Imam Ali (as) was the rightful caliph

[rafidi110]

Salam everyone.

Let's get straight to the point. Majority of Muslims believe that Abu bakr, umar, and uthman are "rightfully guided". Based on what criteria? The greatest leader of all was the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahf). Therefore the greatest candidate for the caliph after the Prophet would be the one who most resembles the Prophet as well as the one the Prophet trusted himself. We find this representation in Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

The first evidence I have here is when the Prophet did not choose Abu Bakr as the one to reveal Surah Bara'ah, but sent Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to deliver it at Makkah when Abu Bakr was already on his way there. When the Prophet was asked why he did not send the message to Abu Bakr to reveal and rather Imam Ali (عليه السلام), he says

Quote

"'Ali is from me and I am from 'Ali. And none should represent me except myself or 'Ali." 

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3719  Book 49, Hadith 116

 Hasan (Darussalam)

Is there ever any (authentic) statement uttered from the Prophet as this which relates to the first 3 caliphs? Evidently not. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is from the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and vice versa. Surely, if not the entirety of the sahaba, abu bakr should've at least known this as he was the one who was shadowed by Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

This is also shown through another narration :

Quote

""The Prophet (ﷺ) sent Abu Bakr with the (announcement of) Bara'ah (the declaration to publicize the disavowal of the idolaters). Then he summoned him and said: 'It is not right for anyone to convey this except a man among my family.'"So he called for 'Ali and gave it to him.""

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3090 Book 47, Hadith 142

Grade: Hasan (Darussalam)

 

The second clear proof that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the best fit for leadership after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is shown in this statement from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Quote

"the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3730 Book 49, Hadith 127

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

Now one might give some sort of context that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did some action similar to what Harun (عليه السلام) did which is why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said this. Would the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have said the same if abu bakr or umar or uthman had done this? Would he have compared them with himself to the relationship as the same of Harun (عليه السلام) to Musa (عليه السلام)?? 

Let's say that this statement does not really have any meaning  because of the context that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did that action similar to Harun (عليه السلام)  

Can you explain this response from Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas when Muawiya asked him why he would not criticize Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?
 

Quote

"It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said about him that I would not rebuke him... I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) say about 'Ali as he left him behind in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'Ali said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me."

Sahih Muslim 2404d Book 44, Hadith 50

This shows that the severity of this statement goes beyond just a mere expression said by the Prophet because of his love for Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This statement is one of the reasons that the governor of Muawiya, who would curse Imam Ali (عليه السلام) openly, would not rebuke Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

In the same hadith, Sa'd goes on to say,

Quote

"And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger, and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We had been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory."

The words uttered at Khaybr is known by all. As if "and his Messenger love him too" was not enough, it is clearly stated that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Please let me know if there is any such praise shown to Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman (that is authentic). Though it is weak narration, I believe, it is also stated that both Abu Bakr and Umar tried to command the army in Khaybr before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) came and both failed horribly.

Another proof that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the rightful caliph is shown through this hadith from Aisha:

Quote

"They say that the Prophet (ﷺ) made a will for 'Ali,[1] but he called for a basin in which to urinate, then he went flaccid suddenly (and died), so how could he leave a will?!" The Shaikh said: Azhar (one of the narrators) is Ibn Sa'd As-Samman."

[1] Meaning, appointing him as the Khalifah.

Sunan an-Nasa'i 33 Book 1, Hadith 33

Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

This proves that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did in fact appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the caliph. We also know that Aisha had hatred for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) shown from battle of Jamal, 

Sahih al-Bukhari 4459 Book 64, Hadith 475, Sahih Muslim 1636 Book 25, Hadith 28, and from many other hadiths and narrations, which explains why she was denying that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام). However that does not explain why they (the ummah) were saying that the Prophet appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for caliph. 

The most evident and prominent proof of the appointment of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is shown in Ghadeer

Quote

"from the Prophet (ﷺ): "For whomever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla.""

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3713 Book 49, Hadith 109

Grade: Sahih 

The debate of Ghadeer has already been handled with many times. All the objections of Imam Ali's appointment here have been answered. 

