Mukhtar thaqafi

[sunnism]

محمد بن الحسن و عثمان بن حامد، قالا حدثنا محمد بن يزداد الرازي، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن عبد الله المزخرف، عن حبيب الخثعمي، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال : كان المختار يكذب على علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام)۔

Muhammad b. al-Hasan and `Uthman b. Hammad (thiqah) said: Muhammad b. Yazdad ar-Razi (thiqah) narrated to us from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abi ‘l-Khattab (thiqah) from `Abdullah al-Mazkharaf (thiqah) from Habib al-Khath`ami (thiqah) from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام He said: Mukhtar used to lie against (or, about) `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام

Rijal Kashi, p. 125

 

ايضا به سند معتبر از امام محمد باقر عليه السلام روايت كرده است كه مختار نامه‏اى به خدمت حضرت امام زين العابدين عليه السلام نوشت و با هديه‏اى چند از عراق به خدمت آن جناب فرستاد، چون رسولان او به در خانه او رسيدند، رخصت طلبيدند كه داخل شوند، حضرت فرستاد كه: دور شويد كه من هديه دروغگويان را قبول نمى‏كنم و نامه ايشان را نمى‏خوانم

 

Similarly it is narrated with a reliable chain from Imam Baqir that Mukhtar wrote a letter to my father, alongwith gifts from Iraq. When the messengers reached the place of Imam, and asked to enter, Zainul Abideen said: Turn back, I don’t accept gifts from liars, and neither do I read their letters.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

در بعضى از كتب معتبر روايت كرده‏اند كه مختار براى امام زين العابدين عليه السلام صد هزار درهم فرستاد، و آن جناب نمى‏خواست كه آن را قبول كند، و ترسيد از مختار كه رد كند و از او متضرر گردد، پس آن حضرت آن مال را در خانه ضبط كرد. چون مختار كشته شد، حقيقت حال را به عبد الملك نوشت كه: آن مال تعلق به تو دارد و بر تو گوارا است، و آن جناب مختار را لعنت كرد و مى‏فرمود: دروغ مى‏بندند بر خدا و بر ما، مختار دعوى مى‏كرد كه وحى خدا بر او نازل مى‏شود

 

In few reliable books, it is narrated that Mukhtar sent one hundred thousand dirham for Imam Zainul Abideen. But Imam wanted not to accept them. And he also feared that if he returned, than Mukhtar will create trouble for him, so he let the money at his home. When Mukhtar was killed, Imam wrote to Abdul Malik that this is your right, take it away. And he cursed Mukhtar and said, he would lie upon us, and he would claim that wahi of Allah reveals on me.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

[Panzerwaffe]

Mukhtar is indeed enigmatic and polarizing figure. Shias of today defend him unconditionally and he is condemned as a heretic by Sunnis of today 

on one hand, the propaganda against him was very strong because of the dual threat of pro zubayri ( Proto Sunni ) and pro Umayyad opposition who clearly vilified him 

on the flip side some pro Imami sources will naturally go out of their way to rehabilitate his image given that he punished  Hussains killers and started a pro mawali movement in Iraq ( some would say that seeds of the rebellion that eventually become Abbasid revolution) 

I just cannot understand if he was such a great Shia revolutionary why he got such a lukewarm response from old guard of Arab shias in Iraq ? 
how many of them abandoned him and would rather join ibn Zubayr to fight Umayyad’s ? 
even those who didn’t defect to ibn zubayr were not killed in his last stand , case in point kumail and Abu Tufayl who died much later. This Arab sparing inclination of mukhtars opponents is clearly evident when Shibath b ribea ( participant in Karbala against imam ) spares a very devout  Shia as he is from tribe of ziyad b khasafa ( who himself was a loyal follower of Ali ). Yet they ruthlessly killed Iranian followers of mukhtar 

tawabbun who essentially tried to do the same have a unambiguous legacy they are neutral to ibn zubayr and kufan nobles but very hostile to Umayyad’s. Mawali influence  in them is unclear. They are admired universally by all Muslims today 
 

Mukhtars reign seems on one hand more like a slaves revolt than an ideological Shia movement given the socio economic impact of his short lived rule. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

One thing to mention here that no harm reached to Ahlebait (عليه السلام) from Hazrat Mukhtar Saqafi (عليه السلام) as opposed to zubayris and ummayads.

