Ethnic (or racial) exclusivity, fitrah, and converts

[Northwest]

Islam, like a number of other faiths, is supposed to be open to converts from a variety of ethnicities and races. However, I have noticed that, in practice, ethnic and/or racial groups tend to prefer converts from among their own, rather than seek to expand their base to other ethnicities and/or races. Converts from other ethnicities and/or races are often not looked upon as “real” converts and their adherence to the creed is regarded as reflecting syncretistic practices. (As the link above makes clear, cultural practices within a creed often vary wildly according to geography, so that we see “Turkic” and “Indonesian” forms of Sunni and/or Sufi Islam.) For example, Arabs, at least in part, sometimes seem as though they prefer converts from among other Arabs, while discouraging conversion of other ethnic and/or racial groups. Nor is this behaviour exclusive to Arabs and/or Muslims.

In this case I am not referring to the alleged treatment of “foreign” converts as “second-class believers.” I am referring to the fact that in many cases religion is looked upon something that is exclusive to a particular family, tribe, caste, ethnicity, or race; that is inherited and handed down from father to son; and that is in some sense “private property,” meaning that conversion of outsiders is discouraged. Judaism’s attitude in this regard is well known, but many other faiths reflect this “cultural” mindset, which in turn seems to trump universalism and the supposed existence of the fitrah—a collective, innate, monotheistic consciousness. If pure monotheism is so natural, why is there so much variation even within monotheistic creeds themselves, to the extent that ethnicity and lineage seem to largely determine the form(s) of religious expression?

If all men were born essentially alike, sharing a similar God-consciousness from birth, then would not there be much more uniformity than is observable within as well as between each of the three Abrahamic creeds, so that cultural practices would tend to converge rather than diverge along ethnic, racial, tribal, and related lines? Yet instead a vast variation is seen. Furthermore, given that religion is often treated as the exclusive provenance of a particular lineage, thereby discouraging the conversion of other groups, does this imply that people are born with different spiritual conceptions? In that case, would (some of) the Arabs—or any other particular group—be the only group with a “pure” fitrah? If so, I think that would not make sense, given the universalistic thrust of Islam and the fact that men are supposed to be born with free will.

Any thoughts?

[علوي]

There definitely exists this unfortunate trend among Muslims, and this is something we should move to change. But there is a reason for it.

The Shi'ites, ever since the reign of Muawiya, were forced to practice taqiyyah. Known Shi'ites like Maysam al-Tammar and Hujr ibn Adi were executed. People hesitated from naming their sons 'Ali' because of the danger it posed to them. This continued from Muawiya until ISIS. The latter's crimes are documented and can be seen visually. Religion was something that was passed only to your children, because otherwise it would mean the end of your life. (The same could be said about the Jews (although Zionism more or less formalised it as a part of the "ethno-religion")). In some parts of the world, this continues today. Imagine you're a radical Sunni in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, and you hear some idiot like Yasser al-Habib cursing your "mother" (Aisha) and your "amir" (Omar). It doesn't matter where the cursing happens, but it's bound to draw a violent reaction from you, who believe that the Shi'ites are worse than the Jews and Christians and that their blood is halal. Even discussing the esoteric dimension of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) will be perceived by some radicals as shirk, and I'm sure you know what radicals are willing to do to mushrikeen. 

We should also consider the rise in xenophobia, especially after 9/11. Imagine an Arab Muslim with dark skin and a lot of facial hair giving da3wah to a white American who believes that the Muslims are taking over their country (and probably has a gun). Forget da3wah, just the mere fact that the Muslim exists in a "white" country is enough for him to be attacked. A lot of the world is still very racist; they might not openly show it like before but it's definitely there.

It's for reasons like this that religion has been regarded as "private property" by many. 

That said, as I mentioned before, there is definitely an element of racism in our communities and that has to change. Just because a Muslim isn't from your country, doesn't make them less pious in the eyes of Allah. 

Allahu a3lam.

[Northwest]

16 hours ago, علوي said:

Religion was something that was passed only to your children, because otherwise it would mean the end of your life. ... Imagine you're a radical Sunni in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, and you hear some idiot like Yasser al-Habib cursing your "mother" (Aisha) and your "amir" (Omar).

My point is that, historically, this basic pattern seems both ubiquitous and almost universal. In practice faith is very often very closely linked to or treated almost as synonymous with one’s bloodline. According to this sense apostasy would be equivalent to squandering one’s inheritance, thereby threatening the bloodline itself, and hence punishable by death and/or excommunication. Disobedience to one’s parents in matters of religion would be treated as the same. Look at the symbolism: the patriarch / father / king, the matriarch / mother / queen, and their direct descendants. I suspect that this explains why different faiths tend to be restricted to certain ethnic or racial groups at best. In Talmudic Judaism there are some traditions to the effect that converts from non-Jewish ethnic groups are undesirable (recall that Judah is one of the Israelite tribes, so that Judaism can be both a lineage and a religion).

16 hours ago, علوي said:

Imagine an Arab Muslim with dark skin and a lot of facial hair

? Arabs aren’t dark-skinned compared to Caucasians, except maybe part of the Yemeni population (near the Horn of Africa).

16 hours ago, علوي said:

Forget da3wah, just the mere fact that the Muslim exists in a "white" country is enough for him to be attacked.

I think the hostility in this case has much more to do with race than religion. After all, different races tend to be hostile to “foreigners” in their midst for one reason or another. So why are you equating “Arab” with “Muslim”? In doing so you also help illustrate my point: that religion is treated as the exclusive property of a particular race/lineage, to which other bloodlines have no right, hence the discouragement of interethnic conversion in practice (most visibly in Judaism, as you noted). As I may have suggested earlier: the fact that religion is so often conflated with race and/or lineage—and that the latter is regarded as somehow dictating the former—is very revealing. This goes for both sides: the Arabs, in turn, regard “whites” as being synonymous with “Christians,” while the Caucasians regard “Arabs” and Semites generally as being synonymous with “Muslims” (and/or “Jews,” for that matter). It’s as though there is no difference between race and faith in practice.

