Aaron Bushnell نَّا ِلِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ, ʾ

[Haji 2003]

 

 

[Abu Nur]

I will not say such a words about anyone who commit suicide. 

[realizm]

His story is a very sad one. 

News outlets portraying him like he was mentally unstable.

Well, unfortunately, I can affirm this genocide on Gaza going on for more than 4 months has left mental trauma on many people who feel hopeless. Sometimes, we may even question Divine Justice (na`udhubillah)

Yet his action seems like one of self determination and bravery. RIP

[realizm]

On 2/26/2024 at 3:13 PM, Abu Nur said:

I will not say such a words about anyone who commit suicide. 

I think it is unfair that you are reducing his action to suicide, brother.

I feel really sorry that he paid of his life.

He probably did not have the same philosophy as we do regarding self harming, yet gave his life for a cause. 

[Abu Nur]

4 minutes ago, realizm said:

I think it is unfair that you are reducing his action to suicide, brother.

I feel really sorry that he paid of his life.

He probably did not have the same philosophy as we do regarding self harming, yet gave his life for a cause. 

 

 

Setting yourself to fire, knowing you going to die and then die to demonstrate, is not suicide? I think unfortunately we have taking everything too lenient. 

[Diaz]

I still don’t understand why he did this. He could have protested with the protesters or did something more useful for himself and the Palestinians in Gaza. 

[kadhim]

What a sad waste. Clearly he was not in his proper faculties. May he be judged by his level of understanding and intention. 

46 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I will not say such a words about anyone who commit suicide. 

Whatever one thinks of the authenticity of whatever texts that seem to touch on the subject,  what we do know is that most people who do such things to themselves by whatever method are not in their right minds, and by traditional understanding of Islamic teachings, such people are not responsible for their actions. 

[SoRoUsH]

The Islamic verdict on suicide or self-harm is clear. We all know it. 

The question is, why do we have a hard time with this case? 

I think this is the question that we should ponder upon, and it helps us stay away from making judgments upon others. 

It also helps us to better understand the experience of cognitive bias within ourselves, so we could sharpen our own senses of when we are influenced and affected by cognitive biases. 

Edited February 27, 2024 by SoRoUsH

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Whatever one thinks of the authenticity of whatever texts that seem to touch on the subject,  what we do know is that most people who do such things to themselves by whatever method are not in their right minds, and by traditional understanding of Islamic teachings, such people are not responsible for their actions. 

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what is in their mind and will judge them justly. But for me, I can not derive anything in this case, only that from Islamic perspective I cannot utter such a words and need to just keep silent.

[ireallywannaknow]

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

The Islamic verdict on suicide or self-harm is clear. We all know it. 

The question is, why do we have a hard time with this case? 

I think this is the question that we should ponder upon, and it helps us stay away from making judgments upon others. 

It also helps us to better understand the experience of cognitive bias within ourselves, so we could sharpen our own senses of when we are influenced and affected by cognitive biases. 

He most likely wasn't a Muslim, so he doesn't know about the rulings the way we do. That's why it's not cut and dry. 

Self-immolation has at various times in history done the job of waking people up to a cause in a way that other forms of protest does not. Self-immolation stories in America have usually been ignored and buried due to the media but the reason this is getting so much attention is bc he was smart enough to film it. Now people can't ignore it. 

[SoRoUsH]

6 minutes ago, ireallywannaknow said:

He most likely wasn't a Muslim, so he doesn't know about the rulings the way we do. That's why it's not cut and dry. 

Self-immolation has at various times in history done the job of waking people up to a cause in a way that other forms of protest does not. Self-immolation stories in America have usually been ignored and buried due to the media but the reason this is getting so much attention is bc he was smart enough to film it. Now people can't ignore it. 

We do not judge an act by its consequences.

Going back to my previous post, trying to justify an action that we all know very well isn't permitted in Islam is precisely the result of cognitive bias that I stated earlier. 

No body should make a judgement on this person's character. It is not up to us to determine whether he was a good person or bad. All we can say is that his action isn't what our Imams and prophet would've sanctioned. Therefore, we should not be enamoured to praise it or him. 

