Adalah of companions

[sunnism]

Anyone for debate? 

[Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim]

Salam

Surah Auli-Imran emphasizes even the original group of believers can turn on their backs - even though they are praised in that Surah, and praised through out Quran.  So let alone those who fought the Nabi (a) and only came to Islam reluctantly, the chances of the latter group turning on their backs are greater.  And in fact, the overwhelming number of people who fought the Nabi (a) hating on Ali (a) made some of the original praised believers who that group fought, reluctant, to come show their support. They were tried of battle. But the followers of Ali (a) being outnumbered, he decided not to plunge them to their death.  He Knew people would see his and their martyrdom as a selfish act for power. 

At the end there are hadiths praising companions of Mohammad (s) such as Misbahal Shariah and a good du'a regarding them in Sahifa Sajjadiya.  I don't believe only 3-7 stayed true.  The lines of Imam Jaffar (a) regarding speaking conjecture about companions of Mohammad (S) without knowledge in Misbahal Shariah, probably refers to the spread of those hadiths.

I believe they were outnumbered and not enough of original believers were willing to fight. However a great portion of them stayed true, it just was not enough.  However, as they were not tested to fight as they were slow to show that support,  they did end up helping in other ways such spreading hadiths about Ahlullbayt (a) and keeping the message about them. So will God judge them harshly, I don't think so.  For if Imam Ali (A) called them, a great portion of those slow, might've responded. We don't know.

As for a great portion of those who fought Rasool (s) and who were forgiven in time of Rasool (s) and promised good, but no where near the reward of those who fought and spent and strove from the start, they were happy that things happened the way they happened, and hated Ali (a) for killing many of their heroes and people.  

At the end, waiting of Imam Ali (a) changed a great amount of even those people to good and reformed them.  But then a great portion bought with money during Imam Hassan (a), and the tables began to turn from then on against Ahlulbayt (a). Imam Hassan (a) had little choice, he needed to save believers, and save the fight for another day.

One thing to note is that it was unlikely that companions of Mohammad (s) not support Imam Ali (a).  But it was unlikely Bani-Israel after patiently waiting begin to worship a golden calf statue and later to give trouble and question Musa (a). 

It's unfortunate when believers after being praised by God such as bani-Israel begin to turn on their backs and become insincere to God's chosen. In case of Bani-Israel they went through intense trials and were praised heavily for it by God. But unfortunately, they are volatile. 

[sunnism]

10 hours ago, Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim said:

Surah Auli-Imran emphasizes even the original group of believers can turn on their backs - even though they are praised in that Surah, and praised through out Quran.  So let alone those who fought the Nabi (a) and only came to Islam reluctantly, the chances of the latter group turning on their backs are greater.  And in fact, the overwhelming number of people who fought the Nabi (a) hating on Ali (a) made some of the original praised believers who that group fought, reluctant, to come show their support. They were tried of battle. But the followers of Ali (a) being outnumbered, he decided not to plunge them to their death.  He Knew people would see his and their martyrdom as a selfish act for power.

Those who were praised by allah and his messenger can never turn back. Those who apostated after the prophet are well known. Those people are arab tribes who followed false prophets. As far as muhajireen and ansar, people of tree and rest of sahaba, they are not only praised in quran but also in torah and injeeel. 

And one thing, stop writing long posts. Summarize your points. 

[Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim]

5 hours ago, sunnism said:

Those who were praised by allah and his messenger can never turn back.

هَا أَنْتُمْ هَٰؤُلَاءِ تُدْعَوْنَ لِتُنْفِقُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يَبْخَلُ ۖ وَمَنْ يَبْخَلْ فَإِنَّمَا يَبْخَلُ عَنْ نَفْسِهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنْتُمُ الْفُقَرَاءُ ۚ وَإِنْ تَتَوَلَّوْا يَسْتَبْدِلْ قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَكُونُوا أَمْثَالَكُمْ {38}

[shakir 47:38] Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.