People with ignorance may say "the Prophet never appointed anyone" to which I present this

Quote

"Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah, and whoever obeys the ruler I appoint, obeys me, and whoever disobeys him, disobeys me.""

Sahih al-Bukhari 7137 Book 93, Hadith 1

Who else could the Prophet be talking about here? There is no such narration of him speaking as such to the likes of abu bakr or umar or uthman. 

Though there are many many many more evidences for the true right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), I would like to end it here with the one book all of us can agree on, the Quran. 

Quote

Moses prayed, “My Lord! Uplift my heart for me, and make my task easy, and remove the impediment from my tongue, so people may understand my speech, and grant me a helper from my family, Aaron, my brother. Strengthen me through him, and let him share my task, so that we may glorify You much,  and remember You much, for truly You have ˹always˺ been overseeing us." 

Allah responded, “All that you requested has been granted, O  Moses!

Surah Taha, ayats 25-36

Who did the Prophet say Ali was like to him again?

[Guest Guest]

seems convincing enough to me

[rafidi110]

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this from others 

[sunnism]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:16 AM, rafidi110 said:

Salam everyone.

Let's get straight to the point. Majority of Muslims believe that Abu bakr, umar, and uthman are "rightfully guided". Based on what criteria? The greatest leader of all was the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahf). Therefore the greatest candidate for the caliph after the Prophet would be the one who most resembles the Prophet as well as the one the Prophet trusted himself. We find this representation in Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

The first evidence I have here is when the Prophet did not choose Abu Bakr as the one to reveal Surah Bara'ah, but sent Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to deliver it at Makkah when Abu Bakr was already on his way there. When the Prophet was asked why he did not send the message to Abu Bakr to reveal and rather Imam Ali (عليه السلام), he says

Is there ever any (authentic) statement uttered from the Prophet as this which relates to the first 3 caliphs? Evidently not. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is from the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and vice versa. Surely, if not the entirety of the sahaba, abu bakr should've at least known this as he was the one who was shadowed by Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

This is also shown through another narration :

 

The second clear proof that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the best fit for leadership after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is shown in this statement from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Now one might give some sort of context that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did some action similar to what Harun (عليه السلام) did which is why the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said this. Would the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have said the same if abu bakr or umar or uthman had done this? Would he have compared them with himself to the relationship as the same of Harun (عليه السلام) to Musa (عليه السلام)?? 

Let's say that this statement does not really have any meaning  because of the context that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did that action similar to Harun (عليه السلام)  

Can you explain this response from Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas when Muawiya asked him why he would not criticize Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?
 

This shows that the severity of this statement goes beyond just a mere expression said by the Prophet because of his love for Imam Ali (عليه السلام). This statement is one of the reasons that the governor of Muawiya, who would curse Imam Ali (عليه السلام) openly, would not rebuke Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

In the same hadith, Sa'd goes on to say,

The words uttered at Khaybr is known by all. As if "and his Messenger love him too" was not enough, it is clearly stated that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Please let me know if there is any such praise shown to Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman (that is authentic). Though it is weak narration, I believe, it is also stated that both Abu Bakr and Umar tried to command the army in Khaybr before Imam Ali (عليه السلام) came and both failed horribly.

Another proof that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the rightful caliph is shown through this hadith from Aisha:

This proves that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) did in fact appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the caliph. We also know that Aisha had hatred for Imam Ali (عليه السلام) shown from battle of Jamal, 

Sahih al-Bukhari 4459 Book 64, Hadith 475, Sahih Muslim 1636 Book 25, Hadith 28, and from many other hadiths and narrations, which explains why she was denying that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام). However that does not explain why they (the ummah) were saying that the Prophet appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) for caliph. 

The most evident and prominent proof of the appointment of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is shown in Ghadeer

The debate of Ghadeer has already been handled with many times. All the objections of Imam Ali's appointment here have been answered. 

People with ignorance may say "the Prophet never appointed anyone" to which I present this

Who else could the Prophet be talking about here? There is no such narration of him speaking as such to the likes of abu bakr or umar or uthman. 

Though there are many many many more evidences for the true right of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), I would like to end it here with the one book all of us can agree on, the Quran. 

