worship and shari'a and considered prohibited and taboo as halal, and said: Jewish religion is right and we are not from them, and Christian religion is right and we are not from them!

brother

Please stop repeating these lies. They are baseless claims with no truth to them whatsoever. 

Also, notice how all of these hadiths are from scholars and other people, whereas the hadith I quoted was from al-Imam al-Sadeq (عليه السلام), 700 years before the birth of Muhammad ibn Nusayr! If he was so evil and such a ghali, how could Imam al-Sadeq prophesize him without warning us not to follow him? And there are numerous other hadith where the Imams themselves (not just some random scholars) praise ibn Nusayr and declare him their righteous bab/access to them.

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These scholars were the elite of the Shia. Shaykh al-Tusi (رضي الله عنه) birth was a miraculous one after supplication by Imam Zaman a.t.f.s for his father to have a child, Shaykh al-Tusi (رضي الله عنه) was known as Sheikh of the sect and founded the Hawza of Najaf. You think our elite like al-Tusi (رضي الله عنه) wouldn't know about such a hadeeth by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) ?

Instead the Sheikh writes the following in al-Kashshi's rijal book in regards to Ibn Nusayr: 
999 – Nasr b. as-Sabah said: al-Hasan b. Muhammad, known as Ibn Baba, and Muhammad b. Nusayr an-Numayri and Faris b. Hatim al-Qazwini, `Ali b. Muhammad al-`Askari عليه السلام cursed those three.

Sheikh al-Ghada'iri (رضي الله عنه) says about Mufaddal: "A lot of fabricated material has been attributed to him. The Ghulat have launched a full-scale attack on his narrations (i.e. they have invaded his original corpus infiltrating it with their own ideas)’

Sheikh al-Najashi (رضي الله عنه) says: "A number of books are listed as authored by him but they are not to be depended upon."

So it was obvious to the Sheikhs in the 11th century that the Ghulat have infiltrated Mufaddal's narrations and the hadeeth about Nusayr which you posted is found in Bihar al-Anwar which was compiled 5 centuries later and in other book Hilliyat al-Abrar fi Ahwal Muhammad wa Aalihi al-Athar which was finished in the 17th century. 

The hadeeth has clear signs of forgery by the Ghulat. Why would Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) prophesise about Nusayr, but not about the 4 deputies and gates of the Imam? According to Sheikh al-Tusi Nusayr started claiming that he was the bab of the Imam a.t.f.s after the first bab passed away. Why would the Imam (عليه السلام) not prophesise about the first gate of the Imam but about Nusayr. The third bab of the Imam a.t.f.s was Abu l-Qasim (رضي الله عنه), here is what one of our great scholars Sheikh al-Nawbakhti (رضي الله عنه), who lived at that time, says about him: "The one who has appointed Husayn b. Ruh is wiser than us, since my duty is debating with their enemies. If I knew Imam's (a) place as Abu l-Qasim [Husayn] knows, maybe in the middle of argument I would disclose it to the enemy; while, if Abu l-Qasim has hidden Imam (a) under his cloak, he would never uncover him even if he is sliced to pieces."

So the Imam (عليه السلام) would not prophesise about Abu l-Qasim who would not reveal the place of the Imam (عليه السلام) even if he is sliced to pieces but he would prophesise about Nusayr by name? It is a hadeeth with clear signs of forgery by the Ghulat and our Scholars have said that the Ghulat have infiltrated Mufaddal's narrations and the supposed prophecy about Nusayr is narrated exactly by Mufaddal. 

The 4 were called deputy (na'ib), emissary (safir), and gate (bab) of the Imam a.t.f.s and they were the only true gates of the Imam (عليه السلام) in the Minor Occultation.

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On 5/7/2024 at 9:40 PM, Eskandar said:

Sheikh al-Ghada'iri (رضي الله عنه) says about Mufaddal: "A lot of fabricated material has been attributed to him. The Ghulat have launched a full-scale attack on his narrations (i.e. they have invaded his original corpus infiltrating it with their own ideas)’

Sheikh al-Najashi (رضي الله عنه) says: "A number of books are listed as authored by him but they are not to be depended upon."