 

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ ۚ أَفَإِنْ مَاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انْقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَىٰ أَعْقَابِكُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ يَنْقَلِبْ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَنْ يَضُرَّ اللَّهَ شَيْئًا ۗ وَسَيَجْزِي اللَّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ {144}

[shakir 3:144] And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
[Pickthal 3:144] Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
[Yusufali 3:144] Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

 

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ حَتَّىٰ نَعْلَمَ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ مِنْكُمْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ وَنَبْلُوَ أَخْبَارَكُمْ {31}

[Pickthal 47:31] And verily We shall try you till We know those of you who strive hard (for the cause of Allah) and the steadfast, and till We test your record.

 

 

From what I understand, when Allah promises paradise or promises hell, they are conditional that the person remains in either state, the blessed or condemned.

 

An interesting thing, the same Surah where it's mentioned "will you turn on your backs?" if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) dies or is killed, it mentions:

 

وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنْتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُمْ بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنْتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ فَأَنْقَذَكُمْ مِنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ {103}

[shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {104}

[shakir 3:104] And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful.

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُوا وَاخْتَلَفُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ{105}

[3:105] And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear proofs had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement.

يَوْمَ تَبْيَضُّ وُجُوهٌ وَتَسْوَدُّ وُجُوهٌ ۚ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ اسْوَدَّتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ أَكَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ فَذُوقُوا الْعَذَابَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْفُرُونَ {106}

[shakir 3:106] On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved.

وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ ابْيَضَّتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ فَفِي رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ {107}

[shakir 3:107] And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah's mercy; in it they shall-abide.

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ يُرِيدُ ظُلْمًا لِلْعَالَمِينَ {108}

[shakir 3:108] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth, and Allah does not desire any injustice to the creatures.

 

 

 

What is interesting too about this Surah it mentions the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran being chosen above the worlds. Then it has the event of Mubahila where the Nafs of the Rasool is Ali, his sons are Hassan and Hussain, and his women is Fatima. 

 

And it's this Surah it's emphasized if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is slain or killed, will they turn on their backs. And we see before that the verse I just posted, talking about sticking to God's rope and not becoming like those in the past who divided from God's rope after clear proofs had come to them.

 

The Quran and family of Mohammad is said to not separate and the two weighty things left by the Prophet on Ghadeer.  The Surah begins with saying no one knows the interpretation of the Quran but God and the firmly rooted in knowledge. 

 

And before that it in the Surah it mentions to obey God and obey the Messenger and to not turn on their backs. Then mentions the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran. 

 

The mubahila event has specifically a few people specifically chosen for the event, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain along with the Rasool. 

 

These are indeed implicit signs.

 

It's obvious there was a chance people would turn on their backs and that is why the verses 3:103-108 are warning the people to stick to the rope of God and not turn on their backs after clear proofs differing from the path that God ordained on the believers through a rope from him.  Then it talks about people who faith turned into disbelief, and so to not be like those people. 

 

Then later it's stated if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) dies or is killed, will they turn on their backs. 

 

I think this makes it manifest that's it's a real possibility that it happens.

[sunnism]

4 hours ago, Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim said:

هَا أَنْتُمْ هَٰؤُلَاءِ تُدْعَوْنَ لِتُنْفِقُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَمِنْكُمْ مَنْ يَبْخَلُ ۖ وَمَنْ يَبْخَلْ فَإِنَّمَا يَبْخَلُ عَنْ نَفْسِهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنْتُمُ الْفُقَرَاءُ ۚ وَإِنْ تَتَوَلَّوْا يَسْتَبْدِلْ قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَكُونُوا أَمْثَالَكُمْ {38}

[shakir 47:38] Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.

