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In the Name of God بسم الله

Aaron Bushnell نَّا ِلِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ, ʾ

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29 minutes ago, realizm said:

No one asked you to praise his act, but to respect his intention, or least not tarnish it. 

His intention was - I am taking his own words - not to kill himself, but an extreme act of protest. 

He wasn't Muslim, we don't know his awareness of the Shariah. It may well be Allah, if he wills re-tests him or punishes him.

However what we do know is, despite the act being the wrong thing to do because his life was worth far more than a protest to the evil Zionists, how many of us, if Allah asked us to jump into a fire would jump?

I don't want to go too far into this because i must say, nobody should ever kill themselves or harm themselves, but, the man seems outwardly utterly sincere. 

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16 hours ago, realizm said:

The fact that انا لله وانا اليه راجعون is a universal phrase that mo'minin do pronounce in cases of trials, does not limit its initial meaning to the case of mo'minin.

Will you deny that this poor young man will meet his Lord one day ?

If it caused you a discomfort, then there is nothing wrong to utter انا لله وانا اليه راجعون.

Edited by Abu Nur
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I wrote a response to the man named abu nur , who happens to be the moderator as well I guess, but my reply never published , anyways , what you guys are doing here ,reminds me of what Sunni Muslims do when for example lebanese resistence attack " IDF " positions , and before they launch the attack they would say something like " Ya Zahra " sometimes , and these sunnis leave everything and focus on why this is a shirk , and so instead of focusing on supporting them , they start arguing about shirk and tawheed , ofc the zionists are always the beneficiary of this divison and back and forth debates. So long this logic exist , the nation will always be divided , we are stuck too much on ideals and we forgot how to be practical, maybe thats why u the evil is often dictating in the world , we believers have become too idealistic in a world that is far from it. 

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7 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

We all know what Islam stance is on burning one self , this man isnt a muslim so he doesnt know your Fiqh , we are not promoting this act when we praise his stance , its just an overall supportive action against the Zio genocide machine , you know btw what you guys are doing reminds me of how some Sunni Muslims would criticize Lebanese resistence when they attack " Israeli" positions , because they say sometimes ( ya zahraa ) and they turn the whole conversation into a shirk vs tawheed which in turn creates division and serves the zio agenda , how about we set aside the negative aspects and focus instead on whats positive and be practical ?!! 

I don't support any action that is mixed with wrongdoing. You can if you want to, and you can justify it as much you can, but mixing goodness with evilness is never justified, doesn't matter what people belief.

They who believe and do not mix their belief with wrongdoing - those will have security, and they are [rightly] guided. 6:82

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16 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

why not admire the man's zealousness, courage 

Publicly admiring Aaron Bushnell could possibly influence other young people to take a similar action. 

16 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

and sense of guilt and helplessness?!

He was a US soldier. He could have refused to do his job, been jailed for dereliction of duty, had reporters interview him, been court-martialed, eventually freed from military service, and maybe become a writer or speaker against injustice. Now we will never know. 

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2 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

He could have refused to do his job, been jailed for dereliction of duty,

Given what is at stake, he could also have had an unfortunate 'accident' and we'd never have heard about him at all. He appears to have taken some trouble to make it very clear that he is a serving member of the US armed forces and the link with his self-immolation.

Epstein did not kill himself.

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On 2/28/2024 at 1:27 AM, Hameedeh said:

Publicly admiring Aaron Bushnell could possibly influence other young people to take a similar action.

You mean the way that J.F. Kennedy publicly admired the Buddhist priest who set himself on fire in South Vietnam?

Quote

The photograph above of a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist monk burning himself to death is a famous photograph taken by Malcolm Browne on 11 June, 1963. The monk’s name was Quang Duc and his self-immolation was done in protest to the South Vietnamese Roman Catholic government led by Ngo Dinh Diem, for the persecutions of Buddhists in the Country.

