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In the Name of God بسم الله

Order of superiority according to shi'ites

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1 minute ago, Inspector said:

الله نور السماوات والأرض مثل نوره كمشكاة فيها مصباح

What & who is the misdaq of مشكاة in above verse?

۞ ٱللَّهُ نُورُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِۦ كَمِشْكَوٰةٍۢ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ ٱلْمِصْبَاحُ فِى زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ ٱلزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌۭ دُرِّىٌّۭ يُوقَدُ مِن شَجَرَةٍۢ مُّبَـٰرَكَةٍۢ زَيْتُونَةٍۢ لَّا شَرْقِيَّةٍۢ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍۢ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِىٓءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌۭ ۚ نُّورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍۢ ۗ يَهْدِى ٱللَّهُ لِنُورِهِۦ مَن يَشَآءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْأَمْثَـٰلَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمٌۭ ٣٥

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. His light1 is like a niche in which there is a lamp, the lamp is in a crystal, the crystal is like a shining star, lit from ˹the oil of˺ a blessed olive tree, ˹located˺ neither to the east nor the west,2 whose oil would almost glow, even without being touched by fire. Light upon light! Allah guides whoever He wills to His light. And Allah sets forth parables for humanity. For Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of all things."

This is the verse in question.

Are you actually now taking a verse of the Quran and shoe-horning something which truly appears to have nothing to do with it? Allah is in this verse, describing allegorically his glory. But as was a common practice and theme we often find among fabricators and Ghulat in our hadith corpus, it is a secret code apparently to mean Fatima sa in part. 

In this way, the Quran is distorted, Allah is pushed aside, and we deify or raise instead, mortals in a way there seems to be little evidence for.

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No evidence provided for any claims other than very vauge or esoteric type comments.  If you look at Shia hadith and look at reports where Quranic verses are distorted and codified, and look at the people narrating it , you will find for the vast majority there are known liars, fabricators, and extreme ghalis/exagerrators in the chain.

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2 minutes ago, Inspector said:

What claim I have made? 

That she is greater in status than the Prophets of God or Ibrahim as.

If this is not your claim feel free to say so.

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10 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

 

Are you actually now taking a verse of the Quran and shoe-horning something which truly appears to have nothing to do with it?

First of all;

 " مَثَلُ نُورِهِ "، أي مثل نور الله وليس مثل الله

Secondly, know the verse;

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِؤُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه

Your failure is regretful. I don't want to burden your aql anymore. Stay at your existing level. 

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21 minutes ago, Inspector said:

First of all;

 " مَثَلُ نُورِهِ "، أي مثل نور الله وليس مثل الله

Secondly, know the verse;

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِؤُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِه

Your failure is regretful. I don't want to burden your aql anymore. Stay at your existing level. 

This is textbook what we find in the hadith corpus.

Quranic verses where vague codified interpretations are shoehorned in, and the excuse given is one does not possess the Ma'rifaat to understand these hidden secrets.

This was the modus operandus of the classical ghulat, not that i claim you are one of them brother, but i want to warn you this was the same method used.

It was devastatingly effective because how can you really challenge it? Anyone can give any meaning to anything they wish and believe whatever they want. 

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4 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

This is textbook what we find in the hadith corpus.

You know you are so stupid! 

The words were mine in Arabic not from any text book. Do you not understand the translation you shared;

41 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

His light1 is like a niche

So I simply need to correct you that this parable is for divine light. And your poor translation has omitted the Arabic word مثله too. 

You are so low in your understanding. 

And the Ayah e Noor is just another verse which can be used to understand the اسرار of نور الله. 

وعن أبي عبد الله الإمام الصادق (عليه السلام) أنّه قال: {إنَّا أنزَلْـنَاهُ فِي لَـيْلَةِ القَدْرِ}[2]، الليلة فاطمة الزهراء والقدر الله، فمن عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

This would go above your head, so stop right here. I don't even want to discuss this subject with you because of your lack of knowledge of Quran itself. 

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25 minutes ago, Inspector said:

You know you are so stupid! 

The words were mine in Arabic not from any text book. Do you not understand the translation you shared;

lf. 

I am aware this part was your own:  أي مثل نور الله وليس مثل الله

i.e meaning noot of allah and not like Allah

But this sort of reasoning , this vague estoterism is found among the ghulat in the hadith corpus.

