Sexual Desire in Men and Women

[Abu Hadi]

Bismillah Ta'la

This will probably get alot of view because of the title. 

I wanted to share some information I have gathered over the years on this topic as a result of personal experience and also research and feedback and queries I have gotten on this forum. This might offer some insights for the younger brothers and sisters, as the elders probably already know this, lol. I am in between being young and being elderly so I can see both sides of the issue. 

First, both men and women have sexual desire. About men, that is probably obvious, but may not be as obvious as regards to women, especially practicing muslim women. I have said this before regarding men but also for women this desire is the same in muslim vs non muslim women and the same in practicing muslima vs non practicing. The only difference is that practicing muslim women have haya (Islamic modesty) which prevents this desire from having very negative effects on themselves and others. 

There is a difference in this desire between men and women. To use a food analogy, this desire for women is one dish in a five course meal whereas for men it is ala carte. For a women's desire to be activated, she must enjoy the whole meal, the smell, the taste of the other dishes, and the look of the food. If all of those factors are there, then her sexual desire is much stronger than a mans. If those other things are not there, then the desire is less or non existent, when it comes to a particular meal (i.e. man). She is looking for a man who has a masculine presence, first and foremost. The masculine presence means the man has confidence (not arrogance) and carries himself with dignity. Just like looks are the #1 thing for most men in women, this masculine presence is the #1 thing for most women in men. 

There is a very good reason for this and the main reason has to do with how society has evolved over history. Women are physically weaker than men and so they cannot defend themselves against a man who is trying to hurt them / attack them without having someone to defend / protect them. When they are young, this is the father, but after they get married it is the husband. Survival dicates that the man must be able to protect her and her children from harm and danger. A man's confidence and how he carries himself tells the women and others that he is healthy and physically capable of defending himself and his wife / children against anyone who is trying to do them harm. I am not saying he has to be a bodybuilder or a martial arts expert (although that helps, lol) in order to fulfill this role but he has to have this presence about him even if he is physically not that strong. 

The second characteristic or dish is his manners and aklaq. Once he has shown that he has the masculine presence, i.e. that she is safe from others, she wants to be sure that her and her children are safe from him. How he talks, how respectful or non respectful he is. Does he say bad words to her, abuse her, etc. This goes hand in hand with the first issue and that is safety. She has to know that she will be safe with him. Different cultures have different thresholds and expressions for this but the concept is the same. Once she knows that he has that masculine presence and she will be safe with him, then we move to the third dish, which is provisions / sustenance. 

TBH, in the modern era, and especially in the West, this might not be as big of a deal as it used to be but most women want a guy who is financially ok enough to support her, even if she has her own job / career, she want the option of not having to work. She doesn't necessarily want a guy who is rich, but 'provision' is relative and is dependent on what kind a family she was raised in. If she is from a wealthy family this threshold will be different than if she is from a middle or lower class family (economically). 

The forth 'dish' is probably looks. This includes how he dresses, how he smells, and his general physical characteristics. The fifth is general personality and compatibility. Does this guy have the same interests as me, hobbies, political / religious views, etc. Are we roughly the same generation in terms of age, etc. 

If all those things are there, i.e. all the boxes are checked, then she is 'activiated' and she will be attracted to him, most likely. She might not act on it or ever say anything to the man, but it is there always in the background. If a guy has those things then he can get married relatively easily and it is a straightforward process. This is clue for the guys that if he is lacking any of those things he should do self improvement. If someone wants to know how to develop those things, I can probably post some advice on that and other brothers can also. It is a hierarchical list, if #1 and #2 aren't there then the process stops. The rest are relative to what she is used to seeing. 

For the sisters, let me tell you briefly how guys work, lol. If the guy doesn't know the girl, i.e. is seeing her across the room or meeting her for the first time, none of those things matter to him, except the looks part. If the looks are there, he is 'activated' and most women know this. The sisters who are ethically challenged use this as a 'hack' in order to get attention or for other reasons. That is why the hijab for women is different than the hijab for men, because men and women are different although they both have desire. In the society we live in today, men are constantly being 'hacked' for advertising and other purposes.

Many, and especially the younger brothers, are in a state of anguish most of the time because of this. If you're a sister and you have taqwa, you don't want to add to this anguish by not practicing proper hijab. There's not much we can do about it for the non muslim women. That's because in men this is a physiological reaction to a stimulus rather than a psychological reaction, as it is in women. Actually in women it is also physiological but the physiological part is muted unless the other things are there. For men it is never muted. Once activated, it is active, physiologically, for a certain period of time, depending on the man and the circumstances. As men get older, they learn how to control this reaction and if a guy is a mumin you will never have any clue that he is 'activated'. That is because of self control, not because of anything physical. 

So hopefully this gives the brothers and sisters some insights. 