The U.S. President John F. Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) said in reference to the photograph: “No news picture in history has generated so much emotion around the world as that one.”

https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/the-photograph-that-generated-so-much-emotion-around-the-world-f03c4c9bffeb

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't support any action that is mixed with wrongdoing. You can if you want to, and you can justify it as much you can, but mixing goodness with evilness is never justified, doesn't matter what people belief.

They who believe and do not mix their belief with wrongdoing - those will have security, and they are [rightly] guided. 6:82

He is not a Mslim, so I am not gonna hold him to the same standard as a Muslim , or as someone who knows the Quran , not everyone is a Muslim or a Shia Muslim , dont forget that . 

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11 hours ago, realizm said:

No one asked you to praise his act, but to respect his intention, or least not tarnish it. 

His intention was - I am taking his own words - not to kill himself, but an extreme act of protest. 

We respect his intention, but we must do 'Amr bil Maroof wa Nahyia Al Munkhar'. The 'Maroof' and the 'Munkhar' is decided by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not by us. Everyone has their own perspective and their own preference about what is 'Maroof' and what is 'Munkhar' and that is why it is necessary, as muslim, to defer our own preferences for these to what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) prefers. That is what it means to be a muslim(a). At the same time, we should not judge others action in their totality or judge them as a person, unless it is an extreme case (this is not an extreme case, btw). That is up to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Let me give you an example of what I mean

Let me give you an example and also a disclaimer. I am not advocating for anyone to actually do this, as it would be haram and any haram act carries bad consequences with it. So here is the example. 

Let's say a young attractive muslima wanted to draw attention to the issue of the genocide going on in Palestine. She has gone to protests, posted online, etc, etc, with very little result and noone is paying attention to her content besides a few people who already agree with her. So she gets this idea, and her intention is to bring attention to the issue and not to herself. So say she decides to walk back and forth in front of the Israeli Embassy in Washington naked except for her khimar(head scarf) and carry a sign that says 'Free Palestine' or with a picture of a dead baby or some other content. Now she will definitely get attention and plenty of news coverage, so that goal is accomplished and she can check that box. At the same time, should we just say 'Bravo to her, she is bringing attention to the issue and she is protesting' without mentioning the fact that this act that she is doing is actually haram and could be considered 'fasad fil ard' (spreading corruption on earth) since she is doing this knowing full well that her naked image will be broadcast widely and will be seen by millions ? Her intention is good, but the way she carried it out is wrong and may end up causing more harm, whether to herself or others, than good. So this is the point. 

I am not trying to use this example to make anyone upset, and I hope I didn't offend anyone by it. I was using it because this is an example I think most people can understand and they can see the pure intention part of it and the haram part of it. Some example are not that clear. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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What disgusts me is the zionists who pretend to care about him and guilt trip their opposition by saying "you pushed this propaganda about genocide" whilst at the same time calling him an enemy and making a mockery of him. Absolute scum of the earth, these people have zero empathy, especially this hideous satanic witch who insulted him and dragged his name to the mud, I'm sure you all saw her tweet.

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On 2/26/2024 at 6:45 PM, SoRoUsH said:

The Islamic verdict on suicide or self-harm is clear. We all know it. 

The question is, why do we have a hard time with this case? 

I think this is the question that we should ponder upon, and it helps us stay away from making judgments upon others. 

It also helps us to better understand the experience of cognitive bias within ourselves, so we could sharpen our own senses of when we are influenced and affected by cognitive biases. 

@Abu Nur This is an issue I see with both of you here, no one here is supporting suicide, we all know suicide is haram and people who do it most likely burn in jahannam, which I keep asking myself personally if he will burn in jahannam. I doubt anyone here is encouraging suicide by self immolation for the sake of palestine. 

You can still have sympathy, he was misguided and did what he thought was right, it was stupid, he probably thought he was going to survive but still reckless. Doesn't mean anyone who has sympathy and is sharing an image of what he did is automatically supporting him. 99% of people on the internet aren't even calling for people to burn themselves, almost everyone sees this as unfortunate.

