Living in the West

[ali_fatheroforphans]

Salam Alaykum,

Sometimes I meet people back in the East (in Muslim countries) who idolise the West a bit too much and feel that migrating here will make their life perfect. Obviously someone living in poverty or harsh conditions or during war will want to get out and that is fine. But sometimes even people who live in alright conditions feel that moving abroad is a very noble sacrifice for the future generations. Not necessarily. 

I have personally lived both back in the East (Muslim country) and also in the West. There are some downsides for living in the West.

Although sin is everywhere, the problem with Western societies is that it is normalised and openly committed in addition to being committed in private settings. Whereas in Muslim countries, yes you still have sin everywhere one could argue, but generally it is not as widely accepted and there is still some level of protection. By sin I mean the notable ones such as alcohol, lack of modest dressing, free mixing, music, dancing, sins related to sexuality etc. 

The biggest issue is that the whole structure of society is one where God is not in the picture. Let me put it this way, we live in a godless society in the West. By this I don't mean some individuals but that the whole society operates on this assumption that there is no God. On an individual level one constantly feels disconnected to God because that is how the society operates. God is is made alien to people. So the society slowly pulls us away from God based on the natural current. So if one goes with the flow and does not put in the effort, one is likely to be pulled in that direction. Our spirituality in the West is constantly under threat in my opinion and one has to protect it with twice as much force. Consequently becoming absent minded opens the door to many sins. 

Okay does that mean that we just ditch the West altogether? It depends on the individual and our purpose and intention. If we are just migrating to the West for the sake of it, for example just material wealth and a luxury lifestyle, then our priorities aren't right. I would argue if one earns an alright income it would be better to enjoy their time back home and also be in a more Godly environment. Protecting our faith firstly and then the faith of our families and future generations is a very noble goal. If one cannot do that in the West and doesn't have that level of confidence yet willingly migrates, then they have not set their priorities right.

If one wants to go for this noble aim of converting non-Muslims to Islam (while they take care of themselves and their families). Ask yourself that in your lifetime, how many non-Muslims have you converted and will in the future ? Be honest with yourselves. There are many who are doing great work in the West in terms of tabligh and they will be rewarded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But there are some who have little to no interactions and are locked up in their little masajid and husayniyas. Then these same people complain about their children being led astray. I would argue that what are they doing in the West in the first place (with the assumption that they did not flee their countries due to poverty, war etc.). 

Just thought to share these thoughts I had. Feel free to comment or share any thoughts you want to add to this post. It is worth reading the opinions of our fuqaha in the field of jurisprudence on this issue of migrating to other countries. 

 

Edited January 20, 2024 by ali_fatheroforphans

[Andaros]

WE ARE LEAVING CANADA & HERE'S WHY.  (Muslim couple)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba65tdu6JQQ&t=513s

 

[123xo]

Truth is majourity of people are not satisfied whether they live in the west or east or down under. People always think it's greener on the other side, just not where they are. 

Edited January 20, 2024 by 123xo

[Diaz]

What you are saying is true brother. I was one of these guys too, was planning to immigrate to the west but now I prefer to live in Yemen and cleaning people shoes than living in the west. If my good non Muslim friends who prefer to live in Muslims countries to protect their children then why me as a Muslim want to live in kufar countries? 
 

other thing you said about sinning is public is completely true, if you live in countries like Oman or Kuwait, they is a high chance people will judge you specifically the women if you did something immoral. Alcohol, porn, gambling etc are all forbidden. Any teachers who support Israel or teach anything related to the lgbt communities can get jailed and lose their teaching license. 

as a Muslim, I think it’s better for us Muslims to live in a majority Muslim countries where Islam rules. Living in a west to get a passport won’t benefits our akhira. 

5 hours ago, Andaros said:

WE ARE LEAVING CANADA & HERE'S WHY.  (Muslim couple)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba65tdu6JQQ&t=513s

 

I saw this few weeks ago, reading the comments made me glad they are planning to move. 

Edited January 20, 2024 by Diaz

[HaventCopedInSeconds]

I have contemplated this for a while, live in Toronto and saw degeneracy everywhere, trying to improve my faith was difficult especially in that zeitgeist. Even going to regular places like the gym or the mall presented hurdles, and had to be constantly wary of my gaze. Had to cut out several close friends, who though muslim, engage in modern activities. Visiting Sydney recently affirmed this (in general in the west) with how liberal people were in clothing, which makes sense because it is hotter, and that it is more degenerate than Toronto.

