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Order of superiority according to shi'ites

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10 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

To claim that if it wasn't for Sayeda Fatima, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not have created Prophet saw or Ali as is laughable.

Once again , not only is is utterly odd, what is the primary source and what is the chain of narrators?

lol, You rarely use your intellect. Although I asked you about the last part first but you should have read the hadith from the beginning to come to any conclusion about the last part. The best this hadith can explain is the unity of the anwar of these blessed personalities، the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) انهم مني و انا منهم، why is there و انا منهم ?  For your type of mindset, انهم مني should suffice lol.

 

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17 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Look at how low the standards of evidence have dropped.

What evidence?? I gave you a different hadith mentioning the discussion between God & Ibrahim (عليه السلام), mentioning the Aimmah as lights. 

Do you really don't recognize your Imams as divine lights? Then what do you think of the verse;

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِؤُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه

What وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه could mean for you? That na'udobillah, God is imperfect? 

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14 minutes ago, Inspector said:

lol, You rarely use your intellect. Although I asked you about the last part first but you should have read the hadith from the beginning to come to any conclusion about the last part. The best this hadith can explain is the unity of the anwar of these blessed personalities، the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) انهم مني و انا منهم، why is there و انا منهم ?  For your type of mindset, انهم مني should suffice lol.

 

what is the primary source and what is the chain of narrators?

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7 minutes ago, Inspector said:

What evidence?? I gave you a different hadith mentioning the discussion between God & Ibrahim (عليه السلام), mentioning the Aimmah as lights. 

 

Using Ali b. Abi hamzah - a man who founded the Waqifi sect, is cursed by the Imams, is a fabricator of a new religion and a infamous liar. 

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10 minutes ago, Inspector said:

What evidence?? I gave you a different hadith mentioning the discussion between God & Ibrahim (عليه السلام), mentioning the Aimmah as lights. 

Do you really don't recognize your Imams as divine lights? Then what do you think of the verse;

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِؤُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه

What وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه could mean for you? That na'udobillah, God is imperfect? 

Put aside that Prophets of God, the family of the Prophet, very pious individuals can be created, metaphorical lights...

this does not justify shoehorning meaning into Quranic verses we have no authority to do so, claiming Sayeda Fatima is Laylatul Qadar, Ayatul Kursi etc

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5 hours ago, Inspector said:

lol, 

إِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي

Fatima سلام الله عليها is بضعة of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), she is among the ones for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said انهم مني و انا منهم. And she is the wife of successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the one who said this;

رُوِيَ عن الامام أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام أنه قال: " لَوْ كُشِفَ‏ [لِيَ‏] الْغِطَاءُ مَا ازْدَدْتُ يَقِيناً"

You are among the ones who are falling short in recognizing the divine signs. 

does this prove she is superior to any prophet, let alone the ulul azam prophets?

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2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

To claim that if it wasn't for Sayeda Fatima, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not have created Prophet saw or Ali as is laughable.

Once again , not only is is utterly odd, what is the primary source and what is the chain of narrators?

The alleged hadith has been exposed as a forgery by Ayatullah Zanjani

https://iqraonline.net/on-a-forged-hadith-if-it-werent-for-fatima-i-would-not-have-created-you-two/

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2 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The alleged hadith has been exposed as a forgery by Ayatullah Zanjani

https://iqraonline.net/on-a-forged-hadith-if-it-werent-for-fatima-i-would-not-have-created-you-two/

"But as should be obvious, offering any interpretation or deriving any specific matter on the basis of a ḥadīth is subsidiary to demonstrating the authenticity of the said ḥadīth. If we have reason to think a ḥadīth is forged, citing it as evidence is both impermissible and ethically dubious. This is especially the case here because the ḥadīth is being attributed to God. Failure to care about its authenticity also shows a strange disregard for the truth which reflects badly about the speaker who will shape the minds of his audience on matters which he fails to be even remotely certain of."

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15 hours ago, sunnism said:

None of this proves that she is better than ibrahim. Chose one, either imamate is the highest rank or not. If yes then ibrahim (عليه السلام) is better than her, if not then imamate is note the highest position

Sayeda Fatima (sa) is mother of infallible Imams & wife of infallible Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & daughter of infallible prophet Muhammad (pbu) also she has been infallible which passed test of Allah better than prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) also all infallible Imams have confirmed that she has superiority on them so therefore i believ to both of Imamate & superiority of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) over all prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu)

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It is pathetic that people are asking me to prove that Aimmah (عليه السلام) are انوار الله. There is a whole chapter in Al-Kafi about this:

باب أن الأئمة عليهم السلام نور الله عز وجل

And there are 5 ahadith in total in that chapter.

الحسين بن محمد، عن معلى بن محمد، عن علي بن مرداس قال: حدثنا صفوان ابن يحيى والحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي أيوب، عن أبي خالد الكابلي قال: سألت أبا جعفر عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل: " فآمنوا بالله ورسوله والنور الذي أنزلنا (2) " فقال: يا أبا خالد النور والله الأئمة من آل محمد صلى الله عليه وآله إلى يوم القيامة، وهم والله نور الله الذي أنزل، وهم والله نور الله في السماوات وفي الأرض، والله يا أبا خالد لنور الامام في قلوب المؤمنين أنور من الشمس المضيئة بالنهار، وهم والله ينورون قلوب المؤمنين، ويحجب الله عز وجل نورهم عمن يشاء فتضللهم قلوبهم، والله يا أبا خالد لا يحبنا عبد ويتولانا حتى يطهر الله قلبه ولا يطهر الله قلب عبد حتى يسلم لنا ويكون سلما لنا فإذا كان سلما لنا سلمه الله من شديد الحساب وآمنه من فزع يوم القيامة الأكبر.