 

وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ ۚ أَفَإِنْ مَاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انْقَلَبْتُمْ عَلَىٰ أَعْقَابِكُمْ ۚ وَمَنْ يَنْقَلِبْ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَنْ يَضُرَّ اللَّهَ شَيْئًا ۗ وَسَيَجْزِي اللَّهُ الشَّاكِرِينَ {144}

[shakir 3:144] And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
[Pickthal 3:144] Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.
[Yusufali 3:144] Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

 

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ حَتَّىٰ نَعْلَمَ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ مِنْكُمْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ وَنَبْلُوَ أَخْبَارَكُمْ {31}

[Pickthal 47:31] And verily We shall try you till We know those of you who strive hard (for the cause of Allah) and the steadfast, and till We test your record.

 

 

From what I understand, when Allah promises paradise or promises hell, they are conditional that the person remains in either state, the blessed or condemned.

 

An interesting thing, the same Surah where it's mentioned "will you turn on your backs?" if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) dies or is killed, it mentions:

 

وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنْتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُمْ بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنْتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِنَ النَّارِ فَأَنْقَذَكُمْ مِنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ {103}

[shakir 3:103] And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.

وَلْتَكُنْ مِنْكُمْ أُمَّةٌ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى الْخَيْرِ وَيَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ {104}

[shakir 3:104] And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful.

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُوا وَاخْتَلَفُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ{105}

[3:105] And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear proofs had come to them, and these it is that shall have a grievous chastisement.

يَوْمَ تَبْيَضُّ وُجُوهٌ وَتَسْوَدُّ وُجُوهٌ ۚ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ اسْوَدَّتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ أَكَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ فَذُوقُوا الْعَذَابَ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْفُرُونَ {106}

[shakir 3:106] On the day when (some) faces shall turn white and (some) faces shall turn black; then as to those whose faces turn black: Did you disbelieve after your believing? Taste therefore the chastisement because you disbelieved.

وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ ابْيَضَّتْ وُجُوهُهُمْ فَفِي رَحْمَةِ اللَّهِ هُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ {107}

[shakir 3:107] And as to those whose faces turn white, they shall be in Allah's mercy; in it they shall-abide.

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ يُرِيدُ ظُلْمًا لِلْعَالَمِينَ {108}

[shakir 3:108] These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth, and Allah does not desire any injustice to the creatures.

 

 

 

What is interesting too about this Surah it mentions the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran being chosen above the worlds. Then it has the event of Mubahila where the Nafs of the Rasool is Ali, his sons are Hassan and Hussain, and his women is Fatima. 

 

And it's this Surah it's emphasized if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is slain or killed, will they turn on their backs. And we see before that the verse I just posted, talking about sticking to God's rope and not becoming like those in the past who divided from God's rope after clear proofs had come to them.

 

The Quran and family of Mohammad is said to not separate and the two weighty things left by the Prophet on Ghadeer.  The Surah begins with saying no one knows the interpretation of the Quran but God and the firmly rooted in knowledge. 

 

And before that it in the Surah it mentions to obey God and obey the Messenger and to not turn on their backs. Then mentions the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran. 

 

The mubahila event has specifically a few people specifically chosen for the event, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain along with the Rasool. 

 

These are indeed implicit signs.

 

It's obvious there was a chance people would turn on their backs and that is why the verses 3:103-108 are warning the people to stick to the rope of God and not turn on their backs after clear proofs differing from the path that God ordained on the believers through a rope from him.  Then it talks about people who faith turned into disbelief, and so to not be like those people. 

 

Then later it's stated if Mohammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) dies or is killed, will they turn on their backs. 

 

I think this makes it manifest that's it's a real possibility that it happens.

No problem. All these verses fit upon the apostated whom sayyiduna abu bakr siddiq and other companions fought. 

Your only proof against adalah sahabah is that there were hypocrites disguised as companions and some of them apostated after the prophet. But this argument can also be used by a kharji or nasbi against ali and His companions like ammar. 

[Qadri_01]

To know which companion was a hypocrite or apostated after the prophet boils down to the hadith books that one follows. To know the truth, we must look at the historical facts agreed by both ahlus sunnah and tashayyu. One of which is the marriage of uthman. It is a robust proof that prophet viewed him as a virtuous man

[realizm]

35 minutes ago, sunnism said:

But this argument can also be used by a kharji or nasbi against ali and His companions like ammar. 

