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In the Name of God بسم الله

Prophets don't leave inheritance.

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محمد بن الحسن وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن جعفر بن محمد الأشعري، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، وعلي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن القداح، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: من سلك طريقا يطلب فيه علما سلك الله به طريقا إلى الجنة وإن الملائكة لتضع أجنحتها لطالب العلم رضا به وإنه يستغفر لطالب العلم من في السماء ومن في الأرض حتى الحوت في البحر، وفضل العالم على العابد كفضل القمر على سائر النجوم ليلة البدر، وإن العلماء ورثة الأنبياء إن الأنبياء لم يورثوا دينارا ولا درهما ولكن ورثوا العلم فمن أخذ منه أخذ بحظ وافر.

 

Abu Abdillah (Imam Jafar as-Sadiq) says that Rasulullah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:..And the Scholars are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion. (Shia book, al-Kafi vol 1, H 57, Ch 4, h#1. Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Shia Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his Mirat al-Uqul: [This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq.[Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. [Miraat al-Uqul, vol. 1 page 111].

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في كتاب علل الشرايع باسناده إلى ابن أبي عمير عمن ذكره عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لما منع أبو بكر فاطمة عليها السلام فدكا وأخرج وكيلها جاء أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: إلى المسجد وأبو بكر جالس وحوله المهاجرون والأنصار فقال:  يا أبا بكر لم منعت فاطمة ما جعله رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لها ووكيلها فيه منذ سنين إلى قوله: فقال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام لأبي بكر: يا أبا بكر تقرأ القرآن؟قال: بلى، قال: فأخبرني عن قول الله عز وجل: (انما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا) فينا أو في غيرنا نزلت؟قال: فيكم، قال: فأخبرني لو أن شاهدين مسلمين شهدا على فاطمة عليها السلام بفاحشة ما كنت صانعا؟قال: كنت أقيم عليها الحد كما أقيم على نساء المسلمين، قال: كنت اذن عند الله من الكافرين، قال: ولم؟قال: لأنك كنت ترد شهادة الله وتقبل شهادة غيره، لان الله عز وجل قد شهد لها بالطهارة فإذا رددت شهادة الله وقبلت شهادة غيره كنت عند الله من الكافرين، قال: فبكى الناس وتفرقوا ودمدموا والحديث طويل أخذنا منه موضع الحاجة

In `Ilal ash-Shara’i`: By its isnad to Ibn Abi `Umayr from whom he narrated from from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

He said: When Abi Bakr prevented Fatima عليها السلام from Fadak, and ousted her caretaker, Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام came to the mosque, and Abi Bakr was sitting with the Muhajireen and the Ansar around him. So he said: O Abi Bakr! Why did you prevent Fatima and her caretaker from what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله gave her years ago? O Abi Bakr! Do you recite the Quran? He said: Of course. He said: So tell me about the saying of Allah عز وجل, “Surely, Allah only wants to remove uncleanliness from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification” (33:33) – was it revealed regarding us, or other than us? He said: Regarding you. He said: So inform me, if Muslim witnesses were to accuse Fatima عليها السلام of lewdness, what would you do? He said: I would punish her just as I would push other Muslim women. He said: Then to Allah, you would be of the disbelievers. He said: Why? He said: Because you would have rejected the testimony of Allah and accepted the testimony of other than Him, because Allah عز وجل testified of her purity. Thus, if you reject the testimony of Allah and accept the testimony of other than Him, then to Allah, you would be of the disbelievers. So the people wept, dispersed, and grumbled.

I don't see any problem with the Isnad here.