 

Let's try a different hypothetical scenario: 

If a man drinks alcohol to the point of intoxication, then as a result, commits to a rash action, such as rushing thoughtlessly into an enemy barrack and killing a whole bunch of enemy combatants, would we say that what he did was good? Would we praise his action or him due to this specific action? 

 

Again, we ought to examine our cognitive biases and remain consistent in our judgements to ensure that our judgements are in line with those of our prophet's and Imams'. 

[Eddie Mecca]

9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Setting yourself to fire, knowing you going to die and then die to demonstrate, is not suicide? I think unfortunately we have taking everything too lenient.

Yes, "suicide" is generally wrong but he's a kafir and he's held to a different standard than a Muslim...Allah will judge him based on his mindset  

[Eddie Mecca]

7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

The Islamic verdict on suicide or self-harm is clear. We all know it.

Actually, it's not that clear...almost everything becomes a shade of grey when you zoom in closely with a magnifying glass...there are many proponents of extreme self flagellation...Also, there are those in favor of punching one's own teeth out because the Prophet (peace be upon him) supposedly fell and knocked out a few teeth during Uhud...where do you draw the line? 

Edited February 27, 2024 by Eddie Mecca

[realizm]

8 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what is in their mind and will judge them justly. But for me, I can not derive anything in this case, only that from Islamic perspective I cannot utter such a words and need to just keep silent.

The fact that انا لله وانا اليه راجعون is a universal phrase that mo'minin do pronounce in cases of trials, does not limit its initial meaning to the case of mo'minin.

Will you deny that this poor young man will meet his Lord one day ?

[Haji 2003]

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I will not say such a words about anyone who commit suicide. 

As a serving member of the Forces what courses of action were open to him?

1. Resign without making a fuss
2. Make a public protest

I don't know whether you always get to choose when you leave the military. So (1) may have been difficult.

I don't see too many instances of (2), presumably he felt that there was a chance of him being killed anyway if he did (2). So what he did was the only way of publicising what he believed in.

 

[Meedy]

We all know that suicide is Haram And not allowed in Islam. No body is encouraging or justifying suicide, anyone who feels suicide must seek urgent help. Leave the issue aside for a bit.

Will it have an impact on changing people's views regarding the conflict?

Has He showed more courage/passion/bravery about speaking up against the genocide  then the Arab leaders?

As in he sacrificed himself hoping it may cause a change in people's views ? I think unfortunately this sacrifice will be in vain people's conditions and heart are darkened and will not change they themselves do so. 

Again Please anyone who feels suicide must seek urgent help. It's ok to get help

[Eddie Mecca]

Who Is Aaron Bushnell, and Why Did He Protest Outside the Israeli Embassy? Gaza Famine & More / Richard Medhurst / 3 hours 30 minutes / Feed begins at 22:27

 

[Eddie Mecca]

[Abu_Zahra]

Off topic posts have been removed

Insults and threats are not tolerated here.

Warnings and bans have and will be issued as required. 

[In Gods Name]

Just watched the video of this, i wish i hadn't. 

May Allah curse the zionist state of Israel/the right wing Nethanyahu government and their enablers

[Eddie Mecca]

Reactions from the Middle East of what happened to Aaron Bushnell

https://medium.com/visionarye-talks/reactions-from-the-middle-east-of-what-happened-to-aaron-bushnell-a0227b71982f

 

Member-only story

Reactions from the Middle East of what happened to Aaron Bushnell

The whole world will not let this go.

 

 

Andalusian Horseman

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Visionarye Talks

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16 hours ago

 

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Aaron Bushnell, may he rest in peace.

On social media in America, the moderators are shadow-banning posts and articles that are related to what happened to Aaron. It seems that the media wants to keep this under wraps as much as possible.

But the damage has been done, and the Russians and Chinese will probably not let this go, because it is such a huge event. Because it wasn’t done by the average American citizen, but by a soldier who put on his uniform to serve his country.

For a soldier to protest against the country he is meant to serve goes to such lengths to not even participate but self-immolate himself. He’s basically elevated himself into a symbol of resistance to sections in American society.

The consequences of this will be far reaching in American society. But I want to draw attention to reactions within the Middle East. Because some people feel that he died for people that hated him and the reactions should hopefully put a rest to those words.