16 hours ago, علوي said:

It's for reasons like this that religion has been regarded as "private property" by many.

That said, as I mentioned before, there is definitely an element of racism in our communities and that has to change. Just because a Muslim isn't from your country, doesn't make them less pious in the eyes of Allah.

To be clear, this kind of behaviour is not exclusive to Muslim groups, but is, in my eyes, common to virtually all creeds, given that mankind seems to be strongly particularistic and tribal in nature—in a biological rather than a spiritual sense. In other words, this or that faith is treated as a particular bloodline’s private property and tends not to be imparted to other bloodlines, which are deemed “unworthy” of being admitted to the covenant.

[Abu Hadi]

As a white male revert, (Northern European Ancestry), I can say that the OP and the first post both have a point. 

Racism, Ethnocentrism, etc, exists in every religion and every community on earth. Speaking as a Shia, like br Ali said, this 'closed offness' that is sometimes equated with racism was (and still is in some parts of the world) a reaction to the severe oppressive way Shias were 'dealt with' historically by the majority sect. If, at one point, we weren't so closed off, we probably wouldn't exist today. 

At the same time, we have to look at our own particular situation as it is, not as it was in the past. In most parts of the world today, just saying 'I'm Shia' is not going to get you killed or put in jail as was the case in the past. Showing open support for certain groups is a different story and that might get you in trouble in many places in the West and ME. 

In the US, especially, white reverts are viewed with suspicion because many believe they could be 'infiltrators' or 'agents' of the US Govt. I have talked about this in the past. This is mostly an illogical fear because 'Yes' the US does send spies and infiltrators into Muslims communities, this is known and documented. At the same time, they almost never (I've never actually heard of a case) send in white reverts. The main reasons for this are logical. They have no 'cultural capital', not position, and most of the time don't even speak the language of the community so they would have a triple handicap as far as getting the information the CIA / FBI is after. When they send spies, they almost always send someone from that culture, who speaks the language, has a family 'pedigree' and most of the time has a prominent position in the community because those are the ones who have access to the information the FBI / CIA is seeking. Very simple if you think about it logically but most people don't think this way, they just react emotionally. 

At the same time, I don't think this suspicion is racism as much as it is a misguided attempt to protect the community. In my experience, most Muslims that I have met (I've met probably hundreds) actually don't have any sort of issue with Caucasians who are muslim except the above issue. The racism directed toward African Americans and those of African descent with dark skin is another story. This is very real and very common and I haven't seen the communities actually trying to address this directly. 

[123xo]

Honestly, i think this sort of division is with every religion/race people just tend to stick to what they're familiar with in general. If you don't get approached while at religious gatherings eg: mosque, Eid shows (not sure if you have that where you are) then you go and initiate the convo with others i'm pretty sure they'll be more than delighted to talk to you and know more about you, hopefully that way you can expand your social circle within the community. Goodluck and always remember to always take the first step don't wait for others. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, Northwest said:

According to this sense apostasy would be equivalent to squandering one’s inheritance, thereby threatening the bloodline itself, and hence punishable by death and/or excommunication. Disobedience to one’s parents in matters of religion would be treated as the same. Look at the symbolism: the patriarch / father / king, the matriarch / mother / queen, and their direct descendants. I suspect that this explains why different faiths tend to be restricted to certain ethnic or racial groups at best. In Talmudic Judaism there are some traditions to the effect that converts from non-Jewish ethnic groups are undesirable (recall that Judah is one of the Israelite tribes, so that Judaism can be both a lineage and a religion).

Hi you are analyzing Islam from a blended blurry Christian & judaic viewpoint which it's comparing apples with oranges because you want to analyze Islam through distorted religions which we don't have  squandering one’s inheritance in Islam specially in Shia Islam which disobedience to one’s parents doesn't lead to squandering one’s inheritance which a person only can  decides about disturbing one third of his property in his wil which remaining two third will be distributed among inheritors  according to Sharia law which rule of parents is about" Wilāya (Arabic:الولاية) and its paronyms, literally meaning guardianship, are widely used in the Qur'an to mean administration and authority" but it's not equivalent to Wilāya of Allah which Wilāya of parents is lesser than Wilaya of A Qualified Jurist which Wilaya of A Qualified Jurist is lesser than Wilaya of infallible Imams so then Wilāya of infallibel Imams is lesser than Prophet Muhammad (pbU) which Wilaya of him is lesser than Allah although their wilaya follows each wilaya in hierarchical way which Wilāya of parents  is in lowest status which rejecting it leads to cursing by Allah but it doesn't lead to apostasy &  squandering one’s inheritance.

 

Certainly Islam doesn't limit to any racial group which accepting Islam by any racial group is desirable  but some muslims due to be influenced from other people likewise Jews are trying to limit to a certain race .

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Wilaya

17 hours ago, Northwest said:

So why are you equating “Arab” with “Muslim”?

Nobody here has equated "Arab" with "muslims" which this false equating only exists between Wahabis who are backing by KSA which they want to introduce house of Saud as leader of all muslims of world.

Quote

The Bedouins say, ‘We have faith.’ Say, ‘You do not have faith yet; rather, say, ‘‘We have embraced Islam,’’ for faith has not yet entered into your hearts. Yet if you obey Allah and His Apostle, He will not stint anything of [the reward of] your works. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.’ (14)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/49:14

 

 

17 hours ago, Northwest said:

This goes for both sides: the Arabs, in turn, regard “whites” as being synonymous with “Christians,” while the Caucasians regard “Arabs” and Semites generally as being synonymous with “Muslims” (and/or “Jews,” for that matter). It’s as though there is no difference between race and faith in practice.