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1 minute ago, In Gods Name said:

But this sort of reasoning , this vague estoterism is found among the ghulat in the hadith corpus.

Either you deny that there is no esoteric meanings of divine parables or you accept. There are many ahadith of Aimma e Tahireen عليهم السلام which describes the esoteric meaning of many verses of Quran. 

And why I said Fatima s.a as divine secret is because of what I know from the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams. Among them is this too:

إنّ نور ابنتي فاطمة من نور الله

And the one shared earlier:

فمن عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

 

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2 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Either you deny that there is no esoteric meanings of divine parables or you accept. There are many ahadith of Aimma e Tahireen عليهم السلام which describes the esoteric meaning of many verses of Quran. 

And why I said Fatima s.a as divine secret is because of what I know from the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams. Among them is this too:

إنّ نور ابنتي فاطمة من نور الله

And the one shared earlier:

فمن عرف فاطمة حقّ معرفتها فقد أدرك ليلة القدر

 

Link the primary sources (links to websites do not count as primary sources) and give the chain of narrators for each.

It is absolutely astonishing to swap out words of the Quran and turn them into Syeda Fatima sa.

Especially now the claim regarding knowing Fatima being equated to knowing Laylatul Qadr.

<>

In my next post, i will show you how the Ghulat absolutely loved this sort of vague esoteric interpretations. 

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Just now, In Gods Name said:

Link the primary sources (links to websites do not count as primary sources) and give the chain of narrators for each.

lol, These are known as خبر المشهور.these types of reports are so famous that every shia knows them.

Anyway, I will share the references too.

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11 minutes ago, Inspector said:

lol, These are known as خبر المشهور.these types of reports are so famous that every shia knows them.

Anyway, I will share the references too.

The full narration for each please, the exact primary work that it is obtained from, and the chain of narrators inshaAllah.

There are plenty of weak, fabricated, and inauthentic mashoor sayings by the way, among Shias and Sunnis...

and the claim that knowledge of Fatima is knowledge or like knowledge of Laylatul Qadr, respectfully sounds like it came from the Ghulat, but let's see the evidence.

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12 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Link the primary sources (links to websites do not count as primary sources) and give the chain of narrators for each.

It is absolutely astonishing to swap out words of the Quran and turn them into Syeda Fatima sa.

Especially now the claim regarding knowing Fatima being equated to knowing Laylatul Qadr.

<>

In my next post, i will show you how the Ghulat absolutely loved this sort of vague esoteric interpretations. 

Accept it bro. Shia books of tafseer are filled with batini and esoteric type of interpretations which are authentic according to your standards. You give me naved zaveri type of vibe. 

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1 minute ago, sunnism said:

Accept it bro. Shia books of tafseer are filled with batini and esoteric type of interpretations which are authentic according to your standards. You give me naved zaveri type of vibe. 

I've combed through them myself.

The vast majority are weak and by the Ghulat.

If there are Shadh reports, even if the chain is reliable, isolated reports can not be used to form Aqeedah. 

Remember, it's possible an isolated narration is graded authentic but weak by Matn because fabricators not only fabricated ahadith, they also fabricated chains and our ahadith were spread via books of the companions of the Imams and people would borrow those and then add things in.

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3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

, even if the chain is reliable, isolated reports can not be used to form Aqeedah. 

But this isn't aqeedah. Those batini reports will mostly prove virtue of fatima not her superiority to ulil azm prophets. 

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6 minutes ago, sunnism said:

But this isn't aqeedah. Those batini reports will mostly prove virtue of fatima not her superiority to ulil azm prophets. 

It is Aqeedah if wild claims are made that enter into Aqeedah territory and use verses of the Quran. This is beyond just Fadhai'l.

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@Inspector

 

وقدم عليٌّ من اليمنِ ببُدنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ . فوجد فاطمةَ رضي اللهُ عنها ممن حلَّ . ولبست ثيابًا صبيغًا . واكتحلَت . فأنكر ذلك عليها . فقالت : إنَّ أبي أمرني بهذا . قال : فكان عليٌّ يقول بالعراقِ : فذهبتُ إلى رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ مُحَرِّشًا على فاطمةَ . للذي صنعت . مُستفتيًا رسولَ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ فيما ذكرتْ عنه . فأخبرتُه أني أنكرت ُذلك عليها . فقال : صدقتْ صدقت ْ.  […(In a long narration he says)…`Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing anger at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.] 