Yes, but the expected attitude of a true believer goes against that of a khariji, and a nasibi is someone who obviously failed to recognise figures that have been blessed and who blessed the umma. 

So for us, the Qur'anic texts clearly are references to the Non Systematic Adalah of Sahaba. You know, one funny thing is that you accuse us of revering Ahl al Bayt (a) but we do not have problems excluding Hashemite characters when they were judged as non reliable, like Aqil ibn Abi Talib, brother of Ali (a), or certain sons of Imams.

You sunnis have your 'infaillible' figures as well (you get my point, do not take it literally), that's fine, we respect them to some extent, but you have taken that concept too far by extending it and making a core belief. 

 

[sunnism]

31 minutes ago, realizm said:

So for us, the Qur'anic texts clearly are references to the Non Systematic Adalah of Sahaba. You know, one funny thing is that you accuse us of revering Ahl al Bayt (a) but we do not have problems excluding Hashemite characters when they were judged as non reliable, like Aqil ibn Abi Talib, brother of Ali (a), or certain sons of Imams

We don't accuse you for ghuluw for the whole ahlul bayt. We know that you don't respect other members of ahlul bayt like jafar bin imam hadi whom you call kadhab. 

 

31 minutes ago, realizm said:

You sunnis have your 'infaillible' figures as well (you get my point, do not take it literally), that's fine, we respect them to some extent, but you have taken that concept too far by extending it and making a core belief.

We don't have infallibility of sahabah. We know very well that many of them committed minor and major sins. But they were praised even after they committed those sins. And you should not talk about making something a core belief. Adalah sahabah is more deserving of being a core belief than imamah. And why not companions were heavily praised in the quran while there is nothing about imamah of 12 imams

[Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim]

3 hours ago, sunnism said:

No problem. All these verses fit upon the apostated whom sayyiduna abu bakr siddiq and other companions fought. 

Your only proof against adalah sahabah is that there were hypocrites disguised as companions and some of them apostated after the prophet. But this argument can also be used by a kharji or nasbi against ali and His companions like ammar. 

Salam

It was in response to saying those who are praised could never turn on their backs.

[tempered_steel]

16 hours ago, sunnism said:

Those who were praised by allah and his messenger can never turn back. Those who apostated after the prophet are well known. Those people are arab tribes who followed false prophets. As far as muhajireen and ansar, people of tree and rest of sahaba, they are not only praised in quran but also in torah and injeeel. 

And one thing, stop writing long posts. Summarize your points. 

If you're going to make a claim you'd need to provide proof, take the example of Banu Israel as a counter example. Also, I don't believe being praised should stop the criticism nor would it guarantee a successful end.

4 hours ago, sunnism said:

We don't have infallibility of sahabah. We know very well that many of them committed minor and major sins. But they were praised even after they committed those sins. And you should not talk about making something a core belief. Adalah sahabah is more deserving of being a core belief than imamah. And why not companions were heavily praised in the quran while there is nothing about imamah of 12 imams

That should be reason enough to criticize their actions, would you have followed the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ) if he was not infallible/purified?

[layman]

19 hours ago, sunnism said:

Those who were praised by allah and his messenger can never turn back. Those who apostated after the prophet are well known.

Both followers of Ali (عليه السلام) and Aisha fought bloody battle in Jamal.  Talha and Zubair sided with Aisha and got killed.  Were  not both of them praised by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (according to you)? Or Ali (عليه السلام), Talha and Zubair will all see each other in heaven!!! 

[sunnism]

6 hours ago, tempered_steel said:

If you're going to make a claim you'd need to provide proof, take the example of Banu Israel as a counter example. Also, I don't believe being praised should stop the criticism nor would it guarantee a successful end.

Same argument can be used against ahlul bayt. 

6 hours ago, tempered_steel said:

That should be reason enough to criticize their actions, would you have followed the Prophet (صَلَّى ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ) if he was not infallible/purified?

