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Order of superiority according to shi'ites

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Speak of "taking English classes". lol

Wa alaikum salam meedy. From my encounter with debate seekers, I presume they are talking about who Mr. Better is in their eyes.

So probably we are supposed to say; Prophets and then Companions and than Tabeen etc.

Even though, logically the one in lower status, can not determine the higher levels of the servants of God and compare them.

So, unless Allah (subhanahu wa taala) and Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) say something about it, people can not deduce conclusions from their limited outlook.

And we have Quranic verses and Prophetic Narrations in shiite sources, that say; that the highest in level are first, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a) and then Ulul Azm Prophets. And then Prophets ((عليه السلام)) and Imams ((عليه السلام)) and then awliya, asfiya, shuhada ((رضي الله عنه)) etc.

 

Edited by islamicmusic
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41 minutes ago, islamicmusic said:

Even though, logically the one in lower status, can not determine the higher levels of the servants of God and compare them.

So, unless Allah (subhanahu wa taala) and Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) say something about it, people can not deduce conclusions from their limited outlook.

And we have Quranic verses and Prophetic Narrations in shiite sources, that say; that the highest in level are first, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a) and then Ulul Azm Prophets. And then Prophets ((عليه السلام)) and Imams ((عليه السلام)) and then awliya, asfiya, shuhada ((رضي الله عنه)) etc.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

English is my 3rd language so sometimes I can get things wrong :blush:

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I mean what is the order of superiority of individuals in shi'i tradition. We know shi'ites believe the the best is our prophet then ali bin abi talib. Then who? Is it hasan Or is it fatima? 

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For these Sunnis, they equally say that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is the greatest of All Prophets (عليه السلام) but at the same time you can not grade them either. Do not fall for his nonsense trap. Does it make any sense to ask a Question who is better among the five greatest prophets? Nuh (عليه السلام) or Isa (عليه السلام). Musa (عليه السلام) or Isa. Nuh or Ibrahim (عليه السلام), Ibrahim or Isa...

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26 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

For these Sunnis, they equally say that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is the greatest of All Prophets (عليه السلام) but at the same time you can not grade them either. Do not fall for his nonsense trap. Does it make any sense to ask a Question who is better among the five greatest prophets? Nuh (عليه السلام) or Isa (عليه السلام). Musa (عليه السلام) or Isa. Nuh or Ibrahim (عليه السلام), Ibrahim or Isa...

Sunnis don't differentiate between them in terms of prophethood. As far as ranking them, then ahlus sunnah are unanimous on prophet Muhammad being best of creation then ibrahim then Musa then Eisa then Nuh then all prophets. 

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12 minutes ago, sunnism said:

Sunnis don't differentiate between them in terms of prophethood. As far as ranking them, then ahlus sunnah are unanimous on prophet Muhammad being best of creation then ibrahim then Musa then Eisa then Nuh then all prophets. 

Do you have narrations from Prophet Muhammad (saws) that that is the correct order?

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23 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Do you have narrations from Prophet Muhammad (saws) that that is the correct order?

There is a hadeeth which says prophet is the master of all people, then there is a hadeeth that says ibraheem is the best then there is a hadeeth which says allah chose Musa over his creation. Based on this ahadeeth ahlus sunnah reached consensus on this issue. Scholars reconciled these evidences. As far as eisa and nuh, I don't know any hadeeth, there is only consensus. 

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2 minutes ago, sunnism said:

There is a hadeeth which says prophet is the master of all people, then there is a hadeeth that says ibraheem is the best then there is a hadeeth which says allah chose Musa over his creation. Based on this ahadeeth ahlus sunnah reached consensus on this issue. Scholars reconciled these evidences. As far as eisa and nuh, I don't know any hadeeth, there is only consensus. 

I don't see any problem in this, we can have our scholar consensus about these matters. The same is also applied about Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Some scholars may reach their consensus which is better, but only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows the best. You brought earlier about that they don't differ in Prophethood, I think that is the most important matter which goes alongside 2:285. We say that they have same understanding, laws and message:

3 - أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن علي بن إسماعيل، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن الحارث بن المغيرة، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: نحن في الامر والفهم والحلال والحرام نجري مجرى واحد، فأما رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وعلي عليه السلام فلهما فضلهما.