This definition of skin color is different in different cultures which Arabs know themselves as Whites which Christians are pale which has no place in Islam which in not distorted Islamic viewpoint " there is no difference between race and faith in practice."

Quote

O mankind! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female, and made you nations and tribes that you may identify yourselves with one another. Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most Godwary among you. Indeed Allah is all-knowing, all-aware. (13)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/49:13

Quote

These are the apostles, some of whom We gave an advantage over others: of them are those to whom Allah spoke and some of them He raised in rank, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, manifest proofs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had Allah wished, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another after the manifest proofs had come to them. But they differed. So there were among them those who had faith and there were among them those who were faithless, and had Allah wished, they would not have fought one another; but Allah does whatever He desires. (253)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/2:253

 

Quote

O mankind! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female, and made you nations and tribes that you may identify yourselves with one another. Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most Godwary among you. Indeed Allah is all-knowing, all-aware. (13)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/49:13

Godwary equals to Taqwa

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Taqwa

 

[Northwest]

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi you are analyzing Islam from a blended blurry Christian & judaic viewpoint which it's comparing apples with oranges because you want to analyze Islam through distorted religions which we don't have squandering one’s inheritance in Islam specially in Shia Islam which disobedience to one’s parents doesn't lead to squandering one’s inheritance

Please let me explain. I wasn’t referring to a physical inheritance, but to a spiritual one. I meant that individuals in different cultural contexts may treat their faith as a kind of “inheritance” that is restricted to their immediate kin.

15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Certainly Islam doesn't limit to any racial group which accepting Islam by any racial group is desirable  but some muslims due to be influenced from other people likewise Jews are trying to limit to a certain race .

Nobody here has equated "Arab" with "muslims" which this false equating only exists between Wahabis who are backing by KSA which they want to introduce house of Saud as leader of all muslims of world.

I wasn’t necessarily referring to people here, but to people in general around the world, and did not restrict my reference to Muslims.

[Northwest]

On 1/7/2024 at 11:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

In the US, especially, white reverts are viewed with suspicion because many believe they could be 'infiltrators' or 'agents' of the US Govt. I have talked about this in the past. This is mostly an illogical fear because 'Yes' the US does send spies and infiltrators into Muslims communities, this is known and documented. At the same time, they almost never (I've never actually heard of a case) send in white reverts. The main reasons for this are logical. They have no 'cultural capital', not position, and most of the time don't even speak the language of the community so they would have a triple handicap as far as getting the information the CIA / FBI is after. When they send spies, they almost always send someone from that culture, who speaks the language, has a family 'pedigree' and most of the time has a prominent position in the community because those are the ones who have access to the information the FBI / CIA is seeking. Very simple if you think about it logically but most people don't think this way, they just react emotionally. 

At the same time, I don't think this suspicion is racism as much as it is a misguided attempt to protect the community. In my experience, most Muslims that I have met (I've met probably hundreds) actually don't have any sort of issue with Caucasians who are muslim except the above issue. The racism directed toward African Americans and those of African descent with dark skin is another story. This is very real and very common and I haven't seen the communities actually trying to address this directly. 

@Abu Hadi Based on your experience, does the “suspicion” of white reverts break down along ethnic and/or racial lines? I.e., do “nonwhite” Muslims such as Arabs, Africans, et al. somehow prefer that reverts be of their own ethnicity and/or race? Otherwise, why would they be so wary of white reverts, given the latter’s lack of involvement in “nonwhite” ethnic enclaves among Muslims? Wouldn’t this explain an otherwise-“illogical” and/or seemingly irrational response?

As a potential future “revert,” I am interested in hearing whether different ethnic and/or racial subsets discourage converts from outside their respective groups. (If I am not mistaken clannishness also tends to play a big role within these groups, some more than others, depending on geography.) I do not necessarily mind being overlooked if I were to revert (by no means do I expect to be catered or pandered to), but if I were actually unwanted the matter might be different.

@Ashvazdanghe I know that I sound like the proverbial “broken record,” but one reason as to why I keep returning to racial and/or ethnic exclusivity is: if (Shia) Islam is meant to be accessible to all people, then why have few religious groups beyond the Middle East been led to it? For example, there have been many devout Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, and other faithful in Europe, the Americas, sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia who were never exposed to knowledge of (Shia) Islam in their lifetimes, yet why did they apparently never receive messages from the Imams and/or other Divine Representatives in dreams, visions, etc. telling them to adopt the true faith and offering detailed instructions? If they were sincere but had no means of access to the information, then couldn’t God have sent them the truth via supernatural means? If not, then what does that say about the universality of (Shia) Islam beyond a specific ethnic and/or racial group? (Note: I’m not saying that (Shia) Islam or any other faith is or isn’t true.)

[Northwest]

^ This thread also partly touches on something that I mentioned: that in practice religious faith is often treated as something that is restricted to a family or clan within a particular racial and/or ethnic group, so that converts from the “outside” are discouraged.

[Abu Hadi]

2 hours ago, Northwest said:

@Abu Hadi Based on your experience, does the “suspicion” of white reverts break down along ethnic and/or racial lines? I.e., do “nonwhite” Muslims such as Arabs, Africans, et al. somehow prefer that reverts be of their own ethnicity and/or race? Otherwise, why would they be so wary of white reverts, given the latter’s lack of involvement in “nonwhite” ethnic enclaves among Muslims? Wouldn’t this explain an otherwise-“illogical” and/or seemingly irrational response?