Who did the Prophet say Ali was like to him again?

All this proves nothing. All these are just virtues of ali. There isn't any text that says that ali is the caliph after me or anything. There are virtues of other companions which are not shared by ali. And there are virtues of abu bakr, umar and uthman which are not shared by anybody. You will reject those virtues because only sunnis narrated those virtues. But there are many reasons to believe the Sunni narrative of abu bakr, umar and uthman. The most easiest one is the marriage of uthman to two daughters of the prophet. 

 

[rafidi110]

21 minutes ago, sunnism said:

All this proves nothing. All these are just virtues of ali. There isn't any text that says that ali is the caliph after me or anything. There are virtues of other companions which are not shared by ali. And there are virtues of abu bakr, umar and uthman which are not shared by anybody. You will reject those virtues because only sunnis narrated those virtues. But there are many reasons to believe the Sunni narrative of abu bakr, umar and uthman. The most easiest one is the marriage of uthman to two daughters of the prophet. 

That's not the point. The point is that these hadiths clearly show that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the best choice for caliph as he's the one who represented and resembled the Prophet the most. Unless you believe Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3090 Book 47, Hadith 142 and Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3719  Book 49, Hadith 116 are not authentic? There is no such hadith for Abu Bakr like this. 

 

[Qadri_01]

Asking why the prophet did not say about anyone what he said about ali is same as saying why did allah gave our prophet the title of kaleem which he gave to moses, or why didn't allah speak directly to our prophet regularly like he did to musa (عليه السلام)

[145_turbo_16V]

The khilafat is a human creation. I believe many learned Sunni ulama will admit to this. Only some of the fanatics will say this is aqeeda.

Sheikh Umar Ramadhan explained his view which ( I believe he said) Al-Baqilani also supported this claim (I don't have this book) as there is no issue of tafdhiliyat. But in any case his opinon is the minorty.. You can find his view on this on youtube. You can dismiss his view if you want, after he is just another sheikh, just like anyone else. His views can be weakened or supported as you see fit.

In the end the best you can say is there were isyarah (which can be disputed, and Sheikh Umar disputes them) which points to Abu Bakr.

IMO, this is all human creation. There is nothing divine about it at all.

BTW You all know that in Ibn Hajr said that Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wanted to write about the Khilafah right?  This was his opinion and feel free to weaken it. I have this book. So it's not completely true that Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't care about this issue at all.

Edited March 27 by 145_turbo_16V

[Qadri_01]

5 hours ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Sheikh Umar Ramadhan explained his view which ( I believe he said) Al-Baqilani also supported this claim (I don't have this book) as there is no issue of tafdhiliyat. But in any case his opinon is the minorty.. You can find his view on this on youtube. You can dismiss his view if you want, after he is just another sheikh, just like anyone else. His views can be weakened or supported as you see fit.

Baqilani's opinion is weak and odd. Ahlus sunnah are agreed upon tafdheel.

Edited March 28 by Qadri_01

[sunnism]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:20 PM, rafidi110 said:

That's not the point. The point is that these hadiths clearly show that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was the best choice for caliph as he's the one who represented and resembled the Prophet the most. Unless you believe Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3090 Book 47, Hadith 142 and Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3719  Book 49, Hadith 116 are not authentic? There is no such hadith for Abu Bakr like this. 

 

In your dreams. Sound virtues of abu bakr are greater than sound virtues of ali. Abu bakr being the most beloved to messenger of allah after his lord, allah not being pleased with anyone apart from Abu bakr, prophet saying he benifitted the most out of all people in terms of money and his life is greater than all the sound virtues of ali combined. 

[rafidi110]

18 hours ago, sunnism said:

In your dreams. Sound virtues of abu bakr are greater than sound virtues of ali. Abu bakr being the most beloved to messenger of allah after his lord, allah not being pleased with anyone apart from Abu bakr, prophet saying he benifitted the most out of all people in terms of money and his life is greater than all the sound virtues of ali combined. 

maybe don't blindly believe da'if hadiths? Besides your first point directly contradicts this hadith, so I'll go ahead and disregard that. 

