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Allah is above his arsh

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Narrated Abi Baseer from one of the 2 Imams(عليه السلام) who said: Don’t reject hadith which has come to you people through Murj’i, Qadari and Kharji attributed to us, for verily you people don’t know for it is something from the truth and (by rejecting it) you would lie upon Allah (who is) above His Arsh(Throne).

[Ilal al-Sharai, vol 2, page 111 ; Majlisi Graded it’s “Chain as Sahih” in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 4, page 314] 

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Posted (edited)

اسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ

“He rose above the Throne” (7:54).

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “You are the Most High and there is nothing above You…”

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)

The Imams (عليه السلام) said that the meaning is "He is equal in distance to everything. Therefore, He is not closer to one thing than to another. What is far is not far from Him, and what is close is not close to Him".

It is nothing to do with physical or that He is encompassed etc.

The Imam (عليه السلام) said

"Whoever claims that Allah is from something or in something or on something, then he has certainly disbelieved. "

Edited by Abu Nur
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19 hours ago, sunnism said:

[Ilal al-Sharai, vol 2, page 111 ; Majlisi Graded it’s “Chain as Sahih” in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 4, page 314]

Sauch claim has been spread by anti Shia by Wahabi sites while they they have not mentioned that this book in similar fashion of Bihar Al-Anwar is collection of all types of Hadith whether authentic  or non authentic which has been written based on Akhbari style about collecting all types of Hadiths which in shia viewpoint about such books we compare any hadith with holy Quran so then if it has been matched with it so then it will accepted but on the other hand if it has not mtched with holy Quran so then it will be thrown at waal even it has been accustomed to any infallible Imams which even in your mentioned Wahid (too weak single) hadith name or title of infallible Imam (عليه السلام) has not been mentioned which it likewise you say I have heard something  from someone in a crowded place that hhas been full of noise which in this case the mentioned hadith is Wahid (too weak single) hadith which doesn't match with holy Quran also in many authentic Shia hadiths specially in four main Shia books " Murj’i, Qadari and Kharji  people have been cursed 7 have been considered as as untrustworthy people which even Qadari (Mu'tazila) people have been mentioned by Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) as M-aj-oo-s of this Ummah which Murj’i (Ash'ari) are other side of coin of Qadari which also Khariji people are not trustworthy people due to their clear enmity with Amir Al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so in conclusion all three groups are untrustworthy people so there fore any narrations which have been narrated by them is not authentic .

 

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The book has been criticized by some of Usulis like al-Wahid al-Bihbahani, because al-Shaykh al-Saduq tried merely to gather hadiths without regard to its authenticity.[12]

 

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Position and Authenticity

Due to the content of the book which is about the reasons of the religious obligations and phenomena, the book was noticed since the time of compiling. The scholars like Qadi al-Nu'man, in his Sharh al-akhbar,[9] al-'Allama al-Majlisi in his Bihar al-anwar,[10] al-Shaykh al-Hurr al-'Amili in his Wasa'il al-shi'a,[11] etc. benefited from the book and referred to it.

The book has been criticized by some of Usulis like al-Wahid al-Bihbahani, because al-Shaykh al-Saduq tried merely to gather hadiths without regard to its authenticity.[12]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ilal_al-sharayi'_(book)

 

It is narrated from Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) that he said that the Qadris are the Magi of this nation, they are the ones who want to describe God with justice, as a result, they have limited God's sovereignty. Allamah [Tabatabai] says: I say that what is meant by Qadari is those who deny predestination, and these are the Mu'tazila who believe in delegation (Tafwid).

The words of Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) mean those who support justice and limit the power of God; And this is the opinion of Mu'tazila. The word of Ash'ari is injustice and Mu'tazila limit the power of God and are in favor of justice because they attribute the action to man and deny it from God.

Al-Mizan fi Tafsir al-Qur'an  V 19 , P 89

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نظر علامه در المیزان: ابتدا عبارتی از علامه طباطبایی در المیزان را نقل مینماییم. علامه در کتاب خود ذیل آیهی ﴿"إِنَّا کُلَّ شَيْ‌ءٍ خَلَقْناهُ بِقَدَرٍ﴾[1] ﴿وَ ما أَمْرُنا إِلاَّ واحِدَةٌ کَلَمْحٍ بِالْبَصَرِ"﴾[2] یعنی البته ما هر چیز را به اندازه آفریدیم * و فرمان ما یک امر بیش نیست ، همچون یک چشم بر هم زدن! آورده است: "في كمال الدين، بإسناده إلى علي بن سالم عن أبي عبد الله ع قال: سألته عن الرقى أ تدفع من القدر شيئا؟ فقال: هي من القدر. و قال: إن القدرية مجوس هذه الأمة- و هم الذين أرادوا أن يصفوا الله بعدله- فأخرجوه من سلطانه و فيهم نزلت هذه الآية: ﴿يَوْمَ يُسْحَبُونَ فِي النَّارِ عَلى‌ وُجُوهِهِمْ- ذُوقُوا مَسَّ سَقَرَ[3] ﴿إِنَّا كُلَّ شَيْ‌ءٍ خَلَقْناهُ بِقَدَرٍ[4] . أقول: المراد بالقدرية النافون للقدر و هم المعتزلة القائلون بالتفويض."[5]