As a potential future “revert,” I am interested in hearing whether different ethnic and/or racial subsets discourage converts from outside their respective groups. (If I am not mistaken clannishness also tends to play a big role within these groups, some more than others, depending on geography.) I do not necessarily mind being overlooked if I were to revert (by no means do I expect to be catered or pandered to), but if I were actually unwanted the matter might be different.

Most masjids in the US are homogeneous, meaning one ethnicity. I can use Dearborn / SE Michigan Metro Area for an example. There are about 10 Shia Masjids that I know of (there are lots of Sunni ones too but I haven't been to any of those). Two are all Pakistani / Indian (Subcontinent), Three Lebanese (the big one on Ford Rd) mostly but some Iraqis. Three are almost all Iraqi, One is mostly Iranian with some Lebanese and Iraqi, and One is an Arab Mixture (Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Palestinian, Jordanian) with a few Pakistanis and a few African Americans and a few white people (i.e. the one I go to). 

So out of the 10, one is mixed. This is the issue. In any masjid I have been to, a white person would stand out like a sore thumb. Especially a White person who is almost exclusively Northern European Heritage (blond hair , blue / green eyes). There is a difference between women and men in this regard. If you're a lady with this heritage and your reasonably young and reasonably attractive, you might get a few marriage proposals before you walk out the door. Some women like that attention, some don't. For a man, you'll get the 'Salam Alekum brother' followed by comments to their friends in a language other than English. Some of those comments are benign, but sometimes they are not. I have been in the community long enough to know enough Arabic to know when people are talking about me and the general gist of what they are saying, although most of the time I don't understand every word. Since they can't imagine that I know any Arabic, they are usually unrestricted in their comments even if they are standing right next to me. If I want to be really naughty, I will start speaking Arabic to them (after waiting for them to finish their commentary), and watch their jaw drop and their face change color followed by awkward silence and then maybe some rushed apologies before they walk away. 

So this is my personal experience. It is difficult to gather data on this subject and do a proper study since there are so few 'white looking' (what people who don't live around white people thing white people look like) Muslim men, outside of maybe Eastern Europe or Russia. 

This is why you have so few white revert men in the US / Canada, etc. There are many who believe the religion of Islam is the truth, and they want to follow it, but then dealing with these kinds of situations puts them off in an extreme way to where most of them end up either leaving the religion altogether or just live a life of solidary, quiet reflection away from the 'community'. I have met more than a few brothers on SC who are in that category. 

I have been in the community long enough where I have my circle of friends and associates that have known me for years, know my family, some even know my wife's family so I don't have to deal with those kinds of things with them, but every time I meet a new group or go to a different masjid, it's the same thing, like a loop on a record. 

This is human nature. People notice things that stand out. Since the typical 'TV Show' FBI agent is a white man in a suit, they just assume 'well he looks like that guy in a suit' kind of thing (even though I don't wear a suit and actually hate wearing ties especially). You stand out, you kinda look like that guy on that T.V. show, well you must be FBI then. This is the extent of most people's thinking, unfortunately Muslims are not that much different. The ones with Taqwa and the educated ones are not like this, but they are a small minority in most communities. 

The real FBI actually counts on this phenomenon and uses it to their advantage. If you look at how the FBI really operates, not the Hollywood version, it is much different. If you watch documentaries  (from trustworthy sources) about how the FBI actually operates, they typically have a field office in a city and the main job of this field office is to recruit 'agents' from within the community they are trying to get information from. They always look for three things. First, someone who can come and go unnoticed, i.e. stealth mode. They look and act just like everyone in the Community. Second, they are highly familiar with the language and culture of the community. Third and most important, they have access to the information the FBI wants. In Muslim communities, this usually means they have 'status' meaning they come from a prominent family or are an alim. In Dearborn, at least, of the agents who have been 'outed' , i.e. found out by the community, all of them ticked these boxes. None were white, btw, or reverts but like I said people's thinking seldom goes this deep to actually consider the facts, lol. 

Reversion is between you and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so no group could discourage it, even if they wanted to. I have never met anyone who will actually say 'I want to discourage someone from reverting'. A muslim would never put it into those words, at least I've never heard it. What does happen though, as far as most Muslims, is that their behaviour is mostly a result of their understanding of Islam thru the cultural lens that was given to them by their parents / community and they never bother to investigate whether this is actually Islam, i.e. the teaching of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). Their mode of behaviour 'works for them' as far as their goals in the dunya, so they just keep doing it. That is why Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) said 'Most people are asleep (throughout their life) and when they die they wake up'. This was said about people in general, including Muslims. They go thru life on auto pilot until something happens where they now don't have the autopilot anymore, i.e. death where you then see the true reality of yourself and the world around you. 

If you believe that there is no God but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Muhammad is the Messenger of God then you should revert. Life is inherently challenging, whether you are a Muslim or non Muslim. These challenges shouldn't scare you away from reverting because if you didn't go thru these challenges. you would go thru other ones, maybe things that are even more challenging. That is the nature of the dunya (lower realm). The difference is that if you revert you will 'get credit' for going thru these challenges so long as you are sincerely seeking to build your relationship with God. All that is required to build this relationship is sincerity in wanting to build it. There are no other requirements. That is why it says in the Holy Quran 'When my servant asks about me tell them I am near'. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) use the first person pronoun 'I' or Ana in Arabic to show that He(s.w.a) is with anyone who is sincere, one on one, and listens to their requests and will answer them, although maybe not right away. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask here or pm me. 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Abu Hadi

[Haq Man]

“Resentment is of four branches: arrogance, boastfulness, egoistic, and racism. Whoever is arrogant turns his back to the truth. Whoever is boastful indulges in sins. Whoever is egoistic persists in sins. Whoever comes in the clench of racism commits injustice.