There has been a tawatur of these sorts of reports throughout shi'i books of hadith;

أحمد بن إدریس، عن الحسین بن عبید الله، عن محمد بن الحسن وموسى بن عمر،
عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن محمد بن الفضیل، عن أبی الحسن علیه السلام قال: سألته عن قول الله تبارک وتعالى: " یریدون لیطفؤوا نور الله بأفواههم(8) " قال یریدون لیطفؤوا ولایة أمیر المؤمنین علیه السلام بأفواههم، قلت: قوله تعالى: " والله متم نوره " قال: یقول: والله متم الامامة والامامة هی النور وذلک قوله عزوجل: " آمنوا بالله ورسوله والنور الذی أنزلنا " قال: النور هو الامام.

Perhaps these so called shia don't even recite the Ziyarah of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in which we testify;

"أشهد أنك كنت نوراً في الأصلاب الشامخة"

In a long hadith, Sheikh Sadooq a.r mentioned this in one of his book;

في معاني الأخبار, حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، قال: حدثنا الحسن بن علي بن فضال، عن عبد الرحمن بن الحجاج، عن سدير الصيرفي, عن الصادق جعفر بن محمد، عن أبيه، عن جده عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: خُلق نور فاطمة صلوات الله وسلامه عليها قبل أن تخلق الارض والسماء.......

In his another book, the following hadith is also mentioned;

في الخصال, حدثنا أبو علي الحسن بن علي بن محمد العطار قال: حدثنا محمد بن علي بن إسماعيل بن الحسين بن القاسم بن الحسن بن زيد بن الحسن بن الحسن بن علي بن أبي طالب عليهم السلام قال: حدثنا علي بن محمد بن عامر النهاوندي, عن عمر وابن عبدوس المهندس قال: حدثنا هانئ بن المتوكل, عن محمد بن علي بن عياض بن عبد الله ابن أبي رافع, عن أبيه, عن جده, عن أبي أيوب الأنصاري قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: لما خلق الله عز وجل الجنة خلقها من نور العرش, ثم أخذ من ذلك النور فقذفه فأصابني ثلث النور, وأصاب فاطمة ثلث النور, وأصاب علياً وأهل بيته ثلث النور, فمن أصابه من ذلك النور اهتدى إلى ولاية آل محمد, ومن لم يصبه من ذلك النور ضل عن ولاية آل محمد

In his another book علل الشرائع, he recorded the following hadith؛

أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن معقل القرمسينى، عن محمد بن زيد  الجزري، عن إبراهيم بن إسحاق النهاوندي، عن عبد الله بن حماد، عن عمرو بن شمر، عن جابر، عن أبي عبد الله " ع " قال: قلت له لم سميت فاطمة الزهراء زهراء؟
فقال لان الله عز وجل خلقها من نور عظمته فلما أشرقت أضاءت السماوات والأرض بنورها وغشيت أبصار الملائكة وخرت الملائكة ساجدين وقالوا:
إلهنا وسيدنا ما لهذا النور فأوحى الله إليهم هذا نور من نوري أسكنته في سمائي خلقته من عظمتي أخرجه من صلب نبي من أنبيائي أفضله على جميع الأنبياء وأخرج من ذلك النور أئمة يقومون بامري يهدون إلى حقي واجعلهم خلفائي في أرضى بعد انقضاء وحيى

I have discussed several core shi'i matters with this group and found them lacking the ma'rifah of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) the way we shia have. They also have problems in accepting Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams as divine witnesses despite several clear verses points towards that fact.

Now coming back to providing evidence from primary sources as I have promised, unfortunately the saved versions with me are not opening, however I am able to collect the following references;

فرات قال: حدثنا محمد بن القاسم بن عبيد معنعنا:
عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام أنه قال: (إنا أنزلناه في ليلة القدر) الليلة فاطمة والقدر الله فمن عرف فاطمة حق معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر، وإما سميت فاطمة لان الخلق فطموا عن معرفتها

And

روى شرف الدين النجفي في كتابه تأويل الآيات عن محمد بن جمهور عن موسى بن بكر عن زرارة عن حمران عنه... وفيه: وأما قوله (خير من ألف شهر) يعني فاطمة في قوله تعالى (تنزل الملائكة والروح فيها) والملائكة في هذا الموضع المؤمنون الذين يملكون علم آل محمد (عليه السلام) والروح روح القدس وهي فاطمة (عليها السلام) (من كل أمر سلام) يقول: كل أمر سلمه (حتى مطلع الفجر) يعني حتى يقوم القائم (عليه السلام)

7 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The alleged hadith has been exposed as a forgery by Ayatullah Zanjani

lol, how many did he exposed? Fact is that there are plenty of these type of ahadith both in Sunni & Shi'i texts. While examining one these sort of reports,  “لو لا محمد (صلى الله عليه و سلم) ما خلقت أحدا من خلقي.”

The Sunni scholar declared this;

هذا الحديث بهذه الألفاظ ليس بثابت ولكن معناه صحيح ثابت من أحاديث أخر قال علي القاري في موضوعاته الكبير (754): حديث “لولاك لما خلقت الأفلاك” قال الصغاني : إنه موضوع كذا في الخلاصة لكن معناه صحيح.

lol, what can I say now!! 

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4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Sayeda Fatima (sa) is mother of infallible Imams & wife of infallible Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & daughter of infallible prophet Muhammad (pbu) also she has been infallible which passed test of Allah better than prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) also all infallible Imams have confirmed that she has superiority on them so therefore i believ to both of Imamate & superiority of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) over all prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu)

any evidence?

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4 minutes ago, Inspector said:

It is pathetic that people are asking me to prove that Aimmah (عليه السلام) are انوار الله. There is a whole chapter in Al-Kafi about this:

 

nobody has any major issue with claiming the people who are the guides for us are metaphorically the light of God

Our issue is this:

1. You claim that Sayeda Fatima sa is superior to Ibrahim as - where's the evidence?

2. You claim Sayeda Fatima is laylatul Qadar - again evidence?

3. Your use of cursed people such as Ali b. Abi Hamzah as evidence in hadith 

4. Citing forged hadith such as the infamous one had it not been for you i would not have created Ali or Muhammed saw 

 

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18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

see above , you are a lame & troll users who just throws nonsense just for sake of opposing shia muslisms.