So I thought, when I get married and have kids, we would move to a muslim country to raise our family. However, I recently visited my home muslim country with my parents, and when talking to cousins, family and friends, I saw even living in a 'muslim' country doesn't save you from immorality. Most of my family in our home country were superficially religious, such that our family and friends in Toronto were of higher faith than those in our 'muslim' country. Combined with the extreme security and economic issues, this made me rethink leaving Canada.

Recently I found some excellent muslim communities around Toronto, where the people have good morals, ethics, faith, and stay away from harm. So, I think you can live in a western country and increase your faith: you surround yourself with a great and pious community, and stay away from places where sin is thriving (to an extreme like clubs, parties, etc.). And you can take steps to protect yourself in other environment, like now, I go to the gym at like 6am, I avoid seeing women this way (they aren't motivated enough to put on makeup that early for attention lol).

Besides, which muslim country would you even move to that is friendly to Shia's? My original thought was dubai/uae but you can't even practice publicly or attend any gatherings, places like Pakistan is even worse. Iran or Azerbaijan would be one option, but in Iran they don't even recognize credentials received from outside, and you can't work.

Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) lived during the times of Jahiliyya, which was worse than what we face in the west, so what excuse do I have, when the Prophet could establish a perfect character in such a time.

I came to the conclusion that after marriage I will raise my family here in Toronto, insulated by our family, friends and community and keep them away from immoral settings and build a strong foundation of faith. So even when they encounter the zeitgeist when older at uni or work, they have a internal pillar to stand on, and don't sway whichever way the wind blows. And if things get too out of control here, I'll move to an appropriate muslim country then.

[Shian e Ali]

Agreed, but in the experience of Muslims who feel that way, it’s easier to immigrate to Western countries with all the flashy lights and known ways than to Muslim countries.
 

Take Canada for example. They’re taking in around 500,000 people a year and plan to keep doing so for the next couple of years. 
 

Which Muslim countries, especially as a Shi’a, would you say are the best to immigrate to? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:49 PM, Diaz said:

I think it’s better for us Muslims to live in a majority Muslim countries where Islam rules. Living in a west to get a passport won’t benefits our akhira.

Salam it has a point although all muslim countries are not good for having a muslim lifestyle which for example UAE & Bahrain are following all of worst worldy pleasures in western countries which also Shias in Bahrain face oppression which young people in weekends travel from KSA  to UAE & Bahrain for having free access to all of sinful things which unfortunately few youngsters from elite people in Iran go to UAE for these sinful matters  too although Bahrain is dedicated to young Sunni Arabs due to  enmity it's government with Iran .

[Diaz]

23 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it has a point although all muslim countries are not good for having a muslim lifestyle which for example UAE & Bahrain are following all of worst worldy pleasures in western countries which also Shias in Bahrain face oppression which young people in weekends travel from KSA  to UAE & Bahrain for having free access to all of sinful things which unfortunately few youngsters from elite people in Iran go to UAE for these sinful matters  too although Bahrain is dedicated to young Sunni Arabs due to  enmity it's government with Iran .

You are completely right, I know some people to travel to Bahrain just to have an unethical sinful parties. But we can still have some good countries like Kuwait or Oman, both Sunni and Shia can live together with no issues and work is available. 
 

But sadly we shia can’t live in many Muslim countries due to their hatred to us. 
 

2 hours ago, Shian e Ali said:

Take Canada for example. They’re taking in around 500,000 people a year and plan to keep doing so for the next couple of years. 

Yeah but right now some people are leaving Canada permanently because of their prices and economy. Some Muslims said Islamophobia is increasing in Canada as well which is completely shock to me. 
 

2 hours ago, Shian e Ali said:

Which Muslim countries, especially as a Shi’a, would you say are the best to immigrate to? 

Well we Shias can live in many non Muslim countries since majority of them are secular countries. For Muslim countries we can live in Qatar, Oman and Kuwait. Ofc Iran are iraq are always counted but I’m just referring to the rich Muslim countries with very few populations. 

[Meedy]

If it wasn't for my family (my parents and my brothers). I would have gone to live in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan even if the conditions were bad.

There is nothing special living in the west. Even the education e.g. they teach about LGBT and try chance children Identity.  Parents don't care about teaching respect and mannerisms to their kids. Sins are normal. Good luck finding partner. You get ridicule if you say you believe in God.... 

The only good things about the living in the west is you got more access to medicine, medical treatments,.doctors which are important for elderly people specially and the disabled or those with severe illnesses (May God cure them).

