Shia scholars: Ghadir Khumm is indirect , not direct evidence of Ali as

[In Gods Name]

I always felt Ghadir Khumm was a slam dunk and clear evidence. However, a number of very high ranking scholars claim this actually is not clear but more indirect evidence.

The question we have to ask ourselves is this: Why did the Prophet saw not clearly say: "Allah has commanded me to choose Ali as the divinely appointed Imam after me. You must all follow him as your leader after me".

Our own scholars have picked up on this.

 

Sharif Murtada stated:

وأما النص الخفي: فهو الذي ليس في صريحة لفظه النص بالامامة، وإنما ذلك في فحواه ومعناه، كخبر الغدير، وخبر تبوك

As for hidden text: that is the one in which text there is NO CLEAR indication to Imamah, but only in content and meaning, LIKE REPORT OF GHADIR AND REPORT OF TABUK. [“Rasail” vol 1, page 339]

Shia Scholar Muhaqiq al-Hilli, who was quoted by Ayatullah Ridha Ustadi in “Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399;400 :

 

الوجه الثاني : على إمامته فيجب أن يكون إماما.

أما النص عليه فقسمان جلي وخفي أما الجلي فما نقلته الشيعة خلفا عن سلف إلى النبي عليه السلام من نصه عليه بالامامة نصا لا يحتمل التأويل ….

وأما الخفي فقوله عليه السلام : (من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه وانصر من نصره واخذل من خذله وأدر الحق معه كيف ما دار.

وقوله عليه السلام : أنت مني بمنزلة هارون من موسى.

Second thing: Regarding his Imamah and that he has to be an Imam. What is regarding nass upon him, there are two types: clear and hidden. As for regarding clear one  – they are proofs been narrated by later shias from their pious ancestors, till messenger (alaihi salam), from his indications, that couldn’t be interpreted (in other way)……

As for HIDDEN proofs that is saying of alaihi salam: “To whom ever I am mawla, Ali is his mawla. O Allah befriend with the one who will befriend with him, and be enemy with the one who is his enemy. And give a victory to the one who will support him, and humiliate to the one who will humiliate him, and make truth with him, where ever he will be”.

And his saying – alayhi salam – “You are for me like Haroon to Moses”. [“Rasail al-Muhaqiq al-Hilli” p 399) 

[In Gods Name]

Furthermore, why did Imam Ali as when he was Caliph, not openly declare himself to be the divinely appointed Imam over the Ummah?

Why did he not publicly make speeches when opposing Abu Bakr initially?

Why did Imam Hussain as, when facing death himself, not clearly make speeches declaring himself, his older brother, and father as divinely appointed Imams?

Nor did any of the other Imams declare themselves to be Imams in a public, and unambigious way.

 

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I believe in following the Quran and Ahlulbayt, and in the Imams of ale Muhammed, i ask to learn and gain Yaqeen.

Edited February 13 by In Gods Name

[sunnism]

Duh. Everyone knows that ghadeer and manzilah is vague except the shia. 

[Abu Nur]

4 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

The question we have to ask ourselves is this: Why did the Prophet saw not clearly say: "Allah has commanded me to choose Ali as the divinely appointed Imam after me. You must all follow him as your leader after me".

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن ابيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة والفضيل بن يسار، وبكير بن أعين ومحمد بن مسلم وبريد بن معاوية وأبي الجارود جميعا عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: أمر الله عز وجل رسوله بولاية علي وأنزل عليه " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة " وفرض ولاية أولي الامر، فلم يدروا ما هي، فأمر الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله أن يفسر لهم الولاية، كما فسر لهم الصلاة، والزكاة والصوم والحج، فلما أتاه ذلك من الله، ضاق بذلك صدر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وتخوف أن يرتدوا عن دينهم وأن يكذبوه فضاق صدره وراجع ربه عز وجل فأوحى الله عز وجل إليه " يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس " فصدع بأمر الله تعالى ذكره فقام بولاية علي عليه السلام يوم غدير خم، فنادى الصلاة جامعة وأمر الناس أن يبلغ الشاهد الغائب. - قال عمر بن اذينة: قالوا جميعا غير أبي الجارود - وقال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: وكانت الفريضة تنزل بعد الفريضة الاخرى وكانت الولاية آخر الفرائض، فأنزل الله عز وجل " اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي " قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: يقول الله عز وجل: لا انزل عليكم بعد هذه فريضة، قد أكملت لكم الفرائض.

