Thoughts from a Former Sunni

[Guest Ilyas]

Salaam,

I was raised in a Sunni family however I now follow Shia Islam Alhamdulillah after lots of reading. I believe with all my heart that Imam Ali (alayhis Salaam) was the rightful successor to Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him and his Family). After reading about the injustices of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and especially muawiya and his accursed son yazid( May Allah curse them), nothing can bring me back to the Sunni view. 

I only have confusion with regards to certain things such as Zakat. I got confused when I read that Zakat is almost not applicable in today's age as it is only on about 8 or 9 very specific items like wheat, raisins, and barley. I agree with Khums and it makes sense but I always knew Zakat was a separate and integral pillar of Islam.

The subject of Riba was also something that confused me. While I was a Sunni, I knew that any dealing of interest is Haram. Period. It appears to be different according to the Marjas.

Another thing was the practice of saying 'Ya Ali Madad'. I know that in prayer we say "Asalaamu 'Alayka Ayyuhan Nabbiyu". It still feels more natural to me to call to Allah for help and even do tawassul saying, "Oh Allah, please help me by the intercession of Ali (alayhis Salaam)". That's what I learned from reading Qur'an, Nahjul Balagha, and Sahifa Sajjadiya. 

I had a bit of confusion on some subjects of taharah and najasah but I posted that under Jurisprudence section.

I would be very grateful if someone could answer my questions or provide me with links to books with the answers. 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Guest Ilyas said:

I only have confusion with regards to certain things such as Zakat. I got confused when I read that Zakat is almost not applicable in today's age as it is only on about 8 or 9 very specific items like wheat, raisins, and barley. I agree with Khums and it makes sense but I always knew Zakat was a separate and integral pillar of Islam.

 

Many Shia Scholars say Zakat is Wajib. 

There is Ikhtilaaf on this issue, no Ijma.

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Guest Ilyas said:

Salaam,

Another thing was the practice of saying 'Ya Ali Madad'. I know that in prayer we say "Asalaamu 'Alayka Ayyuhan Nabbiyu". It still feels more natural to me to call to Allah for help and even do tawassul saying, "Oh Allah, please help me by the intercession of Ali (alayhis Salaam)". That's what I learned from reading Qur'an, Nahjul Balagha, and Sahifa Sajjadiya. 

 

Walaykum Salaam,

You are spot on.

Dua is Ibadah, and Imam Muhammed al-Baqir said that Dua is among the best of Ibadah in al-Kafi , Volume 2 in an authentic narration.

Dua is your call to the one who controls all things. Once you have exhausted the material means, we then turn to Allah in Dua as the one who has control over every single factor and outcome, and seek the highest possible kind of divine help possible.

The Prophet saw and Imams of Ahlulbayt, in our own Shia books, have never, not even once, authentically asked us to make Dua to them. There is not even, among the tens of thousands of narrations, a single authentic one where any of them asked us to call out to them and make Dua directly to them for children, or sustenance or our needs.

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Guest Ilyas said:

Another thing was the practice of saying 'Ya Ali Madad'. I know that in prayer we say "Asalaamu 'Alayka Ayyuhan Nabbiyu". It still feels more natural to me to call to Allah for help and even do tawassul saying, "Oh Allah, please help me by the intercession of Ali (alayhis Salaam)". That's what I learned from reading Qur'an, Nahjul Balagha, and Sahifa Sajjadiya. 

 

 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  , Advise to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) : "Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can."

 Letter 31 Nahjul Balagah

http://www.nahjulbalagha.org/Nahjul-Balagha-Letters/nahjul-balagha-letter-31.html
 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has said: "Pleading before Allah for help is the key to success and the  input for one's well being. The best prayer is what comes out of  a clean chest and pious heart. In pleading before Allah for help  there is the means for salvation, in sincerity there is freedom and  when distress intensifies, Allah is the only One before Whom  one must implore for protection."  [al-Kafi]

 

"Amir al-Mu'minin, Ali ibn abu Talib (عليه السلام) has said, :'The most beloved of deeds before  Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, on earth is pleading  before Him for help and the best worship is chastity.' The Imam  said, 'Amir al-Mu'minin, Ali ibn abu Talib, recipient of divine  supreme covenant, was a very prayerful man.' [al-Kafi, Volume 2]

[In Gods Name]

Waseelah

"O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed."[5:35]