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

في كتاب علل الشرايع باسناده إلى ابن أبي عمير عمن ذكره عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: لما منع أبو بكر فاطمة عليها السلام فدكا وأخرج وكيلها جاء أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام: إلى المسجد وأبو بكر جالس وحوله المهاجرون والأنصار فقال:  يا أبا بكر لم منعت فاطمة ما جعله رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لها ووكيلها فيه منذ سنين إلى قوله: فقال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام لأبي بكر: يا أبا بكر تقرأ القرآن؟قال: بلى، قال: فأخبرني عن قول الله عز وجل: (انما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا) فينا أو في غيرنا نزلت؟قال: فيكم، قال: فأخبرني لو أن شاهدين مسلمين شهدا على فاطمة عليها السلام بفاحشة ما كنت صانعا؟قال: كنت أقيم عليها الحد كما أقيم على نساء المسلمين، قال: كنت اذن عند الله من الكافرين، قال: ولم؟قال: لأنك كنت ترد شهادة الله وتقبل شهادة غيره، لان الله عز وجل قد شهد لها بالطهارة فإذا رددت شهادة الله وقبلت شهادة غيره كنت عند الله من الكافرين، قال: فبكى الناس وتفرقوا ودمدموا والحديث طويل أخذنا منه موضع الحاجة

In `Ilal ash-Shara’i`: By its isnad to Ibn Abi `Umayr from whom he narrated from from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.

He said: When Abi Bakr prevented Fatima عليها السلام from Fadak, and ousted her caretaker, Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام came to the mosque, and Abi Bakr was sitting with the Muhajireen and the Ansar around him. So he said: O Abi Bakr! Why did you prevent Fatima and her caretaker from what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله gave her years ago? O Abi Bakr! Do you recite the Quran? He said: Of course. He said: So tell me about the saying of Allah عز وجل, “Surely, Allah only wants to remove uncleanliness from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification” (33:33) – was it revealed regarding us, or other than us? He said: Regarding you. He said: So inform me, if Muslim witnesses were to accuse Fatima عليها السلام of lewdness, what would you do? He said: I would punish her just as I would push other Muslim women. He said: Then to Allah, you would be of the disbelievers. He said: Why? He said: Because you would have rejected the testimony of Allah and accepted the testimony of other than Him, because Allah عز وجل testified of her purity. Thus, if you reject the testimony of Allah and accept the testimony of other than Him, then to Allah, you would be of the disbelievers. So the people wept, dispersed, and grumbled.

I don't see any problem with the Isnad here.

Quote the full chain. Illa ush sharai is written by saduq. Provide the chain between saduq and ibn abi umayr.

And this doesn't disprove my point. My point is prophets don't leave inheritance. This report saysit was gifted to fatima. 

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Quote

Quote the full chain. Illa ush sharai is written by saduq. Provide the chain between saduq and ibn abi umayr.

I try to find it out.

Quote

And this doesn't disprove my point. My point is prophets don't leave inheritance.

Your point have nothing problem.

Quote

This report saysit was gifted to fatima. 

So?

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

So?

If it was a gift, then you can't argue about prophet leaving inheritance. 

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1 hour ago, sunnism said:

Quote the full chain. Illa ush sharai is written by saduq. Provide the chain between saduq and ibn abi umayr.

Sadu'q said: أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1140_علل-الشرائع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-١/الصفحة_228#top

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1140_علل-الشرائع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-١/الصفحة_229#top

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sunnism said:

Quote the full chain. Illa ush sharai is written by saduq. Provide the chain between saduq and ibn abi umayr.

Salam lol, you have used a too weak & single hadith, without full chain from Illa ush sharai i in other thread for metamoprphism of Allah based on Wahabi viewpoint while when a hadith from it is against your viewpoint so then you have asked for a full chain :hahaha:

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Hmm. Chain is authentic

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13 hours ago, sunnism said:

محمد بن الحسن وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن جعفر بن محمد الأشعري، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، وعلي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن القداح، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: من سلك طريقا يطلب فيه علما سلك الله به طريقا إلى الجنة وإن الملائكة لتضع أجنحتها لطالب العلم رضا به وإنه يستغفر لطالب العلم من في السماء ومن في الأرض حتى الحوت في البحر، وفضل العالم على العابد كفضل القمر على سائر النجوم ليلة البدر، وإن العلماء ورثة الأنبياء إن الأنبياء لم يورثوا دينارا ولا درهما ولكن ورثوا العلم فمن أخذ منه أخذ بحظ وافر.

 

Abu Abdillah (Imam Jafar as-Sadiq) says that Rasulullah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:..And the Scholars are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion. (Shia book, al-Kafi vol 1, H 57, Ch 4, h#1. Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Shia Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his Mirat al-Uqul: [This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq.[Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. [Miraat al-Uqul, vol. 1 page 111].