If that is a reason to criticise them, then you will have to criticise every companion even those whom you revere

4 hours ago, layman said:

Both followers of Ali (عليه السلام) and Aisha fought bloody battle in Jamal.  Talha and Zubair sided with Aisha and got killed.  Were  not both of them praised by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (according to you)? Or Ali (عليه السلام), Talha and Zubair will all see each other in heaven!!! 

Both of them praised in the quran. Both of them are among the grand muhajireen. 

[Guest111]

What conditions would you say excludes a companion from being deemed as having adalah? How do you regard people such as Muawiya or Amr ibn Al-As for what they did in the fitna with Ali (عليه السلام)?

[sunnism]

58 minutes ago, Guest111 said:

What conditions would you say excludes a companion from being deemed as having adalah? How do you regard people such as Muawiya or Amr ibn Al-As for what they did in the fitna with Ali (عليه السلام)?

Apostasy. As far as muawiya and amr, the most that can be said is that they committed a major sin. That proves nothing, companions were praised after they committed major sins. 

[layman]

On 3/7/2024 at 4:22 AM, sunnism said:

Both of them praised in the quran. Both of them are among the grand muhajireen.

Will "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)" allow both of them (Talha and Zubair) to fight in bloody battle (and were killed) against Ali (عليه السلام) who was the elected Khalifah and from Ahlulbayt?

[sunnism]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:25 AM, layman said:

Will "Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)" allow both of them (Talha and Zubair) to fight in bloody battle (and were killed) against Ali (عليه السلام) who was the elected Khalifah and from Ahlulbayt?

No. And answer the question which I asked

[Muslim2010]

10 hours ago, layman said:

Both followers of Ali (عليه السلام) and Aisha fought bloody battle in Jamal.  Talha and Zubair sided with Aisha and got killed.  Were  not both of them praised by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (according to you)? Or Ali (عليه السلام), Talha and Zubair will all see each other in heaven!!! 

We do not take all the companions as of adil and of equal rank. We categorize them on the basis of verses of quran and historical background in three groups and detail has been provided in the following link:

 

Edited March 7 by Muslim2010

[sunnism]

50 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

We do not take all the companions as of adil and of equal rank. We categorize them on the basis of verses of quran and historical background in three groups and detail has been provided in the following link:

 

We don't believe that they are of equal rank also. As far as you categorization, then it is false. Because your categorize make one believe that those companions who were praised and those who were criticised are two different groups. Which is false. Both are the same group. The proof is that quran criticise those companions who fled from the battlefied, and in these verses ammar, miqdad, and abu dhar are included because according to your authentic narrations, they too fled from the battlefield. And they are also included in those verses who are praised in the quran. 

Quran criticise the companions whenever they commit errors, minor and major sins and then he praised them. 

As far as verses about hypocrites, then it doesn't prove anything. A nasbi will use those verses against ali and his companions. 

[Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim]

Companions cannot be proven to be bad by Quran, because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his Messenger (s) built them to be good.  This even true of the people who were forgiven after fighting the Rasool (s) and oppressing believers.  So let alone, the believers who fought them and were true (not talking about those who when tested with fighting commands became hypocrites).

However,  Surah Auli-Imran highlights the fact, the did flee in battle before and said this is due to some of their sins.  Yes, forgiven, but the Surah tone is that they are volatile and it emphasizes on them to hold on to rope of God and not turn on their backs after clear proofs come to them like many past believers did after their founding Messengers.

Surah Auli-Imran shows even the best among them, and emphasizes they can turn on their backs, so let alone those who fought the Rasool (s) and only accepted after the victory.  

However, the Sunni viewpoint is the companions overall could not turn on their backs and hence couldn't have betrayed Ali (a) and hence there was no betrayal and hence Imam Ali (a) was never appointed by God and his Messenger (s).  That is proven false per Quran. They are volatile like rest of believers that followed founding Messengers in the past but betrayed the successors to that Messenger after. 