Imam Jaffer as Sadiq (عليه السلام) said has said: 'You must plead before Allah for help; you cannot seek  nearness to Allah by any means better than pleading before Him  for help. Do not leave your small needs without pleading before  Allah for help, just because they are small; both small and large  needs are in the hands of One and the same One.'"  [al-Kafi, Volume 2]

 

"Once a man came to the Holy Prophet and said, 'O Prophet of  Allah, debts and insinuation of the chest (mind) have overcome  me.' The Holy Prophet told him to say, 'I place my trust in  Allah, the Living, Who does not die, all praise belongs to Allah,  Who has not taken any companions, or children. Who has no  partner in His kingdom or supporter against defeat, and you  must say that Allah is greater than can be described. '   "The Imam said that he thereafter passed by the Holy Prophet  who asked him how was he doing. He replied, 'I continued  practicing what you had preached, O the Messenger of Allah,  Allah enabled me to pay my debts and removed the insinuation  from my chest.'"  [al-Kafi, Volume 2]

 

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Guest Ilyas said:

The subject of Riba was also something that confused me. While I was a Sunni, I knew that any dealing of interest is Haram. Period. It appears to be different according to the Marjas.

 

Riba is also Harram for us Shias. It is a MAJOR sin and not a joke.

However, there are different views about things like student loans and mortgages and a strict way on the intentions behind getting them and how to do so.

I would be extremely careful.

However there exists a difference of opinion even among Sunnis.

Edited February 27, 2024 by In Gods Name

[Guest Ilyas]

Thank you for your responses. I feel very strongly about the stance that Zakat must be paid because Khums is for Sayyids and Zakat will go to people who aren't Sayyids. Zakat is mentioned alongside prayer many times in the Qur'an to emphasize it's importance. The literal meaning is 'purify' as in purifying your wealth. I feel like Zakat is not something to be taken lightly. 

Riba in the Western world of today seems nearly unavoidable but I have read Hadith saying Riba is worse than Zina so I don't want to take chances. It will probably sound impractical to most but I would rather pay rent all my life than get a mortgage. For student loans, I am willing to work at entry level jobs and try to work my way up Insha Allah. About getting a car, I would maybe try to use the bus or a bike. This probably sounds like a terrible idea but I don't want to take the risk. 

In the Qur'an, I think I remember verses that mentioned something like how when there is a storm at sea, even disbelievers will call upon Allah the Most High to save them but when they are saved and arrive on land, they go back to their disbelief. I think that shows the natural Fitrah or instinct in mankind to call upon none other than Allah the Most High in their most desperate moments.

 

 

[layman]

2 hours ago, Guest Ilyas said:

Another thing was the practice of saying 'Ya Ali Madad'. I know that in prayer we say "Asalaamu 'Alayka Ayyuhan Nabbiyu". It still feels more natural to me to call to Allah for help and even do tawassul saying, "Oh Allah, please help me by the intercession of Ali (alayhis Salaam)".

Salamualaikum, 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) always grant you tawfeeq since you accepted the Wilayat of Amerul Mukminin Ali (عليه السلام).

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant the "Waliship" of a father to a family, there are certain unwritten authority and responsibility that the father has on the family.  For example, the virgin daughter has to get permission from the father before getting married.  A woman who getting married has to submit her nafs (during the aqad), to make it official the main Waliship has been transfer from her father to her husband. During the transfer, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Angels, all Prophets and Ahlulbayt are the witnesses. Therefore, a marriage must be celebrated and the blessings are so much and it go up the heaven.

Let alone the act to accept (with shahadat) the Wilayat of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). To accept the Waliship of Imams from Ahlulbayt, will bring blessings that is difficult to describe... the entire heaven will celebrate.

Comes with acceptance of Waliyat of Ahlulbayt, there exist unseen commitment and connection. This is how Ahlulbayt will bring us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ensure that we will be in siratul mustaqeem, through this unseen connection. This is how Allah"s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) giving authorization for Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to guide and take charge of our Nafs to the right path.  That is one of reasons we give salawat and salam to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) during our daily prayers.  They are with us when we pray or seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They never abandon us when we accepted their Wilayat, witnessed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all Angels.

When we say "Ya Allah!", it is the fastest and simplest way to express to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that He is Absolute Powerful, Merciful...with all the Greatest Holy Attributes to describe Him(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)... we cannot read it all.  So we express it by saying Ya Allah!.

When we says Ya Rasulullah ..is the fastest way to acknowledge all the holy Attributes of Prophethood.