H 728, Ch. 58, h 3
Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Ali ibn Isma‘il from Safwan ibn Yahya from ibn Muskan from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah who has narrated the following from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).). "We in the matters of commands, understanding, lawful and unlawful all are alike and the same. However, the Messenger of Allah and Ali ((عليه السلام).) have their own virtue and excellence."

(AlKafi, Vol 1, Part 4, Ch 58)

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16 hours ago, sunnism said:

What is the order of superiority in shi'i tradition. 

Prophet Muhammed saw, Ulul-Azam Prophets, Prophets, then Awliya like the Imams

However i personally lean to this but i leave the matter to Allah ultimately and do not preach one view or the other as ultimate truth, i just preach against the Idea that the Imams are definitely superior etc

 

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16 hours ago, sunnism said:

What is the order of superiority in shi'i tradition. 

As a Shi’a, I’d say Goku > Vegeta > Gohan.

6 hours ago, sunnism said:

I mean what is the order of superiority of individuals in shi'i tradition. We know shi'ites believe the the best is our prophet then ali bin abi talib. Then who? Is it hasan Or is it fatima? 

Perhaps if you can state reasons as to why you need to know this, you’ll get better answers. 

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27 minutes ago, Shian e Ali said:

As a Shi’a, I’d say Goku > Vegeta > Gohan.

Perhaps if you can state reasons as to why you need to know this, you’ll get better answers. 

I'd argue it's Gohan > Goku > Vegeta

Gohan never fulfilled his true potential

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2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't see any problem in this, we can have our scholar consensus about these matters. The same is also applied about Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Some scholars may reach their consensus which is better, but only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows the best. You brought earlier about that they don't differ in Prophethood, I think that is the most important matter which goes alongside 2:285. We say that they have same understanding, laws and message:

3 - أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن علي بن إسماعيل، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن الحارث بن المغيرة، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: نحن في الامر والفهم والحلال والحرام نجري مجرى واحد، فأما رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وعلي عليه السلام فلهما فضلهما.

H 728, Ch. 58, h 3
Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Ali ibn Isma‘il from Safwan ibn Yahya from ibn Muskan from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah who has narrated the following from Abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).). "We in the matters of commands, understanding, lawful and unlawful all are alike and the same. However, the Messenger of Allah and Ali ((عليه السلام).) have their own virtue and excellence."

(AlKafi, Vol 1, Part 4, Ch 58)

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets. You consider imamate to the highest position. Then how could fatima could be better than ibrahim who is both a prophet and an imam. 

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13 minutes ago, sunnism said:

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets. You consider imamate to the highest position. Then how could fatima could be better than ibrahim who is both a prophet and an imam. 

We don't consider Sayeda Fatima as to be higher than Prophets.

Shaykh Tusi said there are three opinions in the Shia school - and he himself does not adhere to any. 

It is not part of the fundamentals to affirm this belief.

I don't believe Imams are superior to Prophets. I affirm the Quran in terms of the Ulul-Azam being above the rest, and i view the rank of Prophethood completely different to the one of Ahlulbayt/Imam of the Ummah to preserve the Sunnah.

And then i leave the matter to Allah.

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15 minutes ago, sunnism said:

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets. You consider imamate to the highest position. Then how could fatima could be better than ibrahim who is both a prophet and an imam. 

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:
عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.
"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

Shaykh At-Tusi states there are different opinions, and the Aql can not prove it, and he personally withholds from having an opinion and refers the matter to Allah. Although he does say as a Shia it is permissible to believe according to his opinion that Imams are greater than all apart from one.

If you are a Shia you can also take the safe road and refer the matter to Allah because the Riwayah all give varying views and reason itself can't prove this. 

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1 minute ago, In Gods Name said:

We don't consider Sayeda Fatima as to be higher than Prophets.

Shaykh Tusi said there are three opinions in the Shia school - and he himself does not adhere to any. 