10 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

any evidence?

 

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11 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

see above , you are a lame & troll users who just throws nonsense just for sake of opposing shia muslisms.

 

This is from the link you posted:

"A few points about this, from this website: https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/is-fatima-as-hujjat-on-the-imams/

"The reality is that this narration has NO SANAD (no chain of narrators), and this narration CANNOT be found in any original books of hadith, nor in the books of History or Tafseer."

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29 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

"The reality is that this narration has NO SANAD (no chain of narrators), and this narration CANNOT be found in any original books of hadith, nor in the books of History or Tafseer."

You will deny it anyway because of your anti shia grudge by barking on wrong tree ; which all of infallible Imams during Abbasids era have been called by title of "son of Fatima " by abasid kings for honoring them 

This is accustomed to Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام) 

Quote

شناسه حدیث :  ۶۳۸۲۰   |   نشانی :  عوالم العلوم و المعارف و الأحوال من الآیات و الأخبار و الأقوال  ,  جلد۱۱  ,  صفحه۱۰۳۰  عنوان باب :   الجزء الحادي عشر  القسم الثاني  25 - أبواب أولادها و ذرّيّتها صلوات اللّه عليهم  باب أنّ الأئمّة عليهم السّلام من ولد فاطمة عليها السّلامقائل :   امام حسن عسکری (علیه السلام)

أطيب البيان: في حديث منسوب إلى العسكري عليه السّلام قال: نحن حجج اللّه على خلقه، و جدّتنا فاطمة حجة اللّه علينا .

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/63820/related

This narration was narrated from Imam Askari in the following way:

نَحْنُ حُجَجُ اللّه‏ِ عَلى خَلْقِهِ وَ فاطمةُ حُجةٌ عَليَنا.

تفسير أطيب البيان/ ج 13/ ص 236

 الاسرار الفاطمیه، ص 99

نحن حجج اللَّه على خلقه وجدتنا فاطمة حجة اللَّه علينا

“We are the Hujjat of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) on his creation, and our grandmother Fatima (عليه السلام) is the Hujjat  of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon us (the Imams).”

 الاسرار الفاطمیه، ص 17

from Imam Reza(عليه السلام)  

Quote

«نحن حجج الله علیکم و اُمُّنا فاطمة حجة الله علینا»[1] 

 

“We are the Hujjat of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) upon you, and our mother Fatima (عليه السلام) is the Hujjat  upon us (the Imams).”

[1]. الانتصار، ج 7، ص 237.

https://btid.org/fa/news/50627

https://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/67648

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/اطیب_البیان_فی_تفسیر_القرآن_(کتاب)

 

Harun was not only trying to win their hearts but also simultaneously trying to discredit the Imams. Once he said to Imam al-Kazim (‘a) “How can you claim to be from the children of the Prophet when in reality you are from the children of Ali, and every person’s lineage returns back to their paternal grandparents, not their maternal”. Imam al-Kazim (‘a) (‘a) replied using a verse from the Holy Qur’an ‘...and from his (Ibrahims) offspring, David and Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron, Thus do We reward the virtuous. And Zechariah, John, Jesus and Ilyas, each of them among the righteous [4]. He went on to explain the verse sighting that in it Jesus had been counted amongst the children of the previous Prophets, even though he was related to them through his mother, not his father. In the same way, he explained, we (the Ahl al-Bayt) are related to and counted as the children of the Prophet (s) through our mother Fatima (‘a)[5]. Harun could say nothing in the face of this Qur’anic reasoning.

 

In another similar debate where Harun asked the same question, the Imam replied using a different method, he asked Harun “If the Prophet were to come back to life and ask for your daughters hand in marriage, would you accept?” to which Harun replied “Not only would I accept, but I would boast of this honor to all the Arabs and non-Arabs” The Imam stunned him by continuing as such “However, this is not true for us, nor would the Prophet (s) ask for our daughters in marriage, nor would we give them to him”, when asked why? He replied “Because i am from the lineage of the Prophet, so such a marriage would be unlawful, however you are not from his lineage, hence it would be lawful for you.”[6]

https://www.makarem.ir/maaref/en/article/index/318061/imam-al-kazim-(‘a)-and-harun

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51 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

nobody has any major issue with claiming the people who are the guides for us are metaphorically the light of God

lol, you know at intellectual level, you are demanding me to spoon-feed you. I am not going to do that. It is upon you to make an "understanding" of the reality of these anwaar when you accept that they are created from "noor e wahid". What does it mean to you when you accept their existence when there were no Adam (عليه السلام) and even when there were no angels. Burden your intellect!

55 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Our issue is this:

1. You claim that Sayeda Fatima sa is superior to Ibrahim as - where's the evidence?

Please mind quoting me where is any such "claim" of mine on this thread? 

You were demanding me to prove what I wrote about Syeda Fatima s.a that she is among the divine secrets. 

So I have proved that. 

Now before moving on, you need to teach yourself one basic thing i.e., the difference between claim & understanding.

Keeping in view hundreds of ahadith & verses of Quran, It could be the understanding of anyone that these blessed anwaar, since their "wahdat", are enjoying a higher status. They could be among the العالين. This is an "understanding" keeping in view the texts mentioned earlier (quran & hadith). 

For you, this is a claim, because you are totally ignorant of those texts. So it is not beneficial for you to demand from us to explain our understanding. 

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

2. You claim Sayeda Fatima is laylatul Qadar - again evidence?

lol, read that hadith again and again.

عن أبي عبد الله الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام) أنّه قال: {إنَّا أنزَلْـنَاهُ فِي لَـيْلَةِ القَدْرِ}[2]، الليلة فاطمة الزهراء والقدر الله، فمن عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

What does the bold part says? 