When we Ya Ali or Ya Hussain ,is the the fastest way to acknowledge all the holy Attributes of Wilayat (approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

When we say salam to Rasulullah and Ahlulbayt, it is to acknowledge the closeness of relationship between our nafs and their Pure Nafs that we have to the them.  The same we we say salam to fellow muslims, we says salam to Prophets and Imams (عليه السلام). It is unseen relationship and to strengthen that relationship, we give salawat and salam to them.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) constantly strengthen the relationship with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), it is compulsory for us to do so.  The is action is sealed in Qur'an (33:56). We must constantly reinforce this unseen relationship.

If there is closeness between our Nafs with Pure Nafs of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), there well be communication.  During Ashura, when this communication is established, we cried because we feel how mazluum is Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).  We walk during Arbaen, and we express this relationship by saying "Labbaik Ya Hussain", eventhough Imam Hussain is no where to been seen physically, by he is there due to spiritually relationship, his Pure Nafs is very close to our nafs.

Intercession is to acknowledge that Waliship of Ahlulbayt is already established in our Nafs and our Walis will guide us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), including bring and support our "valid requests" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because their Pure Nafs are with us. 

Wallahualam 

Layman.

 

[Guest Taqwa Iman Taslim]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:22 PM, layman said:

Salamualaikum, 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) always grant you tawfeeq since you accepted the Wilayat of Amerul Mukminin Ali (عليه السلام).

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant the "Waliship" of a father to a family, there are certain unwritten authority and responsibility that the father has on the family.  For example, the virgin daughter has to get permission from the father before getting married.  A woman who getting married has to submit her nafs (during the aqad), to make it official the main Waliship has been transfer from her father to her husband. During the transfer, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Angels, all Prophets and Ahlulbayt are the witnesses. Therefore, a marriage must be celebrated and the blessings are so much and it go up the heaven.

Let alone the act to accept (with shahadat) the Wilayat of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). To accept the Waliship of Imams from Ahlulbayt, will bring blessings that is difficult to describe... the entire heaven will celebrate.

Comes with acceptance of Waliyat of Ahlulbayt, there exist unseen commitment and connection. This is how Ahlulbayt will bring us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ensure that we will be in siratul mustaqeem, through this unseen connection. This is how Allah"s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) giving authorization for Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) to guide and take charge of our Nafs to the right path.  That is one of reasons we give salawat and salam to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) during our daily prayers.  They are with us when we pray or seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They never abandon us when we accepted their Wilayat, witnessed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and all Angels.

When we say "Ya Allah!", it is the fastest and simplest way to express to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that He is Absolute Powerful, Merciful...with all the Greatest Holy Attributes to describe Him(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)... we cannot read it all.  So we express it by saying Ya Allah!.

When we says Ya Rasulullah ..is the fastest way to acknowledge all the holy Attributes of Prophethood.

When we Ya Ali or Ya Hussain ,is the the fastest way to acknowledge all the holy Attributes of Wilayat (approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)) to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

When we say salam to Rasulullah and Ahlulbayt, it is to acknowledge the closeness of relationship between our nafs and their Pure Nafs that we have to the them.  The same we we say salam to fellow muslims, we says salam to Prophets and Imams (عليه السلام). It is unseen relationship and to strengthen that relationship, we give salawat and salam to them.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) constantly strengthen the relationship with Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), it is compulsory for us to do so.  The is action is sealed in Qur'an (33:56). We must constantly reinforce this unseen relationship.

If there is closeness between our Nafs with Pure Nafs of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), there well be communication.  During Ashura, when this communication is established, we cried because we feel how mazluum is Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).  We walk during Arbaen, and we express this relationship by saying "Labbaik Ya Hussain", eventhough Imam Hussain is no where to been seen physically, by he is there due to spiritually relationship, his Pure Nafs is very close to our nafs.

Intercession is to acknowledge that Waliship of Ahlulbayt is already established in our Nafs and our Walis will guide us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), including bring and support our "valid requests" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because their Pure Nafs are with us. 

Wallahualam 

Layman.

This is the most beautiful post I've ever seen on shiachat. Thank you brother and always a pleasure reading your posts.

[145_turbo_16V]

As a former Sunni I also find some of the practice of calling to Ahlul Bayt and EXPECTING it to come from THEM very problematic. They have special positions and were using them to seek nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)’s. But I don’t believe the majority of Shias believe that Ahlul Bayt have special powers independent of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That would be shirk. On ziyarah trips, the alim I go with made it 100% clear that we are expecting everything from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that has to be absolutely clear.