It is not part of the fundamentals to affirm this belief.

I don't believe Imams are superior to Prophets. I affirm the Quran in terms of the Ulul-Azam being above the rest, and i view the rank of Prophethood completely different to the one of Ahlulbayt/Imam of the Ummah to preserve the Sunnah.

And then i leave the matter to Allah.

I didn't knew that

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Just now, sunnism said:

I didn't knew that

I really recommend checking out these speakers:

-Shaykh Arif - Imam Mahdi institute lead UK

-Shaykh Yasser Awdah

-Sayed Muhammed Hussain Fadallah

-Sayed Kamal al-Hayderi

-Sayed Ali Kampanpoori of al-Islah 

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13 hours ago, sunnism said:

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets. You consider imamate to the highest position. Then how could fatima could be better than ibrahim who is both a prophet and an imam. 

Salam at first position of prophet  Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been proven by shias which also shows status of infallible Imams which prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) after passing difficult trials have reached to position of Imam which has been higher than his position as the prophet.secondly  position of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) only can be compared with position of prophet Muhammad(pbu) whose position has been higher than all of prophets even prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has called her as "mother of her father" ie prophet Muahammad (pbu)  which she has been only mate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) , in similar fashion Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has been her only mate  which their position has been likewise two seas which don't overstep each other ; also Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has mentioned his most favorit merit as being "husband of Batool (Fatima)" therefore 

position of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) toward other prophets is equivalent to  position of prophet Muhammad (pbu) toward other prophets even prophet ibrahim (عليه السلام) which people only will understand her position in judgment day .

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Fatima (عليه السلام) is the one whom the Prophet (SA) emphasized in numerous occasions that “Fatima is part of mewhoever annoys her annoys me and whoever harms her harms me." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad)

The Prophet (SA) greets Fatima (عليه السلام) by highlighting the fact that she is his “daughter” and “part of his flesh”. As for him mentioning that she is his daughter, it is not a new piece of information to her or to us who will recite and propagate this tradition till the end of time. Then, why does the Prophet (SA) stress what is already obvious?

 

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مَرَجَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ يَلْتَقِيَانِ ‎﴿١٩﴾‏ بَيْنَهُمَا بَرْزَخٌ لَّا يَبْغِيَانِ ‎﴿٢٠﴾

He merged the two seas, meeting each other. (19) There is a barrier between them, which they do not overstep. (20)

 

Ibne Abbas (رضي الله عنه) narrates regarding this ayah, “He has made the two seas flow freely so that They meet each other” (55:19), “ This ayah refers to Moula Ali (asws) and Syeda (sa).

There is a curtain between Them so They do not cross each other. RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said,The pearls came out of these oceans, and that is Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).”

(Tafseer e Furat)

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Jafar bin Muhammad narrates regarding this ayah, “Between Them is a barrier which They cannot pass” (55:20), “Imam (عليه السلام) said, “Ameerul Momineen (asws) and Syeda (sa) are two deep oceans, and neither crosses the other.”

(Tafseer e Furat pg 46)

 

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30. Bal al Batool (husband of Batool sa)

Moula Ali (asws) says in Khutba Bayan, “I am the husband of Batool (sa)”.

https://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=963&page=5

 

 

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According to Sunni traditional and exegetical sources, more than 135 verses in 49 chapters and two complete chapters (Dahr and Kawthar) are related to Lady Fatima’s persona.

 

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 According to Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, Lady Fatima (s.a.) is the leader of the ladies of Paradise

 

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In Tafseer Nishapuri14 and Seerate Muhammadiya15, Jabir Ansari is recorded to have stated that due to poverty, the Holy Prophet (S) did not eat anything. He went to his wives, but could not get anything. At last, he came to his daughter’s house and asked for something to eat. Lady Fatima (s.a.) said that she had nothing. So the Messenger of Allah (S) moved away from there. After his departure, a tray of food arrived from Paradise. Lady Fatima (s.a.) asked Hasan and Husayn ((عليه السلام).) to go to their grandfather and call him back.