Infact there is another hadith which was not quoted by me here. It was narrated on the authority of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) where he said:

عن الإمام الباقر (عليه السلام) في تفسير سورة القدر، قال: إنّ فاطمة هي ليلة القدر، من عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

Now you always remain in a very poor intellectual state. So instead of understanding the words of ma'soomeen, your poor intellectual state force you to react and reject these words. 

So Fatima s.a is mentioned as Laylatul Qadr here in which capacity? Her true ma'rifah is tantamount to attaining Laylatul Qadr. While you, on the other hand, try to find the laylatul qadr, in the odd nights of the last ten days of ramadan.

Who told you to find laylatula qadr in the odd nights? Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or Allah said this in Quran to find laylatul qadr in the odd nights? So when a Son of that Prophet, makes it more easy by stating that the laylatul qadr can also be attained with the help of true ma'rifah of Syeda Fatima s.a , what is your problem with that? Why showing your mental frustration? 

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

. Your use of cursed people such as Ali b. Abi Hamzah as evidence in hadith

If according to you, Ali bin Hamza was a waqifi, my question would be what is meant by being waqifi? Where and when that "waqf" appeared in his life and when did he formed a new sect? And what would be the value of those reports which he narrated to different people when he was on the right path? Or you understand that whatever he narrated, narrated after exposing his waqf? 

These questions further expose your intellectual failure. And it is already mentioned you that we never reject the valued ahadith just because of the weakness in chain of narrators. 

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

4. Citing forged hadith such as the infamous one had it not been for you i would not have created Ali or Muhammed saw 

lol, first of all, as I already shared, there exist a group of these sort of ahadith both in Sunni & Shi'i texts. So it would be more difficult for any Allamah e Dahr to prove them forged. Or you can prove with your poor intellectual approach, every hadith e qudsi as forged. 

You should know that your responsibility is only to return back the hadith which you are unable to understand. But people could make an "understanding" from those ahadith as well by keeping in view the matn of other ahadith and verses of quran. Why chanting that since I failed to understand that therefore these must be forged? 

So all the following types are forged?

أول ماخلق الله نور نبيك ياجابر

لما أردت أن أخلق الخلق قبضت قبضة من نوري فقلت لها كوني محمدا ثم خلقت من نور محمد كل الأشياء

لولا محمد ماخلقتك

قال: أوحی اللّٰہ إلٰی عیسٰی: یا عیسی! آمن بمحمد وأمر من أدرکتہ من أمتک أن یؤمنوا بہ، فلولامحمد ما خلقت آدم ولولا محمد ما خلقت الجنۃ ولا النار

I can keep quoting this group of ahadith lol but I think the above should suffice. Now to make an understanding of these ahadith, you need to look at Quran first and the sound ahadith you may find mentioning similar meaning or pointing towards any possibility of making an understand from these reports. 

وَ اِذْ اَخَذَ اللّٰهُ مِیْثَاقَ النَّبِیّٖنَ لَمَاۤ اٰتَیْتُكُمْ مِّنْ كِتٰبٍ وَّ حِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُوْلٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهٖ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنَّهٗؕ-قَالَ ءَاَقْرَرْتُمْ وَ اَخَذْتُمْ عَلٰى ذٰلِكُمْ اِصْرِیْؕ-قَالُوْۤا اَقْرَرْنَاؕ-قَالَ فَاشْهَدُوْا وَ اَنَا مَعَكُمْ مِّنَ الشّٰهِدِیْنَ(81)فَمَنْ تَوَلّٰى بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ فَاُولٰٓىٕكَ هُمُ الْفٰسِقُوْنَ

The above verse do have a clause hidden in it. All the prophets were given the Prophet-hood conditionally. And that condition is لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهٖ وَ لَتَنْصُرُنَّهٗؕ, Interestingly this verse has also mentioned the only condition for succeeding prophet as مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ. 

I don't want to spoon-feed you more than that. Burden your intellect lol.

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Sayeda Fatima (sa) is mother of infallible Imams & wife of infallible Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & daughter of infallible prophet Muhammad (pbu) also she has been infallible which passed test of Allah better than prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) also all infallible Imams have confirmed that she has superiority on them so therefore i believ to both of Imamate & superiority of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) over all prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu)

Being mother and wife of infallibles doesn't prove that she is better than ulil azm prophets. By that logic khadija must be superior to fatima

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1 hour ago, sunnism said:

By that logic khadija must be superior to fatima

She has not been infallible anyway lady Khadija has had superiority yo Ayesha 

 

1 hour ago, sunnism said:

Being mother and wife of infallibles doesn't prove that she is better than ulil azm prophets

Her status has been proven by prophet Muhammad (pbu) , do you believe family of your prophet have no superiority other people while prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been superior to all prophets also all of his family have supported him in most difficult situation while Ayesha has caused disturbance for him which if Ayesha would be in position of lady Khadija so then you would consider her superior to all prophets but due to your enmity with shia muslims you are trying to degrade position of lady Fatima (sa) & lady Khadija. 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

She has not been infallible anyway lady Khadija has had superiority yo Ayesha 

And neither fatima was infallible. All the mental gymnastics you do with ayah tatheer can be easily debunked. 

 

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Her status has been proven by prophet Muhammad

That doesn't make her superior to ibrahim. 

 

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

do you believe family of your prophet have no superiority other people while prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been superior to all prophets

No. Family of the prophet are better than others in terms of lineage but as far as rank in the court of allah, then it depends on the member of ahlul bayt. If a hashmi is more knowledgeable, more pious than others then he will have superiority. 

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

if Ayesha would be in position of lady Khadija so then you would consider her superior to all prophets but due to your enmity with shia muslims you are trying to degrade position of lady Fatima (sa) & lady Khadija

Stop beating around the bush. Answer the simple question, how can fatima who is not a prophet or an imam can be better than an ulil azm prophet and also an imam. While imamah is the greatest rank according to you. Any attempt to prove her superiority to ibrahim will prove that she is even superior than ali. 