Quote

"There was a bird with the Prophet (ﷺ), so he said: 'O Allah, send to me the most beloved of Your creatures to eat this bird with me.' So 'Ali came and ate with him."

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3721

Grade: Hassan

Second virtue doesn't even make sense. third virtue makes me laugh, source? anyways those 3 very loosely based weak hadiths don't do anything in comparison to all the hadiths I quoted. Perhaps you should become a bit more open minded.

[Sublimistri]

Rightfully guided would mean guided by god; he is actually guided by the guidance of god -- this would be a prophet or someone guided by a prophet with the signs of god the prophet carries.

The prophets have to get justice; gods signs are signs to revelation crimes to the people for sharia (the main criminal revealed in this criminality/corruption is an antichrist who fooled his followers into attacking the prophet); the caliphate forms off accepting this islam for a prophet; therefore all prophets are caliphs and leaders with their revelation of the entire muslim ummah.

[sunnism]

On 3/29/2024 at 12:46 AM, rafidi110 said:

maybe don't blindly believe da'if hadiths? Besides your first point directly contradicts this hadith, so I'll go ahead and disregard that. 

Second virtue doesn't even make sense. third virtue makes me laugh, source? anyways those 3 very loosely based weak hadiths don't do anything in comparison to all the hadiths I quoted. Perhaps you should become a bit more open minded.

Those virtues are authentic. And hadith tayr is weak by consensus of hadith scholars. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, sunnism said:

Those virtues are authentic. And hadith tayr is weak by consensus of hadith scholars.

Salam for you any virtue of Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) is weak but fake virtues of his opponents are authentic in similar fashion of any anti shia wahabi/Salafi .

Hadith of Tayr has been mentioned one of most authentic narrations in sunni sources even by fair sunnis but because it's totally in favor of Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) so then you have considerd it weak according to so called wahabi/Salfi scholars who are considering every hadith in praising of Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام)  as weak just due to their hatred toward him . 

which infamous staunch  enemy of Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) , the so called Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah has called it weak just due to his hatred & enmity with Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) while all narrators in chain of hadith have been mentioned as most Thiqa (truswothy) sunni narrators. 

26. Hadith Al-Tair, Investigating Its Authenticity

Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H) states:

حديث الطائر من المكذوبات الموضوعات عند أهل العلم

Hadith al-Tair is one of the fabricated lies in the opinion of the people of knowledge.1

Abu al-‘Abbas Ahmad b. ‘Abd al-Halim b. Taymiyyah al-Harrani, Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qurtubah; 1st edition, 1406 H) [annotator: Dr. Muhammad Rashad Salim], vol. 7, p. 371

Meanwhile, Imam Ibn Asakir (d. 571 H) records:

أخبرنا أبو غالب بن البنا أنا أبو الحسين بن الأبنوسي أنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني نا محمد بن مخلد بن حفص نا حاتم بن الليث نا عبيد الله بن موسى عن عيسى بن عمر القارئ عن السدي نا أنس بن مالك قال أهدي إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أطيار فقسمها وترك طيرا فقال اللهم ائتني بأحب خلقك إليك يأكل معي من هذا الطير فجاء علي بن أبي طالب فدخل يأكل معه من ذلك الطير

Abu Ghalib b. al-Bana – Abu al-Husayn b. al-Abnusi – Abu al-Hasan al-Daraquṭni – Muhammad b. Mukhlid b. Hafs – Hatim b. al-Layth – ‘Ubayd Allah b. Musa – ‘Isa b. ‘Umar al-Qari – al-Suddi – Anas b. Malik:

Birds were given as gifts to the Messenger of Allah. So, he distributed them and left a bird. Then he said, “O Allah, bring to me the most beloved to You of Your creation to eat with me from this bird. So, ‘Ali b. Abi Talib came and entered and ate with him from that bird.2

Ibn al-Jawzi (363) has recorded it with his chain from the route of al-Daraquṭni – Muhammad b. Mukhlid – Hatim b. al-Layth – ‘Ubayd Allah b. Musa with it (i.e. the full chain with the hadith).