This doesn't mean the original believers most of them turned on their backs. To that, see my first reply.   Also, see how Imam Ali (a) praised the companions of Mohammad (s) in Nahjul Balagha.  He says he didn't see the like of them.

Imam Ali (a) although aware that many times people betrayed the successors, said, it didn't occur to him and surprised him that the people took away the rulership from him.   Yes, Imam Ali (a| was briefed if it occurs, do this and that by Rasool (s), and always knew it was possible, but it was highly improbable.

The Sunnis highlight how can these companions who were tried so hard and strove, and did all they did, betray Ali (a). And they are to extent right, it was highly unexpected that they let this happen.  However, I will say it again, although not enough of them showed support to fight in start, the ones who were slow, didn't also betray Imam Ali (a) in the sense that he called them to fight and they said no. It was just it was a volatile and risky situation,  if only his followers and supporters, they maybe all killed and Imam Ali (A) being accused of being greedy for power.  The companions however did spread ahadith about Ahlulbayt (a).   As they weren't tried with the command to fight, the judgment on their slow support, is up to God.  It was unexpected these elites a great portion of them turn apathetic to the situation, but still humanly understandable,  they fought so much up to that point.  Imam Ali (a) says the judgment is up to God for their apathy.   It depends on what they did (did they do anything to help and support Ali (a) at all), and up to God to judge them. Yet this does diminish their rank as compared to those who showed support to the extent they were willing to fight.

However, surah Auli-Imran shows even the original believers were volatile, they ran during battle due to sins and were warned in this flow, not to turn on their backs after Rasool (s) as well.  The nafs of Rasool (s) stated to be Ali (a) in this Surah also flows with that.

[145_turbo_16V]

Seems like the argument of if a person is praised, no matter what happens, they get a "get out of jail free card".

 

The truth is:

فَمَنْ يَّعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَّرَهٗۚ

وَمَنْ يَّعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَّرَهٗ

 

Edited March 7 by 145_turbo_16V

[sunnism]

Just now, 145_turbo_16V said:

Seems like the argument of if a person is praised, no matter what happens, they get a "get out of jail free card".

 

The truth is:

فَمَنْ يَّعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَّرَهٗۚ

 

Duh. If a person is praised by allah and his messenger even afterhe commited major sin and before he was going to commit a sin, what other conclusion would you make. 

[145_turbo_16V]

Why would Allah praise someone if he commits a major sin? LOL. You must be a big believer in

 إِذَاذُكِرَ أَصْحَابِي فَأَمْسِكُو

 

[sunnism]

13 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Why would Allah praise someone if he commits a major sin? LOL. You must be a big believer in

 إِذَاذُكِرَ أَصْحَابِي فَأَمْسِكُو

 

Do you believe ammar, abu dharr and miqdad are praised in the quran and sunnah ? Yes. But they also fled from battles of uhud and hunayn according to your authentic narrations. Here you go. 

[tempered_steel]

8 hours ago, sunnism said:

Same argument can be used against ahlul bayt.

That's not the same, it's divine authority (and purification) vs praise.

You still haven't provided proof that a praised individual/community will always remain that way, where I have given a counter example, are you able to touch on that?

8 hours ago, sunnism said:

If that is a reason to criticise them, then you will have to criticise every companion even those whom you revere

We are fine with that, it's the other camp that has placed a sort of "infallibility" on questioning them, as @realizm put it, even knowing that they have sinned prior and without guarantees that their actions reflect what's best for Islam.

1 hour ago, sunnism said:

Quran criticise the companions whenever they commit errors, minor and major sins and then he praised them. 

Just a clarification, if the companions are criticized it's limited to an action, but if praised it follows them till the end of their life?

1 hour ago, sunnism said:

As far as verses about hypocrites, then it doesn't prove anything. A nasbi will use those verses against ali and his companions. 

That would be a claim, claims need to be substantiated, same applies to you (that you made a claim, not the claim quoted above) and myself.

[Qadri_01]

3 hours ago, sunnism said:

Do you believe ammar, abu dharr and miqdad are praised in the quran and sunnah ? Yes. But they also fled from battles of uhud and hunayn according to your authentic narrations. Here you go. 