 

So I really have no idea why you guys are making it as if somehow were supporting it and encouraging people to do it? You can litterally specify it's a bad thing to do whilst also having sympathy. 

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7 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

He was a US soldier. He could have refused to do his job, been jailed for dereliction of duty, had reporters interview him, been court-martialed, eventually freed from military service, and maybe become a writer or speaker against injustice. Now we will never know. 

Do you really think they'd let him speak about injustice freely?? Yeah no, this wont happen. Just think about what happened to Julien Assange when he decided to do that. 

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We cannot support or praise or sympathize with an action that is forbidden, if we want Allah to support our cause. 

If the liberation of Palestine is an Islamic cause, and if we need Allah's support, then we need to respect and adhere to the guidelines that Allah has sent us in order to obtain victory. We can't do whatever we want and expect Allah to help us. 

So, when you think of Palestine's liberation, ask yourself, is this an Islamic cause or is it a nationalist cause? Is this what we as Muslims want, or is this a pan-Arab liberation movement? 

If you connect it in any way to Islam, then you ought to adhere to Islamic guidelines in your struggle.

Edited by SoRoUsH
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Allah yerhamo poor thing, they say that if someone dies in fire or drowning or any painful death Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would forgive all of his/her sins grant him/her jannah and they'd be considered a sheheed (martyr) but again in his case i'm not sure what are the rulings, but i know for sure that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is most merciful and no one with atom's weight of faith in their heart will be punished. Also Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows how much this guy was hurt over the oppression that was happening in Gaza. 
 

Allah knows best. 
 

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Can anyone tell me if we know for sure Allah won't re-test him on the day of judgement or in some other way? Does anyone have narrations for or against?

It just doesn't make sense for someone to have this much will power to give it all up and endure this much pain, and not for his own sake at least outwardly.

I condemn suicide but nobody can say for sure in every case, especially in a non-Muslim who we don't know the ins and outs, what Allah will judge.

All i say is, may Allah curse the Zionists and their enablers.

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Sayyiduna Abu Hurayrah (radiyallahu ‘anhu) would ask the people ‘Tell me of a person who entered Jannah without offering a single Salah’?

Who was this Sahabi?

Answer

This Sahabi was Sayyiduna ‘Amr ibn Thabit ibn Wuqaysh/Uqaysh Al Ash-hali. His title was ‘Usayrim’.

This Sahabi had accepted Islam when the battle of Uhud had begun and was martyred. When Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) was made aware of this, he remarked ‘Indeed he is from the inhabitants of Jannah’.

ONLY Allah knows if Bushnell died a Muslim -all be it an ill informed one- or not. He sacrificed himself after having access to 'sensitive' intel on the genocide and to stop his involvement in it, thus preventing further harm to innocent Palestinians coming from him...

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When we say Imam Hussain sacrifice was beneficial to the nation of Islam, since it helped preserve religion, does that mean that its good that Yazid killed Imam Hussain? that what Yazid did was good then ? If we say No , but aside from the atrocity he did , the fruit of the action which is the sacrifice of the Imam as consequence was beneficial to the survival of Islam. So here we see that we can consider an action bad from one side, but consider the result of it as good from another side, so we can look at it from each side, why not in this case consider the burning of one self as something bad, but instead of focusing on that we focus on the result , which is ultimately positive for supporting the cause of Palestine and bringing more attention to it. Looking at this and focusing on the act it self and the self burning only, is only beneficial to the zios. 

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Imam Hussein's sacrifice was not suicide and this is a big misconception amoung some people.

Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) knew he would die in Karbala but he didn't know when. So he could have died 50 years after that battle but in Karbala.