 

Edited February 21 by Abu Hadi

[In Gods Name]

Bismillah,

Salam,

I have to say i largely agree with this. The masculine presence part is very important - this is what women maybe mean by 'confidence' but it actually isn't just fake confidence and can be a bit deeper than that. It can be a mix of size, aura, aggressiveness balanced, assertiveness,  body etc

[In Gods Name]

9 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

For the sisters, let me tell you briefly how guys work, lol. If the guy doesn't know the girl, i.e. is seeing her across the room or meeting her for the first time, none of those things matter to him, except the looks part. If the looks are there, he is 'activated' and most women know this. The sisters who are ethically challenged use this as a 'hack' in order to get attention or for other reasons. That is why the hijab for women is different than the hijab for men, because men and women are different although they both have desire. In the society we live in today, men are constantly being 'hacked' for advertising and other purposes. Many, and especially the younger brothers, are in a state of anguish most of the time because of this. That's because in men this is a physiological reaction to a stimulus rather than a psychological reaction, as it is in women. Actually in women it is also physiological but the physiological part is muted unless the other things are there. For men it is never muted. Once activated, it is active, physiologically, for a certain period of time, depending on the man and the circumstances. As men get older, they learn how to control this reaction and if a guy is a mumin you will never have any clue that he is 'activated'. That is because of self control, not because of anything physical. 

 

This part is very true. No matter how pious a guy may be, he is only suppressing it.  Looks matter to men majorly, and is the top thing on our list. Look at how much the make up, hair and dress industry is worth?

Look (don't look it's pure Fitnah) at how the Jahil women on TV dress, Nauzubillah , compared to their male counter parts who cover up in suits even on serious shows?

Edited February 21 by In Gods Name

[SO SOLID SHIA]

12 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

For the sisters, let me tell you briefly how guys work, lol. If the guy doesn't know the girl, i.e. is seeing her across the room or meeting her for the first time, none of those things matter to him, except the looks part. If the looks are there, he is 'activated' and most women know this

 

I only notice piety and good manners

 

 

[Abu Hadi]

I also wanted to tell sisters that don't worry if your not an 8,9,or 10 on the looks department. You can make up for it in other ways like being funny or having a good personality and knowing how to have a good conversation that makes the guy feel comfortable. This is a skill that many sisters have. 

You have to change your strategy though. You have to play the long game. You have to let the guy get to know you and u can't let anyone rush the process. What I said about how guys work is like that only on the beginning, at first sight. Over time, ie in the long term, there are other things that are important to guys like personality, honesty, Iman, integrity, etc but he has to get to know you to find out those things. This is why I think that the marriage process should not be rushed like it is in many communities and brothers and sisters should take as much time as they need to get to know each other so long as they stay within the halal or course

[Maisam Haider]

On 2/22/2024 at 1:05 AM, Abu Hadi said:

If all of those factors are there, then her sexual desire is much stronger than a mans. If those other things are not there, then the desire is less or non existent, when it comes to a particular meal (i.e. man)

A woman can have a non-existent sexual desire but the points that you have mentioned are not the only reasons why some women are like that. 

There are some women, even married ones, who due to certain factors may become asexual to the extent that just like little children, they have absolutely no sexual desire, no need, no sexual urge at all. They are completely free from the need to have sex. Not just that, they actually consider sexual activity as something undesirable, something they wish to run away from. It is something they want to escape from and wish to never engage in it at any point in their lives. For them, sexual activity is nothing more than a big burden, a hardship, a difficulty and a problem they wish to get rid of. Their biggest happiness is that their husbands do not compel or even request them to have any sexual activity. Even the thought of romance or a gentle physical touch will cause them mental trauma and emotional hardship. 

However, the interesting point is that such women may still be very happy with their marriages otherwise. Their lack of sexual desire isn't because they dislike or hate their husbands. Rather, they love their husbands but that love is only emotional and purely psychological - it has no physical shape. These women are "touch-me-not" wives who are otherwise very caring and loving for their husbands, but will never agree to have sexual relations with them at any point in their married lives. 

Of course, Islamically a wife isn't allowed to be like this. But sometimes, an asexual wife can bring her own Islamic justification to defend herself. She may claim that although a wife is obligated to provide sexual pleasure to her husband, if it is an unbearable difficulty for her, then she has the right to refuse. She can use this leeway in the rule to say that sexual activity gives her some sort of physical or mental trauma or she just simply is never in the mood for it to the point that having sex will cause her unbearable difficulty. This way she can justify to herself that she is not going against Islamic law by persistently and consistently denying sex to her husband. 

In such cases, a wife may wish to reach a deal with her husband. The thing is that Islamically, she has only two obligations in marriage. First, to provide sexual intercourse and second to not leave the house without permission of her husband. Besides this, the wife is not obligated to do anything else. It is not her legal duty to do household chores, like cooking, washing, cleaning, doing grocery etc. Now, the wife can state that she is ready to do all the household chores and will manage all the domestic responsibilities, but in return for this "beyond the call of duty" work that she will do, she demands that the husband gives up his right for sexual intercourse. 

The woman may say that all these other domestic responsibilities are so physically draining, that it is not possible for her to then go on and engage in further physical activity in the form of sexual intercourse. So, she would prefer to continue doing these household chores than to have any sex, which she finds a great burden and a big difficulty. 