Hadeeth specifically mentions `scholars` hence there's no point of having dirham & dinars as `inheritance` for them. Even if you read the name of chapter its coming from you would've known. Hadith doesn't talk about `children`. There is inheritence for `children` in which the parents leave and this ruling comes from Quran.

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12 hours ago, sunnism said:

Quote the full chain. Illa ush sharai is written by saduq

Hadiths from him are considered authentic and here's chain:

(باب 151 - العلة التي من أجلها أمر خالد بن الوليد بقتل أمير المؤمنين " ع ")
 أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير عمن ذكره عن أبي عبد الله " ع " قال

Sadooq from his Father from Ali Bin Ibrahim from his Father from Ibn Abu Umair (Ashaab al ijma) whos hadith is authentic by ijma of scholars as said in Ikhteyar Marifatul rijal (rijal al kashi).

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Even in sunni narrations, people didn't believe in this fabricated tradition see example:

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ، وَالْعَبَّاسَ ـ عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلاَمُ ـ أَتَيَا أَبَا بَكْرٍ يَلْتَمِسَانِ مِيرَاثَهُمَا مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهُمَا حِينَئِذٍ يَطْلُبَانِ أَرْضَيْهِمَا مِنْ فَدَكَ، وَسَهْمَهُمَا مِنْ خَيْبَرَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُمَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ لاَ نُورَثُ، مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ، إِنَّمَا يَأْكُلُ آلُ مُحَمَّدٍ مِنْ هَذَا الْمَالِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَدَعُ أَمْرًا رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَصْنَعُهُ فِيهِ إِلاَّ صَنَعْتُهُ‏.‏ قَالَ فَهَجَرَتْهُ فَاطِمَةُ، فَلَمْ تُكَلِّمْهُ حَتَّى مَاتَتْ‏.‏

Narrated `Aisha:

Fatima and Al `Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following during his lifetime concerning this property." Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.

Both Syeda (عليه السلام) and Abbas came making claims regarding inheritance and when AbuBakr told them about hadith, Syeda (عليه السلام) got angry and never spoke to him and she died.
Proof that she didn't admit hadith rather got angry. And even before that, they came asking for inheritance which no one would've if "we have no inheritance" was such a widespread hadith. it's such a hadith that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't even teach to his family? Seriously?

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Also if Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) leaves behind everything as charity, then all wives of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have usrped charity of ummah by living in house of Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Who allowed them to stay in property that was supposed to be charity?

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53 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Hadeeth specifically mentions `scholars` hence there's no point of having dirham & dinars as `inheritance` for them. Even if you read the name of chapter its coming from you would've known. Hadith doesn't talk about `children

The hadith means that prophets only leave knowledge as inheritance not dirham and deenar and because they left only knowledge, scholars are their inheritors. 

 

59 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

There is inheritence for `children` in which the parents leave and this ruling comes from Quran.

Ruling in the quran in general. There are many general ruling in quran and it's exceptions are mentioned in the sunnah. 

 

35 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Even in sunni narrations, people didn't believe in this fabricated tradition see example:

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ، وَالْعَبَّاسَ ـ عَلَيْهِمَا السَّلاَمُ ـ أَتَيَا أَبَا بَكْرٍ يَلْتَمِسَانِ مِيرَاثَهُمَا مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهُمَا حِينَئِذٍ يَطْلُبَانِ أَرْضَيْهِمَا مِنْ فَدَكَ، وَسَهْمَهُمَا مِنْ خَيْبَرَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لَهُمَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ لاَ نُورَثُ، مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ، إِنَّمَا يَأْكُلُ آلُ مُحَمَّدٍ مِنْ هَذَا الْمَالِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَدَعُ أَمْرًا رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَصْنَعُهُ فِيهِ إِلاَّ صَنَعْتُهُ‏.‏ قَالَ فَهَجَرَتْهُ فَاطِمَةُ، فَلَمْ تُكَلِّمْهُ حَتَّى مَاتَتْ‏.‏

Narrated `Aisha:

Fatima and Al `Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following during his lifetime concerning this property." Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.