[Diaz]

36 minutes ago, Meedy said:

it wasn't for my family (my parents and my brothers). I would have gone to live in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan even if the conditions were bad.

Come to Middle East brother, the conditions are bad but it’s not horrible. Just check and see, trying it is better than never. In Lebanon, even tho the economy is collapsing, you rarely find Lebanese homeless unlike in USA which is one of the most developed countries in the world (according to their logic)

 

39 minutes ago, Meedy said:

There is nothing special living in the west. Even the education e.g. they teach about LGBT and try chance children Identity.  Parents don't care about teaching respect and mannerisms to their kids. Sins are normal. Good luck finding partner. You get ridicule if you say you believe in God.... 

my sister is teaching in Islamic school that is following usa curriculum, she is teaching grade 4, majority of the students to not know how to write properly nor dictate the world. West education is a joke, expensive as hell with no benefits.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

46 minutes ago, Meedy said:

There is nothing special living in the west. Even the education e.g. they teach about LGBT and try chance children Identity.  Parents don't care about teaching respect and mannerisms to their kids. Sins are normal. Good luck finding partner. You get ridicule if you say you believe in God.... 

Yes if I ask my parents why they migrated here it was just for better opportunities in terms of career etc. Nothing else. The culture, lifestyle and everything in the West seems flawed. Surprisingly when I travel back home to the East, I feel lighter and happier. I am also able to focus more on religion. Yes some Muslim countries are corrupt like their government but religion is still alive in these societies. The West takes us into this dark hole of faithlessness and it won't get any better. Yes staying connected to communities, mosques and families here helps immensely but it is not the same. Inshallah I plan to go to the middle East when I get married and have kids. I'm already planning for the future. Not to be overly dramatic or negative though. Maybe some people love it in the West which is fine.

 

[Diaz]

2 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Inshallah I plan to go to the middle East when I get married and have kids. I'm already planning for the future.

I’m sure you will be happy mentally and physically brother. Inshallah everything will go according to your plan.  

[Ahmad8888]

3 hours ago, Diaz said:

Come to Middle East brother, the conditions are bad but it’s not horrible. Just check and see, trying it is better than never. In Lebanon, even tho the economy is collapsing, you rarely find Lebanese homeless unlike in USA which is one of the most developed countries in the world (according to their logic)

 

my sister is teaching in Islamic school that is following usa curriculum, she is teaching grade 4, majority of the students to not know how to write properly nor dictate the world. West education is a joke, expensive as hell with no benefits.

Lebanon is going to turn into a nuclear holocaust, don't have your hopes up, I am betting that this is the malhama that we are witnessing before our eyes. Anyone that wants to go to lebanon can go at their own risk, but the region will erupt into war and potential nuclear war, don't forget we have the jewish equivalent of daesh as neighbor with 200 nuclear bombs.

Edited January 23, 2024 by HusseinAbbas

[Diaz]

17 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Lebanon is going to turn into a nuclear holocaust, don't have your hopes up, I am betting that this is the malhama that we are witnessing before our eyes. Anyone that wants to go to lebanon can go at their own risk, but the region will erupt into war and potential nuclear war, don't forget we have the jewish equivalent of daesh as neighbor with 200 nuclear bombs.

I was comparing the homeless people in Lebanon with the ones  in USA, no where I mention anyone to come and live in Lebanon. I did mention Middle East, was talking about the good ones. And don't worry about wars in Lebanon, as long as Hezbollah and the resistance exist, it won’t be that dangerous like in 2006. Israhell can’t do anything if their allies still lives in Lebanon. 

[Ahmad8888]

8 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I was comparing the homeless people in Lebanon with the ones  in USA, no where I mention anyone to come and live in Lebanon. I did mention Middle East, was talking about the good ones. And don't worry about wars in Lebanon, as long as Hezbollah and the resistance exist, it won’t be that dangerous like in 2006. Israhell can’t do anything if their allies still lives in Lebanon. 

I wasn't talking about living, just visiting family. I honestly wouldn't suggest it and I genuinely think this will be worse than 2006, when israel loses the war and they will, they will kill everyone with them because their ennemies can't have nice things.

[Meedy]

I tell yous what else. Some of the youth in here, can't speak or understand their own native language. Cant even write because parents dont teach them or are not taken to Islamic classes. At home i would like to speak my own language, not English but that's not the case with the youth unfortunately.