[5] الميزان في تفسير القرآن، العلامة الطباطبائي، ج19، ص89.

https://www.eshia.ir/feqh/archive/text/abedi/osool/97/971010/

https://eshia.ir/feqh/archive/text/abedi/osool/97/971015

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/حدیث_القدریة_مجوس_هذه_الأمة

https://hawzah.net/fa/Article/View/77291/جُستاری-درباره-حدیثِ-اَلْقَدَریّةُ-مَجْوسُ-هذهِ-الاُمة

According To ayatollah Makrem Shirazi

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In the end, it is necessary to point out that evidence shows that the science of the purposes of the Shari'ah  (Ilal al-sharayi') may become an excuse for jurisprudential chaos in the future, and jurisprudence will move toward the common law (making  Urfi ) of rulings, and under the pretext of "the purposes of the Shari'ah", fixed jurisprudential rulings will sometimes be changed ; The formation and originality of Islamic jurisprudence is endangered by some. We hope that prominent Islamic jurists will pay attention to this point and prevent the misuse of topics related to the purposes of Sharia.(Ilal al-sharayi')

https://www.makarem.ir/maaref/fa/article/index/410515/مقاصد-الشریعة-و-علل-الشرایع

 

One of the meanings of Arsh "throne" is the position of "governance, ownership, and management of the world of existence", because even in the usual applications of the word "throne" it is used as an allusion to the dominance of a ruler over the affairs of his country, we say: فلانٌ ثَلَّ عُرْشهُ" is a pointing about the fact that his power collapsed, and in Farsi we also say: "The foundations of his throne were broken."


Another meaning of Arsh "throne"" is "collection of the universe"; Because everything is a sign of his greatness and sometimes "throne"«عرش» (Arsh) is used to mean "upper world" and "chair"(Kursi) is used to mean "lower world".


And sometimes "Arsh" is used to mean "supernatural world" and "chair"(Kursi) is used to mean the totality of the material world, including the earth and the sky, as stated in "Ayat al-Kursi":
«وَسِعَ کُرْسَیُّهُ السَّمواتِ وَ الاَرْضَ».
And since Allah's creations and knowledge are not separate from His pure essence, sometimes "Arsh" is referred to "Allah's knowledge".


And if the pure heart of the servants with faith is called «عرش الرحمان» "Arsh al-Rahman", it is because it is the place of knowledge of his pure essence, and a sign of the signs of his greatness and power.


Therefore, in each case, it should be understood from the evidence which one of its meanings is meant by "Throne", but in any case, they all agree that "Throne" expresses the greatness and majesty of Allah. (8)

https://makarem.ir/maaref/fa/article/index/319012/منظور-از-واژه-«العَرْش»،-در-آیات-قرآن

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, sunnism said:

Narrated Abi Baseer from one of the 2 Imams(عليه السلام) who said: Don’t reject hadith which has come to you people through Murj’i, Qadari and Kharji attributed to us, for verily you people don’t know for it is something from the truth and (by rejecting it) you would lie upon Allah (who is) above His Arsh(Throne).

[Ilal al-Sharai, vol 2, page 111 ; Majlisi Graded it’s “Chain as Sahih” in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 4, page 314] 

Salam authenticity has been mentioned in his document from Abi Baseer by Sheikh Saduq (رضي الله عنه) not the Chain which  this line is just a part of other narrations in this page that rejection hadith from such people is not equivalent lying upon to Allah because maybe there is something from truth in their report but it must be refuted or rejected or accepted  by comparing it with holy Quran & frequent reports when a Murj’i, Qadari and Kharji attributed to us,

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وروى الصدوق في العلل بإسناده الصحيح عن أبي بصير عن أحدهما عليهما‌السلام قال : لا تكذبوا بحديث أتاكم به مرجىء ولا قدري ولا خارجي نسبه إلينا ، فإنكم لا تدرون لعله شيء من الحق فتكذبوا الله عز وجل فوق عرشه.

Narrated Abi Baseer from one of the 2 Imams(عليه السلام) who said: Don’t reject hadith which has come to you  through Murj’i,Don't [...] Qadari and Don't [....] Kharji attributed to us, for verily you people don’t know for it is something from the truth and if you reject it  Allah (who is) above His Arsh(Throne).

https://ar.lib.eshia.ir/71429/4/314

which says in last line of page

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ويحتمل أن يكون المراد بالخبر التكذيب الذي يكون بمحض الرأي من غير أن يعرضه على الآيات والأخبار المتواترة ، وأيضا فرق بين عدم رد الخبر وتكذيبه

It is possible that what is meant by the report is a refutation that is based on pure opinion without presenting it to verses and frequent reports. There is also a difference between not refuting the report and denying it.

https://ar.lib.eshia.ir/71429/4/314

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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23 hours ago, sunnism said:

Allah (who is) above His Arsh(Throne).