Both Syeda (عليه السلام) and Abbas came making claims regarding inheritance and when AbuBakr told them about hadith, Syeda (عليه السلام) got angry and never spoke to him and she died.
Proof that she didn't admit hadith rather got angry. And even before that, they came asking for inheritance which no one would've if "we have no inheritance" was such a widespread hadith. it's such a hadith that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't even teach to his family? Seriously?

That's not an argument. When ali arrived from yemen, fatima told him that prophet commanded her to wear dyed clothes and ali got angry at her and went to rasulullah to confirm. 

وقدم عليٌّ من اليمنِ ببُدنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ . فوجد فاطمةَ رضي اللهُ عنها ممن حلَّ . ولبست ثيابًا صبيغًا . واكتحلَت . فأنكر ذلك عليها . فقالت : إنَّ أبي أمرني بهذا . قال : فكان عليٌّ يقول بالعراقِ : فذهبتُ إلى رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ مُحَرِّشًا على فاطمةَ . للذي صنعت . مُستفتيًا رسولَ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ فيما ذكرتْ عنه . فأخبرتُه أني أنكرت ُذلك عليها . فقال : صدقتْ صدقت ْ.

 

[…(In a long narration he says)…`Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing annoyance at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.]

al-Tusi:

 

محمد بن علي بن محبوب عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام ومحمد بن الحسين وعلي بن السندي والعباس كلهم عن صفوان عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام

 

Narrates it in al-Tahdheeb and al-Amali, his chains are as follows:

 

1- Muhammad bin `Ali bin Mahboub, from Ya`qoub bin Yazid, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- Muhammad bin Husayn, and `Ali bin al-Sindi, and al-`Abbas, all of them, from Safwan, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

As far as prophet not telling the family about it, then that can be also used against you. You believe that fatima was gifted the property of farak. Why didn't anyone among the wives knew this, that they also demanded their own share from abu bakr. As far as abbas is concerned then that is also against you. Since abbas asked his own share from the property. That means he also have no idea that prophet gifted fatima a property which he also is entitled to inherit. 

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39 minutes ago, laithAlIRAQI said:

prophet Dawud & Zakariyya left inheritance, so i do not understand the argument sunnis make that they dont when the quran is clear.

That inheritance is general. It doesn't explain which type of inheritance. Hadith specifies it

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, sunnism said:

The hadith means that prophets only leave knowledge as inheritance not dirham and deenar and because they left only knowledge, scholars are their inheritors. 

 

your understanding is in contradiction with Quran / teachings of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) / and common sense. This hadith is for scholars and in context of ilm there is no base for inheritance of dirhams / dinaar rather its purely knowledge. When it comes to inheritance related to properties, same rules apply as Quran has mentioned and those that are in other ahadith of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) that clearly negate your absurd claim.

6 hours ago, sunnism said:

Ruling in the quran in general. There are many general ruling in quran and it's exceptions are mentioned in the sunnah. 

 

Ruling of inheritance is aam and includes everyone. Previous prophets had hires too and inherited physical things if we go in tafaseer not just knowledge. 

 

6 hours ago, sunnism said:

That's not an argument. When ali arrived from yemen, fatima told him that prophet commanded her to wear dyed clothes and ali got angry at her and went to rasulullah to confirm. 

وقدم عليٌّ من اليمنِ ببُدنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ . فوجد فاطمةَ رضي اللهُ عنها ممن حلَّ . ولبست ثيابًا صبيغًا . واكتحلَت . فأنكر ذلك عليها . فقالت : إنَّ أبي أمرني بهذا . قال : فكان عليٌّ يقول بالعراقِ : فذهبتُ إلى رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ مُحَرِّشًا على فاطمةَ . للذي صنعت . مُستفتيًا رسولَ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ فيما ذكرتْ عنه . فأخبرتُه أني أنكرت ُذلك عليها . فقال : صدقتْ صدقت ْ.