 

Al-Kāfi - Volume 2, Book 1, Chapter 168, Description of Hypocrisy and Hypocrites, Hadith #1.

[Ashvazdanghe]

339:killing of 2 Muslims at Khaybar and lessons from their death|Our prophet

 

[Northwest]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Most masjids in the US are homogeneous, meaning one ethnicity. I can use Dearborn / SE Michigan Metro Area for an example. There are about 10 Shia Masjids that I know of (there are lots of Sunni ones too but I haven't been to any of those). Two are all Pakistani / Indian (Subcontinent), Three Lebanese (the big one on Ford Rd) mostly but some Iraqis. Three are almost all Iraqi, One is mostly Iranian with some Lebanese and Iraqi, and One is an Arab Mixture (Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Palestinian, Jordanian) with a few Pakistanis and a few African Americans and a few white people (i.e. the one I go to).

@Abu Hadi This is one thing that concerns me. I am of mixed race/ethnicity and for personal reasons have often felt isolated. If I were to revert, I would not really belong to any community, and Islam is supposed to be community-oriented. As someone who is interested in potentially reverting I would ideally wish to feel a welcomed (and productive) member of a community, but if the community is exclusively tied to a particular race and/or ethnicity, then I fear that I might have a problem.

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

So out of the 10, one is mixed. This is the issue. In any masjid I have been to, a white person would stand out like a sore thumb. Especially a White person who is almost exclusively Northern European Heritage (blond hair , blue / green eyes). There is a difference between women and men in this regard. If you're a lady with this heritage and your reasonably young and reasonably attractive, you might get a few marriage proposals before you walk out the door. Some women like that attention, some don't. For a man, you'll get the 'Salam Alekum brother' followed by comments to their friends in a language other than English. Some of those comments are benign, but sometimes they are not. I have been in the community long enough to know enough Arabic to know when people are talking about me and the general gist of what they are saying, although most of the time I don't understand every word. Since they can't imagine that I know any Arabic, they are usually unrestricted in their comments even if they are standing right next to me. If I want to be really naughty, I will start speaking Arabic to them (after waiting for them to finish their commentary), and watch their jaw drop and their face change color followed by awkward silence and then maybe some rushed apologies before they walk away.

I don’t wish to ask too much about specifics, but what was the nature, on balance, of the “negative” comments? If they were discriminatory, in what way? Did they relate to marriage? I.e., did they think to themselves, “This non-Arab is not worthy of marrying an Arab woman”?

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

So this is my personal experience. It is difficult to gather data on this subject and do a proper study since there are so few 'white looking' (what people who don't live around white people thing white people look like) Muslim men, outside of maybe Eastern Europe or Russia. 

This is why you have so few white revert men in the US / Canada, etc. There are many who believe the religion of Islam is the truth, and they want to follow it, but then dealing with these kinds of situations puts them off in an extreme way to where most of them end up either leaving the religion altogether or just live a life of solidary, quiet reflection away from the 'community'. I have met more than a few brothers on SC who are in that category.

I have been in the community long enough where I have my circle of friends and associates that have known me for years, know my family, some even know my wife's family so I don't have to deal with those kinds of things with them, but every time I meet a new group or go to a different masjid, it's the same thing, like a loop on a record. 

This is human nature.

This goes back to the problem that I raised in this thread. According to Islam, if my understanding is correct, all humans, regardless of racial and/or ethnic background, are born with an innate God-consciousness (fitrah) and only deviate from Islam due to environmental influences, i.e., upbringing and consequent choices in life. In practice, however, organised Islam seems to follow ethnic and/or racial boundaries. I mean, we are supposed to have free will as well, but on a practical basis accidents of birth seem to take precedence. As someone who was not born of Middle-Easterners, or even of a single race/ethnicity, I often reflect on the observed reality and wonder: if all humans are born Muslim and with free will, why is “human nature” and/or the system set up as though the opposite were the case, even though it may not necessarily be? This is a bit like the debate on whether illegitimate children are automatically excluded from the possibility of being good Muslims simply on account of lineage.

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

People notice things that stand out. Since the typical 'TV Show' FBI agent is a white man in a suit, they just assume 'well he looks like that guy in a suit' kind of thing (even though I don't wear a suit and actually hate wearing ties especially). You stand out, you kinda look like that guy on that T.V. show, well you must be FBI then. This is the extent of most people's thinking, unfortunately Muslims are not that much different. The ones with Taqwa and the educated ones are not like this, but they are a small minority in most communities. 

The real FBI actually counts on this phenomenon and uses it to their advantage. If you look at how the FBI really operates, not the Hollywood version, it is much different. If you watch documentaries  (from trustworthy sources) about how the FBI actually operates, they typically have a field office in a city and the main job of this field office is to recruit 'agents' from within the community they are trying to get information from. They always look for three things. First, someone who can come and go unnoticed, i.e. stealth mode. They look and act just like everyone in the Community. Second, they are highly familiar with the language and culture of the community. Third and most important, they have access to the information the FBI wants. In Muslim communities, this usually means they have 'status' meaning they come from a prominent family or are an alim. In Dearborn, at least, of the agents who have been 'outed' , i.e. found out by the community, all of them ticked these boxes. None were white, btw, or reverts but like I said people's thinking seldom goes this deep to actually consider the facts, lol.

Maybe they think that the U.S. government is run by “whites” and that the FBI’s agents (paid employees) are therefore effectively “white,” even if the FBI’s assets (mere informants) are recruited among “nonwhite” Muslims. The assets, by helping the “white” ruling class, are therefore treated as “white,” even if they aren’t. I could be wrong, however.

On 1/11/2024 at 8:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Reversion is between you and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so no group could discourage it, even if they wanted to. I have never met anyone who will actually say 'I want to discourage someone from reverting'. A muslim would never put it into those words, at least I've never heard it.