Layman has put this  very beautifully.

The beliefs of special powers of Ahlul Bayt are also manifested by some poets who go beyond the limits reciting lines of poetry which gives Ahlul Bayt powers equal to Allah. This is absolutely shirk. You have to call a spade a spade, and these people do exist. They try to justify that this is purely emotional. We have to completely reject this corrupt beliefs. 

Some Sunnis also try to exaggerate this, calling people doing ziyarat grave worshippers which is also unacceptable. In fact in Madinah Al Munawarrah the mutaween are telling the zuwar (mostly Sunnis) of the Prophet’s grave that “qiblah is that direction” (pointing towards Makkkah) LOL! 

Among some of the Sunnis, it’s acceptable to perform tawassul or istigahatha. This can be justified by the hadith of Uthman ibn Hunaif and has been discussed on this forum many times before 

اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ وَأَتَوَجَّهُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّكَ مُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ، [يَا مُحَمَّدُ] إِنِّي تَوَجَّهْتُ بِكَ إِلَى رَبِّي فِي حَاجَتِي هَذِهِ لِتُقْضَى لِيَ، اللَّهُمَّ فَشَفِّعْهُ فِيَّ

As you can see this dua found in the hadith in Tirmidhi allows you to invoke Allah’s favor through Rasulullah SAW.

 

[In Gods Name]

7 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

As a former Sunni I also find some of the practice of calling to Ahlul Bayt and EXPECTING it to come from THEM very problematic. They have special positions and were using them to seek nearness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)’s. But I don’t believe the majority of Shias believe that Ahlul Bayt have special powers independent of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That would be shirk. On ziyarah trips, the alim I go with made it 100% clear that we are expecting everything from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that has to be absolutely clear.

 

Salam,

Even if you make Dua to GhairAllah, and ask Imam Ali for example, for a child and believe Allah gave Imam Ali powers to hear all supplicants and respond to the supplicant when he supplicates and makes Dua to Ali, you could still be in major difficulty doing this in the Akhirah.

Dua is Ibadah. The ultimate call for needs and help, is a major form of Ibadah that is solely meant to be for the creator in whose hands is our very destinies and is the only one who is best to judge how to deal with us, given it is only Allah who delegates Risq of all kinds, determines when we will die. 

Furthermore, it is also Iftirah upon Allah given there is no precedent, nor shred of reliable evidence both in the Quran and Sunnah to support such a practice.

It is a clear cut deviation , and Allah may well severely punish people who allow it, practice it, no matter how big of a scholar they are, and those who follow them in doing it.

Those Ziyarah trips, unfortunately, are full of some extreme deviations of Tawheed by many - not all people:

 

Edited March 12, 2024 by In Gods Name

[145_turbo_16V]

What is your opinion on the hadith of Uthman ibn  Hunayf? So many sunni scholars have discussed this.

The usual answer I get, and you can check the mahajjah website is a long list of why it shouldn't be done. My response is, if Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave a dua, and he never stipulated any extra conditions like "only do this dua when I'm alive" then it is absolutely NOT haram. The other strategy is to weaken it, that's the most typical approach.

 

Then there is a dua in a hadith, which according to Sheikh GF. Haddad, (has numerous chains which strengthen themselves) that's it is perfectly fine to call the "servants of Allah" for help. This is supported by NUMEROUS Ulama including, As-Suyuti, An-Nawawi, At-Tabarani, and so on.

This one below is the shortest dua

يَا عِبَادَ اللهِ أَغِيثُو

According to Sheikh Haddad it's mentioned in Mukhtasar Musnad Al-Bazzar with a hasan chain.

So I don't know why you say there is no shred of evidence to support calling upon others. You can also say "this is dhaif" or "we find these scholars to be Shia leaning" or "this opens the door to shirk" and khalas, your work is done. This is the most typical response.

 

Edited March 12, 2024 by 145_turbo_16V

[sunnism]

18 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

What is your opinion on the hadith of Uthman ibn  Hunayf? So many sunni scholars have discussed this.

The hadith of uthman bin hunayf is sahih. Wahabiyyah just do anything they can to fit that hadith according to their narrative

[In Gods Name]

13 hours ago, sunnism said:

The hadith of uthman bin hunayf is sahih. Wahabiyyah just do anything they can to fit that hadith according to their narrative

It is not Sahih to the Shia, who do not have a single hadith to support this sort of Dua.