All the narrators of this chain are trustworthy, except for the difference of opinions concerning al-Suddi, and he is al-Suddi al-Kabir, and his name is Isma’il b. ‘Abd al-Rahman.16

Since al-Suddi too is thiqah (trustworthy), or at least saduq (very truthful) due to the disputes about him, the sanad is therefore either sahih or hasan. We go with the stricter ruling. As such, we declare that chain of the hadith is hasan due to al-Suddi. All its narrators are reliable, and there is no disconnection whatsoever in the sanad.

Meanwhile, the hadith itself is absolutely sahih due to the existence of massive, overwhelming corroboration (mutaba’at) for al-Suddi. Imam al-Hakim (d. 403 H), for instance, declares about Hadith al-Tair:

وقد رواه عن أنس جماعة من أصحابه زيادة على ثلاثين نفسا

It has been narrated from Anas by a group of his companions, numbering more than thirty individuals.17

This establishes the tawatur of the hadith from Anas, and shoots the report of al-Suddi from the level of hasan to the highest sahih grade.

Quote

Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 H) states about the first narrator:

أبو غالب ابن البناء الشيخ الصالح الثقة، مسند بغداد، أبو غالب أحمد بن الإمام أبي علي الحسن بن أحمد بن عبد الله بن البناء البغدادي الحنبلي.

Abu Ghalib b. al-Bana: The righteous Shaykh, the thiqah (trustworthy) narrator, the hadith transmitter of Baghdad, Abu Ghalib Ahmad b. Imam Abu ‘Ali al-Hasan b. Ahmad b. ‘Abd Allah b. al-Bana al-Baghdadi al-Hanbali.3

Concerning the second narrator, he further says:

ابن الآبنوسي الشيخ الثقة، أبو الحسين، محمد بن أحمد بن محمد بن علي، ابن الآبنوسي البغدادي.

Ibn al-Abnusi: The thiqah (trustworthy) Shaykh, Abu al-Husayn, Muhamamd b. Ahmad b. Muhammad b. ‘Ali, Ibn al-Abnusi al-Baghdadi.4

https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib-olawuyi/26-hadith-al-tair-investigating-its-authenticity

Edited April 8 by Ashvazdanghe

[sunnism]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

Meanwhile, Imam Ibn Asakir (d. 571 H) records:

أخبرنا أبو غالب بن البنا أنا أبو الحسين بن الأبنوسي أنا أبو الحسن الدارقطني نا محمد بن مخلد بن حفص نا حاتم بن الليث نا عبيد الله بن موسى عن عيسى بن عمر القارئ عن السدي نا أنس بن مالك قال أهدي إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أطيار فقسمها وترك طيرا فقال اللهم ائتني بأحب خلقك إليك يأكل معي من هذا الطير فجاء علي بن أبي طالب فدخل يأكل معه من ذلك الطير

Abu Ghalib b. al-Bana – Abu al-Husayn b. al-Abnusi – Abu al-Hasan al-Daraquṭni – Muhammad b. Mukhlid b. Hafs – Hatim b. al-Layth – ‘Ubayd Allah b. Musa – ‘Isa b. ‘Umar al-Qari – al-Suddi – Anas b. Malik:

Birds were given as gifts to the Messenger of Allah. So, he distributed them and left a bird. Then he said, “O Allah, bring to me the most beloved to You of Your creation to eat with me from this bird. So, ‘Ali b. Abi Talib came and entered and ate with him from that bird.2

Ibn al-Jawzi (363) has recorded it with his chain from the route of al-Daraquṭni – Muhammad b. Mukhlid – Hatim b. al-Layth – ‘Ubayd Allah b. Musa with it (i.e. the full chain with the hadith).

All the narrators of this chain are trustworthy, except for the difference of opinions concerning al-Suddi, and he is al-Suddi al-Kabir, and his name is Isma’il b. ‘Abd al-Rahman.16

Ubaydullah bin musa and suddi are shia. This repot is in accordance with their school of thought. Thus it is weak. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

20 hours ago, sunnism said:

Ubaydullah bin musa and suddi are shia. This repot is in accordance with their school of thought. Thus it is weak. 