There can be many reasons why some women become asexual to this level. Professional medical and psychiatric help and marriage counseling can have benefit but they will only work if the woman agrees for it. If she herself is completely happy and satisfied and contended with her sexless married life, then she will feel no need to seek professional advice. 

To a lesser extent, sometimes certain lifetime situations may push a woman into asexuality. Pregnancy can be one such situation. Suppose a woman has normal sexual desire. She gets married and becomes pregnant. Then the hormonal changes in her body produce an effect on her that reduces her sexual desire to zero. This continues throughout the 9 months of pregnancy. Then for the next 2 years, the mother feeds her baby and her sexual desire still remains non-existent due to hormonal effects. After the child becomes 2, lactation has come to an end but the mother still needs another 2-3 years to regain her strength to the point that she even starts to imagine about sexual desire. 

During this 4 years long period, she does not allow her husband to have sexual intercourse even once and her islamic reason is that sexual activity is an unbearable difficulty for her. 

After 4 years, although she allows her husband to have sexual relations, it will be with the warning that if she gets pregnant again, it will mean another 4 years of sexless married life - which she demands that the husband should not complain about. 

If such a woman seeks professional advice or marriage counseling, it may help, but on occasions it may also do more harm than good. If a woman who has prolonged and complete loss of libido secondary to pregnancy/lactation, is reassured by her counselor that this reduction in sexual desire is very common and is observed frequently in pregnant ladies, then she would be mentally encouraged to go on leading a sexless married life. She would instead blame her husband for having a sexual desire too high that he demands to have sex, even though he hasn't had it once in last 3-4 years. 

Islamically, the man has the right to divorce a wife who is asexual to this level. But divorce or getting a second wife / doing mutah may not be practical or possible options for the man. In this case, he would have to learn to live a married life that is devoid of sexual relations and will need to train himself to be able to stay chaste and sin-free when there is no chance of any opportunity to have sexual relations with wife. 

What these scenarios show is that sex within marriage should not be taken for granted. Not everyone who gets married is able to have sexual relations. Those who are able to do so, should be thankful to Allah that not only are they married, they have spouses who are willing to have sexual relations. 

Edited February 23 by Maisam Haider

[Meedy]

With women have no sexual desires, I think they should at least try and even a little sex every now and then, may still keep men happy. It's sort of love affection and its needed.  Maybe I am wrong with what I said.

[Uni Student]

On 2/21/2024 at 2:05 PM, Abu Hadi said:

If a guy has those things then he can get married relatively easily and it is a straightforward process. This is clue for the guys that if he is lacking any of those things he should do self improvement. If someone wants to know how to develop those things, I can probably post some advice on that and other brothers can also. It is a hierarchical list, if #1 and #2 aren't there then the process stops.

What advice do you have for the brothers on the younger side who either have all those things or are close to having them and working on it, but still having trouble?
 

I personally would like to think I’m mostly solid on most of what you mentioned, confidence, deen, taking care of myself physically, etc. The only area I’m lacking is “provisions”. I feel like I am overlooked because of not having an actual degree behind my name (working on it) even though I have completed a technical/vocational program and earn a decent income for my age.

[In Gods Name]

27 minutes ago, Uni Student said:

What advice do you have for the brothers on the younger side who either have all those things or are close to having them and working on it, but still having trouble?
 

I personally would like to think I’m mostly solid on most of what you mentioned, confidence, deen, taking care of myself physically, etc. The only area I’m lacking is “provisions”. I feel like I am overlooked because of not having an actual degree behind my name (working on it) even though I have completed a technical/vocational program and earn a decent income for my age.

Consider a sister who is also a Uni student. But be certain - i.e. how does she deal with conflict, anger etc, and ensure it is kept completely halal.

[Abu Hadi]

On 2/22/2024 at 9:02 PM, Maisam Haider said:

A woman can have a non-existent sexual desire but the points that you have mentioned are not the only reasons why some women are like that. 

There are some women, even married ones, who due to certain factors may become asexual to the extent that just like little children, they have absolutely no sexual desire, no need, no sexual urge at all. They are completely free from the need to have sex. Not just that, they actually consider sexual activity as something undesirable, something they wish to run away from. It is something they want to escape from and wish to never engage in it at any point in their lives. For them, sexual activity is nothing more than a big burden, a hardship, a difficulty and a problem they wish to get rid of. Their biggest happiness is that their husbands do not compel or even request them to have any sexual activity. Even the thought of romance or a gentle physical touch will cause them mental trauma and emotional hardship. 

However, the interesting point is that such women may still be very happy with their marriages otherwise. Their lack of sexual desire isn't because they dislike or hate their husbands. Rather, they love their husbands but that love is only emotional and purely psychological - it has no physical shape. These women are "touch-me-not" wives who are otherwise very caring and loving for their husbands, but will never agree to have sexual relations with them at any point in their married lives. 