So it was obvious to the Sheikhs in the 11th century that the Ghulat have infiltrated Mufaddal's narrations and the hadeeth about Nusayr which you posted is found in Bihar al-Anwar which was compiled 5 centuries later and in other book Hilliyat al-Abrar fi Ahwal Muhammad wa Aalihi al-Athar which was finished in the 17th century. 

The hadiths and books they're talking about is books like al-Haft al-Shareef, which even a lot of us (Alawites) don't accept as authentic. But even if this hadith is fabricated, it doesn't matter, because there are many other hadiths which prove the babiyah of Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه). And out of curiosity, is there a single hadith which proves that Muhammad ibn Nusayr is ghali? A single one? I'm not talking about people's opinions, I'm talking about an actual (authentic) hadith in which ibn Nusayr commits ghuluw. Show me.

On 5/7/2024 at 9:40 PM, Eskandar said:

The hadeeth has clear signs of forgery by the Ghulat. Why would Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) prophesise about Nusayr, but not about the 4 deputies and gates of the Imam?

Maybe because he (عليه السلام) knew that the majority of people would follow the four deputies but not the bab. Maybe because the bab is greater than the deputies. Who cares anyway? If the Imam says something, we have to follow. It doesn't matter why he said it. And unfortunately, blind speculation about how hadiths "have clear signs of forgery" or not is not an part of hadith grading.

On 5/7/2024 at 9:40 PM, Eskandar said:

According to Sheikh al-Tusi

Basically this is what I understand from your post:

1. It's narrated that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said Muhammad ibn Nusayr is the bab of Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام).

2. Sheikh al-Tusi said Muhammad ibn Nusayr is not the bab of Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام).

3. Instead of following Imam al-Sadiq, you follow Sheikh al-Tusi.

good job.

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^ also Tusi quotes Muhammad ibn Nusayr in his books (such as Tahzeeb al-Ahkam) many times, so he seems to have thought he was trustworthy, as do countless other shi'ite scholars.

Edited by علوي
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13 hours ago, علوي said:

Maybe because he (عليه السلام) knew that the majority of people would follow the four deputies but not the bab. Maybe because the bab is greater than the deputies. Who cares anyway? I

Salam Bab is not greater than 4 special deputies which always great liars likewise Sheikh A.Ahsa'i as founder of  Shaykhiyya cult  so then M.A Bab founder of Babism cult  so then founder of Bahaism cult  have called themselves as Bab which according to them  Bab is greater than 4 special deputies of Imam Mahdi during both of minor  & major occultation .

Ahmad al-Ahsa'i

Quote

According to al-Ahsa'i, even the bodies of the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) will be corrupted and annihilated in the grave—he distinguishes between their apparent bodies and their original bodies that are highly delicate. Their apparent bodies are accidental to them. These bodies are just created so that people could be able to see them and have contacts with them. Hadiths concerning the survival of their bodies in the graves concern not their apparent bodies; rather they concern a body without any elemental forms, that is, the huwarqilya'i body which is only visible to other Imams (a) and not to other people.

The theory of huwarqilya'i corpses not only purports to account for the bodily resurrection but also for ascension and the occultation of Imam al-Mahdi (a).

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ahmad_al-Ahsa'i

BABISM

Quote

There is evidence that a section of the Shaikhi community at this period regarded Aḥsāʾī and Raštī as “gates” (bābān) of the imam, presumably fulfilling functions similar to those of the four abwāb (plur. of bāb “gate”) traditionally regarded as channels of communication with the Hidden Imam during his “lesser occultation” (see Bāb) and possibly presaging the return of the imam himself. The development of a Bābīya school within Shaikhism may be regarded as having begun even before the announcement by Sayyed ʿAlī-Moḥammad of his own claim to be the bāb.