The Holy Prophet (S) came along with them to Lady Sayyida’s house and asked for the tray. The tray was full of mutton and bread. They all had the food as a feast from Allah and became very happy and thanked Allah. She kept that tray before the Messenger of Allah (S). The Messenger of Allah (S) asked where it has come from? This was the same question that Prophet Zakariya ((عليه السلام).) asked Lady Maryam (s.a.) at the time of her pregnancy, as mentioned in Surah Aale Imran. Fatima Zahra (s.a.) replied, “It is the sustenance given by Allah.” And the same reply was of Maryam ((عليه السلام).) to the question of Prophet Zakariya ((عليه السلام).).

Thus, the Holy Prophet (S), Lady Fatima (s.a.), His Eminence, Ali ((عليه السلام).), Hasan and Husayn ((عليه السلام).) and some wives of the Prophet ate to satiation, but the food in the tray did not deplete. Obviously, since it was a feast from Allah

 

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 she is the one whose pleasure is a sign of Allah’s pleasure and whose wrath is a sign of Allah’s wrath. 

Fatima’s Position before God

In various traditions, Prophet Muhammad has said: “Verily, God becomes angered when Fatima is angered, and He is pleased when Fatima is pleased.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 43, p. 54)

Muslim of all schools with any belief have narrated this Prophetic statement:” Fatimah is a part of me. Anyone who annoys her has annoyed me.”(Elal Asharaia, Vol.1, P.186). On the other hand, the Glorious Quran states that Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) never says something with carnal desire and all his sayings are revelation (53:3-4), so we obtain that praising Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has a reason beyond emotions of a father and daughter. Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) pointed out this fact himself and told the cavillers:” Allah has ordered me to act like that”. He said:” I savoir smell of heaven from her.”(Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol.43, P.6)

 

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The Prophet (s) took Lady Fatima (a) as a proof of his prophethood for Mubahalah.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

Allama Majlisi has related in his magnum opus Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 43, p. 24 that Prophet Muhammad said: “Fatima is the leader of the women of the worlds from the first to the last.

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When she stands in the prayer niche, twenty thousand angels greet her and address her like they addressed Mary. They say, ‘O Fatima, verily God has chosen you and purified you and has chosen you above the women of the worlds.’ And they are from the close angels.”

In the same book, it is related that Prophet Muhammad was asked if Fatima is the leader of the women of this world. He replied: “Mary, daughter of Amran, is the leader of the women of this world, my daughter Fatima is the leader of the women of all the worlds.”

 

Her marriage

Fatimah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had many suitors.

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Umar and Abubakr as two of most famous companions of the Holy Prophet asked for her hand in marriage. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) replied: “Allah has her authority”. Anas ibn Malik says that Uthman and Abd al-Rahman ibn Ouf did the same and volunteered to pay a high dowry (marriage portion). At that time, 

Gabriel descended to Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) and said:” Muhammad! Allah sends regards and orders: “Marry Fatimah to Ali”. Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) asked for Fatima’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) hand in marriage and Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) agreed on this marriage according to divine will. It is mentioned in the narratives that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) said:” If Ali didn’t exist, there would be no mate for Fatimah”.

Lady Fatima’s position as daughter of the Messenger of God was forgotten when a group of unjust individuals from the Prophet’s companions attacked her house and entered it without her permission. 

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2. This position of Fatima is also used to defend the leadership (Wilayah) and right of Imam Ali (peace be upon her). In reality, Fatima is the first defender of Wilayah. Her defense of her husband and his God-given rights eventually led to her being attacked in her own home and being martyred as a result of her injuries. Her anger with her attackers and those who usurped her husband’s rights led her to request her husband to bury her at night, so that those who angered her do not attend her funeral and pray over her body.