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9 hours ago, Inspector said:

Please mind quoting me where is any such "claim" of mine on this thread? 

You were demanding me to prove what I wrote about Syeda Fatima s.a that she is among the divine secrets. 

So I have proved that. 

Now before moving on, you need to teach yourself one basic thing i.e., the difference between claim & understanding.

Keeping in view hundreds of ahadith & verses of Quran, It could be the understanding of anyone that these blessed anwaar, since their "wahdat", are enjoying a higher status. They could be among the العالين. This is an "understanding" keeping in view the texts mentioned earlier (quran & hadith). 

For you, this is a claim, because you are totally ignorant of those texts. So it is not beneficial for you to demand from us to explain our understanding. 

Do you believe Sayeda Fatima sa is superior to any Prophet of God, Ulul-Azam Prophets, or any of the other Imams? Please feel free to clarify, if you do not believe this, then my apologies for misunderstanding what you said.

I want to caution, again my dear beloved brother in Islam, for your sake and for my sake, when it comes to how we refer to personalities we all deeply love, revere and have a lofty status.

Nobody can deny the lofty status of Sayeda Fatima sa. However, when we go into excess, even out of love, and begin to claim she is part of God's divine secrets, we then go into ghuluw and excess.

There's no evidence of this. It has led people to rely on fabrications such as the Salat of Fatima, which includes performing Sujood and then in Sujood crying out "O my mistress Fatima help me x500" which is shirk.

It leads some people into claiming the universe was made out of the light of Fatima, which again is another ghulat belief.

It leads people into using weak and fabricated hadith that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allegedly told Muhammed and Ali asws that had it not been for Fatima sa he would not have made them, which is another Iftirah and lie upon Allah and can have severe divine consequences.

9 hours ago, Inspector said:

عن أبي عبد الله الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام) أنّه قال: {إنَّا أنزَلْـنَاهُ فِي لَـيْلَةِ القَدْرِ}[2]، الليلة فاطمة الزهراء والقدر الله، فمن عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

 

Is this the hadith also narrated by Ali b. Abi Hamzah, who the Imams cursed, who was a fabricator, a liar, the founder of a cult?

Even if he was okay earlier in his life, do you want to take Aqeedah from a man whose heart likely was full of filth, greed and perverted ? Is that what we should stake our hereafter on? The words of a fabricator and liar, who we have no way of knowing when or how or what his intentions were before?

Furthermore, Sayeda Fatima is not Laylatul Qadar, this sounds like a Ghulat belief where they began to exaggerate and deify - the way Christians do with Mary.

Interestingly, some Shias venerate and make Sayeda Fatima far more powerful than Christians do with Mary, the ghuluw is far more. Sayeda Fatima is given attributes like the one who the universe was made from, answers prayer, controls the atoms of the universe, is part of Gods hidden divine secrets etc.

These are dangerous beliefs.

 

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9 hours ago, Inspector said:

lol, first of all, as I already shared, there exist a group of these sort of ahadith both in Sunni & Shi'i texts. So it would be more difficult for any Allamah e Dahr to prove them forged. Or you can prove with your poor intellectual approach, every hadith e qudsi as forged. 

 

Brother, this honestly isn't about winning or losing a debate. I am a nobody. What we are doing here is staking our hereafter and making Iftirah and lies upon Allah, if we use fabricated narrations which are not authentic.

Sunnis do not believe in that sort of Hadith i.e. Had it not been for Fatima he would not have made the Prophet/Ali.

As far as Shia texts, the Hujjah has now been made clear on you by the others and the link - it is on you to read it, accept Haq and because Allah is worthy of it, not use such a thing.

 

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5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Her status has been proven by prophet Muhammad (pbu) , do you believe family of your prophet have no superiority other people while prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been superior to all prophets also all of his family have supported him in most difficult situation while Ayesha has caused disturbance for him which if Ayesha would be in position of lady Khadija so then you would consider her superior to all prophets but due to your enmity with shia muslims you are trying to degrade position of lady Fatima (sa) & lady Khadija. 

Let's be fair please.

They would never have considered it. They do not even consider the Caliphs as superior to Prophets of God.

There is no solid basis to consider Sayeda Fatima as superior to any Prophet, let alone the Ulul-Azam Prophets.

 

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1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

Let's be fair please.

They would never have considered it. They do not even consider the Caliphs as superior to Prophets of God.

There is no solid basis to consider Sayeda Fatima as superior to any Prophet, let alone the Ulul-Azam Prophets.

 

Exactly. Plus ahlus sunnah considered Ali to be better than both khadija and aisha. 

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14 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

2. You claim Sayeda Fatima is laylatul Qadar - again evidence?

I was searching and found it here

قال الصادق (علیه السلام):’’ انا انزلناه في لـيلة القـدر’’، الليلة فاطـمه و القـدر الله فمن عرف فاطمه حق معرفتها فقد ادرک ليلة القدر و أنما سميت فاطمه لأن الخلق فطموا عن معرفتها…. بحار الانوار جلد43

Bihar al-Anwar volume 43. What is the chain? 

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7 hours ago, sunnism said:

And neither fatima was infallible. All the mental gymnastics you do with ayah tatheer can be easily debunked. 

She have ismah and not infallibility. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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On 2/11/2024 at 10:10 PM, sunnism said:

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets. You consider imamate to the highest position. Then how could fatima could be better than ibrahim who is both a prophet and an imam. 

I don't believe anyone can prove anyones position expect Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). We may have narrations that indicate someone position higher than other, but it does not prove necessary that others could be lower or higher than others.

Can a female who can not be a prophet or Imam because of her gender be greater in her faith than a male prophet or Imam? 

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

She have ismah and not infallibility. 