[Abu Nur]

14 hours ago, sunnism said:

محمد بن الحسن و عثمان بن حامد، قالا حدثنا محمد بن يزداد الرازي، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن عبد الله المزخرف، عن حبيب الخثعمي، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال : كان المختار يكذب على علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام)۔

Muhammad b. al-Hasan and `Uthman b. Hammad (thiqah) said: Muhammad b. Yazdad ar-Razi (thiqah) narrated to us from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abi ‘l-Khattab (thiqah) from `Abdullah al-Mazkharaf (thiqah) from Habib al-Khath`ami (thiqah) from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام He said: Mukhtar used to lie against (or, about) `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام

Rijal Kashi, p. 125

 

ايضا به سند معتبر از امام محمد باقر عليه السلام روايت كرده است كه مختار نامه‏اى به خدمت حضرت امام زين العابدين عليه السلام نوشت و با هديه‏اى چند از عراق به خدمت آن جناب فرستاد، چون رسولان او به در خانه او رسيدند، رخصت طلبيدند كه داخل شوند، حضرت فرستاد كه: دور شويد كه من هديه دروغگويان را قبول نمى‏كنم و نامه ايشان را نمى‏خوانم

 

Similarly it is narrated with a reliable chain from Imam Baqir that Mukhtar wrote a letter to my father, alongwith gifts from Iraq. When the messengers reached the place of Imam, and asked to enter, Zainul Abideen said: Turn back, I don’t accept gifts from liars, and neither do I read their letters.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

در بعضى از كتب معتبر روايت كرده‏اند كه مختار براى امام زين العابدين عليه السلام صد هزار درهم فرستاد، و آن جناب نمى‏خواست كه آن را قبول كند، و ترسيد از مختار كه رد كند و از او متضرر گردد، پس آن حضرت آن مال را در خانه ضبط كرد. چون مختار كشته شد، حقيقت حال را به عبد الملك نوشت كه: آن مال تعلق به تو دارد و بر تو گوارا است، و آن جناب مختار را لعنت كرد و مى‏فرمود: دروغ مى‏بندند بر خدا و بر ما، مختار دعوى مى‏كرد كه وحى خدا بر او نازل مى‏شود

 

In few reliable books, it is narrated that Mukhtar sent one hundred thousand dirham for Imam Zainul Abideen. But Imam wanted not to accept them. And he also feared that if he returned, than Mukhtar will create trouble for him, so he let the money at his home. When Mukhtar was killed, Imam wrote to Abdul Malik that this is your right, take it away. And he cursed Mukhtar and said, he would lie upon us, and he would claim that wahi of Allah reveals on me.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

Yes, I'm amazed that people can still defend him.

[hawdini]

14 hours ago, sunnism said:

محمد بن الحسن و عثمان بن حامد، قالا حدثنا محمد بن يزداد الرازي، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن عبد الله المزخرف، عن حبيب الخثعمي، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال : كان المختار يكذب على علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام)۔

Muhammad b. al-Hasan and `Uthman b. Hammad (thiqah) said: Muhammad b. Yazdad ar-Razi (thiqah) narrated to us from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abi ‘l-Khattab (thiqah) from `Abdullah al-Mazkharaf (thiqah) from Habib al-Khath`ami (thiqah) from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام He said: Mukhtar used to lie against (or, about) `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام

Rijal Kashi, p. 125

 

ايضا به سند معتبر از امام محمد باقر عليه السلام روايت كرده است كه مختار نامه‏اى به خدمت حضرت امام زين العابدين عليه السلام نوشت و با هديه‏اى چند از عراق به خدمت آن جناب فرستاد، چون رسولان او به در خانه او رسيدند، رخصت طلبيدند كه داخل شوند، حضرت فرستاد كه: دور شويد كه من هديه دروغگويان را قبول نمى‏كنم و نامه ايشان را نمى‏خوانم

 

Similarly it is narrated with a reliable chain from Imam Baqir that Mukhtar wrote a letter to my father, alongwith gifts from Iraq. When the messengers reached the place of Imam, and asked to enter, Zainul Abideen said: Turn back, I don’t accept gifts from liars, and neither do I read their letters.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

در بعضى از كتب معتبر روايت كرده‏اند كه مختار براى امام زين العابدين عليه السلام صد هزار درهم فرستاد، و آن جناب نمى‏خواست كه آن را قبول كند، و ترسيد از مختار كه رد كند و از او متضرر گردد، پس آن حضرت آن مال را در خانه ضبط كرد. چون مختار كشته شد، حقيقت حال را به عبد الملك نوشت كه: آن مال تعلق به تو دارد و بر تو گوارا است، و آن جناب مختار را لعنت كرد و مى‏فرمود: دروغ مى‏بندند بر خدا و بر ما، مختار دعوى مى‏كرد كه وحى خدا بر او نازل مى‏شود