Let me put the question to you differently. In your experience, was there any sign that the “nonwhite” Muslims (i.e., Arabs, Africans, and so on) disliked the prospect of “white” (i.e., Caucasian) reverts, i.e., that they preferred that the believers only be recruited from within their particular racial and/or ethnic category? My point is, If they could choose, would they have preferred to exclude “white” converts from the fold of Islam, as though the Deen were a “family’s matter” and restricted to their own, “nonwhite” race and/or ethnicity? In other words, at heart did they view Islam as exclusively theirs, so that they actually didn’t want converts of a diverse ethnic and/or racial background?

I’m not trying to assign blame, but merely to understand.

Edited January 16, 2024 by Northwest

[Abu Hadi]

6 hours ago, Northwest said:

@Abu Hadi This is one thing that concerns me. I am of mixed race/ethnicity and for personal reasons have often felt isolated. If I were to revert, I would not really belong to any community, and Islam is supposed to be community-oriented. As someone who is interested in potentially reverting I would ideally wish to feel a welcomed (and productive) member of a community, but if the community is exclusively tied to a particular race and/or ethnicity, then I fear that I might have a problem.

I don’t wish to ask too much about specifics, but what was the nature, on balance, of the “negative” comments? If they were discriminatory, in what way? Did they relate to marriage? I.e., did they think to themselves, “This non-Arab is not worthy of marrying an Arab woman”?

This goes back to the problem that I raised in this thread. According to Islam, if my understanding is correct, all humans, regardless of racial and/or ethnic background, are born with an innate God-consciousness (fitrah) and only deviate from Islam due to environmental influences, i.e., upbringing and consequent choices in life. In practice, however, organised Islam seems to follow ethnic and/or racial boundaries. I mean, we are supposed to have free will as well, but on a practical basis accidents of birth seem to take precedence. As someone who was not born of Middle-Easterners, or even of a single race/ethnicity, I often reflect on the observed reality and wonder: if all humans are born Muslim and with free will, why is “human nature” and/or the system set up as though the opposite were the case, even though it may not necessarily be? This is a bit like the debate on whether illegitimate children are automatically excluded from the possibility of being good Muslims simply on account of lineage.

Maybe they think that the U.S. government is run by “whites” and that the FBI’s agents (paid employees) are therefore effectively “white,” even if the FBI’s assets (mere informants) are recruited among “nonwhite” Muslims. The assets, by helping the “white” ruling class, are therefore treated as “white,” even if they aren’t. I could be wrong, however.

Let me put the question to you differently. In your experience, was there any sign that the “nonwhite” Muslims (i.e., Arabs, Africans, and so on) disliked the prospect of “white” (i.e., Caucasian) reverts, i.e., that they preferred that the believers only be recruited from within their particular racial and/or ethnic category? My point is, If they could choose, would they have preferred to exclude “white” converts from the fold of Islam, as though the Deen were a “family’s matter” and restricted to their own, “nonwhite” race and/or ethnicity? In other words, at heart did they view Islam as exclusively theirs, so that they actually didn’t want converts of a diverse ethnic and/or racial background?

I’m not trying to assign blame, but merely to understand.

Other than the NOI ( Nation of Islam)  I have never personally experienced this amoung reverts. You find reverts themselves are a pretty diverse group ethnically and culturally and recently Hispanic reverts have overtaken African Americans as the largest revert group in the US by ethnicity / cultural grouping. 

The NOI is a whole other thing because we don't consider them to be Muslims because they believe that there are Prophet after Prophet Muhammad, that white people were created by an evil scientist and are not fully human, that fasting for Ramadan is always in December, etc. Those beliefs take them outside of the fold of Islam because they directly contradict what Holy Quran says and against the Sunnah of Rasoulallah, the parts of the Sunnah that all Muslims agree and accept. 

They consider themselves Muslims though so I included them in the discussion

Most African American reverts are not NOI, btw, they are following one of the 5 Accepted Mathahib (Jurisprudential Schools) , Hanafi, Maliki,Hanbali,Sha3fi, Jafari (Shia)

Edited January 16, 2024 by Abu Hadi

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

Islam is supposed to be community-oriented.

Hi/Salam 

Islam is human kind -oriented  which community means whole of humans although unfortunately due to deviation of of people some people due to rejecting Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)  , so then they have tried to make it exclusive to their ethnic & race due to not getting rid off their  unislamic beliefs which they have inherited from their non muslim ancestors. 

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

but if the community is exclusively tied to a particular race and/or ethnicity, then I fear that I might have a problem

unfortunately it's a great problem which has no base in Islam but on the other hand it's driven from ignorant  people  customs which think their custom & race/ethnicity is Islam anyway even single convert without tying to any particular community anyway you always will have supporters here in SC 

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

“This non-Arab is not worthy of marrying an Arab woman”?

you can find other Musilamah from other nations than Arabs likewise Iranains , Indians , Indonesian , Turks & etc which marriage with a Arab woman is not obligatory.

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

organised Islam seems to follow ethnic and/or racial boundaries.

This is a totally wrong conclusion which original organised Shia Islam doesn't follow ethnic and/or racial boundaries but on the other hand whther organised or not organised four Sunni schools are following  ethnic and/or racial boundaries which unfortunately some Shias have affected from their influence due to suppression of of Shias by them which due to Taqyyia Shias have tried to pretednd that they belong to one of these four Sunni schools which due that affected with ethnic and/or racial boundaries.

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

 if all humans are born Muslim and with free will, why is “human nature” and/or the system set up as though the opposite were the case, even though it may not necessarily be?

This is due that people follow majority & inheritance of their ancestors instead of trying to find right pass through research & returning to their human nature.