Of course, Islamically a wife isn't allowed to be like this. But sometimes, an asexual wife can bring her own Islamic justification to defend herself. She may claim that although a wife is obligated to provide sexual pleasure to her husband, if it is an unbearable difficulty for her, then she has the right to refuse. She can use this leeway in the rule to say that sexual activity gives her some sort of physical or mental trauma or she just simply is never in the mood for it to the point that having sex will cause her unbearable difficulty. This way she can justify to herself that she is not going against Islamic law by persistently and consistently denying sex to her husband. 

In such cases, a wife may wish to reach a deal with her husband. The thing is that Islamically, she has only two obligations in marriage. First, to provide sexual intercourse and second to not leave the house without permission of her husband. Besides this, the wife is not obligated to do anything else. It is not her legal duty to do household chores, like cooking, washing, cleaning, doing grocery etc. Now, the wife can state that she is ready to do all the household chores and will manage all the domestic responsibilities, but in return for this "beyond the call of duty" work that she will do, she demands that the husband gives up his right for sexual intercourse. 

The woman may say that all these other domestic responsibilities are so physically draining, that it is not possible for her to then go on and engage in further physical activity in the form of sexual intercourse. So, she would prefer to continue doing these household chores than to have any sex, which she finds a great burden and a big difficulty. 

There can be many reasons why some women become asexual to this level. Professional medical and psychiatric help and marriage counseling can have benefit but they will only work if the woman agrees for it. If she herself is completely happy and satisfied and contended with her sexless married life, then she will feel no need to seek professional advice. 

To a lesser extent, sometimes certain lifetime situations may push a woman into asexuality. Pregnancy can be one such situation. Suppose a woman has normal sexual desire. She gets married and becomes pregnant. Then the hormonal changes in her body produce an effect on her that reduces her sexual desire to zero. This continues throughout the 9 months of pregnancy. Then for the next 2 years, the mother feeds her baby and her sexual desire still remains non-existent due to hormonal effects. After the child becomes 2, lactation has come to an end but the mother still needs another 2-3 years to regain her strength to the point that she even starts to imagine about sexual desire. 

During this 4 years long period, she does not allow her husband to have sexual intercourse even once and her islamic reason is that sexual activity is an unbearable difficulty for her. 

After 4 years, although she allows her husband to have sexual relations, it will be with the warning that if she gets pregnant again, it will mean another 4 years of sexless married life - which she demands that the husband should not complain about. 

If such a woman seeks professional advice or marriage counseling, it may help, but on occasions it may also do more harm than good. If a woman who has prolonged and complete loss of libido secondary to pregnancy/lactation, is reassured by her counselor that this reduction in sexual desire is very common and is observed frequently in pregnant ladies, then she would be mentally encouraged to go on leading a sexless married life. She would instead blame her husband for having a sexual desire too high that he demands to have sex, even though he hasn't had it once in last 3-4 years. 

Islamically, the man has the right to divorce a wife who is asexual to this level. But divorce or getting a second wife / doing mutah may not be practical or possible options for the man. In this case, he would have to learn to live a married life that is devoid of sexual relations and will need to train himself to be able to stay chaste and sin-free when there is no chance of any opportunity to have sexual relations with wife. 

What these scenarios show is that sex within marriage should not be taken for granted. Not everyone who gets married is able to have sexual relations. Those who are able to do so, should be thankful to Allah that not only are they married, they have spouses who are willing to have sexual relations. 

The women who do this have no taqwa. Religion to them is just something they play with and use when it's convenient for them and when it's not they discard it like a piece of garbage. I know there are women like this but it is incorrect to call them with the title ' mumina'

If a women is truly asexual, there is an underlying reason for it. There is something in her past which is making her that way because this is not something natural in women. It is most likely a reaction to some sort of severe trauma or abuse of a sexual nature. At the same time she cannot use this as an excuse to deny her husband his rights. She needs to work on overcoming this issue thru therapy or some other way

The most common reason women deny their husband sex is to manipulate them. That is why the rule is there, to protect husbands from being used by their wife in this way. 

Edited February 24 by Abu Hadi

[In Gods Name]

3 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The women who do this have no taqwa. Religion to them is just something they play with and use when it's convenient for them and when it's not they discard it like a piece of garbage. I know there are women like this but it is incorrect to call them with the title ' mumina'

If a women is truly asexual, there is an underlying reason for it. There is something in her past which is making her that way because this is not something natural in women. It is most likely a reaction to some sort of severe trauma or abuse of a sexual nature. At the same time she cannot use this as an excuse to deny her husband his rights. She needs to work on overcoming this issue thru therapy or some other way

The most common reason women deny their husband sex is to manipulate them. That is why the rule is there, to protect husbands from being used by their wife in this way. 

I also want to add, some women rush into marriage, are pressured into it, or go with the initial buzz and honeymoon phase of the wedding and all the newness, and they lose emotional interest and also physical interest.

I have also known brothers who have had pure intentions, and whose mental health has been wrecked by their spouse turning out to prefer women. Decent men, who have been completely broken and for a period went partly astray due to this. 