 

In few reliable books, it is narrated that Mukhtar sent one hundred thousand dirham for Imam Zainul Abideen. But Imam wanted not to accept them. And he also feared that if he returned, than Mukhtar will create trouble for him, so he let the money at his home. When Mukhtar was killed, Imam wrote to Abdul Malik that this is your right, take it away. And he cursed Mukhtar and said, he would lie upon us, and he would claim that wahi of Allah reveals on me.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

This exactly what my haters would say after i die

[123xo]

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, I'm amazed that people can still defend him.

Are you serious? And you claim to be a shia??!! 
Have you read history? Did you know he was killed because he was defending ahlu albait....

Also you probably have never been to Najaf, there's a small shrine there for him next to Masjid al kufa. He's buried next to Muslim ibn aqeel. And shias go visit him.

Edited April 10 by 123xo

[Abu Nur]

Just now, 123xo said:

Are you serious? And you claim to be a shia??!! 
Have you read history? Did you know he was killed because he was defending ahlu albait....

Also you probably have never been to Najaf, there's a small there for him next to Masjid al kufa. He's buried next to Muslim ibn aqeel.

Read the narrations, you can not say no to them.

[123xo]

2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Read the narrations, you can not say no to them.

No thanks i ain't reading narrations posted by @sunnism i have my own marja and i also have background knowledge and first hand experience as i've been to Najaf multiple times. 

Do you speak/understand Arabic? 

[Panzerwaffe]

2 hours ago, 123xo said:

Are you serious? And you claim to be a shia??!! 
Have you read history? Did you know he was killed because he was defending ahlu albait....

Also you probably have never been to Najaf, there's a small shrine there for him next to Masjid al kufa. He's buried next to Muslim ibn aqeel. And shias go visit him.

Then you must think really highly of the two elders who are buried next to our prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

[Panzerwaffe]

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, I'm amazed that people can still defend him.

Please add more reasons / evidence as to why you have such a negative image of Mukhtar 

 

to be clear I’m neutral but I lean towards doubting his intentions about almost everything as that’s whaT Arab shias  of Iraq did in his time 

Edited April 10 by Panzerwaffe

[Panzerwaffe]

7 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

One thing to mention here that no harm reached to Ahlebait (عليه السلام) from Hazrat Mukhtar Saqafi (عليه السلام) as opposed to zubayris and ummayads.

True 

but his old movement was based on alleged loyalty to ahlulbayt , and he had a very precarious reputation during his small tenure 

[145_turbo_16V]

Apparently you can also find narrations which praise him in Rijal Al-Kashi . Haven’t looked into them seriously. But Jilal Al Uyun is not a book I trust. My copy of Rijal Al Kashi is poor quality pdf so it’s not easy to search.

[123xo]

39 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Then you must think really highly of the two elders who are buried next to our prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

I didn't say we praise him cause of where he's buried? But rather for what he did. 

There's a very detailed series about him from shia's perspective but it's in Arabic.  I'd recommend for people to watch it as it will school y'all some history but again if you don't understand Arabic then it would be pointless. 
 

Edited April 10 by 123xo

[Panzerwaffe]

7 hours ago, 123xo said:

I didn't say we praise him cause of where he's buried? But rather for what he did. 

There's a very detailed series about him from shia's perspective but it's in Arabic.  I'd recommend for people to watch it as it will school y'all some history but again if you don't understand Arabic then it would be pointless. 
 

Which series ? You can post it 

I have people who can translate it 

there is Urdu series on him too 

more importantly the books in Arabic have been translated into other languages and according to them opinion on him is ambiguous 

if you give me a satisfactory reason why the Arab Shias of Iraq didn’t support him then I’ll reconsider my position 

Edited April 10 by Panzerwaffe

[Panzerwaffe]

7 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Apparently you can also find narrations which praise him in Rijal Al-Kashi . Haven’t looked into them seriously. But Jilal Al Uyun is not a book I trust. My copy of Rijal Al Kashi is poor quality pdf so it’s not easy to search.

http://librarsaduq.blogspot.com/2014/02/blog-post_16.html?m=1
will this work?