 

[…(In a long narration he says)…`Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing annoyance at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.]

al-Tusi:

 

محمد بن علي بن محبوب عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام ومحمد بن الحسين وعلي بن السندي والعباس كلهم عن صفوان عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام

 

Narrates it in al-Tahdheeb and al-Amali, his chains are as follows:

 

1- Muhammad bin `Ali bin Mahboub, from Ya`qoub bin Yazid, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- Muhammad bin Husayn, and `Ali bin al-Sindi, and al-`Abbas, all of them, from Safwan, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

I haven't even used `anger` of syeda fatimah (عليه السلام) to prove something against sheikhein yet. that's why i tell you people to read carefully before responding. i am saying, Syeda (عليه السلام) got angry when she heard hadith, it means she denied the hadith and repeatedly members of family came to AbuBakr demanding inheritance from what Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) left proves the never accepted this hadith "we prophets don't leave dirham dinaar as inheritance whatever we leave is sadaqa". Even Umar confimed it in a hadith that both Ali (عليه السلام) & Abbas had a negative view of AbuBakr and him regarding this matter. Again, read properly first, then reply.

Now, point is, ruling of Prophets never leaving inheritance is to be told to FAMILY FIRST rather than other people. and if family themselves denied it, got angry and held negative views against people who said this, then its very clear that this hadith is a fabrication. you cannot compare this hadith:

Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this

To hadeeth of inheritance as they are completely different in terms of significance and importance.

Besides Ali (عليه السلام) went back to confirm. Now there are chances of Ali (عليه السلام) not knowing  Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told Fatimah (عليه السلام) something that isn't very important or as significant as ruling on inhteritance. its like comparing apples to oranges. who on earth of deem a ruling given to someone privately to wear some clothes with ruling of no inheritance which family of prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never knew about? even though it only made sense to tell family clearly this hadeeth as others have nothing to do with this.

Now, as for shia view, this hadith surely has been narrated due to taqqiyah because Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are masoom & these kind of traditions are reported by our narrators to save themselves their religion and their lives and to speard shia islam further. in the end this hadith proves nothing to you.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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32 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

your understanding is in contradiction with Quran / teachings of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) / and common sense. This hadith is for scholars and in context of ilm there is no base for inheritance of dirhams / dinaar rather its purely knowledge. When it comes to inheritance related to properties, same rules apply as Quran has mentioned and those that are in other ahadith of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) that clearly negate your absurd claim.

Your interpretation would make sense if hadith didn't said " Prophet didn't leave dirhams and deenars as inheritance". If your interpretation is true then the hadith would have said " Scholars don't inherit dirhams and deenars from prophets but only inherit knowledge".

37 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Ruling of inheritance is aam and includes everyone. Previous prophets had hires too and inherited physical things if we go in tafaseer not just knowledge. 

I never denied that ruling of inheritance is general in quran. I said many times exceptions are mentioned in sunnah. And those narrations in tafaseer about prophets inheriting physical things are weak. 

41 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Even Umar confimed it in a hadith that both Ali (عليه السلام) & Abbas had a negative view of AbuBakr and him regarding this matter. Again, read properly first, then reply

In the same narration, ali and abbas accepted that prophets don't leave inheritance. 

 

42 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now, point is, ruling of Prophets never leaving inheritance is to be told to FAMILY FIRST rather than other people. and if family themselves denied it, got angry and held negative views against people who said this, then its very clear that this hadith is a fabrication. you cannot compare this hadith

I have debunked this here. 

7 hours ago, sunnism said:

As far as prophet not telling the family about it, then that can be also used against you. You believe that fatima was gifted the property of farak. Why didn't anyone among the wives knew this, that they also demanded their own share from abu bakr. As far as abbas is concerned then that is also against you. Since abbas asked his own share from the property. That means he also have no idea that prophet gifted fatima a property which he also is entitled to inherit

 

43 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Besides Ali (عليه السلام) went back to confirm. Now there are chances of Ali (عليه السلام) not knowing  Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) told Fatimah (عليه السلام) something that isn't very important or as significant as ruling on inhteritance. its like comparing apples to oranges. who on earth of deem a ruling given to someone privately to wear some clothes with ruling of no inheritance which family of prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never knew about? even though it only made sense to tell family clearly this hadeeth as others have nothing to do with this.

The point that not being important as inheritance doesn't prove anything. The point is fatima said that her father commanded her to do this and he went to messenger of allah to confirm. Why did he need to confirm? 

 

46 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now, as for shia view, this hadith surely has been narrated due to taqqiyah because Ahlebait (عليه السلام) are masoom & these kind of traditions are reported by our narrators to save themselves their religion and their lives and to speard shia islam further. in the end this hadith proves nothing to you.

