Do Nazari Ismailis Believe there never ending chain of Imams are infallible

[ibnalhaydar]

Can anyone give me some good responses

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

Ismaili Imams

Ali Azhar Arastu

Quote

This book is about the beliefs of Ismailis. Two major sects within the Ismailis are the Agha Khanis who believe in 49 Imams and the Bohras who believe in 21 Imams. However both the Agha Khanis and the Bohras believe Ismail as an Imam, who was the son of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) and they reject Musa al-Kadhim s/o Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام). This book investigates the authenticity of the Ismaili/Fatimid Imams whether they were really divine.

 

Quote

Conclusive Points

In the discussion so far a few examples and some extracts from the lives of the Ismaili Imams and some of the Ithna Ashari Imams were discussed. When we look at the history of Ismaili Imams, it is apparent that they were not divinely appointed. They sinned and oppressed, like in the case of al-Hakim. How can we follow someone who sins? The Fatimid/Ismaili Imams had no traits in their lifestyles to show that they were spiritual Imams. They have no noble sayings and their life history has nothing in it that one can say, by looking and following their lifestyle, one could get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The goal of the Prophets and the Imams was to lead mankind closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but the Fatimid/Ismaili Imams had no traits that would lead someone closer to the Almighty.

On the other hand, the Imams of the Ithna Ashari Shias were full of knowledge, had impeccable characters, their sayings, their lifestyles and supplications, all lead towards seeking closeness to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

https://www.al-islam.org/examining-ismaili-imams-bohras-ali-azhar-arastu

 

[sunnism]

If they do, then their view is much more stronger than the twelvers

[humble-servant]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:16 PM, sunnism said:

If they do, then their view is much more stronger than the twelvers

I disagree - look at the individuals in the chain and you'll see the character of each and whether they were good people or not, sinners or not, oppressors or not, etc. 

الله أعلم

[Guest Second attempt at answer]

The Ismailis believe that in matters of faith their Imams are infallible. But in the temporal they are not.

[funklebits]

They believe their Imam is infallible when it comes to their faith, but not worldly affairs.

 

I can find some references if you would like. Sorry for not having ready.

[JannahLM]

I'm pretty sure they do, which makes things even more confusing as their recent Imams have pretty much thrown out Sharia.

[skaswani]

Yes, Nizari Ismailis believe and claim that their Imamah will continue till Qayamat.

[skaswani]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:44 PM, ibnalhaydar said:

Can anyone give me some good responses

Yes, Nizari Ismailis believe and claim that their Imamah will continue till Qayamat.

[skaswani]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:16 AM, sunnism said:

If they do, then their view is much more stronger than the twelvers

Yes we do 

Nizari Ismailis believe and claim that their Imamah will continue till Qayamat.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:11 PM, skaswani said:

Yes we do 

Nizari Ismailis believe and claim that their Imamah will continue till Qayamat.

Salam according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

 

Examining the Ismaili Imams & the Bohras

Ali Azhar Arastu

 Dr. Zahid Ali quotes Idris Imad al-Din the 19^th Dai of Tayyibis, “Imam Musa al-Kadhim’s mother was a slave and an Imam cannot be born to a slave girl, whereas the mother of Muhammad Ibn Ismail was not a slave girl.” The Dai Idris gives the reason why the Ismailis do not accept Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam, just because he was born to a slave girl. This means that if Musa al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) would have been born to a wife of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), then the Ismailis would have accepted Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam. Then, what about Muhammad ibn Ismail? Then, what about their claim that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) appointed Musa al-Kadhim just to protect Muhammad Ibn Ismail? Furthermore, what is wrong if Imam al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) was born to a slave girl? The Ismailis do not accept him as an Imam because he was born to a slave girl! Nabi Ibrahim’s son Nabi Ismail (عليه السلام) was the son of Hajara (sa), who was also a slave girl of Nabi Ibrahim!

 

https://www.al-islam.org/examining-ismaili-imams-bohras-ali-azhar-arastu/ismaili-imams

• Advanced Member

Posted just now · Hidden - This content must be approved before it can be edited.

Salam

  16 hours ago, skaswani said:

Really! can you pls share some authentic reference to prove your argument! as Ismaili I reject your claim!