He(عليه السلام) went there to accept the offer of those in Kufa who pledged to join his army in order to fight Yazid(la), the illegitimate ruler. He didn't know that he would be betrayed by those Muslims of low character. Given those facts there is no way any fair person could compare this with what Aaron Bushnell did and as someone who strives to follow the example of Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) though I am very far from doing that this statement or this comparison is highly offensive to me and its factually incorrect. If he went there to kill himself then why did he bring his armour, shield, and sword and all his male companions did the same thing. Why did they fight the enemy till the last drop of their energy if that is what they came to do ?

Edited by Abu Hadi
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11 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Imam Hussein's sacrifice was not suicide and this is a big misconception amoung some people.

Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) knew he would die in Karbala but he didn't know when. So he could have died 50 years after that battle but in Karbala.

He(عليه السلام) went there to accept the offer of those in Kufa who pledged to join his army in order to fight Yazid(la), the illegitimate ruler. He didn't know that he would be betrayed by those Muslims of low character. Given those facts there is no way any fair person could compare this with what Aaron Bushnell did and as someone who strives to follow the example of Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) though I am very far from doing that this statement or this comparison is highly offensive to me 

This is such a good point Barakallahu feek.

There has been in recent centuries, a resurgence of the Ghulat elements among the Shias. They have destroyed the role model aspect of our Prophet saw and his Ahlulbayt asws, but claiming they knew the exact moment they'd die, that they chose when to die, that they knew literally all of the past and the future. This is a lie on the Prophet saw and the Ahlulbayt asws.

Rather, Imam al-Hussain when he was fighting, was actually trying to win. He wasn't just putting on a show. He was trying his best to get to Kufa. Maybe he would get to Kufa and die while on the return journey? Allahu'alam. Maybe he would die in another battle in Kerbala? He had no idea of when , how, or the exact details.

He actually believed he could rely on the Kufans, despite being warned by many not to trust them. 

Isn't it more beautiful? Rather than a demi-God, an actual human being and among the best of humanity, using human faculties rather than an all powerful , all knowing demi-God?

It took me so long to even feel sorry for Imam al-Hussain asws and even appreciate the tragedy of Kerbala until i was able to recognise the true historical Imam Hussain as, and the absolute Ghulati, demi-God, Roman-Zeus type figure he unfortunately has been turned to in some Malang/Ghulati corners.

<>

I will say though, it might take one more generation to start seeing a bit of a demise of the Ghulat-type tendencies among us, and by the end of the 21st century, they will look back in utter shock at Shias today and in the last century. 

If you are reading this in 2100 and above, know that we're trying. 

Edited by In Gods Name
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47 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Imam Hussein's sacrifice was not suicide and this is a big misconception amoung some people.

Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) knew he would die in Karbala but he didn't know when. So he could have died 50 years after that battle but in Karbala.

He(عليه السلام) went there to accept the offer of those in Kufa who pledged to join his army in order to fight Yazid(la), the illegitimate ruler. He didn't know that he would be betrayed by those Muslims of low character. Given those facts there is no way any fair person could compare this with what Aaron Bushnell did and as someone who strives to follow the example of Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) though I am very far from doing that this statement or this comparison is highly offensive to me and its factually incorrect. If he went there to kill himself then why did he bring his armour, shield, and sword and all his male companions did the same thing. Why did they fight the enemy till the last drop of their energy if that is what they came to do ?

I didn't say Imam Hussain action was suicide, I am only giving an example of how we can look at certain action such as the killing of Imam Hussain AS which is قبيح  , but we also look at what it lead to in terms of preserving Islam and from that aspect, its considered a sacrifice that is حسنه because it had good consequences for Islam, ofc this man burning himself is not acceptable by Islam Sharia , but we praise the action in terms of the positive consequences that can come from it.  BTW your reasoning for defending the idea of imam Hussain action not being suicidal is weak , at some point Imam Hussain definitely knew he was not going to make it , and he even offered them to leave at night if they are too shy of being sighted while leaving. 

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2 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

BTW your reasoning for defending the idea of imam Hussain action not being suicidal is weak , at some point Imam Hussain definitely knew he was not going to make it , and he even offered them to leave at night if they are too shy of being sighted while leaving. 