In doing so, Lady Fatima left an eternal question in the hearts of all truth seekers: why was the only remaining daughter of the Prophet of Islam buried at night and why is her grave unknown?

https://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/clergy-corner/lady-fatima-al-zahra.html

https://en.al-shia.org/lady-fatimah-zahra-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)/

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

https://www.al-islam.org/brief-commentary-hadeeth-al-kisaa-tradition-cloak-jerrmein-abu-shahba/lady-fatima-flesh-holy-prophet

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/excellence-chief-ladies-fatima-zahra

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

https://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=963&page=5

 

Lady Fatima’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) position in the Prophet’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) opinion

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/8808/Lady-Fatima-s-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-position-in-the-Prophet-s-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-opinion

 

 

 

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In the twelver shi'i tradition, the Prophet (S) is superior in rank to all of the previous prophets, and to the rest of the inafallibles as well. This much is clearly established. Everything else is from the dhanniyaat and doesn't form a part of the qat'iyaat, and the classical scholars have different viewpoints on the issue. 

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14 hours ago, sunnism said:

I didn't knew that

Salam @In Gods Name doesn't reperesnt shia muslims here ; which he only has expressed weired belief according to his weired mindset which in many matters he has opposed shia beliefs by misinterpreting anything from Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) .

14 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

If you are a Shia you can also take the safe road and refer the matter to Allah because the Riwayah all give varying views and reason itself can't prove this. 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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15 hours ago, sunnism said:
17 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I asked this question as to why shi'i consider fatima to be better than prophets.

و ما ادراك مالفاطمة

May my soul be sacrificed for this great lady. She is among the secrets of divine secrets. Not only Shi'i but Sunni scholars prefer to stay quite about her status when they come to her kunniyah ام ابيها

الطبراني في "المعجم الكبير" (22 / 397)؛ حَدَّثَنَا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ فَهْمٍ، حدثنا مُصْعَبُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللهِ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ قَالَ: "كُنْيَةُ فَاطِمَةَ: أُمُّ أَبِيهَا". 

قال الذهبي رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة رضي الله عنها. وهي سيدة نساء هذه الأمة. 

كنيتها، فيما بلغنا: أم أبيها

قال الحافظ ابن حجر رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة الزّهراء بنت إمام المتقين رسول اللَّه محمد بن عبد اللَّه بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم، الهاشميّة، صلّى اللَّه على أبيها وآله وسلّم ورضي عنها.

كانت تكنى أمَّ أبيها.

 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam @In Gods Name doesn't reperesnt shia muslims here ; which he only has expressed weired belief according to his weired mindset which in many matters he has opposed shia beliefs by misinterpreting anything from Sheikh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) .

 

With all due respect, your beliefs seem largely shaped by your geographical region. This isn't in my view if my judgement is fair, the way to ascertain truth. Your political views to the point of even minor points in religion seem to be very rigid and mirroring where you live geographically.

It would be convenient, almost comforting if we had been lucky enough to be born into not only a religion, not only a sect, but a group within the sect and even to the point of a scholar within that group within that sect within that religion and be on the truth in every area.

But this is fantasy.

Look at the evolution and history of both Sunnis and Shias. 

We Shias had Akhbaris reign supreme and claim the Quran was distorted. We had rival schools in Baghdad and Qom, to the point where modern day scholar 'Ayatollah' Mamqani who is a very traditional scholar said that if many of the modern day scholars went into the classical period in Q'om they would have been exiled from Q'om.

<>

Nevertheless, i have not misinterpreted Tusi.

Here is what he said himself:

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:
عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.
"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

 

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1 hour ago, Inspector said:

و ما ادراك مالفاطمة

May my soul be sacrificed for this great lady. She is among the secrets of divine secrets. Not only Shi'i but Sunni scholars prefer to stay quite about her status when they come to her kunniyah ام ابيها

الطبراني في "المعجم الكبير" (22 / 397)؛ حَدَّثَنَا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ فَهْمٍ، حدثنا مُصْعَبُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللهِ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ قَالَ: "كُنْيَةُ فَاطِمَةَ: أُمُّ أَبِيهَا". 

قال الذهبي رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة رضي الله عنها. وهي سيدة نساء هذه الأمة. 

كنيتها، فيما بلغنا: أم أبيها

قال الحافظ ابن حجر رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة الزّهراء بنت إمام المتقين رسول اللَّه محمد بن عبد اللَّه بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم، الهاشميّة، صلّى اللَّه على أبيها وآله وسلّم ورضي عنها.