What's the difference? 

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43 minutes ago, sunnism said:

What's the difference? 

Ismah is a grace from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to enable the invidual to abstain from sinning by his free will. In the verse 33:33 it is same protection that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) while they stay in the state of purity and protection. It does not include necessary doing mistakes, because mistakes does not include to sinning. 

If we define infallibility by Dictionary then it will mean " the inability to be wrong", where inability indicate the state of being unable to do something. This is very problematic with free will. 

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18 hours ago, sunnism said:

And neither fatima was infallible. All the mental gymnastics you do with ayah tatheer can be easily debunked. 

Salam lol you consider Ayehsa infallible based on your interpretation from verse 33:33 while you are denying infallibility of lady Fatima who surly has had undeniable superiority to Ayesha which if you deny infallibility of lady Fatima so then you deny infallibility of mothers of believers which Ayeahs has been one them which your sunni scholars have considered all wives of prophet Muhammad (pbu) as his Ahlulbayt in verse of purification (33:33) which now you have denied position of Ayesha  just for decreasing status of lady Fatima (sa) .

7 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

If we define infallibility by Dictionary then it will mean " the inability to be wrong", where inability indicate the state of being unable to do something. This is very problematic with free will.

Salam we use infallibility because it's most near definition to definition of Ismah in westerner dictionaries which all of us are using term of Ismah in Arabic & Farsi/Persian & Urdu which Ismah has no definition in westerner dictionaries which only near definition to it , is infallibility although it doesn't has proper definition near to Ismah .

10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

She have ismah and not infallibility. 

 

18 hours ago, sunnism said:

That doesn't make her superior to ibrahim. 

You will never accept her superiority until you will regret for denying it in judgment day although her superiority over all prophets even prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been proven by verse of Mubahila as bringing of our women in Mubahila .

Quote

The Holy Prophet said فاطمة بضعة مني, "Fatima is part of me". He would go out to receive his daughter whenever she came from her husband's house. Every morning on his way to the Mosque, he would pass by Fatima's house and say, "as-Salamu `alaykum ya Ahla Bay annnubuwwah wa ma`din arr-risala " (Peace be with you, O Ahl al-Bayt (Household of the Prophet) and the Substance of the Message).

Fatima (ع) is famous and acknowledged as the "Sayyidatu nisa '1-`alamin" (Leader of all the women of the world for all times) because the Prophethood of Muhammad would not have been everlasting without her. The Prophet is the perfect example for men, but could not be so for women. For all the verses revealed in the Holy Qur'an for women, Fatima is the perfect model, who translated every verse into action. In her lifetime, she was a complete woman, being Daughter, Wife and Mother at the same time.

 

18 hours ago, sunnism said:

Stop beating around the bush. Answer the simple question, how can fatima who is not a prophet or an imam can be better than an ulil azm prophet and also an imam. While imamah is the greatest rank according to you. Any attempt to prove her superiority to ibrahim will prove that she is even superior than ali. 

According to prophet Muhammad (pbu) , lady Fatima has had all qualification of being a prophet which her superiority to all Masum (infallible ) Imams have been proven for Shia muslims although you have no definition for being Imam so therefore it's beyond your understanding due to your blind faith  .

Quote

پیامبر اکرم صلی الله علیه و آله «یا عَلَیُّ أنْفِذْ لِما اَمَرَتْکَ بِهِ فاطِمَةُ فَقَدْ اَمَرْتُها بِأَشْیاءَ أَمَرَ بِها جَبْرَئیلُ علیه السلام…».[38] 

[38] بحارالانوار، ج 22، ص 484-

Prophet Muhammad (pbu) "O Ali! Do what Fatima (peace be upon her) commands. Because I have commanded him the things that Gabriel (peace be upon him) commanded me to it..."

[38] Bihar al-Anwar , v 22 , p484 

When Fatimah Zahra, peace be upon her, is the proof of Allah, and even the Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny , orders the Commander of the Faithful, peace be upon him, to obey her, it is obvious that the believers must obey her and make her behavior and words their goal. especially that she is innocent and free from sin and error, which is another proof of obedience.

https://rasulrahmat.ir/prof-knw/حضرت-فاطمه-سلام-الله-علیها-در-نگاه-رسول/

 

I have mentioned that Ibn abbas (رضي الله عنه) has mentioned  lady Fatima (sa) & commander of believers Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as two seas with a barrier  which has been mentioned in holy Quran so therefore proving superiority of lady Fatima (sa) over prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) leads to proving proving superiority commander of believers Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over all prophets from prophet Nuh (عليه السلام) to prophet Isa (عليه السلام) except prophet Muhammad (pbu) who has superiority to both of  lady Fatima (sa) & commander of believers Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & reat of prophets even prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام).

 

18 hours ago, sunnism said:

No. Family of the prophet are better than others in terms of lineage but as far as rank in the court of allah, then it depends on the member of ahlul bayt. If a hashmi is more knowledgeable, more pious than others then he will have superiority. 

 

Fatima (ع) was called az-Zahra' because her light used to shine among those in the heavens.

Fatima inherited the genius and wisdom, the determination and will power, piety and sanctity, generosity and benevolence, devotion and worship of Allah, self-sacrifice and hospitality, forbearance and patience, knowledge and nobility of disposition of her illustrious father, both in words and in actions. “I often witnessed my mother,” says Imam Husain, "absorbed in prayer from dusk to dawn."

The Holy Prophet said: “Whoever injures (bodily or otherwise) Fatima, he injures me; and whoever injures me injures Allah; and whoever injures Allah practices unbelief. O Fatima! If your wrath is incurred, it incurs the wrath of Allah; and if you are pleased, it makes Allah pleased, too.”