Now this is in Shia books as well and InshaAllah we will write the Shia chains of narration to see if it is authentic based on their standards or not.  This narration is found in the Shia main four books. 

 

al-Tusi: 

محمد بن علي بن محبوب عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام ومحمد بن الحسين وعلي بن السندي والعباس كلهم عن صفوان عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام 

Narrates it in al-Tahdheeb and al-Amali, his chains are as follows:  1- Muhammad bin `Ali bin Mahboub, from Ya`qoub bin Yazid, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- Muhammad bin Husayn, and `Ali bin al-Sindi, and al-`Abbas, all of them, from Safwan, from  Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

  al-Kulayni: 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيه ومُحَمَّدُ بْنُ
يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادٍ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّه عن عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيه ومُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ عَنِ الْفَضْلِ بْنِ شَاذَانَ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّه 

 

Narrates it in al-Kafi with these chains:  1- `Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, and Muhammad bin Yahya, from Ahmad bin Muhammad, all of them, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Hamad, from al-Halabi, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- `Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, and Muhammad bin Isma`eel, from al-Fadl bin Shadhan, all of them, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)… 

 

al-Saduq: 

أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن محمد بن ابي عمير عن حماد عن الحلبي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام 

 

Narrated it in al-Fqih and al-`Ilal with the following chain:  1- My father (rah) said: Sa`d bin `Abdullah told us, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from Muhammad bin abi `Umayr, from Hamad, from al-Halabi, from abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام)

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36 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

@Inspector

 

وقدم عليٌّ من اليمنِ ببُدنِ النبيِّ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ . فوجد فاطمةَ رضي اللهُ عنها ممن حلَّ . ولبست ثيابًا صبيغًا . واكتحلَت . فأنكر ذلك عليها . فقالت : إنَّ أبي أمرني بهذا . قال : فكان عليٌّ يقول بالعراقِ : فذهبتُ إلى رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ مُحَرِّشًا على فاطمةَ . للذي صنعت . مُستفتيًا رسولَ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ فيما ذكرتْ عنه . فأخبرتُه أني أنكرت ُذلك عليها . فقال : صدقتْ صدقت ْ.  […(In a long narration he says)…`Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet (May peace be upon him) and found Fatimah (Allah be pleased with her) to be one among those who had put-off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (`Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing anger at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.] 

Now this is in Shia books as well and InshaAllah we will write the Shia chains of narration to see if it is authentic based on their standards or not.  This narration is found in the Shia main four books. 

 

al-Tusi: 

محمد بن علي بن محبوب عن يعقوب بن يزيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام ومحمد بن الحسين وعلي بن السندي والعباس كلهم عن صفوان عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام 

Narrates it in al-Tahdheeb and al-Amali, his chains are as follows:  1- Muhammad bin `Ali bin Mahboub, from Ya`qoub bin Yazid, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- Muhammad bin Husayn, and `Ali bin al-Sindi, and al-`Abbas, all of them, from Safwan, from  Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

  al-Kulayni: 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيه ومُحَمَّدُ بْنُ
يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادٍ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّه عن عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيه ومُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ عَنِ الْفَضْلِ بْنِ شَاذَانَ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّه 

 

Narrates it in al-Kafi with these chains:  1- `Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, and Muhammad bin Yahya, from Ahmad bin Muhammad, all of them, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Hamad, from al-Halabi, from abi `Abdillah (as)…

2- `Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, and Muhammad bin Isma`eel, from al-Fadl bin Shadhan, all of them, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Mu`awiyah bin `Ammar, from abi `Abdillah (as)… 

 

al-Saduq: 

أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن محمد بن ابي عمير عن حماد عن الحلبي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام 

 

Narrated it in al-Fqih and al-`Ilal with the following chain:  1- My father (rah) said: Sa`d bin `Abdullah told us, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from Muhammad bin abi `Umayr, from Hamad, from al-Halabi, from abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام)

Your point? 

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43 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

He (the narrator) said that `Ali used to say in `Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing anger at Fatimah for what she had done,

How many ahadith of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) you know about "anger"? 

Do you know the story of battle of trench when Amr bin Abdawad spit on the face of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) instead of cutting off his head, get off from his chest and after calming down his emotions, killed Amr? Why he (عليه السلام) get off instead of killing him (Amr) on the instant he spitted? 