Salam this  is most typical wahabi response when they can't refute a cemented fact ; you call everyone who says something against your biased mindset as Shia ; although name of both of narrators only have been mentioned in so called Sunni sahih books as most trustworthy Sunni narrators but because they have narrated something in favor os Shias so then you have called them shias . 

Edited April 9 by Ashvazdanghe

[sunnism]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this  is most typical wahabi response when they can't refute a cemented fact ; you call everyone who says something against your biased mindset as Shia ; although name of both of narrators only have been mentioned in so called Sunni sahih books as most trustworthy Sunni narrators but because they have narrated something in favor os Shias so then you have called them shias . 

Doesn't matter. There are imami shiites who are considered trustworthy in sunni rijal. But despite this, if they narrate something which supports their madhab, then it is not accepted. 

[rafidi110]

On 3/27/2024 at 5:41 PM, sunnism said:

In your dreams. Sound virtues of abu bakr are greater than sound virtues of ali. Abu bakr being the most beloved to messenger of allah after his lord, allah not being pleased with anyone apart from Abu bakr, prophet saying he benifitted the most out of all people in terms of money and his life is greater than all the sound virtues of ali combined. 

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, one of the four Ahlul Sunnah Imams of fiqh, said: “There is no Companion about whom as many merits are reported as Ali ibn Abu Talib.”

The prominent Ahlul Sunnah scholar of India, Shah Ismail Muhaddith Dehlvi, wrote: “Ali al-Murtadha has also an edge over Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and Umar Faruq and this edge lies because of the greater number of his followers and all the highest spiritual and saintly activity, from his days to the end of the world, has to be mediated through him, and he has a say in the kingdom of the kings and the leadership of the leaders and this is not hidden from those who are familiar with the world of sovereignty. Most spiritual chains are directly derived from Ali al-Murtadha. So, on the Day of Judgment, Ali’s army, including followers of high status and great reputation, will outnumber and outshine others to be a source of wonder for all the spectators.”

In fact, to even compare Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) with any of the companions is absurd. It is a misunderstanding of who Ali (عليه السلام) is, what Ali (عليه السلام) represented and stood for. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was on a different level; he wasn’t a mere companion like Abu Bakr or Umar or even Ammar and Salman.

[Abu_Zahra]

Instead of beating around the bush or going around in circles,  one can simply refer to the concise but well researched works of our late brother Toyib Olawuyi (rahimallah alayh). It doesn't get more clear than this. 

https://www.al-islam.org/person/toyib-olawuyi

[Panzerwaffe]

On 3/2/2024 at 2:25 AM, sunnism said:

All this proves nothing. All these are just virtues of ali. There isn't any text that says that ali is the caliph after me or anything. There are virtues of other companions which are not shared by ali. And there are virtues of abu bakr, umar and uthman which are not shared by anybody. You will reject those virtues because only sunnis narrated those virtues. But there are many reasons to believe the Sunni narrative of abu bakr, umar and uthman. The most easiest one is the marriage of uthman to two daughters of the prophet. 

 

By that logic shouldn’t uthmans be the first caliph ? 

[علوي]

Is there any hadith appointing Abu Bakr as caliph?

This hadith seems pretty clear to me:

On 2/24/2024 at 5:46 AM, rafidi110 said:

Quote

"'Ali is from me and I am from 'Ali. And none should represent me except myself or 'Ali." 

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3719  Book 49, Hadith 116

 Hasan (Darussalam)

 

[layman]

The very foundation of Sunnism in term of Leadership after the wafat of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) are the 4 elected Caliphs. They were stamped as "guided" by Sunnis.

Words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) shall be not used against them, let alone historical facts. Only those words that upgrade them can be repeated and told to people.

Leave the Sunnis alone if they insist on their belief, the same ways we leave the Christians and Jews.

Belief is very personal and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be the Absolute Judge.

The path of Truth is not easy to follow unless Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guides us to see it.  Even that we must make own steps to accept it.

A simple fact that we make Salawats to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Family at the end of our daily Prayers. Without it, the prayer is considered invalid. We accept the leadership of the Prophet to guide us to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but for majority of Muslims, the leadership of Family (aale) of Muhammad is forgotten, as if the Salawats in daily Prayers are just routine actions and no impact on how to lead our life in this world, serving Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and hereafter.