It is also a Khabar al Wahid, and if this is an Aqeedah issue and not a Fiqh one, you can't use that.

[sunnism]

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

It is not Sahih to the Shia, who do not have a single hadith to support this sort of Dua.

It is also a Khabar al Wahid, and if this is an Aqeedah issue and not a Fiqh one, you can't use that.

We can't use that? Who are you to tell what sunnis should use and should not? First of all tawassul and istighasah is a fish issue not a creedal issue. Seeking help from servants of allah is establish in sunni hadith and vast majority of sunni scholars allowed it. Sunni scholars are agreed on the permissability of tawassul. 

And secondly hadith of uthman bin hunayf isn't a dua to the prophet. It is like when you said assalam u alayka ya radulullah in a poetic form. 

[In Gods Name]

3 hours ago, sunnism said:

We can't use that? Who are you to tell what sunnis should use and should not? First of all tawassul and istighasah is a fish issue not a creedal issue. Seeking help from servants of allah is establish in sunni hadith and vast majority of sunni scholars allowed it. Sunni scholars are agreed on the permissability of tawassul. 

And secondly hadith of uthman bin hunayf isn't a dua to the prophet. It is like when you said assalam u alayka ya radulullah in a poetic form. 

This is playing with fire brother. There is no Ijma among the ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah at all on this. 

Tawassul is not Istigatha, and there is a debate regarding whether it is an Aqeedah or Fiqh issue.

At minimum, making dua to GhairAllah has no precedent in the Sunnah, asking needs directly from servants of Allah or even the Prophet saw was not an act performed by the Sahaba. 

In fact, they even claim when they wanted rain they would go to the Prophet saw, and after his death who did they go to? Did the Sahaba directly seek their needs from him?

There is no way on Yawm -al-Qiyamah i will want to be taking the Aqeedah beliefs of the  Barelvi or the more Ghuluw among the Shia when the Quran and Sunnah are so clear on the issue.

<>

You have many Shia and Sunni scholars across sects outright calling making Dua to other than Allah as shirk, or highly likely shirk, or even a questionable risk of it being shirk.

Edited March 14, 2024 by In Gods Name

[sunnism]

17 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

This is playing with fire brother. There is no Ijma among the ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah at all on this. 

Tawassul is not Istigatha, and there is a debate regarding whether it is an Aqeedah or Fiqh issue.

At minimum, making dua to GhairAllah has no precedent in the Sunnah, asking needs directly from servants of Allah or even the Prophet saw was not an act performed by the Sahaba. 

In fact, they even claim when they wanted rain they would go to the Prophet saw, and after his death who did they go to? Did the Sahaba directly seek their needs from him?

There is no way on Yawm -al-Qiyamah i will want to be taking the Aqeedah beliefs of the  Barelvi or the more Ghuluw among the Shia when the Quran and Sunnah are so clear on the issue.

<>

You have many Shia and Sunni scholars across sects outright calling making Dua to other than Allah as shirk, or highly likely shirk, or even a questionable risk of it being shirk.

So? Still vast majority of ahlus sunnah permit istighasah. Dua and istighasah are two different things. And seeking help from servants of allah is established in the a report from musannaf and others. 

 

[In Gods Name]

39 minutes ago, sunnism said:

So? Still vast majority of ahlus sunnah permit istighasah. Dua and istighasah are two different things. And seeking help from servants of allah is established in the a report from musannaf and others. 

 

One report verses clear Quranic verses forbidding us to make Dua to GhairAllah

Can you provide me, a single instance in the noble Quran where anybody makes Istigatha to seek their needs from someone dead or not present, or even directly goes to seek Hajat to Prophets or those present?

Could you also dear brother, provide for me the explanation behind why they would ask someone else to pray for rain after the Prophet saw died. Why not go to his grave and directly ask him?

Dua is Ibadah. Istigatha directly to someone across the curtain of Ghayb for needs, health, wealth, children, protection is a call that should be only made to Allah. It is worship it is a form of worship.

You have come here and asked us to let go of our biases, sectarian affiliations. I also ask you - don't chain yourself with believing everything the Barelvis believe for example. I promise you, just how you say the majority of Shias if not all are on Batil, you might be wrong on this one issue, and it could be a serious issue.

Shirk is not something i would even want to risk. Especially for a practice that has next to no reliable evidence.

Deobandis, Salafis, and even a strong minority of Shias reject Istigatha. 