[123xo]

23 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Which series ? You can post it 

I have people who can translate it 

there is Urdu series on him too 

 

24 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

if you give me a satisfactory reason why the Arab Shias of Iraq didn’t support him then I’ll reconsider my position 

That's not true

[Panzerwaffe]

20 minutes ago, 123xo said:

 

That's not true

We have all seen this yrs ago nothing new here 

what’s not true ?

[SO SOLID SHIA]

9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Then you must think really highly of the two elders who are buried next to our prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 

 @123xo

 

'I didn't say we praise him cause of where he's buried?'

I mean you kinda did insinuate it

 

 

But listen big up man like Mokhtar each n every time for retribution ! Top Road Yout...

if the brothers wanna keep Khaled Ibn Waleed I think I'll use the UNO reverse and keep Mokhtar.

There are rules to this

Edited April 10 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Diaz]

I’m sorry but who is mokhtar?

[SO SOLID SHIA]

9 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I’m sorry but who is mokhtar?

Have you ever played Ghost of Tsushima ? 

He's like the shia Jin Sakai.

Or maybe more like Ezio from Assassin's creed. He rounded up the culprits who participated in the Karbala Massacre and tortured them...fiare fi bun dem rasssclart

Edited April 10 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Hugo Boss]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:23 PM, sunnism said:

محمد بن الحسن و عثمان بن حامد، قالا حدثنا محمد بن يزداد الرازي، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب، عن عبد الله المزخرف، عن حبيب الخثعمي، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال : كان المختار يكذب على علي بن الحسين (عليهما السلام)۔

Muhammad b. al-Hasan and `Uthman b. Hammad (thiqah) said: Muhammad b. Yazdad ar-Razi (thiqah) narrated to us from Muhammad b. al-Husayn b. Abi ‘l-Khattab (thiqah) from `Abdullah al-Mazkharaf (thiqah) from Habib al-Khath`ami (thiqah) from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام He said: Mukhtar used to lie against (or, about) `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام

Rijal Kashi, p. 125

 

ايضا به سند معتبر از امام محمد باقر عليه السلام روايت كرده است كه مختار نامه‏اى به خدمت حضرت امام زين العابدين عليه السلام نوشت و با هديه‏اى چند از عراق به خدمت آن جناب فرستاد، چون رسولان او به در خانه او رسيدند، رخصت طلبيدند كه داخل شوند، حضرت فرستاد كه: دور شويد كه من هديه دروغگويان را قبول نمى‏كنم و نامه ايشان را نمى‏خوانم

 

Similarly it is narrated with a reliable chain from Imam Baqir that Mukhtar wrote a letter to my father, alongwith gifts from Iraq. When the messengers reached the place of Imam, and asked to enter, Zainul Abideen said: Turn back, I don’t accept gifts from liars, and neither do I read their letters.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

در بعضى از كتب معتبر روايت كرده‏اند كه مختار براى امام زين العابدين عليه السلام صد هزار درهم فرستاد، و آن جناب نمى‏خواست كه آن را قبول كند، و ترسيد از مختار كه رد كند و از او متضرر گردد، پس آن حضرت آن مال را در خانه ضبط كرد. چون مختار كشته شد، حقيقت حال را به عبد الملك نوشت كه: آن مال تعلق به تو دارد و بر تو گوارا است، و آن جناب مختار را لعنت كرد و مى‏فرمود: دروغ مى‏بندند بر خدا و بر ما، مختار دعوى مى‏كرد كه وحى خدا بر او نازل مى‏شود

 

In few reliable books, it is narrated that Mukhtar sent one hundred thousand dirham for Imam Zainul Abideen. But Imam wanted not to accept them. And he also feared that if he returned, than Mukhtar will create trouble for him, so he let the money at his home. When Mukhtar was killed, Imam wrote to Abdul Malik that this is your right, take it away. And he cursed Mukhtar and said, he would lie upon us, and he would claim that wahi of Allah reveals on me.

 

Jila ul Ayun , by Baqir Majlisi, p. 805-807

 

 

When you quote some handpicked narrations that were upon taqiyyah to keep the Shias safe from being associated with him, be sure to include **from the same book, rijal al kashi, right next to the narration you picked that are speaking in favor of Mukthar**, I wonder why you only picked the ones that give him the bad light, while leaving the ones giving him glad tidings

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2932_اختيار-معرفة-الرجال-الشيخ-الطوسي-ج-١/الصفحة_363 

[Panzerwaffe]

43 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I’m sorry but who is mokhtar?