That's just an assumption. 

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11 hours ago, sunnism said:

That inheritance is general. It doesn't explain which type of inheritance. Hadith specifies it

Read the rest of the verses then.

وَوَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانُ دَاوُودَ ۖ وَقَالَ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عُلِّمْنَا مَنْطِقَ الطَّيْرِ وَأُوتِينَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ ۖ إِنَّ هَٰذَا لَهُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْمُبِينُ وَحُشِرَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ جُنُودُهُ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنْسِ وَالطَّيْرِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ
Solomon inherited from David, and he said, ‘O people! We have been taught the speech of the birds, and we have been given out of everything. Indeed this is a manifest advantage.’ [Once] Solomon’s hosts were marched out for him, comprising jinn, humans and birds, and they were held in check.
 [27:16]

Hmm. I think "everything" (كُلِّ شَيْءٍ) refers to more than just knowledge, which is one thing... not to mention the jinn, humans and birds. I think knowledge and hosts are different things... that's just me tho

What about the other verse?

وَإِنِّي خِفْتُ الْمَوَالِيَ مِنْ وَرَائِي وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا فَهَبْ لِي مِنْ لَدُنْكَ وَلِيًّا يَرِثُنِي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ ۖ وَاجْعَلْهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّا 
Indeed I fear my kinsmen, after me, and my wife is barren. So grant me from Yourself an heir who may inherit from me and inherit from the House of Jacob, and make him, my Lord, pleasing [to You]!’
[19:5-6]

If the inheritors are only scholars, as you claim:

12 hours ago, sunnism said:

they left only knowledge, scholars are their inheritors. 

then why did Zakariyya (عليه السلام) have to ask for an heir? There were scholars around him, so why couldn't they be his heir, if the only thing they were inheriting was knowledge? And why did he say that he fears for his kinsmen, if the only thing he is leaving behind is knowledge, and not money and property?

Your "explanation" does not check out. Sorry mate.

https://www.seratonline.com/32921/lady-fatimas-a-s-absolute-right-to-fadak-through-quranic-verses-of-inheritance/

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, sunnism said:

 

وقدم عليٌّ من اليمنِ ببُدنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ . فوجد فاطمةَ رضي اللهُ عنها ممن حلَّ . ولبست ثيابًا صبيغًا . واكتحلَت . فأنكر ذلك عليها . فقالت : إنَّ أبي أمرني بهذا . قال : فكان عليٌّ يقول بالعراقِ : فذهبتُ إلى رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ مُحَرِّشًا على فاطمةَ . للذي صنعت . مُستفتيًا رسولَ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ فيما ذكرتْ عنه . فأخبرتُه أني أنكرت ُذلك عليها . فقال : صدقتْ صدقت ْ.

 

[…(In a long narration he says)…`Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing annoyance at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.]

Salam this has been refuted previously in  below threads  while you have ignored refutation to this report by repeating same accusation again & again without reading the refutation :blabla:

 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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12 hours ago, علوي said:

then why did Zakariyya (عليه السلام) have to ask for an heir? There were scholars around him, so why couldn't they be his heir, if the only thing they were inheriting was knowledge? And why did he say that he fears for his kinsmen, if the only thing he is leaving behind is knowledge, and not money and property?

Your "explanation" does not check out. Sorry mate.

Zakariya asked for a spiritual heir. He was afraid of his kinsmen that they wouldn't change his religion.

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^
But according to you, his “spiritual heir” can be just a scholar. So he would’ve already had many potential “heirs”.

But the verse isn’t talking about inheritance of knowledge, it’s talking about inheritance of wealth as well. 
 

And what about the other verse? When you try to respond to my posts, respond to the whole thing, not just parts of it.

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Posted (edited)

Authentic hadith says Prophet gave her while he was alive as gift. How it can be then inheritance from our perspective?

The Prophet (saws) family knows very well of all the Islamic laws, if the narration of inheritance (from Sunni perspective) is true then you literally are saying Fatima (عليه السلام) insist to haram which is absolute false contradicting to quran verse 33:33.

 

Edited by Abu Nur
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27 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Authentic hadith says Prophet gave her while he was alive as gift. How it can be then inheritance from our perspective?

