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In the Name of God بسم الله

Suicide, Self-Sacrifice, Dr. Jack Kevorkian, Aaron Bushnell and Islam

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Also, if suicide is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever etc. etc. allowed under any circumstance then why did Allah reveal this verse to Bani Israel? He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) instructed them to repent and then kill themselves...there's a clear contraction between the popular stance of Shi'a laypeople and what Allah's Kalam says...وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِۦ يَـٰقَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِٱتِّخَاذِكُمُ ٱلْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوٓا۟ إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَٱقْتُلُوٓا۟ أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌۭ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ هُوَ ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ ٥٤

"And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves [i.e., the guilty among you]. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of Repentance, the Merciful." 2:54

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4 hours ago, kadhim said:

Even for soldier vs soldier, it gets problematic when it’s getting into guerilla tactics, sneaking up to do it in civilian clothes. In that case, the problem is it blurs the lines between military and civilian, and makes the other guy paranoid and increase the chances civilians get hurt if someone is twitchy on the trigger and gets the wrong signals from somebody’s behavior. When your tactics get more bystanders killed, it becomes problematic

There goes the 'Hamas' fault' again. 

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7 hours ago, realizm said:

There goes the 'Hamas' fault' again. 

I don’t see the name “pork butt” in there anywhere. You feeling alright, man? 

Look. We’re not talking about that here, so please try to deal. I don’t know why you derps feel driven to try to wedge that topic into everything else. It’s becoming an obsession. 

Prayers for your mental health, akhi

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8 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Also, if suicide is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever etc. etc. allowed under any circumstance then why did Allah reveal this verse to Bani Israel? He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) instructed them to repent and then kill themselves...there's a clear contraction between the popular stance of Shi'a laypeople and what Allah's Kalam says...وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِۦ يَـٰقَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِٱتِّخَاذِكُمُ ٱلْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوٓا۟ إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَٱقْتُلُوٓا۟ أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌۭ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ هُوَ ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ ٥٤

"And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves [i.e., the guilty among you]. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of Repentance, the Merciful." 2:54

Stretching. 

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2 hours ago, kadhim said:

I don’t see the name “pork butt” in there anywhere. You feeling alright, man? 

Your jokes are probably smart and witty but as a non native english speaker, I do not get these, sorry.  

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Look. We’re not talking about that here, so please try to deal. I don’t know why you derps feel driven to try to wedge that topic into everything else. It’s becoming an obsession. 

You got some nerves brother. You were the one pointing how fighters should act not to make IDF paranoid and want to shoot civilians.

It is not like I am bullying you on every thread, I am just responding to your obsessional posts on that matter. 

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Prayers for your mental health, akhi

Condescendent as it gets. 

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2 hours ago, realizm said:

You got some nerves brother. You were the one pointing how fighters should act not to make IDF paranoid and want to shoot civilians.

Neither “Ham-a**” nor the “IDF” were mentioned in the post on this thread. 

So why are you trying to inject it into the conversation?

Edited by kadhim
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Also, if suicide is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever etc. etc. allowed under any circumstance then why did Allah reveal this verse to Bani Israel? He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) instructed them to repent and then kill themselves...there's a clear contraction between the popular stance of Shi'a laypeople and what Allah's Kalam says...وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِۦ يَـٰقَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُم بِٱتِّخَاذِكُمُ ٱلْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُوٓا۟ إِلَىٰ بَارِئِكُمْ فَٱقْتُلُوٓا۟ أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌۭ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ هُوَ ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ ٥٤

"And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "O my people, indeed you have wronged yourselves by your taking of the calf [for worship]. So repent to your Creator and kill yourselves [i.e., the guilty among you]. That is best for [all of] you in the sight of your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance; indeed, He is the Accepting of Repentance, the Merciful." 2:54

This was revelation from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so it was Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) telling them to do this, not Moses((عليه السلام)). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has absolute right and sovereignty over all of creation, including human beings, which are part of this creation. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not bound by Sharia, we human beings are. 

When I read the verse,I am thinking, and this is just my opinion so feel free to discard it if you like. 

 Bani Israel cooperated with each other to do the greatest of sins, i.e. Shirk. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was trying to show them and all those who come after them that this is a great, great sin and so the punishment for this is very severe. The point was not to have them kill themselves, but to deter future generations from doing this. The sin was made even greater than this because these were the same people who had just witnessed with their own eyes all the miracles that Moses((عليه السلام).) performed, the staff turning into a snake, the plagues, the parting of the sea, etc. It was only a short time after that when they disbelieved in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by worshiping the calf, AFTER SEEING ALL OF THAT WITH THEIR OWN EYES. So you can imagine how wicked those people were. This was the punishment for what they did. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Neither “Ham-a**” nor the “IDF” were mentioned in the post on this thread. 

So why are you trying to inject it into the conversation?