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/babism-index

 

BĀB, ʿAli Moḥammad Širāzi

Quote

The Bāb claimed to be the “gate” (bāb) and “representative” (nāʾeb) of the Hidden Imam, succeeding Shaikh Aḥmad Aḥsāʾī and Sayyed Kāẓem Raštī (Qayyūm al-asmāʾ, fols. 41a, 64b, 139a; resāla in Iran National Bahai Archives 6003c, p. 321; see also MacEoin, “From Shaykhism,” pp. 172-73).

 

Quote

In his early works, he describes himself as the “remembrance” (ḏekr) of the imam, the “servant of the baqīyat Allāh” (i.e., of the Hidden Imam), and the “seal of the gates” (ḵātem al-abwāb) and makes it clear that he has been sent by the Hidden Imam to prepare men for his imminent advent. An anonymous Babi resāla dated 1848 speaks of how, during the lesser occultation of the imam, there appeared the “four appointed gates” (see bāb) while, in the greater occultation, there were in every age “gates not appointed by name or connection” until the appearance of two further specific gates—Aḥsāʾī and Raštī (resāla in Iran National Bahai Archives, MS 6006.C, p. 8).

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/bab-ali-mohammad-sirazi

13 hours ago, علوي said:

1. It's narrated that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said Muhammad ibn Nusayr is the bab of Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام).

It has been refuted by rationality & reliable narrations in opposition of your blind love toward him based on too weak forged narrations .

13 hours ago, علوي said:

2. Sheikh al-Tusi said Muhammad ibn Nusayr is not the bab of Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السلام).

There is only general deputies after major occultation which anyone likewise ibn Nusayr who claims  being Bab so therefore he will be a great liar .

13 hours ago, علوي said:

3. Instead of following Imam al-Sadiq, you follow Sheikh al-Tusi.

This is typical accusation against Twelvers by their opponents  only based on their hatred of Twelver opponents which has been refuted in countless debates with opponents of Twelvers. 

 

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17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam

Walaikom assalam

17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Bab is not greater than 4 special deputies

There's no proof for this; it's mere speculation.

17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

which always great liars likewise Sheikh A.Ahsa'i as founder of  Shaykhiyya cult  so then M.A Bab founder of Babism cult  so then founder of Bahaism cult  have called themselves as Bab which according to them  Bab is greater than 4 special deputies of Imam Mahdi during both of minor  & major occultation .

Ahmad al-Ahsa'i

Quote

According to al-Ahsa'i, even the bodies of the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) will be corrupted and annihilated in the grave—he distinguishes between their apparent bodies and their original bodies that are highly delicate. Their apparent bodies are accidental to them. These bodies are just created so that people could be able to see them and have contacts with them. Hadiths concerning the survival of their bodies in the graves concern not their apparent bodies; rather they concern a body without any elemental forms, that is, the huwarqilya'i body which is only visible to other Imams (a) and not to other people.

The theory of huwarqilya'i corpses not only purports to account for the bodily resurrection but also for ascension and the occultation of Imam al-Mahdi (a).

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ahmad_al-Ahsa'i

BABISM

Quote

There is evidence that a section of the Shaikhi community at this period regarded Aḥsāʾī and Raštī as “gates” (bābān) of the imam, presumably fulfilling functions similar to those of the four abwāb (plur. of bāb “gate”) traditionally regarded as channels of communication with the Hidden Imam during his “lesser occultation” (see Bāb) and possibly presaging the return of the imam himself. The development of a Bābīya school within Shaikhism may be regarded as having begun even before the announcement by Sayyed ʿAlī-Moḥammad of his own claim to be the bāb.

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/babism-index

 

BĀB, ʿAli Moḥammad Širāzi

Quote

The Bāb claimed to be the “gate” (bāb) and “representative” (nāʾeb) of the Hidden Imam, succeeding Shaikh Aḥmad Aḥsāʾī and Sayyed Kāẓem Raštī (Qayyūm al-asmāʾ, fols. 41a, 64b, 139a; resāla in Iran National Bahai Archives 6003c, p. 321; see also MacEoin, “From Shaykhism,” pp. 172-73).