Edited March 14, 2024 by In Gods Name

[AbdusSibtayn]

38 minutes ago, sunnism said:

So? Still vast majority of ahlus sunnah permit istighasah. Dua and istighasah are two different things. And seeking help from servants of allah is established in the a report from musannaf and others. 

 

Although many Salafi- influenced scholars nowadays are denying this, claiming that this is an invention of the Shias and Sufis which they have inserted into mainstream Sunni teachings. 

But if I can recall correctly, classical Sunni scholars like Ibn Qudama and Taqi al-Din Subki have written books defending istighatha and pilgrimage to shrines of the Prophet (S) and awliya and asking their help inside their shrines.

Would like to know your opinion on this. 

[sunnism]

10 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

One report verses clear Quranic verses forbidding us to make Dua to GhairAllah

This 'versus' is when you believe that verse and hadith are contradicting. If you take the verses literally then you can't even seek help from even living people. 

 

12 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Can you provide me, a single instance in the noble Quran where anybody makes Istigatha to seek their needs from someone dead or not present, or even directly goes to seek Hajat to Prophets or those present

Doesn't need to. Proofs in islam are quran and sunnah. And s econdly, you are a shia. You will not tell ahlus sunnah as to to what to take and what to not take as proof. You are just a beginner who just memorized one usool that ahad hadith are not taken hujjah and apply it everywhere. Where do you get this principle from? You would say, that vast majority of scholars don't take ahad hadith in creed. Then the majority of scholars believe istighasah to be true as well, majority of your scholars believe that you won't believe. You just take whatever you want and whatever you don't want. 

As far as ahad hadith not taken into creed. Then by the same logic even mutawatir hadith can be rejected because it is possible that a liar met with many other liars and all of them agreed to fabricate a hadith and by doing this they make sure that they show themselves as being pious trustworthy narrators. Waqifites use to narrate 'mutawatir' narrations from imam jafar that imam kazim is the qaim. 

[sunnism]

17 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Although many Salafi- influenced scholars nowadays are denying this, claiming that this is an invention of the Shias and Sufis which they have inserted into mainstream Sunni teachings. 

But if I can recall correctly, classical Sunni scholars like Ibn Qudama and Taqi al-Din Subki have written books defending istighatha and pilgrimage to shrines of the Prophet (S) and awliya and asking their help inside their shrines.

Would like to know your opinion on this. 

Salafis are just one of a kind. They would insult others as being a sufi while they don't know that ibn taymiyyah was one of the proponents of tasawwuf and was a qadri sufi. 

As far as sunni scholars are concerned, they are agreed on tawassul, asking intercession from prophet. But they differ over istighasah. Many scholars such as aadhi abu yala, ibn aqeel, waliuddin iraqi prohibited istighasah. Majority of ahlus sunnah holds it to be permissable. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 3/12/2024 at 11:34 AM, 145_turbo_16V said:

But I don’t believe the majority of Shias believe that Ahlul Bayt have special powers independent of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That would be shirk.

That is the belief of the Mufawwidah par excellence. I also concur that this is shirk. 

[In Gods Name]

25 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

That is the belief of the Mufawwidah par excellence. I also concur that this is shirk. 

The Mufawwidah did not believe that the Ahlulbayt had powers independent of Allah.

They believed that Allah himself created the universe , and then gave the power to the Ahlulbayt to run and govern it - so they are not independent from Allah in terms of power.

It is the same as those today who believe that Imam Ali grants duas, delegates risq, and controls the entire universe by permission of Allah i.e. the absolute type of Wilayat Takqiniya which is repackaged Tafweed.

They have been cursed by the Imams in no uncertain terms. It is a dangerous belief to have.

Adding 'But they are not independent' does not save one from the fire. Allah can not be fooled around with by giving the Makhlooq attributes of his, and then claiming Allah did it himself. 

If Allah wanted, we could be worshipping cows which he has given power to control the entire universe, is that impossible for God? But would he? Would that make sense with Tawheed and the purpose of our creation and the very meaning of worshipping the true , one God?

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, sunnism said:

Salafis are just one of a kind. They would insult others as being a sufi while they don't know that ibn taymiyyah was one of the proponents of tasawwuf and was a qadri sufi. 

As far as sunni scholars are concerned, they are agreed on tawassul, asking intercession from prophet. But they differ over istighasah. Many scholars such as aadhi abu yala, ibn aqeel, waliuddin iraqi prohibited istighasah. Majority of ahlus sunnah holds it to be permissable. 