How much do you know about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and how much you think Imam Ali (عليه السلام) know about Fatima s.a? 

So Imam Ali (عليه السلام), in your quoted hadith,

a) refusing to accept the statement of Syeda Fatima s.a (means he don't recognize Fatima s.a as "Siddiqah", is it even acceptable for you? )

b) showing his anger on Fatima s.a and not only that he further went on to show his anger on Fatima s.a to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (Means Imam (عليه السلام) has no knowledge whatsoever and neither he has any control over his emotions, is this even acceptable for you?) 

You show one million chains to me, show tawatur of these narrations but these types are wrong in my sight because Imam (عليه السلام) has the highest ma'rifah of Syeda Fatimah s.a. This reason alone should suffice. 

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3 minutes ago, Inspector said:

How many ahadith of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) you know about "anger"? 

Do you know the story of battle of trench when Amr bin Abdawad spit on the face of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Imam Ali (عليه السلام) instead of cutting off his head, get off from his chest and after calming down his emotions, killed Amr? Why he (عليه السلام) get off instead of killing him (Amr) on the instant he spitted? 

How much do you know about Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and how much you think Imam Ali (عليه السلام) know about Fatima s.a? 

So Imam Ali (عليه السلام), in your quoted hadith,

a) refusing to accept the statement of Syeda Fatima s.a (means he don't recognize Fatima s.a as "Siddiqah", is it even acceptable for you? )

b) showing his anger on Fatima s.a and not only that he further went on to show his anger on Fatima s.a to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). (Means Imam (عليه السلام) has no knowledge whatsoever and neither he has any control over his emotions, is this even acceptable for you?) 

You show one million chains to me, show tawatur of these narrations but these types are wrong in my sight because Imam (عليه السلام) has the highest ma'rifah of Syeda Fatimah s.a. This reason alone should suffice. 

Or dear brother, what we have assumed about Sayeda Fatima sa, or what some assume, in believing she is Laylatul Qadr, she is the niche or lamp in the verse of Surah noor, she is ayatul Qursi, she is the one we should perform sujood in salah and cry ' O my master Fatima help me', and she hears all duas and grants the supplication of the supplicant...are lies.

 

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1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

The full narration for each please, the exact primary work that it is obtained from, and the chain of narrators inshaAllah.

lol, what you will do with that?

Do you not know Aimmah (عليه السلام) as نور الله?

Do you not know Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as نور الله? 

Have you never heard of hadith of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) about Laylatul Qadr? 

I remember you either made a thread to criticize that hadith or either have criticized this hadith somewhere on a thread. 

You asked about Ibrahim (عليه السلام), here is a hadith from the book of Ayatullah Barujurdi;

محمد بن وهبان عن محمد بن علي بن رحيم عن العباس بن محمد عن أبيه عن الحسن ابن علي ابن أبي حمزة البطائني عن أبيه عن أبي بصير قال سئل جابر الجعفي ابا عبد الله عليه السلام عن تفسير قوله تعالى وان من شيعته لإبراهيم فقال عليه السلام ان الله سبحانه لما خلق إبراهيم كشف له عن بصره فنظر فرأى نورا إلى جنب العرش فقال الهى ما هذا النور فقيل له هذا نور علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام ناصر ديني ورأى إلى جنبه ثلاثة أنوار فقال الهى وما هذه الأنوار فقيل له هذا نور فاطمة فطمت محبها من النار ونور ولديها الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام فقال الهى وارى تسعة أنوار قد حفوا بهم قيل يا إبراهيم هؤلاء الأئمة من ولد على وفاطمة فقال الهى وسيدي أرى أنوارا قد احدقوا بهم لا يحصى عددهم الا أنت قيل يا إبراهيم هؤلاء شيعتهم شيعة أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام فقال إبراهيم عليه السلام وبما يعرف شيعته قال بصلاة الإحدى وخمسين والجهر ببسم الله الرحمن الرحيم والقنوت قبل الركوع والتختم باليمين

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1579_جامع-أحاديث-الشيعة-السيد-البروجردي-ج-٥/الصفحة_133#top

 

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2 minutes ago, Inspector said:

lol, what you will do with that?

Do you not know Aimmah (عليه السلام) as نور الله?

Do you not know Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as نور الله? 

Have you never heard of hadith of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) about Laylatul Qadr? 