According to Ismailis their so called Ismaili Imams are just infallible in judgment not other aspect of their life ;which they just  believe to total infallibility just for five people of cloak (Panjtan Pa’k) which Ismailis have preffered Isamil son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) over Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام)  because according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)"

According to Ghali viewpoint of Ismailis if their current So called Ismaili Imams are infallible likewise Panjtan Pa’k (five people of cloak) so therefore their so called Ismaili Imams are multiple gods in similar fashion of other Imams of Ghulats . 

  Quote

To the Ismailis, the Imam’s judgment is infallible, who knows who will bear the Noor of the Imamate after him.

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

  Quote

Once the missionaries of the Recreation Club, Bombay asked Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah about epithet of the Panjtan Pa’k. The Imam said, “Take a bar of gold and make its five pieces. You will call gold to each piece, simultaneously, will call gold to all five pieces together. This is an analogy of the Panjtan Pa’k.”

Panjtan pa’k ka bhed pichhanno, panchehi tan ek tan janno;
Panc’hi tan ka bhed jo pave’, vaikunth mahe’n to sohi jave’ (Satvenni Nani, 19)

“Know the mystery of Panjtan Pa’k (Five Chaste Personages), whose five bodies be known as One. One who generates mystery of the Panjtan Pa’k, he is exclusively entitled for the paradise.”
Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)

Expand  

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

Al-Mustansir had already designated (nass) to his eldest son Nizar as his successor and it was wholeheartedly accepted by most Ismaili circles. On the death of al-Mustansir (1094 CE), however, his prime minister and commander of the army, al-Afdal, proclaimed his brother-in-law, al-Mustali, a teenaged son of al-Mustansir as the successor to his father as the Fatimid Caliph. It is easily seen that al-Afdal had a vested interest in the appointment of al-Mustali, who had no public followings and who would consequently be dependent on his powerful patron. It seems that he had already figured it out before the death of al-Mustansir, as he gave his sister in marriage to this young prince and made the ties with him absolutely firm. Afdal explained to the public that the deceased Imam and Caliph, al-Mustansir billah, on his deathbed changed his nomination in favour of his younger son al-Mustali and cancelled his earlier nomination of his eldest son Nizar. He produced a few witnesses to certify the new nomination, and thus put al-Mustali on the throne of the Fatimid Caliphate. [20]

This decision, however, had far-reaching effects on the future aspiration of the Ismailis, who were totally split on this point of succession.

Ismailis loyal to Nizar, argued that the first nomination had never been cancelled and that it contradicted the basic principle of the Ismailis, and for the same principle they had not accepted the second nomination of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, and had remained faithful to his first nomination in favour of Ismail. Most Ismailis living within the countries under direct rule of the Fatimids accepted the Imamate of al-Mustali but those who supported Nizar as their Imam were forced to accept the Imamat of al-Mustali, who was duly installed as the 9th Fatimid Caliph in Cairo.

The supporters of Nizar managed to develop an Ismaili state in Iran and Syria whose founder and main architect was Hasan-i-Sabbah, the subject of my forthcoming book. He laid the foundations of a small but strong Ismaili state.

https://simerg.com/literary-readings/the-ismailis-fom-the-earliest-times-to-the-fall-of-the-fatimid-empire/

related thread

 

 

Edited August 26 by Ashvazdanghe

[skaswani]

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

 

Examining the Ismaili Imams & the Bohras

Ali Azhar Arastu

 Dr. Zahid Ali quotes Idris Imad al-Din the 19^th Dai of Tayyibis, “Imam Musa al-Kadhim’s mother was a slave and an Imam cannot be born to a slave girl, whereas the mother of Muhammad Ibn Ismail was not a slave girl.” The Dai Idris gives the reason why the Ismailis do not accept Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam, just because he was born to a slave girl. This means that if Musa al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) would have been born to a wife of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), then the Ismailis would have accepted Musa al-Kadhim as their Imam. Then, what about Muhammad ibn Ismail? Then, what about their claim that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) appointed Musa al-Kadhim just to protect Muhammad Ibn Ismail? Furthermore, what is wrong if Imam al-Kadhim (عليه السلام) was born to a slave girl? The Ismailis do not accept him as an Imam because he was born to a slave girl! Nabi Ibrahim’s son Nabi Ismail (عليه السلام) was the son of Hajara (sa), who was also a slave girl of Nabi Ibrahim!