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

whether illegitimate children are automatically excluded from the possibility of being good Muslims simply on account of lineage.

Surly no which in shia islam  they only can't have some social status which these status are essential for leadership of community but on the other hand in personal level they can be good muslims even better than legitimate children who have born in a muslim family .

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

Maybe they think that the U.S. government is run by “whites” and that the FBI’s agents (paid employees) are therefore effectively “white,” even if the FBI’s assets (mere informants) are recruited among “nonwhite” Muslims. The assets, by helping the “white” ruling class, are therefore treated as “white,” even if they aren’t. I could be wrong, however.

 

16 hours ago, Northwest said:

Let me put the question to you differently. In your experience, was there any sign that the “nonwhite” Muslims (i.e., Arabs, Africans, and so on) disliked the prospect of “white” (i.e., Caucasian) reverts, i.e., that they preferred that the believers only be recruited from within their particular racial and/or ethnic category? My point is, If they could choose, would they have preferred to exclude “white” converts from the fold of Islam, as though the Deen were a “family’s matter” and restricted to their own, “nonwhite” race and/or ethnicity? In other words, at heart did they view Islam as exclusively theirs, so that they actually didn’t want converts of a diverse ethnic and/or racial background?

This is something that have been spread by American government in similar fashion which enemies of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) likewise cursed Umayyads  & Abbasids & Ottomans have tried to limit being muslim into their race/ethnic which according them Shia muslims are not muslims which even now Wahabis call every Shia muslim as Iranian even if that shia has been born as Arab in an Arab country because still according to them Iranias are not muslims which only their Arab or Turk race/ethnicity are muslims which they follow this discrimination about African  or Indian or Pakistani or east asian which all of them are second or third or lesser class Sunni muslims in comparison to their Arab community which maybe westerners with blue eyes & golden hair maybe a step under Sunni Arabs somwhere between first (Arab) & second class sunnis anyway unfortunately some shias have been affected with this too but in opposition to Sunnis it's not from fundamental teachings of Shia Islam while it's a fundamental matter in four sunni schools of thoughts which have been created for opposing with original teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام)  

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2024 by Ashvazdanghe

[Northwest]

@Ashvazdanghe @Abu Hadi

I appreciate your responses. What do reliable Shia narrations say about the status of different nations, ethnicities, and/or races in the Age of Reappearance? Will there be non-Arab converts at that time, or will all non-Arabs be eliminated, along with all Arab tribes except one? If I recall correctly a narration was posted elsewhere on this forum in which most of the Arab tribes were to be exterminated. This may not be accurate, of course. In regard to non-Arab nations, tribes, etc. I know that some parts of the Hebrew Bible (not the parts that point to Jewish exclusivity) refer to the conversion of the nations in the End of Time, and perhaps some of this reflects the authentic tradition that is also preserved in Shiism, which does not restrict the prospect of salvation to a single tribe. My question is, Are there reliable narrations that expressly point to the conversion of non-Arabs during the Age of Reappearance, such that individuals from other groups become Shias and participate in the Islamic world-government?

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Northwest said:

Will there be non-Arab converts at that time, or will all non-Arabs be eliminated, along with all Arab tribes except one?

Hi/Salam all of people whether Arab or non-Arab will be converted to Islam without elimination of any of them which according to shia narrations majority of army of Imam Mahdi (aj) will be from non-Arab (Ajams) .

The Soldiers of Imam al-Mahdi (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف)

The Nationality of the Soldiers

The forces of Hadrat al-Mahdi (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) will be composed of various nationalities. In the hadiths there are various views in this regard. Sometimes, the soldiers of the Imam (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) have been described as a‘jam—interpreted as non-Arabs.

Some hadiths cite the names of the cities and countries from which soldiers will hasten to assist the Imam (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). At other times, they have mentioned particular communities (aqwam) such as the repentant from among the Children of Israel, the faithful among the Christians, and upright people to be revived in the future, who will assist the Imam (‘a).

Quote

Assuming that they are authentic, the hadiths that talk about the lack of participation of the Arabs can be justified. For, it might be possible that there will be no Arabs among the soldiers who will accompany the Imam at the beginning of the uprising. Shaykh Hurr ‘Amili in the book, Ithbat al-Hudah, has interpreted it this way.

Concerning the Arab cities mentioned in the hadiths, perhaps non-Arab soldiers residing there will hasten to aid the Imam, and not those who are Arab in origin. It may also mean that it refers to Arab governments and states. Let us look at this category of hadiths:

Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) said: “Keep aloof from the Arabs for they will have a gloomy and dangerous future; isn’t it that no one from among them will accompany Hadrat al-Mahdi in his uprising?”25 Shaykh Hurr ‘Amili said: “Perhaps this statement of Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) refers to the beginning of the Mahdi’s uprising, or it alludes to their minimal participation…”

https://www.al-islam.org/overview-mahdis-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف-government-najmuddin-tabasi/soldiers-imam-al-mahdi-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف

[Northwest]

12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi/Salam all of people whether Arab or non-Arab will be converted to Islam without elimination of any of them which according to shia narrations majority of army of Imam Mahdi (aj) will be from non-Arab (Ajams) .

The Soldiers of Imam al-Mahdi (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف)

The Nationality of the Soldiers

The forces of Hadrat al-Mahdi (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) will be composed of various nationalities. In the hadiths there are various views in this regard. Sometimes, the soldiers of the Imam (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) have been described as a‘jam—interpreted as non-Arabs.