The Prophet (saws) family knows very well of all the Islamic laws, if the narration of inheritance (from Sunni perspective) is true then you literally are saying Fatima (عليه السلام) insist to haram which is absolute false contradicting to quran verse 33:33.

 

This point is to prove that the narrations about fatima quoting verses about inheritance are not true. 

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2 minutes ago, sunnism said:

This point is to prove that the narrations about fatima quoting verses about inheritance are not true. 

What about your narrations where Abu bakr refer it as inheritance? You think fatima makes such an argument knowingly the rules of inheritance?

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3 hours ago, علوي said:

^
But according to you, his “spiritual heir” can be just a scholar. So he would’ve already had many potential “heirs”.

But the verse isn’t talking about inheritance of knowledge, it’s talking about inheritance of wealth as well. 
 

And what about the other verse? When you try to respond to my posts, respond to the whole thing, not just parts of it.

This point also backfires you. Why did zakariya was asking allah for a heir even though his wife will be the inheritor of his property. It is well known that zakariyyah was poor, and our interpretation make sense because zakariya said 'who will inherit me and inherit the house of yaqub'. What is house of yaqub is famous for? Prophethood and knowledge. 

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2 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

What about your narrations where Abu bakr refer it as inheritance? You think fatima makes such an argument knowingly the rules of inheritance?

That's our hadith. In our view, fatima only asked her as inheritance and didn't claim that it was gifted to her. Abu bakr quoted the hadith, fatima left him and got angry at him. In one narration, it is said fatima became pleased at him before her death and in another narration she didn't. 

But in your view, fatima claimed that it was gifted to her, then she claimed inheritance, but your narrations says that prophet don't leave inheritance. And you also believe that fatima was infallible. Sunnis don't believe fatima was infallible, so her not knowing about the inheritance issue doesn't contradict our claim

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

Prophet only leaves knowledge as inheritance right? How property can be inherited to wife? 

I am using this argument against him. He is claiming that zakriyah asked allah for a heir because he is afraid about his property from his kinsmen. I am saying why is he asking for a heir when his wife can inherit his property. 

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3 minutes ago, sunnism said:

That's our hadith. In our view, fatima only asked her as inheritance and didn't claim that it was gifted to her. Abu bakr quoted the hadith, fatima left him and got angry at him.

In your hadith Fatima literally sinned that literally goes against the verse of purity 33:33. In the verse 33:33 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give purity to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) such that they can not sin.

Quote

But in your view, fatima claimed that it was gifted to her, then she claimed inheritance, but your narrations says that prophet don't leave inheritance. And you also believe that fatima was infallible. Sunnis don't believe fatima was infallible, so her not knowing about the inheritance issue doesn't contradict our claim

There can not be two different sahih hadith about one issue and both of them are correct in one issue, either it is gift or inheritance. It is more logical that it is gift.

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

In your hadith Fatima literally sinned that literally goes against the verse of purity 33:33. In the verse 33:33 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give purity to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) such that they can not sin.

Firstly, fatima didn't sinned. And secondly 33:33 doesn't make anyone an infallible. 

 

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

It is more logical that it is gift.

How is that more logical. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, sunnism said:

Firstly, fatima didn't sinned.

If we assume that the inheritance narration is correct, while Fatima know the law, asking something that goes against the law is Haram.

Quote

And secondly 33:33 doesn't make anyone an infallible. 

I have argued about infallibility before and you went away from the conversation, it is actually very annoying that you do that often. The 33:33 clearly state about the iradah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) meaning that He keeps them away the rijs and purify them, in such a state, one can not make sins.

Quote

How is that more logical. 

We have sahih narration that Prophet don't leave dirham as inheritance. If we take it as true, then Fatima (عليه السلام) would not ask about inheritance, thus it must be that she asked about a property that Prophet (saws) gave her before.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

If we assume that the inheritance narration is correct, while Fatima know the law, asking something that goes against the law is Haram.

Not at all. It means she knew the general law about inheritance but didn't knew about a specific ruling about prophet's not leaving inheritance. 