كانت تكنى أمَّ أبيها.

 

While there is no doubt Sayeda Fatima sa is one of the greatest women and human beings to have ever existed, and we should hold nothing but the deepest reverence for the daughter of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), at the same time, i do have reservations when it comes to Ghuluw.

You have people who advocate the Salat of Fatima, which is literally going into Sujood and while prostrating crying 'O Fatima help me'.

You then have similar to what Christians and many other religious groups do with venerated female saints and personalities, and go into excess and exagerration.

So this is what we find done. Fatima sa has now become this incomprehensible entity of divine secrets, she apparently grants duas, hears our supplications, apparently some now claim she is Laylatul Qadr itself.

Little do they know the worst abuse of Sayeda Fatima sa is lying on her and using weak evidence and exaggerating her status, to the point is comes into direct conflict with Tawheed itself.

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam at first position of prophet  Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has been proven by shias which also shows status of infallible Imams which prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) after passing difficult trials have reached to position of Imam which has been higher than his position as the prophet.secondly  position of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) only can be compared with position of prophet Muhammad(pbu) whose position has been higher than all of prophets even prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has called her as "mother of her father" ie prophet Muahammad (pbu)  which she has been only mate of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) , in similar fashion Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has been her only mate  which their position has been likewise two seas which don't overstep each other ; also Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has mentioned his most favorit merit as being "husband of Batool (Fatima)" therefore 

position of lady Fatima (عليه السلام) toward other prophets is equivalent to  position of prophet Muhammad (pbu) toward other prophets even prophet ibrahim (عليه السلام) which people only will understand her position in judgment day .

 

He merged the two seas, meeting each other. (19) There is a barrier between them, which they do not overstep. (20)

 

Ibne Abbas (رضي الله عنه) narrates regarding this ayah, “He has made the two seas flow freely so that They meet each other” (55:19), “ This ayah refers to Moula Ali (asws) and Syeda (sa).

There is a curtain between Them so They do not cross each other. RasoolAllah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said,The pearls came out of these oceans, and that is Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).”

(Tafseer e Furat)

 

https://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=963&page=5

 

 

 

 

 

Muslim of all schools with any belief have narrated this Prophetic statement:” Fatimah is a part of me. Anyone who annoys her has annoyed me.”(Elal Asharaia, Vol.1, P.186). On the other hand, the Glorious Quran states that Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) never says something with carnal desire and all his sayings are revelation (53:3-4), so we obtain that praising Fatima ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) has a reason beyond emotions of a father and daughter. Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) pointed out this fact himself and told the cavillers:” Allah has ordered me to act like that”. He said:” I savoir smell of heaven from her.”(Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol.43, P.6)

 

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

Allama Majlisi has related in his magnum opus Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 43, p. 24 that Prophet Muhammad said: “Fatima is the leader of the women of the worlds from the first to the last.

In the same book, it is related that Prophet Muhammad was asked if Fatima is the leader of the women of this world. He replied: “Mary, daughter of Amran, is the leader of the women of this world, my daughter Fatima is the leader of the women of all the worlds.”

 

Her marriage

Fatimah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had many suitors.

Gabriel descended to Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) and said:” Muhammad! Allah sends regards and orders: “Marry Fatimah to Ali”. Imam Ali ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) asked for Fatima’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) hand in marriage and Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) agreed on this marriage according to divine will. It is mentioned in the narratives that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&HP) said:” If Ali didn’t exist, there would be no mate for Fatimah”.

Lady Fatima’s position as daughter of the Messenger of God was forgotten when a group of unjust individuals from the Prophet’s companions attacked her house and entered it without her permission. 

https://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/clergy-corner/lady-fatima-al-zahra.html

https://en.al-shia.org/lady-fatimah-zahra-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)/

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

https://www.al-islam.org/brief-commentary-hadeeth-al-kisaa-tradition-cloak-jerrmein-abu-shahba/lady-fatima-flesh-holy-prophet

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/excellence-chief-ladies-fatima-zahra

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-3-autumn-2012/position-fatima-al-zahra-verse-mubahalah-sunni/position

https://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=963&page=5

 

Lady Fatima’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) position in the Prophet’s ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) opinion

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/8808/Lady-Fatima-s-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-position-in-the-Prophet-s-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-opinion

 

 

 

None of this proves that she is better than ibrahim. Chose one, either imamate is the highest rank or not. If yes then ibrahim (عليه السلام) is better than her, if not then imamate is note the highest position

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2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

at the same time, i do have reservations when it comes to Ghuluw.