I always thought of this. Shia will proudly say that only ali was there to save the prophet, but forgetting how that will prove that companions who hold in high esteem also wasn't there to protect the messenger of allah

[Guest111]

On 3/7/2024 at 11:38 AM, sunnism said:

Apostasy. As far as muawiya and amr, the most that can be said is that they committed a major sin. That proves nothing, companions were praised after they committed major sins. 

But how can someone like Muawiya rebel against not one but two rightful khulafa (Ali (عليه السلام) and Hasan (as)) with no indication of repentance and still be deemed just? I can't seem to find any justification for his actions.

[145_turbo_16V]

22 hours ago, sunnism said:

Do you believe ammar, abu dharr and miqdad are praised in the quran and sunnah ? Yes. But they also fled from battles of uhud and hunayn according to your authentic narrations. Here you go. 

According to some sources in Uhud, ALL companions ran except for Ali AS. Even Abu Dujana and Suhail. But many came back. Even in Hunanin, this was an issue since Hunain was in a narrow valley. We don’t know exactly if the companions fled for their lives or just tried to regroup or retreating a bit.
 

Praising doesn’t mean a guarantee.You’re saying that once someone is praised they are saved. That’s not true. These verses are conditional

رَّضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is pleased with those of good conduct. Of course no sahaba is perfect, some are better than the others. They made mistakes and they repented. Except for Ali AS. In both Uhud and Hunain he was steadfast, no others can match him, definitely not Abu Bakr.

Ammar, Abu Dharr will have to stand before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just like anyone else. We do not know where they will end up. Indeed the Sahaba including Umar, Abu Bakr, Did sacrifice for Islam, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will surely reward them. But some of them committed big mistakes. We pray that the sahaba who were true to Rasulullah SAW will attain jannah. 

[Muslim2010]

On 3/7/2024 at 11:58 AM, sunnism said:

We don't believe that they are of equal rank also. As far as you categorization, then it is false

The baseless assumptions cannot be accepted unless there is some true evidence for your false conjectures. and the evidence is missing.

[Muslim2010]

23 hours ago, sunnism said:

We don't believe that they are of equal rank also. As far as you categorization, then it is false. Because your categorize make one believe that those companions who were praised and those who were criticised are two different groups. Which is false. Both are the same group.

For the First group Quran Praising the companions  the following verses can be quoted:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that he has promised for those as given below:

“Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

Not all of them has been promised only those who believe and do righteous deeds among them"  

thus categorization is well proven.

 

These are the companions who are believers and forgiveness and great reward (paradise) has been promised from them. The above verse indicates that this promise is only for the believers doing the righteous deeds and it excludes those who do not perform the righteous deeds.

 

Edited March 8 by Muslim2010

[145_turbo_16V]

18 hours ago, Qadri_01 said:

I always thought of this. Shia will proudly say that only ali was there to save the prophet, but forgetting how that will prove that companions who hold in high esteem also wasn't there to protect the messenger of allah

But that is according to some historical accounts. At Uhud according to some sources only  3 remained, Abu Dujana, Suhail. And Ali. Ibn Masud refuted this and said even Abu Dujana and Suhail fled but came back, some sahaba did come back. Sahaba have great status, they sacrificed for Islam and nobody can deny that. But they are not ma’sum and their bravery cannot match Ali’s. Even during khandaq, nobody would stand up against Amr bin Abd Wud. This is all documented in history. This isn’t a criticism of the great companions like Abu Dharr, etc. but everyone has their capacity. Ali AS was proven to exceed everyone else’s capacity for bravery. Neither a Shia nor Sunni can deny this.