Yet strangely, in a discussion about Palestine you came up with this off topic sentence 

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Even for soldier vs soldier, it gets problematic when it’s getting into guerilla tactics, sneaking up to do it in civilian clothes. In that case, the problem is it blurs the lines between military and civilian, and makes the other guy paranoid and increase the chances civilians get hurt

And now, acting like you were not making a parallel with Palestine. 

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13 minutes ago, realizm said:

Yet strangely, in a discussion about Palestine you came up with this off topic sentence 

???

It’s objectively not a discussion about Palestine specifically, though.

It’s a discussion about suicide in Islamic law in general. 

Right, @Eddie Mecca?

Edited by kadhim
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1 minute ago, kadhim said:

???

It’s objectively not a discussion about Palestine, though.

It’s a discussion about suicide in Islamic law in general. 

Right, @Eddie Mecca?

That's a fair remark. But strangely you just felt the need to drag the topic of guerilla warfare into a discussion about suicide. 

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53 minutes ago, realizm said:

That's a fair remark. But strangely you just felt the need to drag the topic of guerilla warfare into a discussion about suicide. 

???

It’s a discussion about suicide.

The discussion covers several scenarios.

One of them is war.

Suicide attacks are a prime example of suicide in war. The other is that of a mortally wounded person taking himself out. (Someone brought that up too)

Guerilla combat is one form of war where this happens. 

You following the tread now?

If this makes you think specifically of Palestinian terror tactics, okay, but that’s just your mind working. I’m not really responsible if I say A and you free associate to think of B. 

 

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56 minutes ago, kadhim said:

???

It’s a discussion about suicide.

The discussion covers several scenarios.

One of them is war.

Suicide attacks are a prime example of suicide in war. The other is that of a mortally wounded person taking himself out. (Someone brought that up too)

Guerilla combat is one form of war where this happens. 

You following the tread now?

If this makes you think specifically of Palestinian terror tactics, okay, but that’s just your mind working. I’m not really responsible if I say A and you free associate to think of B. 

 

First, 'suicide' attacks were popularized by the Japanese in WWII, the Kamakazi pilots who attacked American ships by crashing their planes into them. There were other instances before this in history but this is what popularized the term. They were not invented by Hamas or any other Muslim group. 

Second the point is irrelevant now because we have UAVs ie drones that can accomplish the same thing without the 'suicide' part 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kadhim said:

I’m not really responsible if I say A and you free associate to think of B. 

 

Well, yes you are.

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

You following the tread now?

No, I am not.

I do get the part where you mention fighters -some of them being kamikaze and thus fitting in the discussion about suicide. That would be A

But my poor brain has a hard time understanding what the 'those fighters hiding amongst civilians cause collateral casualties because soldiers freak out and shoot at random people' part has to do with the topic of suicide. That's B

Edited by realizm
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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Well, yes you are.

No, I am not.

I do get the part where you mention fighters -some of them being kamikaze and thus fitting in the discussion about suicide. That would be A

But my poor brain has a hard time understanding what the 'those fighters hiding amongst civilians cause collateral casualties because soldiers freak out and shoot at random people' part has to do with the topic of suicide. That's B

“Guerrillas using civilian clothes to do suicide bombing” is not a specifically Ham-a** or Palestinian thing. I’m not talking about Palestine. Can we drop it please?

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I'm not willing to comment on suicide as a means of protest. However, people who are mentally ill are not judged according to the same criteria as people who are mentally well. That would be unjust, and Allah is perfect in justice.

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17 hours ago, kadhim said:

“Guerrillas using civilian clothes to do suicide bombing” is not a specifically Ham-a** or Palestinian thing. I’m not talking about Palestine. Can we drop it please?

"Soldiers freaking out and killing random people out of a human survival instinct" just had nothing to do in the discussion. You should have dropped it in the first place rather than going into insinuations. 

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@Abu Nur, @Abu Hadi Also, I'm not resorting to cannibalism if I'm flying on a plane and it crashes in the Himalayas...I'm throwing myself from the mountain...would you two kill me and make shish kebab out of me in this scenario? Maybe if my fellow passengers were already dead on impact I might eat the remains of the deceased to sustain myself...but I wouldn't kill alive people for nourishment God-willing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cannibalism-andes-plane-crash-1972-survivors-terrible-decision-stay-alive-a6895781.html

 

Cannibalism: Survivor of the 1972 Andes plane crash describes the 'terrible' decision he had to make to stay alive

'I will never forget that first incision nine days after the crash'

 

Four young men — freezing cold, starving and struggling to survive following a plane crash — stood over their dead friend, armed with razor blades and broken glass.

They cut their friend’s clothes.

Then, his body.

 

“I will never forget that first incision nine days after the crash,” Roberto Canessa recalls in his new book, “I Had to Survive.”