Is there any ghuluw what has been said by me up there? 

3 hours ago, Inspector said:

و ما ادراك مالفاطمة

May my soul be sacrificed for this great lady. She is among the secrets of divine secrets. Not only Shi'i but Sunni scholars prefer to stay quite about her status when they come to her kunniyah ام ابيها

الطبراني في "المعجم الكبير" (22 / 397)؛ حَدَّثَنَا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ فَهْمٍ، حدثنا مُصْعَبُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللهِ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ قَالَ: "كُنْيَةُ فَاطِمَةَ: أُمُّ أَبِيهَا". 

قال الذهبي رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة رضي الله عنها. وهي سيدة نساء هذه الأمة. 

كنيتها، فيما بلغنا: أم أبيها

قال الحافظ ابن حجر رحمه الله تعالى:

"فاطمة الزّهراء بنت إمام المتقين رسول اللَّه محمد بن عبد اللَّه بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم، الهاشميّة، صلّى اللَّه على أبيها وآله وسلّم ورضي عنها.

كانت تكنى أمَّ أبيها.

 

Why you are bringing ghuluw here? So we also have muqassir who don't even believe in the "ismah". 

Are we discussing the ghulw or taqsir here? 

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1 hour ago, sunnism said:

None of this proves that she is better than ibrahim. Chose one, either imamate is the highest rank or not. If yes then ibrahim (عليه السلام) is better than her, if not then imamate is note the highest position

Nobody has provided me any valid evidence to prove Sayeda Fatima sa is higher in rank than Ibraim as

 

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2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Fatima sa has now become this incomprehensible entity of divine secrets

So ليلة القدر is incomprehensible for you?

So someone being مشكاة becomes incomprehensible for you? So someone being ام ابيها becomes incomprehensible for you?

قليلا ما تذكرون

 

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2 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Is there any ghuluw what has been said by me up there? 

Why you are bringing ghuluw here? So we also have muqassir who don't even believe in the "ismah". 

Are we discussing the ghulw or taqsir here? 

"She is among the secrets of divine secrets"

What does this mean and where's the authentic evidence?

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8 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Nobody has provided me any valid evidence to prove Sayeda Fatima sa is higher in rank than Ibraim as

lol, 

إِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي

Fatima سلام الله عليها is بضعة of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), she is among the ones for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said انهم مني و انا منهم. And she is the wife of successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the one who said this;

رُوِيَ عن الامام أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام أنه قال: " لَوْ كُشِفَ‏ [لِيَ‏] الْغِطَاءُ مَا ازْدَدْتُ يَقِيناً"

You are among the ones who are falling short in recognizing the divine signs. 

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1 minute ago, Inspector said:

lol, 

إِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي

Fatima سلام الله عليها is بضعة of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), she is among the ones for whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said انهم مني و انا منهم. And she is the wife of successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the one who said this;

رُوِيَ عن الامام أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام أنه قال: " لَوْ كُشِفَ‏ [لِيَ‏] الْغِطَاءُ مَا ازْدَدْتُ يَقِيناً"

You are among the ones who are falling short in recognizing the divine signs. 

Yet no statement whatsoever has been given brother, regarding her status as being higher than the Prophets of God.

Hypothetically on the day of judgement if Sayeda Fatima denies this claim you have made about her, what would your reply be?

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Just now, In Gods Name said:

Yet no statement whatsoever has been given brother, regarding her status as being higher than the Prophets of God.

lol, changing the goal post now, from Ibrahim (عليه السلام), you suddenly changed to "prophets of God". 

:hahaha:

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