[Maisam Haider]

15 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

If a women is truly asexual, there is an underlying reason for it. There is something in her past which is making her that way because this is not something natural in women.

Yes, but there can be cases where it is something not in her past, but in the present. She may never have had any history of sexual assault but still becomes asexual. Yes, that's not natural but it happens.

Pregnancy, lactation, physical illness, side effects of certain medications etc. etc. can produce changes in a woman's sexual desire which can rarely go to extreme level - to the point that the woman becomes asexual.

The Islamic rule is clear that if the woman faces unbearable difficulty, she has the right to refuse intimacy. What is not clear is who will decide what level of difficulty is considered "unbearable". It is a very subjective feeling.

Question: If a wife claims that sexual intercourse is always an unbearable difficulty for her, does Islamic law give the husband the authority to himself decide that it is not unbearable for her? If not, then can the husband still decide that the woman is not a mominah? 

[Abu Hadi]

If a women is physically able to fulfill this duty but it is a hardship, and she refuses saying 'it is too difficult', this is the same to me as a man who is physically able to work but says working is 'too difficult'. Now what would you say about a man, who is obligated under Sharia to support his family financially but doesn't do it with the excuse that 'it's too difficult' even though he is physically able to work ? Men go thru alot, alot of hardship related to supporting their family and working, some much more than others. They have to study for years and years, constantly update their skills, some have to change careers, some have to travel and are away from their family for long periods of time. Some have jobs that are actually physically dangerous, some have to work long hours, some have to work in jobs that they don't enjoy or actually hate, etc. None of these are excuses not to work, and the man must bear the difficulties patiently, not because of his wife, but to obey Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and this is jihad for a man. 

The jihad of a women is different and fulfilling this duty toward her husband even though she has to bear difficulties to do this is part of that. For some women, it is not a jihad (struggle in the way of God) and they actually enjoy it, more or less, and I think this covers most women. For some, it is a struggle. It is the same for a man with earning a living, for some men earning a living is not difficult because they got lucky for whatever reason, they started a successful business that kept growing, they have family or other connections to get into a profitable business or profitable industry that stayed stable throughout their career, etc. For others, earning a living is a great struggle. That is part of the life of this dunya. Everyone who is mumin/a does their jihad, in one way or another. 

Edited February 25 by Abu Hadi

[123xo]

@Abu Hadi YES YES YES !!! I totally agree it's like you're describing him in every word and every sentence you have typed.... especially the meal part cause that man is a snackkkkk i mean a whole course fine dine type of meal. Looooord have mercy.

On a serious note, he is very good looking however it's not his looks that makes him so irresistible but as Abu Hadi said how a man carries himself around is very important, the way he communicates just pure Alpha male type of a man without trying too hard or faking it, for him it's all natural it's like he was born to be marvellous. 

Guys take notes please! He is super confident, easy to communicate with, HEALTHY mentally and physically, does not manipulate or play silly games, very direct and clear, career driven, a high value man isn't a sleaze or a scumbag, he is super humble too, religious (+++++) and above all he doesn't walk around trying to impress this and that he walks around carrying himself with dignity, respect and purpose

I've seen so many what any other woman would consider as an attractive good looking guy but honestly they never reach that level of charisma and attractiveness of this man. And that's because of the way they carry themselves, akhlaq and personality. They may be high on the looks scale but their character and personality is a complete turn off which in return makes them less appealing( in my eyes) not sure about other women though, some women really don't care about any of that as i have seen so many settle for anything.  

Now for provision, you are right women nowadays don't really care about how much a man earns because most women now work too and a lot even  have their own businesses that earn more than your regular 9-5 guy. 
what's important is that he is working, has a career and a goal regardless of how much he earns and isn't lazy or looking for easy ways to make money or unlawful sources of income. 

Edited February 26 by 123xo

[kadhim]

On 2/21/2024 at 3:05 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Many, and especially the younger brothers, are in a state of anguish most of the time because of this. If you're a sister and you have taqwa, you don't want to add to this anguish by not practicing proper hijab. There's not much we can do about it for the non muslim women. That's because in men this is a physiological reaction to a stimulus rather than a psychological reaction, as it is in women

Euuhhh. Listen. I get what you’re saying. I get where you’re coming from.I was a bothered 18 year old once too. We all were. I get you’re not coming from a malicious or mal-intentioned place here. 

But I really think as dudes we have to stop talking like this. It doesn’t start out noxious but it just always ends up there. Yes, everyone has to make an effort at some reasonable level of modesty. But beyond the common sense basic expectations mostly everyone of whatever background believes in, it’s not cool to put this on women. Our crazy visual attraction and drive when we’re younger—that’s just part of our jihad. That’s just on us to handle. That’s our responsibility. We just need to accept that with grace and quit complaining. 