Wallahualam,

Layman.

 

Edited April 13 by layman

[sunnism]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:07 AM, rafidi110 said:

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, one of the four Ahlul Sunnah Imams of fiqh, said: “There is no Companion about whom as many merits are reported as Ali ibn Abu Talib.”

I didn't said abu bakr and umar have more virtues than ali in number. I said they have greater. Ali have more virtues in quatity but abu bakr and umar had lesser virtues than him but had greater than his virtues. The simple fact that prophet kept them above him whenever he used to mention virtues of his companions collectively. 

[sunnism]

On 4/12/2024 at 8:57 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

Instead of beating around the bush or going around in circles,  one can simply refer to the concise but well researched works of our late brother Toyib Olawuyi (rahimallah alayh). It doesn't get more clear than this. 

https://www.al-islam.org/person/toyib-olawuyi

I already read his works. I have read all the works that shia take pride in. All he wrote in his books were used up arguments. 

[sunnism]

On 4/13/2024 at 10:12 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

By that logic shouldn’t uthmans be the first caliph ? 

Why should he become the first caliph. We didn't said that being a son in law of the prophet is matter which proves superiority over others. What we said is that uthman being son in law of prophet is a great virtue which cannot be denied. If you have two daughters, and you give two of your daughters to the same man, that means by default that you view him as a good person. 

[sunnism]

On 4/13/2024 at 11:47 AM, علوي said:

Is there any hadith appointing Abu Bakr as caliph?

This hadith seems pretty clear to me:

 

Nope. 

And the hadith which you quoted is about conveying surah baraah. That doesn't mean that ali with represent him in every single thing. Prophet used to appoint many people as his representative when he went out of madina. 

[sunnism]

On 4/13/2024 at 3:01 PM, layman said:

A simple fact that we make Salawats to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and His Family at the end of our daily Prayers. Without it, the prayer is considered invalid

First of all. Who told you that making salawat upon the prophet's family is obligatory in salah. 

[123xo]

2 minutes ago, sunnism said:

First of all. Who told you that making salawat upon the prophet's family is obligatory in salah. 

Deff not omar or abu bakir 

[علوي]

9 hours ago, sunnism said:

Nope.

khalas then

There is no hadith appointing Abu Bakr or Omar as caliph.

There are ahadith appointing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as caliph. (1) (2) (3) (4)

Therefore,

Imam Ali has a greater right over the caliphate than Abu Bakr and Omar.

[Panzerwaffe]

12 hours ago, sunnism said:

Why should he become the first caliph. We didn't said that being a son in law of the prophet is matter which proves superiority over others. What we said is that uthman being son in law of prophet is a great virtue which cannot be denied. If you have two daughters, and you give two of your daughters to the same man, that means by default that you view him as a good person. 

For sure at that time 

but in future that person can become an apostate too 

even prophet cannot do that unless in specific instances which are in Hadith 

[Abu Hadi]

On 3/27/2024 at 3:08 PM, 145_turbo_16V said:

The khilafat is a human creation. I believe many learned Sunni ulama will admit to this. Only some of the fanatics will say this is aqeeda.

Sheikh Umar Ramadhan explained his view which ( I believe he said) Al-Baqilani also supported this claim (I don't have this book) as there is no issue of tafdhiliyat. But in any case his opinon is the minorty.. You can find his view on this on youtube. You can dismiss his view if you want, after he is just another sheikh, just like anyone else. His views can be weakened or supported as you see fit.

In the end the best you can say is there were isyarah (which can be disputed, and Sheikh Umar disputes them) which points to Abu Bakr.

IMO, this is all human creation. There is nothing divine about it at all.

BTW You all know that in Ibn Hajr said that Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wanted to write about the Khilafah right?  This was his opinion and feel free to weaken it. I have this book. So it's not completely true that Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) didn't care about this issue at all.

Do u know of any functioning organization, business, household, or even small corner shop that functions well with no leader ?  Then what about the Ummah ? It says in the Quran 'This Ummah or yours is one Ummah'. It is one group with 2 billion people in it. 