I give you an example: there is afghan gentleman whose been in Australia for more than 30 years and worked at the uni. He always talks negative about islam & admits west support the terrorists groups but yet goes back and blame islam. He doesn't say anything about what European have in the last 2000 years, colonising countries, killing people and stealing their resources.  The point is living in the west, there is a risk of losing faith as time passes regardless of how young/adult or educated the person.

[Guest missmosawy29]

I've been thinking about this for a while, especially recently. The Western society is only willing to lure us into a trap, it is a system that aims in turning the human population into degenerate beings. All of these movements; LGBT, feminism, pro abortion and so on, are not just about population control but trying to distort reality.

After everything that has been going on in Palestine and other Muslim countries, you feel like an outsider. Even though I was born and raised in the West, Palestinians have exposed them and made us realise what kind of a society we live in. I'm ashamed to even live in a country who supports Israel and is aiding the war in Yemen. 

But the truth is, whether you live in the middle east or not, you still feel like an outsider and I am saying this from experience, despite being Arab myself. It's not about the country itself, or the people being westernised (there's still limits), but the people surrounding it can be so toxic due to cultural reasons, so even mentally you won't have a peace of mind. 

There's pros and cons to living in any place, be it in the Middle East or elsewhere, but like you have stated, at least there is religion alive in these societies. If I would ever choose a place to live in the Middle East, it would be Dubai. Sure its somewhat westernised and more modern, but at least it has Islamic integrity, and you won't feel like an outsider. I don't think I'll ever live in my homeland, with all due respect to the Ahlulbayt (pbut).

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:51 PM, HusseinAbbas said:

when israel loses the war and they will, they will kill everyone with them because their ennemies can't have nice things.

Salam inshaAllah it will lose although it doesn't mean total perishing of it although it will be weaken in order to can't cause further damage to muslims which based a conclusion from hadiths about   advent of cursed Sufyani which he will receive support from all of Zionists which after defeating him ; Imam Mahdi (aj) will bring all evidences for them to chose between death or accepting the truth inshaAllah.

Edited January 27, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[ShiaOfMahdi]

I live in Canada, it's a great country that feels safe to live in. Though the only problem now that they have a lot of immigrants is trying to find a good spot for halal food that's authentic.

[Lion of Shia]

What Islamic country is good for converts?

[Guest Jorsalfare]

Excellent thread. There is no reason whatsoever for any muslim to migrate to "The West". These countries are not yours. You share nothing with the peoples living there, not history, not blood, not culture, not religion, not traditions, nor ethics and morale.

Stay in your own countries.

[islamicmusic]

10 hours ago, Guest Jorsalfare said:

Excellent thread. There is no reason whatsoever for any muslim to migrate to "The West". These countries are not yours. You share nothing with the peoples living there, not history, not blood, not culture, not religion, not traditions, nor ethics and morale.

Stay in your own countries.

Yes, sir! We will do it as long as your regimes stop invading, plundering, meddling our countries, toppling governments, installing subserviant kingdoms, supporting terrorist organizations, sending troops, bombing nations, etc.

In fact, the beautiful colourful nations that God created had been living peacefully in their own countries until the western regimes started with their slave trade.

And I hope, in order to preach immigrants, first you go back to Europe and leave the "American" continents where you have no history, ethics, morale etc. and leave them to the amazing black people. Then the rest of the people will migrate back to their own lands.

Edited June 28, 2024 by islamicmusic

[Abu Hadi]

On 6/27/2024 at 6:13 PM, Guest Jorsalfare said:

Excellent thread. There is no reason whatsoever for any muslim to migrate to "The West". These countries are not yours. You share nothing with the peoples living there, not history, not blood, not culture, not religion, not traditions, nor ethics and morale.

Stay in your own countries.

No country belongs to anyone. The earth and everything in it belongs to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Sovereign Creator of all that exists. When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stated in the Holy Quran 'I am going to make in your earth a Calipha', the term 'yours' referring to the angels, was referring to the fact that the angels inhabited the earth, not that they owned it. The position of 'Calipha', in the general meaning, is a caretaker, one who is tasked with the responsibility of taking care of the place for the owner, which is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This is our task, as human beings, wherever we happen to live. To 'take care' of the earth by establishing justice in society vis a via enjoining the good and forbidding the evil. 

Also, everyone shares a history, blood, culture. We are all descended from Adam and Adam was made from clay. We are all part of the earth and came from the earth and if you go back in history we all have the same ancestors. Ethics and morals come from obedience to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).