 

16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I have argued about infallibility before and you went away from the conversation, it is actually very annoying that you do that often. The 33:33 clearly state about the iradah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) meaning that He keeps them away the rijs and purify them, in such a state, one can not make sins

That's probably the only time when I didn't respond. Apart from that, if I don't respond to a particular argument, then it means I already know what they would say and refuted it earlier. 

As far as iradah then it still doesn't prove infalliblity. We know people of badr were purified from impurities of shaytan. And you responded that they were purified only for the event of badr Or something similar to this ( I don't remember) . By your logic it would mean that they become infallible for badr and then become fallible again. You want me to believe in this. You come up with a homemade rule and want everyone to believe in it. 

16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

We have sahih narration that Prophet don't leave dirham as inheritance. If we take it as true, then Fatima (عليه السلام) would not ask about inheritance, thus it must be that she asked about a property that Prophet (saws) gave her before.

That's just circular logic

Edited by sunnism
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sunnism said:

Not at all. It means she knew the general law about inheritance but didn't knew about a specific ruling about prophet's not leaving inheritance. 

This is very weak argument, it amaze me that you really can come to conclusion that Prophet daughter with the status she have don't know specific ruling of inheritance and that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) her husband who is the best of judge did not teach her before going to ask about inheritance. Amazing. I really want to stop here, because if your mind reach only to this capacity that you think Fatima did not know this little ruling, I will not expect anything for you take any of us seriously. This is the dumbest statement so far I have heard from you.

Quote

That's probably the only time when I didn't respond. Apart from that, if I don't respond to a particular argument, then it means I already know what they would say and refuted it earlier. 

More than once. And again you are false in your judgement, because there was nothing you have refuted at all in the beginning.

Quote

As far as iradah then it still doesn't prove infalliblity. We know people of badr were purified from impurities of shaytan. And you responded that they were purified only for the event of badr Or something similar to this ( I don't remember) . By your logic it would mean that they become infallible for badr and then become fallible again. You want me to believe in this. You come up with a homemade rule and want everyone to believe in it. 

It is very clear that they were given all these attributes mentioned in verse that is related to the battle only. Shaytan whispered them causing them fear but then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) remove their fear. The verse 33:33 is very different from 8:11, here Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give them everlasting purity because of His Iradah.

If they were given purity of heart like 33:33, then shaytan whispers will never effect them after badr, but it did, so it was only given in badr.

Quote

That's just circular logic


I formed it wrongly. Add to the premises also that Fatima (عليه السلام) is also infallible and Siddiqe, and aware of all Islamic laws because she inherited her father knowledge, these can be proven from our narrations, then you can not come to conclusion That she ask about her inheritance, because it would a contradiction. Gift would be more logical.

 

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This is very weak argument, it amaze me that you really can come to conclusion that Prophet daughter with the status she have don't know specific ruling of inheritance and that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) her husband who is the best of judge did not teach her before going to ask about inheritance. Amazing. I really want to stop here, because if your mind reach only to this capacity that you think Fatima did not know this little ruling, I will not expect anything for you take any of us seriously. This is the dumbest statement so far I have heard from you.

It amazes you because you have apre concieved notion that fatima must knew every single thing. All these are emotional arguments. Nothing else. Again circular logic. 

 

9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

More than once. And again you are false in your judgement, because there was nothing you have refuted at all in the beginning.

More than once? Prove it. As far as turning away from points, then you all done this. In one of my threads about imamah, none of them dared to touched the second point. 

 

9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is very clear that they were given all these attributes mentioned in verse that is related to the battle only. Shaytan whispered them causing them fear but then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) remove their fear. The verse 33:33 is very different from 8:11, here Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give them everlasting purity because of His Iradah.

If they were given purity of heart like 33:33, then shaytan whispers will never effect them after badr, but it did, so it was only given in badr.

Oh really then how about this

 

62:2

هُوَ ٱلَّذِى بَعَثَ فِى ٱلْأُمِّيِّـۧنَ رَسُولًۭا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُوا۟ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـٰتِهِۦ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا۟ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِى ضَلَـٰلٍۢ مُّبِينٍۢ ٢

 

He is the One Who raised for the illiterate ˹people˺ a messenger from among themselves—reciting to them His revelations, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and wisdom, for indeed they had previously been clearly astray—

 

Getting purified by messenger of allah means purified by allah. 

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