The problem with saying this sort of thing out loud, that women need to devote mental energy into men’s struggles at getting turned on, the problem is it never really ends. It’s not like there’s some fixed defined thing and a woman does that and they stop hearing about it. I see this all the time online, with Muslim dudes harassing women with arguments like this, and the problem is nothing is ever good enough. When women indulge this sort of thinking to some extent, the men just end up taking it farther. If she’s got her hijab, someone will bother her because her form is vaguely perceptible in her other clothes. She wears something baggy like an abaya or something, dudes will hone in on her face or eyes, and ask her to put on a niqab because her face is giving them problems. And then sometimes even that isn’t enough for them. “Your voice is too seductive sister. You should limit how much you talk because your beautiful voice makes me imagine everything else.” Eventually the “ask” becomes that women just disappear themselves from public. 

You give an inch to this mindset, eventually someone demands a mile. We need to stop saying these things and just quietly handle our ****. 

Edited February 28 by kadhim

[Abu Hadi]

10 hours ago, kadhim said:

Euuhhh. Listen. I get what you’re saying. I get where you’re coming from.I was a bothered 18 year old once too. We all were. I get you’re not coming from a malicious or mal-intentioned place here. 

But I really think as dudes we have to stop talking like this. It doesn’t start out noxious but it just always ends up there. Yes, everyone has to make an effort at some reasonable level of modesty. But beyond the common sense basic expectations mostly everyone of whatever background believes in, it’s not cool to put this on women. Our crazy visual attraction and drive when we’re younger—that’s just part of our jihad. That’s just on us to handle. That’s our responsibility. We just need to accept that with grace and quit complaining. 

The problem with saying this sort of thing out loud, that women need to devote mental energy into men’s struggles at getting turned on, the problem is it never really ends. It’s not like there’s some fixed defined thing and a woman does that and they stop hearing about it. I see this all the time online, with Muslim dudes harassing women with arguments like this, and the problem is nothing is ever good enough. When women indulge this sort of thinking to some extent, the men just end up taking it farther. If she’s got her hijab, someone will bother her because her form is vaguely perceptible in her other clothes. She wears something baggy like an abaya or something, dudes will hone in on her face or eyes, and ask her to put on a niqab because her face is giving them problems. And then sometimes even that isn’t enough for them. “Your voice is too seductive sister. You should limit how much you talk because your beautiful voice makes me imagine everything else.” Eventually the “ask” becomes that women just disappear themselves from public. 

You give an inch to this mindset, eventually someone demands a mile. We need to stop saying these things and just quietly handle our ****. 

You're saying we should stop talking about it because it's  'Euuhh' ? This is a scientific argument with scientific evidence behind it. Unfortunately, most of these full articles are behind paywalls, but here is an excerpt from a summary

In fact, research has shown females demonstrate far more stringent preferences than males for mates with good earning potential or higher education [11], particularly during the years of peak fertility [13, 14]. Males, in contrast, need only invest the time taken to copulate, which paucity of paternal investment implies the favoring of mates whose genetic fitness guarantees a maximum chance of offspring survival and reproduction.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133465/#pone.0250151.ref011

Your point is really 'weird'. 

'The problem with saying this sort of thing out loud, that women need to devote mental energy into men’s struggles at getting turned on'

Women don't need to devote any mental energy toward it. Noone is asking them to do that ? They need to practice proper hijab. Problem solved (for them because they are doing their part). At the same time, for some sisters, just telling them 'wear hijab' isn't enough for them, they want to understand 'why' they should wear it. So this is some of the 'why', that's it. 

[In Gods Name]

11 hours ago, kadhim said:

Euuhhh. Listen. I get what you’re saying. I get where you’re coming from.I was a bothered 18 year old once too. We all were. I get you’re not coming from a malicious or mal-intentioned place here. 

But I really think as dudes we have to stop talking like this. It doesn’t start out noxious but it just always ends up there. Yes, everyone has to make an effort at some reasonable level of modesty. But beyond the common sense basic expectations mostly everyone of whatever background believes in, it’s not cool to put this on women. Our crazy visual attraction and drive when we’re younger—that’s just part of our jihad. That’s just on us to handle. That’s our responsibility. We just need to accept that with grace and quit complaining. 

The problem with saying this sort of thing out loud, that women need to devote mental energy into men’s struggles at getting turned on, the problem is it never really ends. It’s not like there’s some fixed defined thing and a woman does that and they stop hearing about it. I see this all the time online, with Muslim dudes harassing women with arguments like this, and the problem is nothing is ever good enough. When women indulge this sort of thinking to some extent, the men just end up taking it farther. If she’s got her hijab, someone will bother her because her form is vaguely perceptible in her other clothes. She wears something baggy like an abaya or something, dudes will hone in on her face or eyes, and ask her to put on a niqab because her face is giving them problems. And then sometimes even that isn’t enough for them. “Your voice is too seductive sister. You should limit how much you talk because your beautiful voice makes me imagine everything else.” Eventually the “ask” becomes that women just disappear themselves from public. 

You give an inch to this mindset, eventually someone demands a mile. We need to stop saying these things and just quietly handle our ****. 