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir [a] said, about the Event of Ghadir:

Obedience to `Ali was an order from Allah to His Messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made obedience to the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad to interpret [and clarify] this obedience to them, just as he interpreted prayer (salat), alms-giving (zakat), fasting (sawm), and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord, so Allah inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah and declared the wilaya of `Ali on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent. And an obligation would be revealed one after the other; and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3) Allah said, "I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations." (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)

[Abu Nur]

3 hours ago, sunnism said:

Duh. Everyone knows that ghadeer and manzilah is vague except the shia. 

It is Vague only in Sunni Islam because it will make sense for your madhab, clear in Shia Islam, because we have authentic narrations that clearly describe the wilayat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Saying 'Everyone' is indicating that even non-muslims think it is vague too, which is not true.

Edited February 13 by Abu Nur

[sunnism]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

It is Vague only in Sunni Islam because it will make sense for your madhab, clear in Shia Islam, because we have authentic narrations that clearly describe the wilayat of Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Saying 'Everyone' is indicating that even non-muslims think it is vague too, which is not true.

Sure you do have narrations which explicitly say ali is the caliph. We are talking about man kunto maula alone. It is unexplicit. 

[Abu Nur]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:49 AM, sunnism said:

Sure you do have narrations which explicitly say ali is the caliph. We are talking about man kunto maula alone. It is unexplicit. 

It is not unexplicit in our narrations because we have details about the event such that it lacks from your narrations, making man kunto maula vague. In our narrations, anyone can derive that this event was to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as successor of the Prophet (saws) and not telling few people who argued with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be his friend.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam related thread

 

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:16 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is not unexplicit in our narrations because we have details about the event such that it lacks from your narrations, making man kunto maula vague. In our narrations, anyone can derive that this event was to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as successor of the Prophet (saws) and not telling few people who argued with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be his friend.

Even in Sunni narrations it's not really vague. The Shaykh Hassan bin Farhan al-Maliki showed that the portion that is agreed upon by both sides indicates clearly towards appointment of leadership. 

As for the claim with Yemen and that it was due to an argument with its people, then it should be noted that at Ghadir Khumm the people of Yemen had already returned and that this argument was first brought up by Ibn Taymiyya.

As for earlier Sunni scholars: They usually regarded this Hadith as a proof for the high station of Imam 'Ali bin Abi Talib (peace be upon him) and also a proof against Nasibis.

That which confused the Sunnis scholars from reaching the obvious and correct conclusion regarding this incident are all the other Ahadith that highlight the high station of the Shaykhayn, so that they ended up thinking that all four Khulafa had a similar station and right towards leadership. These other Ahadith were mostly made up by those near to Bani Umayya in order to neutralize the established narrations concerning the Prince of the Believers (peace be upon him). 

[In Gods Name]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:16 AM, Abu Nur said:

It is not unexplicit in our narrations because we have details about the event such that it lacks from your narrations, making man kunto maula vague. In our narrations, anyone can derive that this event was to appoint Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as successor of the Prophet (saws) and not telling few people who argued with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) to be his friend.

The issue here is, Hadith al-Ghadir and Hadith at-Thaqalayn are both muttawatir and mass transmitted.

There shouldn’t be a version with something new or spectacular, and if we look deeper, these versions come from dubious sectarian elements, weak narrators or are in themselves Khabar al-Wahid.

For humanity, what is Muttawatir and transmitted across the sects is what surely must be regarded as Hujjah.