Depends on which version you want to believe 

[Panzerwaffe]

@SO SOLID SHIA I will go with that UNO reverse  too 

Edited April 10 by Panzerwaffe

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, SO SOLID SHIA said:

Have you ever played Ghost of Tsushima ? 

He's like the shia Jin Sakai.

Or maybe more like Ezio from Assassin's creed. He rounded up the culprits who participated in the Karbala Massacre and tortured them...fiare fi bun dem rasssclart

My cousin played it not me, and still I didn’t get you. 

 

23 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Depends on which version you want to believe 

I will be grateful if you share some narration.

[Abu Nur]

11 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Please add more reasons / evidence as to why you have such a negative image of Mukhtar 

 

to be clear I’m neutral but I lean towards doubting his intentions about almost everything as that’s whaT Arab shias  of Iraq did in his time 

Because according to our hadiths that one can not deny he lied about the beloved Imam (عليه السلام) and for me that is enough to view him in not that positive way. I'm not ageinst his revenge of course. Actually he was praised by Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) of his revenge actions.

What I understood is that Mukhtar as person our Imam (عليه السلام) did not see him well.

Edited April 11 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, Hugo Boss said:

 

When you quote some handpicked narrations that were upon taqiyyah to keep the Shias safe from being associated with him, be sure to include **from the same book, rijal al kashi, right next to the narration you picked that are speaking in favor of Mukthar**, I wonder why you only picked the ones that give him the bad light, while leaving the ones giving him glad tidings

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2932_اختيار-معرفة-الرجال-الشيخ-الطوسي-ج-١/الصفحة_363 

What is the grading of the narration 199?

Edited April 11 by Abu Nur

[Panzerwaffe]

4 hours ago, Diaz said:

My cousin played it not me, and still I didn’t get you. 

 

I will be grateful if you share some narration.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhtar_al-Thaqafi
here’s an intro 

narrations or Hadith regarding him are probably all partisan 

[Panzerwaffe]

4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Because according to our hadiths that one can not deny he lied about the beloved Imam (عليه السلام) and for me that is enough to view him in not that positive way. I'm not ageinst his revenge of course. Actually he was praised by Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) of his revenge actions.

What I understood is that Mukhtar as person our Imam (عليه السلام) did not see him well.

I agree 

but it begs the question why such a questionable supporter of imam embarked on such a huge task of avenging the blood of Hussain at great personal risk to himself ? Unless his motives were simply to use this as a political ploy to gain power in kufa 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 4/10/2024 at 6:38 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

True 

but his old movement was based on alleged loyalty to ahlulbayt , and he had a very precarious reputation during his small tenure 

What do you mean by precarious reputation? If you mean not a good reputation then one can also not ignore propagandists movement against him during his life time.

[123xo]

17 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

We have all seen this yrs ago nothing new here 

what’s not true ?

You asked for links and i delivered and now you complaining?
Wow

[123xo]

19 hours ago, Diaz said:

My cousin played it not me, and still I didn’t get you. 

 

I will be grateful if you share some narration.

Diaz akhiii don't listen to them, listen to me go watch the musalsal that i linked or read about him from shia sources. Most importantly don't listen to that @Panzerwaffe dude that claims that shia arabs are aganist almokhtar he's clueless probs never stepped a foot in the middle east too and his assumptions are only based on his limited interactions online.

Goodluck

xo

[123xo]

17 hours ago, SO SOLID SHIA said:

 @123xo

 

'I didn't say we praise him cause of where he's buried?'

I mean you kinda did insinuate it

Omg no i was schooling him some geography 

[SO SOLID SHIA]

9 minutes ago, 123xo said:

Omg no i was schooling him some geography 

I've been though ! I spent a lot of time in wadi as salam did you go there ..have you been to visit the grave of Syed Ali Qadhi? That's my man right there ...I spent a lot of time with him !

 

@Diaz definitely need to watch the series though ! It's better than Baywatch (just by a strand)

Edited April 11 by SO SOLID SHIA

[Panzerwaffe]

15 minutes ago, 123xo said:

You asked for links and i delivered and now you complaining?
Wow

Yeah and it’s not a new revelation 

[123xo]

2 minutes ago, SO SOLID SHIA said:

I've been though ! I spent a lot of time in wadi as salam did you go there ..have you been to visit the grave of Syed Ali Qadhi? That's my man right there ...I spent a lot of time with him !

Yeah i have, i think i bumped into you too there was a man licking the turbah and trying to stick it to his forehead, was that you ?