Salam,

In all honesty, even among my historic non-Muslim friends, many of whom are educated and decent people, there's a general consensus: men are far more visual, and no matter how shy, or pious, or decent a guy might seem, men have a very powerful response to physical stimuli i.e. women. Even from a biological perspective it makes sense - men only need to spread their genes and that doesn't take long, whereas women bear the consequences so are far less visual and look for far more substance. For our survival and to spread our genes, we only need to visually select the women who we are generally programmed to be attracted to for this purpose from a purely biological point of view, and that is an extremely powerful biological reality. If society can not regulate that, and form rules and laws, it's chaos - and that's what is happening in todays world.

Nobody has any right to harass women - in fact, we men shouldn't really even be talking to sisters about this directly because it might break Hijab, and it is not our place. However, when it comes to openly just giving a talk , or writing a post, or educating other men so we as men can do our part, i am completely behind this.

A lot of the western nations have woken up. People are fed up of Woke-ism when it comes to gender, gender roles, and gender identity. Men and women are different, and if society is not kept in balance, you find utter chaos you see now in the West, where men in droves are absolutely checking out of the entire mating and dating process, and there's a general view that it is far more difficult now to find a decent woman who wants to settle down, who wants to raise a family (doesn't mean not working) and who doesn't have a trillion option or opportunity for free validation and endless mating opportunities online.

Yes, a balance must be struck, but if you sit down with a lot of non-Muslim men, especially between 20-40 you'll find many generally are starting to appreciate what Islam has done when it comes to the genders. 

Edited February 28 by In Gods Name

[kadhim]

^ You two are really going out of your way to miss the point here.

You’re not responding to the actual objection at all. You’re both just skating around talking about other separate things. 

You’re responding as if the objection was to the entire post, whereas my objection was to one specific sentence.

You two want to take a shot at responding to what was actually said? 

Let me rephrase it more briefly:

It’s fine to say to everyone, “let’s all make an effort to practice modesty because it’s a responsibility of everyone together.” It’s not helpful to say, “ladies, do this because you need to help the boys be less h***y.” It doesn’t really work like that. The boys will invent a reason to be h***y even if she follows all the rules. Everyone should still make their reasonable effort to contribute their part nevertheless. But the mindset of “follow the rules so that the boys will be less bothered and lecherous” is a myth.

The boys will be less lecherous only if the boys make the effort to be less lecherous. 

Edited February 28 by kadhim

[123xo]

48 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

Women don't need to devote any mental energy toward it. Noone is asking them to do that ? They need to practice proper hijab. Problem solved (for them because they are doing their part). At the same time, for some sisters, just telling them 'wear hijab' isn't enough for them, they want to understand 'why' they should wear it. So this is some of the 'why', that's it. 

You can wear "proper hijab" (not abaya type of proper but no skin showing type of proper) and still get attention and get cat called from guys. So the root of the problem is men and their raging hormones. In my teen years i used to not mind it and find it kinda interesting to get so much attention but now in my 20s i just feel degraded when guys stare or say something to me while walking i also feel super guilty it's like i'm the problem not them but truth is men have to practice proper self control, we can't always blame it on the way a woman dresses. 
 

Ps: not a feminist. 
 

Tip for the guys!!! If you go somewhere and see a female that you're attracted too please DON'T check her out or look at her !!! Because that way you'll grab her attention more cause she's used to having guys look at her and admire her and when we see a guy that doesn't give us the attention or validation like the rest wallahi naturally we get attracted to that guy. So be him! Just trying to help a brother out xo 

Edited February 28 by 123xo

[In Gods Name]

40 minutes ago, kadhim said:

^ You two are really going out of your way to miss the point here.

You’re not responding to the actual objection at all. You’re both just skating around talking about other separate things. 

You’re responding as if the objection was to the entire post, whereas my objection was to one specific sentence.

You two want to take a shot at responding to what was actually said? 

Salam brother,

Please let me know if this is what you intended insha Allah.

What my understanding is, you understand the biological differences. However, men essentially won't just stop because a woman is wearing Hijab, the drive is far too powerful for that alone to be a deterrent. Forgive me for being a bit too graphic, but this is all for the Deen of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), men will even idolise those parts of women that the Hijab doesn't cover, even some might even idolise a woman who covers. 

However, if we get to a point where women observe Hijab and recognise a biological reality, and i mean proper Hijab, social norms and barriers exist, then truly Allah has commanded the believers to lower their Gaze. One can't fault a woman who does everything in their power - because there will still be indecent men there.

This is why Hijab is a mutual effort, man and woman, and on a societal level there needs to be a culture inculcated in both groups. 

The focus perhaps on women more than men is, if the visual stimuli isn't dealt with in a modest manner in terms of a purely biological point of view, it's honestly going to fail before it starts societally to keep morality in place between the genders.

Consider that while men do need to observe their part , why even non-Muslims realise the raw biological power of stimuli.

The reality is, if society largely observed hijab physical and non-physical, we'd be focusing more on the men in our criticisms.