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/fatima-sa-daughter-muhammad-s-brief-biography-yasin-t-al-jibouri#:~:text=Fatima (ع) is famous and,not be so for women

But in the entire history of the world, there are only four women who could measure up to the high standards of true greatness and perfection set by Islam. They measured up to these standards by dint of their great services to Allah. Muhammad Mustafa, the Prophet of Islam, the Recipient of Revelation from Heaven, and its Interpreter, identified them. They are:

1. Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh 2. Maryam (Mary), the mother of Isa (Jesus) 3. Khadija, the daughter of Khuwayled, and 4. Fatima Zahra, the daughter of Muhammad Mustafa (S)

Muhammad Mustafa found only four perfect women in the entire human race. Out of these four, the last two belong to the same house; they are Khadija, the mother, and Fatima, her daughter.

https://www.al-islam.org/khadijatul-kubra-short-story-her-life-sayyid-ali-asghar-razwy/chapter-14-perfect-woman

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-14-no-1-winter-2013/fatima-zahra-words-infallibles/fatima-zahra-words#:~:text=The Prophet said%2C “Many men,whom all women should follow

https://www.al-islam.org/fatima-gracious-abu-muhammad-ordoni/prophets-love-fatima-az-zahra-sa

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/fatima-mother-her-father-mansour-leghaei

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And Allah sets forth an example for the believers: the wife of Pharaoh, who prayed, “My Lord! Build me a house in Paradise near You, deliver me from Pharaoh and his ˹evil˺ doing, and save me from the wrongdoing people.”

 

Quote

In Sahih Bukhari, the Prophet said "Many men were completed, and only Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh, and Maryam bint Imran, were completed among the women".[7][10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiya

Fatima - the perfect human being

The Prophet said, “Many men have reached perfection, but from among all women only four women have [reached perfection]; no other woman apart from these four will reach this status. Those four women are: Asiya4, Maryam5, Khadijah6 and Fatima.”78

In other words, the Prophet presents these four women as the best and highest moral and practical examples for women in all ages - from the past until the future - whom all women should follow.

 

from sunni viewpoin


فَاطِمَةُ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي، فَمَنْ أَغْضَبَهَا أَغْضَبَنِي

“Fatimah is a part of me, and he who makes her angry makes me angry”


(Sahih Al-Bukhari)


خط رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في الأرض أربعة أخطط، ثم قال: تدرون ما هذا؟ قالوا: الله ورسوله أعلم. قال: أفضل نساء أهل الجنة خديجة بنت خويلد، وفاطمة بنت محمد، ومريم ابنة عمران، وآسية بنت مزاحم امرأة فرعون

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). drew four lines on the ground, then he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). said, “Do you know what this is?” The Companions (رضي الله عنه). replied, “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). then said: “The best of the women of Paradise are Khadijah bint Khuwaylid, Fatimah bint Muhammad, Maryam bint ‘Imran and Asiya bint Muzahim, the wife of Pharaoh”


(Musnad Ahmad)

 

1.  Sayyidatina Khadijah Bint Khuwaylid (رضي الله عنه).
خير نسائها مريم، وخير نسائها خديجة

“Mary, the daughter of Imran, was the best among the women (of the world of her time) and Khadijah is the best amongst the women (of this nation).”


(Sahih Al-Bukhari)

She was also beloved to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). and angel Jibril (عليه السلام). Once, Jibril (عليه السلام). came to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). and said:

يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ هَذِهِ خَدِيجَةُ قَدْ أَتَتْ مَعَهَا إِنَاءٌ فِيهِ إِدَامٌ أَوْ طَعَامٌ أَوْ شَرَابٌ فَإِذَا هِيَ أَتَتْكَ فَاقْرَأْ عَلَيْهَا السَّلَامَ مِنْ رَبِّهَا وَمِنِّي وَبَشِّرْهَا بِبَيْتٍ فِي الْجَنَّةِ مِنْ قَصَبٍ لَا صَخَبَ فِيهِ وَلَا نَصَبَ

“O Messenger of Allah, here is Khadijah coming to you with a dish of stew, food and drink. When she arrives before you, greet her with peace on behalf of her Lord and myself. Give her glad tidings of a palace in Paradise made of reeds, wherein there will be no turbulence, nor fatigue.”


(Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Quote

Once Sayyidatina A’ishah (رضي الله عنه). enquired from Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). about Khadijah (رضي الله عنه). to which he replied: 

قد آمنت بي إذ كفر بي الناس وصدقتني إذ كذبني الناس وواستني بمالها إذ حرمني الناس

“She believed in me when no one else did, she accepted (my call to the truth) when people rejected me and she supported me financially when others denied me.”


(Musnad Ahmad)

https://muslim.sg/articles/4-women-of-paradise

 

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On 2/13/2024 at 8:05 AM, Inspector said:

If according to you, Ali bin Hamza was a waqifi, my question would be what is meant by being waqifi? Where and when that "waqf" appeared in his life and when did he formed a new sect? And what would be the value of those reports which he narrated to different people when he was on the right path? Or you understand that whatever he narrated, narrated after exposing his waqf? 

These questions further expose your intellectual failure. And it is already mentioned you that we never reject the valued ahadith just because of the weakness in chain of narrators. 

Allow me to quote your post from another thread:

This hadith is da'eef and cannot be relied upon because of علي بن - أبي حمزة in the chain of narration which is mentioned as ضعيف as well as كذاب by rijaal experts. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Do you believe Sayeda Fatima sa is superior to any Prophet of God, Ulul-Azam Prophets, or any of the other Imams?

You don"t need to ask me anything about what "I believe". Since you have now accepted the reality of "Noor e Wahid" from which the five blessed personalities were created, it is upon you to make an understanding of your accepted fact in such a way which may not collide with Quran & Hadith. 

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Nobody can deny the lofty status of Sayeda Fatima sa. However, when we go into excess, even out of love, and begin to claim she is part of God's divine secrets, we then go into ghuluw and excess.