 

https://www.al-islam.org/examining-ismaili-imams-bohras-ali-azhar-arastu/ismaili-imams

• Advanced Member

Posted just now · Hidden - This content must be approved before it can be edited.

Salam

  16 hours ago, skaswani said:

Really! can you pls share some authentic reference to prove your argument! as Ismaili I reject your claim!

According to Ismailis their so called Ismaili Imams are just infallible in judgment not other aspect of their life ;which they just  believe to total infallibility just for five people of cloak (Panjtan Pa’k) which Ismailis have preffered Isamil son of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) over Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام)  because according to their false belief Isamil (رضي الله عنه) has been son a free woman while Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) has been son of a slave woman ; while Ismailis have accepted prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) son of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as their prophet while he has been son an slave mother the lady Hajar; which in similar fashion Jews have preferred prophet Isac (Is'haq) over prophet Ismail because prophet Isac (Is'haq) was son a free woman but on the other hand prophet Ismail (عليه السلام) was son a slave woman . 

Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)"

According to Ghali viewpoint of Ismailis if their current So called Ismaili Imams are infallible likewise Panjtan Pa’k (five people of cloak) so therefore their so called Ismaili Imams are multiple gods in similar fashion of other Imams of Ghulats . 

  Quote

To the Ismailis, the Imam’s judgment is infallible, who knows who will bear the Noor of the Imamate after him.

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

  Quote

Once the missionaries of the Recreation Club, Bombay asked Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah about epithet of the Panjtan Pa’k. The Imam said, “Take a bar of gold and make its five pieces. You will call gold to each piece, simultaneously, will call gold to all five pieces together. This is an analogy of the Panjtan Pa’k.”

Panjtan pa’k ka bhed pichhanno, panchehi tan ek tan janno;
Panc’hi tan ka bhed jo pave’, vaikunth mahe’n to sohi jave’ (Satvenni Nani, 19)

“Know the mystery of Panjtan Pa’k (Five Chaste Personages), whose five bodies be known as One. One who generates mystery of the Panjtan Pa’k, he is exclusively entitled for the paradise.”
Imam Aga Ali Shah said, “Don’t you think that Mawla Ali is different and God is different, even Imam Hussain and the Prophet are unlike, not at all. All these are One Noor.” (Bombay, 1858)

Expand  

http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38265

Al-Mustansir had already designated (nass) to his eldest son Nizar as his successor and it was wholeheartedly accepted by most Ismaili circles. On the death of al-Mustansir (1094 CE), however, his prime minister and commander of the army, al-Afdal, proclaimed his brother-in-law, al-Mustali, a teenaged son of al-Mustansir as the successor to his father as the Fatimid Caliph. It is easily seen that al-Afdal had a vested interest in the appointment of al-Mustali, who had no public followings and who would consequently be dependent on his powerful patron. It seems that he had already figured it out before the death of al-Mustansir, as he gave his sister in marriage to this young prince and made the ties with him absolutely firm. Afdal explained to the public that the deceased Imam and Caliph, al-Mustansir billah, on his deathbed changed his nomination in favour of his younger son al-Mustali and cancelled his earlier nomination of his eldest son Nizar. He produced a few witnesses to certify the new nomination, and thus put al-Mustali on the throne of the Fatimid Caliphate. [20]

This decision, however, had far-reaching effects on the future aspiration of the Ismailis, who were totally split on this point of succession.

Ismailis loyal to Nizar, argued that the first nomination had never been cancelled and that it contradicted the basic principle of the Ismailis, and for the same principle they had not accepted the second nomination of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, Musa al-Kazim, and had remained faithful to his first nomination in favour of Ismail. Most Ismailis living within the countries under direct rule of the Fatimids accepted the Imamate of al-Mustali but those who supported Nizar as their Imam were forced to accept the Imamat of al-Mustali, who was duly installed as the 9th Fatimid Caliph in Cairo.

The supporters of Nizar managed to develop an Ismaili state in Iran and Syria whose founder and main architect was Hasan-i-Sabbah, the subject of my forthcoming book. He laid the foundations of a small but strong Ismaili state.

https://simerg.com/literary-readings/the-ismailis-fom-the-earliest-times-to-the-fall-of-the-fatimid-empire/

related thread

 

I have responded you on other thread, thanks!