Please don't claim it is only the Salafiyya who reject Istigatha.

Deobandis reject it too.

and so do a strong minority of Shias.

Our Barelvi/Sufi brothers are badly misguided with their calling out to people like Jilani for their needs , health, and wealth.

It is clear cut batil, it is deviation, it has no mandate from the Quran and Sunnah, it is defended by an insane degree of mental and linguistic gymnastics.

It is not a Fiqh issue it is an Aqeedah issue, and not worth risking your entire Akhirah over something that isn't even part of Islam.

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, sunnism said:

But they differ over istighasah. Many scholars such as aadhi abu yala, ibn aqeel, waliuddin iraqi prohibited istighasah. Majority of ahlus sunnah holds it to be permissable.

Who are the Ahlus-Sunnah brother?

Do you count Salafis and Deobandis as Ahlus-Sunnah?

The majority of the Ummah today are against Istigatha to my calculation. 

And, who claimed the majority were always right?

It is clear cut batil and those performing it, if thrown into Hell may well wish double the punishment of the scholars their blindly emulated on an Aqeedah issue.

[sunnism]

38 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Who are the Ahlus-Sunnah brother?

Do you count Salafis and Deobandis as Ahlus-Sunnah

No. First of all salafis and deobandis are minority in this ummah. 

 

39 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

And, who claimed the majority were always right?

No one. It is a refutation of you who we should not take ahad narrations in creed because majority of scholars said it. And majority are correct here because there is an authentic narration which supports this. 

[sunnism]

43 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Please don't claim it is only the Salafiyya who reject Istigatha.

Deobandis reject it too

Where did I claim that only salafiyyah reject istighasah? I clearly said that some classical scholars among ahlus sunnah prohibit istighasah. 

 

44 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Our Barelvi/Sufi brothers are badly misguided with their calling out to people like Jilani for their needs , health, and wealth.

It is clear cut batil, it is deviation, it has no mandate from the Quran and Sunnah, it is defended by an insane degree of mental and linguistic gymnastics.

It is not a Fiqh issue it is an Aqeedah issue, and not worth risking your entire Akhirah over something that isn't even part of Islam.

Misguided according to who? According to your homemade standards. You were just shown a narration  in our sources but because you don't like it, it is 'clear cut batil'. And it is a fiqh issue. Surely for you, to seek help from others is equal to dua to them, no one is obliged to accept your homemade standards. 

[In Gods Name]

12 minutes ago, sunnism said:

Misguided according to who? According to your homemade standards. You were just shown a narration  in our sources but because you don't like it, it is 'clear cut batil'. And it is a fiqh issue. Surely for you, to seek help from others is equal to dua to them, no one is obliged to accept your homemade standards. 

It's an Aqeedah issue, not a Fiqh issue.

And a Khabr al-Wahid is not evidence Ya Akhi, especially when it contradicts other Saheeh hadith and the Quran.

You can't bring that as evidence in the court of Allah, one single, solitary, disputed on Hadith that itself might not be major proof.

It's not because i don't like it - it's because of every argument against it in the Quran and Sunnah.

<>

Let go of following groups and realise my dear brother, you will not be able to hide behind any scholar, any group on the day of judgement. The message is so clear.

Dua is Ibadah.

We should seek for ultimate help, and needs such as protection, wealth, children outside of the normal day to day means to only the creator of the universe, and not the creation. 

That is the meaning of Dua, to supplicate for what humans and mortals can't do, to the Divine, in whose hands is control of everything.

Calling out to al-Jilani for health, wealth, children and when in danger is completely against the Quran. He is in Barzakh, he himself is occupied with his own worries and he might have no idea so many of our Barelwi brothers and sisters in the Ahlus-Sunnah are making Dua to him.

Edited March 14, 2024 by In Gods Name

[sunnism]

14 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

It's an Aqeedah issue, not a Fiqh issue.

And a Khabr al-Wahid is not evidence Ya Akhi, especially when it contradicts other Saheeh hadith and the Quran.

You can't bring that as evidence in the court of Allah, one single, solitary, disputed on Hadith that itself might not be major proof.

It's not because i don't like it - it's because of every argument against it in the Quran and Sunnah.

<>

Let go of following groups and realise my dear brother, you will not be able to hide behind any scholar, any group on the day of judgement. The message is so clear.

Dua is Ibadah.