The simple fact is that Yazid wanted Imam Hussains (عليه السلام) allegiance as soon as he (Yazid) took over the caliphate after his father's death. In fact Muawiyah had written a letter instructing Yazid to do so. His army was prepared to attack Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) if that's what it took, regardless of whether he would be in Medina, Makkah or any other place. This idea that he (عليه السلام) simply headed off to Karbala so he could get killed is actually flawed and inaccurate. 

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5 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

I didn't say Imam Hussain action was suicide, I am only giving an example of how we can look at certain action such as the killing of Imam Hussain AS which is قبيح  , but we also look at what it lead to in terms of preserving Islam and from that aspect, its considered a sacrifice that is حسنه because it had good consequences for Islam, ofc this man burning himself is not acceptable by Islam Sharia , but we praise the action in terms of the positive consequences that can come from it.  BTW your reasoning for defending the idea of imam Hussain action not being suicidal is weak , at some point Imam Hussain definitely knew he was not going to make it , and he even offered them to leave at night if they are too shy of being sighted while leaving. 

No. He didn't know. The people of Kufa or others could have marched over the hills and joined the battle at any moment even up to the moment Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) was killed. Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) and all the Imams were always optimistic that the people whom they were preaching to would change and do the right things. Sometimes it happened and sometimes it didn't but they were always hopeful. So I believe like @Abu_Zahra said your analysis is incorrect. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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25 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

No. He didn't know. The people if Kufa or others could have marched over the hills and joined the battle at any moment even up to the moment Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) was killed. Imam Hussein(عليه السلام) and all the Imams were always optimistic that the people whom they were preaching to would change and do the right things. Sometimes it happened and sometimes it didn't but they were always hopeful. So I believe like @Abu_Zahra said your analysis is incorrect. 

Just to be clear, I dont think the Imam went to commit suicide, that being said  , when we say the Imam knows or doesnt know, we are not aware of what is within Imam Hussain being , so we must use indicators to make a conclusion, first of all , the prophet talked about Karbala and was crying about Imam Hussain , there are hadiths that talk about Karballa, secondly, if you read the speech Imam Hussain gave before he departed to Karbala , its a speech of someone who is certain of his death , this is part of the speech و خير لي مصرع أنا لاقيه كأني بأوصالي يتقطعها عسلان الفلوات بين النواويس و كربلاء فيملأن مني أكراشا جوفا و أجربة سغبا لا محيص عن يوم خط بالقلم رضي الله رضانا أهل البيت نصبر على بلائه و يوفينا أجور الصابرين لن تشذ عن رسول الله لحمته و هي مجموعة له في حظيرة القدس تقر بهم عينه و تنجز لهم وعده من كان فينا باذلا مهجته موطنا على لقاء الله نفسه فليرحل معنا فإني راحل مصبحا إن شاء الله تعالى ".  ,   He also like I said earlier , asked some of his companion(s) that they can leave at night if they want , so one can argue that certainly at some point , he was certain of his death , anyways , I am not trying to prove he committed suicide but I am just saying the reasoning that you guys are using isn't solid,  there are many arguments that can be made here, such as , he could have given Yazid allegiance by doing Taqia or he could have gone to some other area where he could hide or something , in my opinion,  he knew for certain he was going to be martyred in Karbala , but he went along with it because it was the divine will. 

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6 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Can anyone tell me if we know for sure Allah won't re-test him on the day of judgement or in some other way? Does anyone have narrations for or against?

Look at the first hadith on page 422: http://jaffaribooks.com/books/Tawhid sadooq english final.pdf

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9 hours ago, 123xo said:

Do you really think they'd let him speak about injustice freely?? Yeah no, this wont happen. Just think about what happened to Julien Assange when he decided to do that. 

Or the drone operator who exposed american drones killing 90% civilians.