I remember you either made a thread to criticize that hadith or either have criticized this hadith somewhere on a thread. 

You asked about Ibrahim (عليه السلام), here is a hadith from the book of Ayatullah Barujurdi;

محمد بن وهبان عن محمد بن علي بن رحيم عن العباس بن محمد عن أبيه عن الحسن ابن علي ابن أبي حمزة البطائني عن أبيه عن أبي بصير قال سئل جابر الجعفي ابا عبد الله عليه السلام عن تفسير قوله تعالى وان من شيعته لإبراهيم فقال عليه السلام ان الله سبحانه لما خلق إبراهيم كشف له عن بصره فنظر فرأى نورا إلى جنب العرش فقال الهى ما هذا النور فقيل له هذا نور علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام ناصر ديني ورأى إلى جنبه ثلاثة أنوار فقال الهى وما هذه الأنوار فقيل له هذا نور فاطمة فطمت محبها من النار ونور ولديها الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام فقال الهى وارى تسعة أنوار قد حفوا بهم قيل يا إبراهيم هؤلاء الأئمة من ولد على وفاطمة فقال الهى وسيدي أرى أنوارا قد احدقوا بهم لا يحصى عددهم الا أنت قيل يا إبراهيم هؤلاء شيعتهم شيعة أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام فقال إبراهيم عليه السلام وبما يعرف شيعته قال بصلاة الإحدى وخمسين والجهر ببسم الله الرحمن الرحيم والقنوت قبل الركوع والتختم باليمين

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1579_جامع-أحاديث-الشيعة-السيد-البروجردي-ج-٥/الصفحة_133#top

 

Ayatollah Barjurdi lived 1300 plus years after the Imams, can you please cite the primary source?

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3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Or dear brother, what we have assumed about Sayeda Fatima sa, or what some assume, in believing she is Laylatul Qadr

Don't burden your poor intellect by "assuming" things on your own. Just try to understand how the kunniyah of a daughter be "ام ابيها" ? 

Don't burden your poor intellect in understanding that some people are divine lights.  

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2 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Ayatollah Barjurdi lived 1300 plus years after the Imams, can you please cite the primary source?

If you look at his book, you will find the primary sources right there lol. 

Ya Allah!! It is getting difficult. 

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2 minutes ago, Inspector said:

If you look at his book, you will find the primary sources right there lol. 

Ya Allah!! It is getting difficult. 

Brother, i asked you earlier when referencing to do a few key , but simple things:

1. When you cite a source, list the primary source

2. Do not post or copy and paste links to books

 

Could you kindly please share with us the primary source? Citing a book 1300 years after the Imams is not a primary source.

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10 minutes ago, Inspector said:

علي ابن أبي حمزة

Also as Sunnism has noted, look at what is said about this individual, who by the way, is a liar, and the founder of the Waqifi cult.

32 - علي بن أبي حمزة - لعنه الله -. أصل الوقف، وأشد الخلق عداوة للولي من بعد أبي إبراهيم (عليهما السلام).

32 – ʿAlī b. Abī Ḥamza – may God curse him – the root of Waqf (ie. a founder of the Wāqifī sect), the most intense of creation in enmity to the Walī after Abū Ibrāhīm . عليه السلام

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/17/17/32

This man is also responsible for another very strange hadith about Sayeda Fatima, in which the Imam allegedly when sick calls out to Sayeda Fatima.

 

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8 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Don't burden your poor intellect by "assuming" things on your own. Just try to understand how the kunniyah of a daughter be "ام ابيها" ? 

Don't burden your poor intellect in understanding that some people are divine lights.  

Mother of her Father, if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even uttered it, was due to the care Sayeda Fatima sa had for the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). She cared for, looked after, and honoured her father so much, it was as if her love was so great to be that of a mother. 

But instead, dear brother, are you going to reveal to us the secret / divine and hidden meaning of which there is no real reliable evidence as to how this means something entirely different?

Remember brother, there is severe divine punishment possible for making exagerrated claims about the Ahlulbayt, or claims neither they nor the Prophet made. It's a serious issue that can have eternal consequences.

Edited by In Gods Name
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8 minutes ago, sunnism said:

Ali bin abi hamza is very weak narrator

Yes, he is waqafi, but he is not born waqafi lol. And if you look at the book referred, there are tons of ahadith mentioning Ma'someen (عليه السلام) as نور الله.