 

Quote

In his early works, he describes himself as the “remembrance” (ḏekr) of the imam, the “servant of the baqīyat Allāh” (i.e., of the Hidden Imam), and the “seal of the gates” (ḵātem al-abwāb) and makes it clear that he has been sent by the Hidden Imam to prepare men for his imminent advent. An anonymous Babi resāla dated 1848 speaks of how, during the lesser occultation of the imam, there appeared the “four appointed gates” (see bāb) while, in the greater occultation, there were in every age “gates not appointed by name or connection” until the appearance of two further specific gates—Aḥsāʾī and Raštī (resāla in Iran National Bahai Archives, MS 6006.C, p. 8).

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/bab-ali-mohammad-sirazi

I don't even know who these people are, nor do I care. I'm not talking about them. Half your post is an irrelevant tangent desperately trying to disprove the babiyah of Sayyedina Muhammad ibn Nusayr, and failing to do so.

17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It has been refuted by rationality & reliable narrations

uhh... no it hasn't...?

So far, my proof for the babiyah of Sayyedna Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه) is from actual ahadith from companions of imams and imams themselves. The proof against him has been opinions of a bunch of scholars slandering him as part of propaganda against him and his followers. Tell me why I should take the second over the first.

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9 hours ago, علوي said:

Walaikom assalam

There's no proof for this; it's mere speculation.

I don't even know who these people are, nor do I care. I'm not talking about them. Half your post is an irrelevant tangent desperately trying to disprove the babiyah of Sayyedina Muhammad ibn Nusayr, and failing to do so.

uhh... no it hasn't...?

So far, my proof for the babiyah of Sayyedna Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه) is from actual ahadith from companions of imams and imams themselves. The proof against him has been opinions of a bunch of scholars slandering him as part of propaganda against him and his followers. Tell me why I should take the second over the first.

 

Putting aside the status of Muhammad ibn Nusayr, if the Alawis don't claim divinity for Imam Ali (عليه السلام), how exactly are their beliefs different from the Twelvers then? You mentioned earlier that you don't believe ibn Nusayr was a ghali, and if so what do you learn from him that sets you apart from the ithna'asharis?

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12 hours ago, Guest111 said:

Putting aside the status of Muhammad ibn Nusayr, if the Alawis don't claim divinity for Imam Ali (عليه السلام), how exactly are their beliefs different from the Twelvers then? You mentioned earlier that you don't believe ibn Nusayr was a ghali, and if so what do you learn from him that sets you apart from the ithna'asharis?

To be honest, not much separates us from the other shi'a. We are also Twelvers, because we believe in twelve infallible imams (peace be upon them all). 

That said, I guess we have a more esoteric interpretation of things. We value the batin (hidden reality) over the zahir (apparent reality). We believe that every Imam had a bab to whom he divulged his greatest secrets of the batin. The bab of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was Salman (رضي الله عنه). The bab of Imam al-Askari (عليه السلام) was Muhammad ibn Nusayr (رضي الله عنه). 

We don't do chest-beating, because the Imams (عليهم السلام) didn't do it. We don't believe in the maraje3 system or in Wilayat al-Faqih, as this is a system that came after the Imams. We value philosophy and respect people like Pythagoras and Aristotle as great monotheists living among ignorant people. Most of our women don't wear headscarves except while praying (this may be either because most Alawites don't believe that women were commanded to wear a headscarf, or it could just be that they observe the esoteric hijab by acting and dressing modestly but they don't observe the exoteric hijab, which is the headscarf. I reckon the vast majority of Alawite women (and men) don't believe that there was ever a commandment for women to wear the headscarf). 

 I don't know what to tell you, as there aren't many differences, and the differences that do exist are pretty small. The important thing is that we hold on to the wilayah of Ahl-al-Bayt (عليهم السلام), as Allah commands us: (Hold fast, all together, to Allah’s cord) وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا.

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