What I always see in these blessed personalities is the perfection in humanity (kamal e insaniyat). The only excess for any person we identify as "Insaan e Kamil" would be to attribute him divinity and I only know them as "Insaan e Kamil". There cannot be ghuluw and there cannot be an excess in status of one whose heights are not known to us and whose remembrance is exalted by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself (wa rafa'na laka thikrak). 

So according to our classical hadith books, we already know the following about Syeda Fatima s.a:

"The light (Nur) of Fatima (S.A) was created before the creation of the earth and the heaven" 

This is just a part of hadith present in a book of Sheikh al-Sadooq a.r known as Ma'ani al-Akhbar p. 396. And there are many ahadith which can be cited to know about these blessed personalities. 
 

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

and begin to claim she is part of God's divine secrets, we then go into ghuluw and excess.

She s.a, is indeed among the divine secrets, there is no doubt about it. The arabic word "sirrun min-al-israare ilahiyyah" can be said to many things. Some of them can be known and some cannot.  And I have just referred you two points:

a) Her Kunniyyah "Umm-Abiha", you have presented your very limited understanding of that kunniyyah. I have a better and more profound understanding of that which I haven't mentioned till yet. 
b) A hadith e qudsi, whose chain is not known. I am not a fan of rijaal, neither I often care about that defective tool for measuring the authenticity of any report. I always prefer to use Quran in a first place for checking the authenticity of hadith. And I am going to attempt to explain in near future (Insha-Allah) why I think the matn of that hadith is not problematic for me. Interestingly, there are three parts in that hadith:

One is for Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) 
One is for Imam Ali (عليه السلام)
And third one is for Fatima s.a 

The author has targeted only the 3rd part/paragraph of that hadith. Why? I will discuss that and there are many problems in the research paper shared by brother @Abu_Zahra, I will make a separate thread for presenting my critics on that research paper. 
 

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

It leads some people into claiming the universe was made out of the light of Fatima, which again is another ghulat belief.

Look, out of your ignorance, you just keep writing the things which those group of allegedly fabricated ahadith themselves never say. For the negation of the bolded part above, the very first paragraph of that hadith is sufficient where it is mentioned that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said "if it were not for you (O Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), I would not have created the heavens". 

So according to your poor logic, we should stop reading the Quran because some people do misinterpret its verses and create ghulat belief, for instance, God is sitting on the throne etc. At least bring rationality & sound logic in your arguments. 
 

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Even if he was okay earlier in his life, do you want to take Aqeedah from a man whose heart likely was full of filth, greed and perverted ?

 Why you are keep asking me to spoon-feed you? Search for yourself, find the chain and do the research of the narrators. I read the matn first and then my very first tool is Quran for checking the reliability of any hadith. So I have no problem in accepting that hadith too. When Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is mentioned as "Sirajan Muneer", "Shams" in Quran, when Ali (عليه السلام) is mentioned as "Qamar" in Quran, why would I raise objection if a Son of Prophet mentioning that Fatima s.a is mentioned as Layl or Laylatul Qadr in Quran?  
 

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Furthermore, Sayeda Fatima is not Laylatul Qadar, this sounds like a Ghulat belief where they began to exaggerate and deify - the way Christians do with Mary.

You keep viewing the apparent and base your aqa'id on apparent. 

Keep fighting with Iblis and keep on his way. The more you keep fighting Iblis, the more you waste your time and he will successfully kidnap you, take all of your time & will not allow you to ascend spiritually. 

I came far away from this fight, now whatever I see, see from the little ma'rifah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which has enlightened my heart. And that is the blessing of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which has reached me through Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & his pure progeny (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them all) 

يَعْلَمُونَ ظَاهِرًا مِنَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ عَنِ الْآخِرَةِ هُمْ غَافِلُونَ

Don't ask me why I wrote this verse in the end lol..

13 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It is so clear, how in the world someone can still favor such a belief? 

Just view it as a text, just analyze the matn itself.

Rijaal itself is a defective tool, a narrator can be thoqah for someone and can be a liar for someone at the same time. Some even reject the hadith just because narrator is deviated from the right path somewhere in his life (may it be well after narrating any hadith which is not contradicting with Quran).   

There are many ahadith we have which has weak chain, yet strong matn. Interestingly, if you look at the research paper, the author of that paper never advised you to throw away the text and never look at the text just because chain is weak: 

"If we have reason to think a ḥadīth is forged, citing it as evidence is both impermissible and ethically dubious.

And in the very next statement, the author showed which group he belongs to:

"This is especially the case here because the ḥadīth is being attributed to God. Failure to care about its authenticity also shows a strange disregard for the truth which reflects badly about the speaker who will shape the minds of his audience on matters which he fails to be even remotely certain of." 

One may ask, what is the primary source with us for accepting or rejecting any hadith? Do he believe that ilm ul rijaal is the only correct & perfect tool of checking the authenticity of hadith?  Can it be the case that a hadith is sahih in its matn but the chain is forged? Can it be the case that a hadith is colliding with Quran but its chain is sound? 

Ask our scholars, do they have any problem in accepting the 2nd part (or even the 3rd part) i.e., "If it were not for Ali, I would not have created you (O Muhammad)"? No, they don't have any problem. Their statement is quite similar to the statement of scholars of Ahlul Sunnah who after declaring the hadith Mowdu, added "but its meaning are correct". 
 

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2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Allow me to quote your post from another thread:

This hadith is da'eef and cannot be relied upon because of علي بن - أبي حمزة in the chain of narration which is mentioned as ضعيف as well as كذاب by rijaal experts. 

Yes, I said this there. You haven't figured out the difference here and there. If you have the honesty, present your comment too where you said al-Kufi was a ghali. 

There, the text of hadith itself doubtful and then it had weakness in chain as well. 

There I was challenging that it is unimaginable as well as irrational that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would marry his biological daughters to polytheists. There I presented the hadith and you named the narrator as ghali. There I presented many historical records mentioning that 4 daughters & 2 sons of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were born after ba'atha, as well as ahadith showing Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the only son-in-law of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 
 

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