Instead of me writing the reactions, why don’t you see it for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If this had happened in China or in Russia you’d see the Americans celebrating and praising them as heroes, however, when the same is done in America it’s usually brushed under and is forgotten soon.

But the anger doesn’t disappear, the despair doesn’t magically vanish overnight, it’s still there, under the carpet and it bubbles and simmers.

I don’t need to remind you that this wasn’t the first time this happened, it was the…

 

[Abu Hadi]

Bismillah Ta'la

He wasn't a Muslim so we can't judge him according to Hukm Shar'iat

He will be judged by Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) based on the Deen he was a part of. 

I don't think he's a hero because that act in itself is a wrong act. A hero is someone who acts in the right way and good results come out of that act.

At the same time it might affect other people in a positive way by highlighting the issue of the genocide. I don't think he was mentally ill but he was under a lot of pressure from his commanders to continue doing things he knew were wrong and he felt this was the only way he could express himself in a way that people would listen. I disagree with his thinking but I think he was sincere in thinking this and feeling this way. 

May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) judge him with His mercy and not with His justice

Edited February 27, 2024 by Abu Hadi

[Guest Kazz]

Instead of judging the act itself and the man which is in the interest of the Z1ioni$ts , why not admire the man's zealousness, courage and sense of guilt and helplessness?! some people are really naive, that they don't know when to criticize and when not to , they think criticism is always good, well its NOT, sometimes it's in the interest of your enemies! 

[Haji 2003]

I don't know whether the following is fake or real, but it adds some colour as to why someone may act in the way that he did. This is dated November 2023, but who knows what mandatory orders have been issued since?

 

[realizm]

3 hours ago, Guest Kazz said:

Instead of judging the act itself and the man which is in the interest of the Z1ioni$ts , why not admire the man's zealousness, courage and sense of guilt and helplessness?! some people are really naive, that they don't know when to criticize and when not to , they think criticism is always good, well its NOT, sometimes it's in the interest of your enemies! 

I swear to God.

[realizm]

@Eddie Mecca Next thing our Muslim brothers will criticize people who on hunger strikes because they did not make the niyya of fasting. 

It is truly a pity that brothers are stuck with fiqhi stances on such matters when all Islam should have brought to their minds is compassion. 

[SoRoUsH]

41 minutes ago, realizm said:

@Eddie Mecca

It is truly a pity that brothers are stuck with fiqhi stances on such matters when all Islam should have brought to their minds is compassion. 

We should always "stick" to the fiqh of Islam. I understand that there are always nuances, but to suggest that we should be compassionate and not "stick" to Islamic fiqh is a deviation and misunderstanding of the role and purpose of fiqh. The source of fiqh and shari'a is God's compassion and mercy. 

When God forbids suicide and self-harm, it is due to His compassion.

 

[Abu Hadi]

The other thing I wanted to say is that I am somewhat familiar with the US Military Justice system and how it works.

As some of you may know and some of you may not, the military has it's own courts and it's own judicial system that is seperate from the 'civilian' system, i.e. the one we are all familiar with. Many people, even US citizens who haven't had exposure to the military think that we all have one justice system and system of courts. We don't. In the military some of the rules are different. 

One of the rules that is different is that not complying with a direct order (like the document that hajj posted) is a punishable offense and you will go to military prison for doing this and may be 'dishonorably discharged' i.e. kicked out of the military in a way that will make you ineligible for veteran's benefits, benefits the govt only gives to veterans including free health care, free college, etc. If you refuse a direct order, you are put in the military court system, then usually punished since the military doesn't have a jury system like the civilian courts. The case is decided by a judge. The judges aren't usually sympathetic to soldiers who disobey orders. 

Aaron probably knew this and this is why he thought what he did was a better option than going to military prison then getting dishonorably discharged. I actually think that he should have just disobeyed orders because he would have a strong case that the orders he was given were actually illegal and unconstitutional, i.e. they were unlawful orders, and he or his military lawyer could have cited the ICJ case in which they ruled that Israel was 'plausibly committing genocide'. Cooperating with genocide is illegal under US law and thus this would be an unlawful order. If he could have proved this, then nothing bad would have happened to him. Even if he didn't prove it, and he were to go to prison, this still would have been better than what he did because it would have made a change by setting a precedent and maybe and probably other soldiers would have done the same thing. That might have actually made a change. What he just did will be forgotten about by most as soon as we restart the next media cycle (probably tomorrow) so probably not much change and he himself suffered the worst consequences of what he did, not the people who are actually doing the genocide. 