9 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

 

1. When you cite a source, list the primary source

2. Do not post or copy and paste links to books

Primary source is mentioned in the same book as;

2611 - (19) مستدرك 279 - الشيخ شرف الدين النجفي تلميذ المحقق الكركي في تأويل الآيات الباهرة

The same is present in Bihar

٠ - تأويل الآيات الباهرة: نقلا من تفسير محمد بن العباس بن ماهيار عن محمد بن وهبان، عن محمد بن علي بن رجيم، عن العباس بن محمد، عن أبيه، عن الحسن ابن علي بن أبي حمزة البطائني، عن أبيه، عن أبي بصير قال: سأل جابر الجعفي أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن تفسير قوله تعالى: ﴿وإن من شيعته لإبراهيم﴾ 

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1513_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٨٢/الصفحة_81#top

Now the only thing left is that I take out the book تأويل الآيات الباهرة and quote directly from there lol. 

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6 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Yes, he is waqafi, but he is not born waqafi lol. And if you look at the book referred, there are tons of ahadith mentioning Ma'someen (عليه السلام) as نور الله.

He was not just a Waqifi, he was the founder of the cult. 

32 - علي بن أبي حمزة - لعنه الله -. أصل الوقف، وأشد الخلق عداوة للولي من بعد أبي إبراهيم (عليهما السلام).

32 – ʿAlī b. Abī Ḥamza – may God curse him – the root of Waqf (ie. a founder of the Wāqifī sect), the most intense of creation in enmity to the Walī after Abū Ibrāhīm . عليه السلام

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/17/17/32

Hitler wasn't born Hitler either. 

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8 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Yes, he is waqafi, but he is not born waqafi lol. And if you look at the book referred, there are tons of ahadith mentioning Ma'someen (عليه السلام) as نور الله.

Primary source is mentioned in the same book as;

2611 - (19) مستدرك 279 - الشيخ شرف الدين النجفي تلميذ المحقق الكركي في تأويل الآيات الباهرة

The same is present in Bihar

٠ - تأويل الآيات الباهرة: نقلا من تفسير محمد بن العباس بن ماهيار عن محمد بن وهبان، عن محمد بن علي بن رجيم، عن العباس بن محمد، عن أبيه، عن الحسن ابن علي بن أبي حمزة البطائني، عن أبيه، عن أبي بصير قال: سأل جابر الجعفي أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن تفسير قوله تعالى: ﴿وإن من شيعته لإبراهيم﴾ 

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1513_بحار-الأنوار-العلامة-المجلسي-ج-٨٢/الصفحة_81#top

Now the only thing left is that I take out the book تأويل الآيات الباهرة and quote directly from there lol. 

Bihar is not a primary source. 

Nevertheless it is weak.

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12 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Mother of her Father, if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even uttered it, was due to the care Sayeda Fatima sa had for the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). She cared for, looked after, and honoured her father so much, it was as if her love was so great to be that of a mother. 

Ever heard of hadith e qudsi;

لولاك (يا محمد) ما خلقت الأفلاك ولولا علي لما خلقتك، ولولا فاطمة لما خلقتكما جميعاً.

?? How you understand the phrase 

ولولا فاطمة لما خلقتكما

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2 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:
10 minutes ago, Inspector said:

 

He was not just a Waqifi

He was a waqifi just like someone was a zaydiyyah yet we accept the ahadith. Remember chain is not the only tool to assess the reliability of any hadith.  

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Just now, Inspector said:

Ever heard of hadith e qudsi;

لولاك (يا محمد) ما خلقت الأفلاك ولولا علي لما خلقتك، ولولا فاطمة لما خلقتكما جميعاً.

?? How you understand the phrase 

ولولا فاطمة لما خلقتكما

To claim that if it wasn't for Sayeda Fatima, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not have created Prophet saw or Ali as is laughable.

Once again , not only is is utterly odd, what is the primary source and what is the chain of narrators?

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1 minute ago, Inspector said:

He was a waqifi just like someone was a zaydiyyah yet we accept the ahadith. Remember chain is not the only tool to assess the reliability of any hadith.  

He wasn't just a Waqifi. He was an enemy of Imam Ridha, and one of the main founders of the Waqifi sect, a liar and a fabricator and one of the biggest enemies of Imam al-Ridha.

Look at how low the standards of evidence have dropped.

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