Either way, commiting suicide was a bad decision, he could have exposed them and went to prison, maybe even found islam in prison.

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Why He Died: Airman Aaron Bushnell Said ‘No’ to US-Israeli Genocide in Gaza / BreakThrough News / 52 minutes

 

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I'll start a new thread where we can discuss suicide from different perspectives in'sha Allah...I've been meaning do this for years anyway...I have many questions

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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On 2/27/2024 at 6:31 PM, realizm said:

@Eddie Mecca Next thing our Muslim brothers will criticize people who on hunger strikes because they did not make the niyya of fasting. 

It is truly a pity that brothers are stuck with fiqhi stances on such matters when all Islam should have brought to their minds is compassion. 

This is quite an interesting observation.

The Iranian government renamed the street on which the British Embassy sits in Tehran to 'Bobby Sands'. He was a member of the IRA who died while on hunger strike.

I am just flagging this as a data point while I don't personally follow the line that whatever the Iranian government does/allows automatically sets the seal on right/wrong.

Worth noting that the IRA were a proscribed terrorist group (in the UK), although they had support from Irish Americans. Also worth noting is that they were brought into a peace process by Clinton, and their leaders became accepted politicians.

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10 hours ago, Ahmad8888 said:

Or the drone operator who exposed american drones killing 90% civilians.

Either way, commiting suicide was a bad decision, he could have exposed them and went to prison, maybe even found islam in prison.

He's gone back to his creator now let's not criticise him on what and what not he should've done instead. Let's just pray for him he has finally found peace. He is with the most merciful. 

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10 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

This is quite an interesting observation.

The Iranian government renamed the street on which the British Embassy sits in Tehran to 'Bobby Sands'. He was a member of the IRA who died while on hunger strike.

I am just flagging this as a data point while I don't personally follow the line that whatever the Iranian government does/allows automatically sets the seal on right/wrong.

Worth noting that the IRA were a proscribed terrorist group (in the UK), although they had support from Irish Americans. Also worth noting is that they were brought into a peace process by Clinton, and their leaders became accepted politicians.

I knew the IRI had praised the IRA's action, but I was not aware of that Bobby Sands street. Indeed, he died on hunger strike. And it is well known he - alongside with his comrades - even went to the point of spreading their own fecal matter (yes, NAJASA) on the walls of their cells, another extreme act of protest, to show the public how unjust and unhumane their detention was, as they would still remain locked up even under such conditions. RIP.

Yes, there is a thing called national reconciliation, it took place in many countries like France, Lebanon, Algeria, South Africa... But regarding Palestine I feel we're going towards a demonisation of Hamas and any resistance movement. 

 

On 2/28/2024 at 7:35 AM, Abu Nur said:

They who believe and do not mix their belief with wrongdoing - those will have security, and they are [rightly] guided. 6:82

Brother, how can you seriously quote such ayats for people who may be did not even accept the concept of a God ?

On 2/28/2024 at 2:27 AM, Abu Nur said:

If it caused you a discomfort, then there is nothing wrong to utter انا لله وانا اليه راجعون.

I think you were the one to first say that you would not utter such words. Hence our disagreement.

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12 minutes ago, realizm said:

Brother, how can you seriously quote such ayats for people who may be did not even accept the concept of a God ?

I quoted it for us Muslims as warning to be careful not to try justified actions of non muslims and then fall for supporting an wrongdoing, thus mixing our belief with wrongdoings. It is just a common important reminder. 

From our perspective what he did is not right and we should see it that way and not to sugarcoat the good part and leave the bad part.

Edited by Abu Nur
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17 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Worth noting that the IRA were a proscribed terrorist group (in the UK), although they had support from Irish Americans. Also worth noting is that they were brought into a peace process by Clinton, and their leaders became accepted politicians.

This is what I was thinking. Aaron Bushnell impulsively ended his protest in seconds. Bobby Sands spent his whole life protesting, which probably helped his cause more. 

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