 

Edited February 27, 2024 by Abu Hadi

[Guest Kazz]

Im sure Netnyaho would  thank those who shifted this act from pointing to the horrors of the genocide to to criticizing the man and the act itself! 

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, Guest Kazz said:

Im sure Netnyaho would  thank those who shifted this act from pointing to the horrors of the genocide to to criticizing the man and the act itself! 

How can we praise an protest that is noble (noble for criticizing Israel and their killings) mixed with wrongdoing from Islam perspective? What is the nature of this praise? Will it be considered an wrongdoing to praise a person act which is mixed with wrongdoing? 

[Guest Kazz]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

How can we praise an protest that is noble (noble for criticizing Israel and their killings) mixed with wrongdoing from Islam perspective? What is the nature of this praise? Will it be considered an wrongdoing to praise a person act which is mixed with wrongdoing? 

We all know what Islam stance is on burning one self , this man isnt a muslim so he doesnt know your Fiqh , we are not promoting this act when we praise his stance , its just an overall supportive action against the Zio genocide machine , you know btw what you guys are doing reminds me of how some Sunni Muslims would criticize Lebanese resistence when they attack " Israeli" positions , because they say sometimes ( ya zahraa ) and they turn the whole conversation into a shirk vs tawheed which in turn creates division and serves the zio agenda , how about we set aside the negative aspects and focus instead on whats positive and be practical ?!! 

[In Gods Name]

 

[In Gods Name]

4 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

The other thing I wanted to say is that I am somewhat familiar with the US Military Justice system and how it works.

As some of you may know and some of you may not, the military has it's own courts and it's own judicial system that is seperate from the 'civilian' system, i.e. the one we are all familiar with. Many people, even US citizens who haven't had exposure to the military think that we all have one justice system and system of courts. We don't. In the military some of the rules are different. 

One of the rules that is different is that not complying with a direct order (like the document that hajj posted) is a punishable offense and you will go to military prison for doing this and may be 'dishonorably discharged' i.e. kicked out of the military in a way that will make you ineligible for veteran's benefits, benefits the govt only gives to veterans including free health care, free college, etc. If you refuse a direct order, you are put in the military court system, then usually punished since the military doesn't have a jury system like the civilian courts. The case is decided by a judge. The judges aren't usually sympathetic to soldiers who disobey orders. 

Aaron probably knew this and this is why he thought what he did was a better option than going to military prison then getting dishonorably discharged. I actually think that he should have just disobeyed orders because he would have a strong case that the orders he was given were actually illegal and unconstitutional, i.e. they were unlawful orders, and he or his military lawyer could have cited the ICJ case in which they ruled that Israel was 'plausibly committing genocide'. Cooperating with genocide is illegal under US law and thus this would be an unlawful order. If he could have proved this, then nothing bad would have happened to him. Even if he didn't prove it, and he were to go to prison, this still would have been better than what he did because it would have made a change by setting a precedent and maybe and probably other soldiers would have done the same thing. That might have actually made a change. What he just did will be forgotten about by most as soon as we restart the next media cycle (probably tomorrow) so probably not much change and he himself suffered the worst consequences of what he did, not the people who are actually doing the genocide. 

 

Did ABC, NBC, FOX, CNN cover this?

[realizm]

3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

How can we praise an protest that is noble (noble for criticizing Israel and their killings) mixed with wrongdoing from Islam perspective? What is the nature of this praise? Will it be considered an wrongdoing to praise a person act which is mixed with wrongdoing? 

No one asked you to praise his act, but to respect his intention, or least not tarnish it. 

His intention was - I am taking his own words - not to kill himself, but an extreme act of protest. 

[Abu Nur]

1 minute ago, realizm said:

No one asked you to praise his act, but to respect his intention, or least not tarnish it. 

His intention was - I am taking his own words - not to kill himself, but an extreme act of protest. 

No, I do not respect an intention and act of setting yourself on fire while knowingly it will mostly leads to death for the cause of protest, because it is wrong.