وَهُوَ الْقَاهِرُ فَوْقَ عِبَادِهِ ۚ وَهُوَ الْحَكِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ ‎﴿١٨﴾‏

And He is the All-dominant over His servants, and He is the All-wise, the All-aware. (18)

https://tanzil.net/#6:18

 

وَالْمَلَكُ عَلَىٰ أَرْجَائِهَا ۚ وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَانِيَةٌ ‎﴿١٧﴾

with the angels all over it, and the Throne of your Lord will be borne that day by eight [angels]. (17) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/69:17

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6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Adove His arsh does not mean He sits on it, or He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is on it.

Correct. He is above the arsh in a manner unlike his creation

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17 hours ago, Qadri_01 said:

Correct. He is above the arsh in a manner unlike his creation

You can accept the arabic statement  "Thumma Astawá `Alá Al-`Arshi" as itself as truth without inteprating it's meaning and if that what you mean here then that is fine. But every statement of Quran have intepration and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows them.

We may know the intepration of the astawa al arsh, but we can never know it's essence.

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22 hours ago, Qadri_01 said:

Correct. He is above the arsh in a manner unlike his creation

Salam if you consider Allah in a specific position above or beneath something of his creation likewise considering him in specific place above Arsh so then it will be metamorphosis & limiting him  which it against Islamic teachings for both of Sunni & shia muslims .

which Wahabi/salafi imagination from Allah is in similar fashion of hindus from their deities which some of  them s different hands than hands of humans or rest in special place likewise greek gods which considering any specific place for Allah & considering him Above or beneath of it is in opposition of Islamic teachings for both of Sunni &shia Muslism. 

 

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7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

You can accept the arabic statement  "Thumma Astawá `Alá Al-`Arshi" as itself as truth without inteprating it's meaning and if that what you mean here then that is fine. But every statement of Quran have intepration and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows them.

We may know the intepration of the astawa al arsh, but we can never know it's essence.

We know the meaning of "istiwa". It means rising.

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12 hours ago, Qadri_01 said:

We know the meaning of "istiwa". It means rising.

Here the meaning is only from the human perspective that defined the word by observing the reality that is limited. For God rising is different in meaning, and thus it can only be an referring of God attribute/name. Because whatever it is, it can only lead to referring something about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attribute / name.

There is two things about the attributes, God attributes themselves and referring of His Attributes. And it is fine to leave the referring of His Attributes if one can not derive what attribute it talks about.

For example

Verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are under Our Eyes.}

Does not mean that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have literal eyes, but rather it refer the description of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributes  that is of Guardianship and Oversight. But we can say using the limitation of language that we are under Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) eyes.

In the end we can only refer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) attributes and Names but we can never go further than that, because only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) know Himself.

Edited by Abu Nur
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13 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam if you consider Allah in a specific position above or beneath something of his creation likewise considering him in specific place above Arsh so then it will be metamorphosis & limiting him  which it against Islamic teachings for both of Sunni & shia muslims .

which Wahabi/salafi imagination from Allah is in similar fashion of hindus from their deities which some of  them s different hands than hands of humans or rest in special place likewise greek gods which considering any specific place for Allah & considering him Above or beneath of it is in opposition of Islamic teachings for both of Sunni &shia Muslism. 

 

The most horrible thing in the circle of Sunnis today is the influence of false salafi belief that the early salaf believed in literal sense of these words, eyes, hands but then they leave the details alone.

Here the Sunni Shaykh describe it well:

 

Edited by Abu Nur
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1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

The most horrible thing in the circle of Sunnis today is the influence of false salafi belief that the early salaf believed in literal sense of these words, eyes, hands but then they leave the details alone.

Here the Sunni Shaykh describe it well:

 

This sunni sheikh is in error. I can quote multiple narrations from salaf who used 'allah being above his arsh' as a refutation for jahmiyyah who used to believe allah is everywhere. This alone refutes the points of neo- asharis who interpreted allah being above his arsh as grandeur. 

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6 minutes ago, sunnism said:

This sunni sheikh is in error. I can quote multiple narrations from salaf who used 'allah being above his arsh' as a refutation for jahmiyyah who used to believe allah is everywhere. This alone refutes the points of neo- asharis who interpreted allah being above his arsh as grandeur. 

Can you quote sahih narrations where the salaf take them as literal sense.

The Sunni scholar says says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is everywhere in His knowledge.

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18 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Can you quote sahih narrations where the salaf take them as literal sense.

The Sunni scholar says says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is everywhere in His knowledge.

I will quote it tomorrow.  As for now, I will respond to few posts here and there, and then go to sleep. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2024 at 8:29 AM, Qadri_01 said:

Allah being above us is a matter which is even known through fitrah of humans

There is no 'up' and no 'down'...it's human beings that assign 'direction' to 'this way' or 'that way' based on limited perception...you're dangling on a spinning ball located in the middle of nowhere...the fitra knows Allah is transcendent...believers looking upward occasionally is merely symbolic representation of this...Allah isn't located in the north, south, east or west...He doesn't literally live in the Kaa'bah nor does he reside in the Ark of the Covenant...all the directions as well as space and time are His creations and belong to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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