Edited March 8 by 145_turbo_16V

[Qadri_01]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:18 AM, 145_turbo_16V said:

But that is according to some historical accounts. At Uhud according to some sources only  3 remained, Abu Dujana, Suhail. And Ali. Ibn Masud refuted this and said even Abu Dujana and Suhail fled but came back, some sahaba did come back. Sahaba have great status, they sacrificed for Islam and nobody can deny that. But they are not ma’sum and their bravery cannot match Ali’s. Even during khandaq, nobody would stand up against Amr bin Abd Wud. This is all documented in history. This isn’t a criticism of the great companions like Abu Dharr, etc. but everyone has their capacity. Ali AS was proven to exceed everyone else’s capacity for bravery. Neither a Shia nor Sunni can deny this.

First of all, the reports that only ali was there to protect rasulullah are in shi'i books. And secondly, no one is denying the bravery of ali. The point is shia criticise and make fun of sahaba who fled from battlefied. But they won't mock the companions whom they respect who are also included among those who fled away.

[Qadri_01]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The baseless assumptions cannot be accepted unless there is some true evidence for your false conjectures. and the evidence is missing.

 

Refute his whole post. You can't even quote his whole post since it is too clear to be refuted.

[Qadri_01]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

For the First group Quran Praising the companions  the following verses can be quoted:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that he has promised for those as given below:

“Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

Not all of them has been promised only those who believe and do righteous deeds among them"  

thus categorization is well proven.

 

These are the companions who are believers and forgiveness and great reward (paradise) has been promised from them. The above verse indicates that this promise is only for the believers doing the righteous deeds and it excludes those who do not perform the righteous deeds.

 

This verse includes all the sahabah. This verse is likethe verse quran 5:73.

[sunnism]

On 3/8/2024 at 10:47 PM, Muslim2010 said:

For the First group Quran Praising the companions  the following verses can be quoted:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that he has promised for those as given below:

“Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

Not all of them has been promised only those who believe and do righteous deeds among them"  

thus categorization is well proven.

 

These are the companions who are believers and forgiveness and great reward (paradise) has been promised from them. The above verse indicates that this promise is only for the believers doing the righteous deeds and it excludes those who do not perform the righteous deeds.

 

This verse is for all the sahaba. This verse is like the verse. 

The verse is exactly like the verse 5:73

 

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَـٰثَةٍۢ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـٰهٍ إِلَّآ إِلَـٰهٌۭ وَٰحِدٌۭ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا۟ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ ٧٣

Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment.

Here 'min' will be interpreted as all of them. The verse doesn't mean that there are there were believers and disbelievers among those who believe in trinity. Because at the start of the ayah, allah declared that whoever believed in trinity had commited kufr. Similarly in the verse of suraj fath, allah praised all the sahabah at the start, thus the 'min' in the last part of verse will be interpreted as 'all of them'

[sunnism]

On 3/8/2024 at 10:43 PM, 145_turbo_16V said:

According to some sources in Uhud, ALL companions ran except for Ali AS. Even Abu Dujana and Suhail. But many came back. Even in Hunanin, this was an issue since Hunain was in a narrow valley. We don’t know exactly if the companions fled for their lives or just tried to regroup or retreating a bit.

That is according to shia reports. According to sunni reports they were Abu bakr, umar, ali, talha, zubayr, sad bin abi waapas, abu ubaydah bin jarrah, abdur rahman bin auf, miqdad, sahl bin hunayf, abu dujana, harith bin sama'a, asim bin thabit, abu talha ansari and some more. 

 

On 3/8/2024 at 10:43 PM, 145_turbo_16V said:

Praising doesn’t mean a guarantee.You’re saying that once someone is praised they are saved. That’s not true

They were not just merely praised. Allah said muhajiroon wal ansar were forgiven, sadiqoon and muflihun, true believers, will be forgiven and given noble provision, allah said about people of tree that he is pleased with them, allah said about rest of sahabah that he praised them in torah and injeel. These are not ordinary praises. 

 

On 3/8/2024 at 10:43 PM, 145_turbo_16V said:

Ammar, Abu Dharr will have to stand before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) just like anyone else. We do not know where they will end up.

According to your authentic narrations if someone has to ask something, he should use their names as a waseela, and allah have made the earth for them. 

Edited March 13 by sunnism