We should seek for ultimate help, and needs such as protection, wealth, children outside of the normal day to day means to only the creator of the universe, and not the creation. 

That is the meaning of Dua, to supplicate for what humans and mortals can't do, to the Divine, in whose hands is control of everything.

Calling out to al-Jilani for health, wealth, children and when in danger is completely against the Quran. He is in Barzakh, he himself is occupied with his own worries and he might have no idea so many of our Barelwi brothers and sisters in the Ahlus-Sunnah are making Dua to him.

Your points are debunked above. I don't need to repeat the same thing. You basically have nothing and just repeating the same point again again. And secondly, the report of seeking help from servants of allah isn't khabar wahid. It is narrated by ibn abbas, ibn masood and many others. So your points are still worthless. Now I can face allah by saying istighasah is proven in a narration which had supporting evidences

Edited March 14, 2024 by sunnism

[145_turbo_16V]

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

It's an Aqeedah issue, not a Fiqh issue.

Brother, Can you tell me which of our maraji (I'm assuming you are shia ithna ashari) oppose tawassul?

I'm not talking about people like Sheikh Hadi Gharawi, Kanpoori, etc who dispute the isnad of Dua of tawassul. I'm talking about which maraji completely oppose tawassul or istighatha. 

Also you posted a Sayyid Ammar Nakshawani video by the Al-Islah group (Kanpoori)

When I saw the video you posted of Ammar, I thought why would Ammar say that?

It's clear that Sayyid Ammar was warning against the ghulat who thinks the aimmah has the final say on rizq or even anything. He isn't saying it is haram. He is cautioning us on the boundaries. Even the Alim I go with on ziyarah always emphasizes this. 

I met his friend Sheikh Al-Hilli in Samarra recently and reviewed his video. His explanation was very clear on this issue as well. Do you disagree with Sheikh Al-Hilli's views as well?

Many of us lay person do not acknowledge any independence of the makhluq to the khaliq (we're not mushriks just because we're lay people). And even when you ask any one, there are boundaries. For those people who are misguided the answer is to guide them not to make tahrim of a practice allowed by the majority of scholars.

 

Also, I found this great hadith in Sahih Bukhari and enjoyed reading it. In Kitab Al-Mazalim. One part, Khalif Umar said:

فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ اسْتَغْفِرْ لِي‏.‏

I know some Muslims say, go directly to Allah, don't ask anyone. Then when you point several ahadith, they say, oh yeah but tawassul is ok, but Istighatha is shirk. 

[In Gods Name]

26 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

I'm not talking about people like Sheikh Hadi Gharawi, Kanpoori, etc who dispute the isnad of Dua of tawassul. I'm talking about which maraji completely oppose tawassul or istighatha. 

 

Of course.

Shaykh Qarawi has clearly said Dua belongs only to Allah. Yasser Awdah himself explicitly echoes this view and leans with Sayed Fadallah too.

Ayatollah Fadallalah, the student of Sayed Khoi, to whom Muhammed Saheed Baqir as Sadr said, when Ayatollah Fadallah left Najaf - "Everyone loses when they leave Najaf, but Najaf lost when they lost Sayed Fadallah".

Ayatollah Muhammed Hussain Najafi Dhakku of Pakistan - had a Risalah,etc

& Sayed Ammar says you should not directly ask them for your needs. His words are clear, it is better to ask Allah for their sake.

Edited March 14, 2024 by In Gods Name

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam related thread

 

[hadi313]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:26 PM, sunnism said:

Can you provide me, a single instance in the noble Quran where anybody makes Istigatha to seek their needs from someone dead or not present, or even directly goes to seek Hajat to Prophets or those present

In Chapter 12, when the brothers of Yousuf understood they had made a huge mistake, instead of asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to forgive them, they asked their father to seek forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for them and their father, the prophet of Allah, Yagub did not call them Mushirk or Kafir, and he approved this action by responding to them that I will seek forgiveness for you.

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

They said, ‘Father! Plead [with Allah] for forgiveness of our sins! We have indeed been erring. He said, ‘I shall plead with my Lord to forgive you; indeed He is the All-forgiving, the All-mercifu.[12:97,98]

There are Ayat and Rewayat that approve Tawassul to the prophets and Ahu al Bait (SA) but the problem here is that a Wahabbi mindset can't accept anything that is against their belief even if it is coming from the verses of the Quran or the sahih narrations of the prophet and Ahu al Bait (عليه السلام).