“We laid the thin strips of frozen flesh aside on a piece of sheet metal,” he writes, according to an adaptation in the Daily Mail. “Each of us finally consumed our piece when we could bear to.”

 

Surrounded by death following a 1972 Andes plane crash, the four men made the decision to live.

“Each of us came to our own decision in our own time,” Canessa writes. “And once we had done so, it was irreversible.

“It was our final goodbye to innocence.”

It was Friday the 13th of October in 1972 when an Uruguayan aircraft carrying the Old Christians rugby team and their friends and family went down in the mountains in Argentina, near the border with Chile.

After two months, 16 survivors were rescued and became the inspiration for numerous documentaries, movies and books — most notably the 1993 film “Alive,” which was based on a book by the same name.

Canessa was a 19-year-old medical student and rugby player at the time of the crash.

In his new book, which will be published March 1, he remembers haunting moments.

The one when the plane began to plummet and he held onto his seat with such strength that “I tore off chunks of fabric with my bare hands.” The one when an avalanche buried him, and his friend started “frantically digging handfuls of snow away from my mouth.” And the one when they heard over their transistor radio that the search for them had ended.

 

But, it seems, the descent into cannibalism was the hardest to endure.

In the Daily Mail adaptation, Canessa writes:

Our common goal was to survive — but what we lacked was food. We had long since run out of the meagre pickings we’d found on the plane, and there was no vegetation or animal life to be found. After just a few days we were feeling the sensation of our own bodies consuming themselves just to remain alive. Before long we would become too weak to recover from starvation.

We knew the answer, but it was too terrible to contemplate.

The bodies of our friends and team-mates, preserved outside in the snow and ice, contained vital, life-giving protein that could help us survive. But could we do it?

 

For a long time we agonised. I went out in the snow and prayed to God for guidance. Without His consent, I felt I would be violating the memory of my friends; that I would be stealing their souls.

We wondered whether we were going mad even to contemplate such a thing. Had we turned into brute savages? Or was this the only sane thing to do? Truly, we were pushing the limits of our fear.

 

Of the 45 passengers on the plane, 27 survived the crash.

Then, one night, which Canessa calls “the worst of my life,” an avalanche killed eight more.

“We had no food — even the frozen bodies we were relying on to stay alive had been swept away,” he writes, according to the Daily Mail. “Everyone was waiting for someone to do something. Or for no one to do anything and just let the end come.

“That’s when I steeled myself to do what needed to be done: to use one of the bodies of the newly dead.”

Canessa recalls that he had “already done things that I never in my darkest nightmares imagined I’d have to do” — and he knew he had to do them again.

“And so we took yet another step in the descent towards our ultimate indignity: to eat the body of the person lying next to us. Each of us would have to be stained with this blood if we were to keep the seed of life from withering.”

After a gut-wrenching 72 days on their own, the final 16 survivors were finally rescued on Dec. 23, 1972.

But Canessa said he agonized over what they had done and how others would feel about it.

He recently talked to People magazine about seeing his mother and father after he was saved.

“I told her, ‘Mother, we had to eat our dead friends,'” he told People, “and she said, ‘That’s okay, that’s okay, sweetie.’ ”

Canessa told his father that his main concern was how the victims’ families would react to the harsh reality.

“I said, ‘I don’t care,'” he told People, ‘”the only thing I want to do is go to the families of my friends who died and tell them what happened. I don’t expect them to understand but they should know what happened.’

“But thank God, people were very receptive and very supportive and they consider what we did something we had to do so everything went very smoothly.”

Canessa, now a pediatric cardiologist, said it was his family — and the determination to make it home to them — that gave him the strength to survive.

“In these kinds of situations,” he told People, “it’s not how you survive but why you survive.”

 

 

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On 3/5/2024 at 7:53 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

@Abu Nur, @Abu Hadi Also, I'm not resorting to cannibalism if I'm flying on a plane and it crashes in the Himalayas...I'm throwing myself from the mountain...would you two kill me and make shish kebab out of me in this scenario? Maybe if my fellow passengers were already dead on impact I might eat the remains of the deceased to sustain myself...but I wouldn't kill alive people for nourishment God-willing

I wonder have believers ever had these kind of events?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/3/2024 at 2:43 AM, notme said:

I'm not willing to comment on suicide as a means of protest. However, people who are mentally ill are not judged according to the same criteria as people who are mentally well. That would be unjust, and Allah is perfect in justice.

I would say the most extreme mental illness that they don't have any control over themselves. People with mental illness who come to Shiachat and ask if its halal to do suicide have at least control over themselves, making it possible to get better, so making suicide in such a case would be haram.

Edited by Abu Nur
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11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

People with mental illness who come to Shiachat and ask if its halal to do suicide have at least control over themselves, making it possible to get better, so making suicide in such a case would be haram.

Right,  suicide is haram.  

Some mentally ill people do not have control over their minds, and will be judged with that considered.  That does not give permission for any mentally ill person to commit suicide.  

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