Even after the death of Rasoulallah, the Ummah was 10s of thousands of people but with no leader ? If a store can't function without a leader what about a group made of 10s of thousands ? 

Rasoulallah left very clear and explicit instructions about who was to lead the Ummah after him. It was only after the coup of Abu Bakr and Umar that they launched at Saqifah that the institution of  Caliphate became fake and man made because the people followed them instead of following Rasoulallah and they (Abu,Bakr and Umar) had no right or instructions from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) regarding what they did. They played a political game and the people went along with it. That political game continues till today

As the saying goes 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'. The stupid prizes that we won, as an Ummah, because we played this game are the Ummayads, The Abbasids, The Ottomans, and more recently ISIS and the various Arab dictators of the present day.

We will continue to win stupid prizes until the Ummah in general and not just the Shia acknowledge that following Abu Bakr and Umar after Rasoulallah was a mistake and was against the orders of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) given to Rasoulallah and that Ahl Al Bayt(عليه السلام) and our living Imam(afs) are the true and rightful leaders appointed by Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This acknowledgement will pave the way for the reappearance of Al Qaim Al Hujjat(afs) and as Rasoulallah said for the world to be filled with peace, justice, and equity whereas before it was filled with injustice and tyrrany. 

 

Edited April 20 by Abu Hadi

[Qadri_01]

16 hours ago, علوي said:

khalas then

There is no hadith appointing Abu Bakr or Omar as caliph.

No khalas. It's your homemade rule that prophet need to appoint abu bakr and umar in order for them to be caliphs.

 

16 hours ago, علوي said:

There are ahadith appointing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as caliph. (1) (2) (3) (4)

All those ahadith are weak, fabricated, or vague. None of them proves explicitely that ali is the caliph after the prophet.

[Qadri_01]

13 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

For sure at that time 

but in future that person can become an apostate too 

even prophet cannot do that unless in specific instances which are in Hadith 

That doesn't solve the problem. You still have to accept that uthman was a great man in the eyes of the prophet in his time. That single handedly debunks that he was a hypocrite or any of that sort. Whether he became apostate or not is a different matter.

[Qadri_01]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Do u know of any functioning organization, business, household, or even small corner shop that functions well with no leader ?  Then what about the Ummah ? It says in the Quran 'This Ummah or yours is one Ummah'. It is one group with 2 billion people in it. 

Even after the death of Rasoulallah, the Ummah was 10s of thousands of people but with no leader ? If a store can't function without a leader what about a group made of 10s of thousands ? 

This point goes against you not us. Your twelfth imam doesn't benifit anyone in this ummah in terms of political or religious matters. A religious community with a leader who is absent, doesn't benifit in terms of political and religious matters is same as a religious community with no leader. Also, he don't have any excuse in doing so.

 

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

Rasoulallah left very clear and explicit instructions about who was to lead the Ummah after him

There is no proof of this.

 

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

As the saying goes 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes'. The stupid prizes that we won, as an Ummah, because we played this game are the Ummayads, The Abbasids, The Ottomans, and more recently ISIS and the various Arab dictators of the present day.

Sunni caliphate system gave us people like abu bakr and umar whose leadership qualities are even attested by the kuffar. As far as ummayads and others, then even though they have bad deeds, they still benifitted islam in many ways. Islam spread around the globe and what not. What does your imamah give. Nothing. That's why you are left with wilayah family which is basically sunni caliphate. Shia knew that their version of imamah just sounds good instead of benifitting the ummah.

[123xo]

@Qadri_01 How can you take those who killed the household of the prophet as leaders ? Like where's the logic in that???! They literally killed his bloodline and tortured his daughter how can you trust them leading the prophets ummah (ordinary believers) if they couldn't respect or tolerate those who were closest to him. 

[Qadri_01]

3 hours ago, 123xo said:

@Qadri_01 How can you take those who killed the household of the prophet as leaders ? Like where's the logic in that???! They literally killed his bloodline and tortured his daughter how can you trust them leading the prophets ummah (ordinary believers) if they couldn't respect or tolerate those who were closest to him. 

I can take those people as leaders because I don't believe they killed the prophet's household.