 

Edited February 28 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

42 minutes ago, kadhim said:

It’s fine to say to everyone, “let’s all make an effort to practice modesty because it’s a responsibility of everyone together.” It’s not helpful to say, “ladies, do this because you need to help the boys be less h***y.” It doesn’t really work like that. The boys will invent a reason to be h***y even if she follows all the rules. Everyone should still make their reasonable effort to contribute their part nevertheless. But the mindset of “follow the rules so that the boys will be less bothered and lecherous” is a myth.

 

You aren't wrong - and this is exactly the point. Men will find almost any part of a woman attractive, especially even parts she leaves uncovered or accentuates, even if she wears the Hijab. However, not wearing the Hijab and displaying extremely powerful biological stimuli will make matters much worse.

While the problem will exist hijab or not, it is a more more holistic and biological rational approach, to moderate that stimuli and also - to what you are saying - enforce and encourage a dignified social environment, where men respect women. One can not be, on a wider societal level, be possible without the other.

 

[Abu Hadi]

1 hour ago, 123xo said:

You can wear "proper hijab" (not abaya type of proper but no skin showing type of proper) and still get attention and get cat called from guys. So the root of the problem is men and their raging hormones. In my teen years i used to not mind it and find it kinda interesting to get so much attention but now in my 20s i just feel degraded when guys stare or say something to me while walking i also feel super guilty it's like i'm the problem not them but truth is men have to practice proper self control, we can't always blame it on the way a woman dresses. 
 

Ps: not a feminist. 
 

Tip for the guys!!! If you go somewhere and see a female that you're attracted too please DON'T check her out or look at her !!! Because that way you'll grab her attention more cause she's used to having guys look at her and admire her and when we see a guy that doesn't give us the attention or validation like the rest wallahi naturally we get attracted to that guy. So be him! Just trying to help a brother out xo 

You have a good point but let me just make one additional point. In the Holy Quran when Allah,(swa) is speaking of the concept of physical hijab for women, the Quran uses the phrase (this is the translation) 'so that they might be known and not harmed'. 

This is because Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not saying 'They will be known and not harmed' in the definite sense but leaving open the possibility that they might still be harmed. At the same time we need to look at this comparitively. We have the example of non Muslim women who don't wear hijab. If u read the statistics on this, you see that for non Muslim women who live in Western societies, this harm is not only a possibility but you could even say it's inevitable if u look at the statistics 

I could post specific ones but you probably already know that 30 to 40% of women in the US have experienced rape or sexual assault before the age of 18. From my own life experiences before I reverted I can tell you that this is true. Of the women I knew or were close to in that 'world' almost all of them had an experience regarding this. It was rare to find one that didn't. .

A hijabi who also practices the aklaqi hijab will have a greatly reduced risk of this happening vs a women who doesnt make this part of her life. That is what the ayat is saying. Comments and cat calls are one thing and I know this is annoying but is this ' harm'. To me harm means this experience has long lasting or lifetime effects on how someone views the world and other people, especially in regards to this men. Women who were assaulted and had their dignity violated in that way never really feel safe around men and have trust issues that will probably last a lifetime and can affect all or most of their future relationships. That is what I mean by 'harm'. So there is a difference. 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Abu Hadi said:

If u read the statistics on this, you see that for non Muslim women who live in Western societies, this harm is not only a possibility but you could even say it's inevitabl

Exactly.

Look at the MeToo movement and the tens if not hundreds of thousands of women reporting unintended attention, harassment etc. Obviously this exists in Muslims countries but i'd argue it's far more in non-Muslim countries.

[Maisam Haider]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:12 PM, Abu Hadi said:

For some women, it is not a jihad (struggle in the way of God) and they actually enjoy it, more or less, and I think this covers most women. For some, it is a struggle

There is a tradition from the Prophet (s), that when a man goes into his wife, it is like he is going into battlefield for jihad. 

(Not verbatim). 

I think this saying must have some very deep rooted meaning which I am not able to understand to its fullest extent. Sexual intercourse is equivalent to Jihad. This may mean that the reward for a husband-wife having sex is equivalent to the one who goes into battlefield for jihad. But could it mean that for some people, having sex may be as difficult.... and as big a hardship as it is to go into battlefield? Although it is not meant to be like that, if a person finds it so difficult to do sex but he/she does it because he/she is duty-bound to fulfill the needs of his/her partner, then could it equate to being as hard as doing jihad. Is this one meaning of the tradition? 

Or it could mean that staying chaste (even after getting married) is so difficult and hard and requires so much effort and self-control and self-restraint to limit the sexual desire only and only to what is permissible, that halal sex becomes equivalent to jihad ? 

That's because the one who indulges in Haram means to fulfill his sexual needs after getting married would not feel any urge to go to his wife. So, if he is having sexual intercourse with his wife, it already means that he has managed to suppress his sexual desire to such a great extent that he has limited it just and just to his wife only - and that is so extremely difficult, that Islam considers it nothing less than participating in battle. 

That's why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said...the greatest worship is to limit the sexual desire to that which is allowed --- equivalent to jihad?