Some hadiths cite the names of the cities and countries from which soldiers will hasten to assist the Imam (‘عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف). At other times, they have mentioned particular communities (aqwam) such as the repentant from among the Children of Israel, the faithful among the Christians, and upright people to be revived in the future, who will assist the Imam (‘a).

https://www.al-islam.org/overview-mahdis-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف-government-najmuddin-tabasi/soldiers-imam-al-mahdi-عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف

@Ashvazdanghe Based on the sources, the ethnic identity of these a‘jam seem uncertain. They could as well be Persians of Arab extraction, at least in part. If the a’jam refer to Iranians, then this might well be the case, as there are descendants/relatives of the Prophet’s family in Iran. At any rate, I was not referring to the soldiers/combatants in the Army of the Imam per se. I am asking about ethnicities and/or races beyond the MENA. I do see that the second link mentions a group of Muslims who left the erring Twelve Tribes of Israel and settled in a remote area past China proper (perhaps present-day Xinjiang or Turkestan?). There are also vaguer references to a faithful faction among the Jews and Christians, but without a specific mention of ethnicity, region, etc. But again, I am wondering whether there are narrations that mention followers of the Imam beyond the MENA, who do not comprise the nucleus of the Army per se but nevertheless eventually respond to the call at/after the rising of the Qa‘im.

[Northwest]

After a hiatus, I have returned with some additional questions:

On 1/7/2024 at 11:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

In the US, especially, white reverts are viewed with suspicion because many believe they could be 'infiltrators' or 'agents' of the US Govt. I have talked about this in the past. This is mostly an illogical fear because 'Yes' the US does send spies and infiltrators into Muslims communities, this is known and documented. At the same time, they almost never (I've never actually heard of a case) send in white reverts. ... Very simple if you think about it logically but most people don't think this way, they just react emotionally. At the same time, I don't think this suspicion is racism as much as it is a misguided attempt to protect the community.

@Abu Hadi If racism and/or ethnocentrism does not play a role, then why are white reverts “illogically” mistrusted? Why does emotion prevail over logic?

On 1/7/2024 at 11:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The racism directed toward African Americans and those of African descent with dark skin is another story. This is very real and very common and I haven't seen the communities actually trying to address this directly. 

Can you describe the nature of this racism? Are black converts somehow regarded as unreliable and/or unwanted? If so, why?

[TheWayofTheSalaaf]

As a white European male who reverted in the west, I have not really seen prejudice. Sometimes people are surprised to see a white muslim but never treated poorly. I have had friends who were Sudani, saudi, Irani, and South East Asian. The only group that seemed to stick to their own are people from India and Pakistan. They seem to only marry Pakistanis and Indians and stand off at the masjids in their own groups. All the other ethnicities tend to mix. I went to a wedding that was an Iraqi woman and an afgani man. I've gone to masjid that were completely full of black reverts in very dangerous neighborhoods and was totally safe. They seemed to be a little shocked to see a white guy but went out of their way to be nice. Just my experience.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/2/2025 at 9:30 PM, Northwest said:

 If racism and/or ethnocentrism does not play a role, then why are white reverts “illogically” mistrusted? Why does emotion prevail over logic?

Hi , mistrust to white reverts specially between Shias mostly due to painful memories of past when during colonial era in west Asia some colonial agents have claimed reverting to Islam which after trusting to them by shias so then they betrayed to their trust by spying about their secrets or creating cults & other things which they have acted in similar fashion of poison in body of Shia community so then it has  caused mistrust to white reverts until now which due to painful memories of past Shias in western countries will be wary of them which they have more welcomed in countries likewise Iran & Iraq more than shia communities in the western countries which even case of betrayal of  Catherine Shakdam has not caused mistrust to white reverts in Iran & Iraq . 

On 1/2/2025 at 9:30 PM, Northwest said:

Can you describe the nature of this racism? Are black converts somehow regarded as unreliable and/or unwanted? If so, why?

This totally wrong conclusion by you which as I know black converts have highly welcomed in Iran & Iraq specially in religious cities likewise  of Qom & Najaf & Mashhad which they have highest speed rate of growing between foreign students of Hawzas of Qom & Najaf ; which Shias have sense of  compassion about them because Shias see them as victims of colonialism in similar fashion of themselves . 

[Shaheed786]

On 1/11/2024 at 2:33 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Most masjids in the US are homogeneous, meaning one ethnicity. I can use Dearborn / SE Michigan Metro Area for an example. There are about 10 Shia Masjids that I know of (there are lots of Sunni ones too but I haven't been to any of those). Two are all Pakistani / Indian (Subcontinent), Three Lebanese (the big one on Ford Rd) mostly but some Iraqis. Three are almost all Iraqi, One is mostly Iranian with some Lebanese and Iraqi, and One is an Arab Mixture (Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi, Palestinian, Jordanian) with a few Pakistanis and a few African Americans and a few white people (i.e. the one I go to). 

So out of the 10, one is mixed. This is the issue. In any masjid I have been to, a white person would stand out like a sore thumb. Especially a White person who is almost exclusively Northern European Heritage (blond hair , blue / green eyes). There is a difference between women and men in this regard. If you're a lady with this heritage and your reasonably young and reasonably attractive, you might get a few marriage proposals before you walk out the door. Some women like that attention, some don't. For a man, you'll get the 'Salam Alekum brother' followed by comments to their friends in a language other than English. Some of those comments are benign, but sometimes they are not. I have been in the community long enough to know enough Arabic to know when people are talking about me and the general gist of what they are saying, although most of the time I don't understand every word. Since they can't imagine that I know any Arabic, they are usually unrestricted in their comments even if they are standing right next to me. If I want to be really naughty, I will start speaking Arabic to them (after waiting for them to finish their commentary), and watch their jaw drop and their face change color followed by awkward silence and then maybe some rushed apologies before they walk away. 

So this is my personal experience. It is difficult to gather data on this subject and do a proper study since there are so few 'white looking' (what people who don't live around white people thing white people look like) Muslim men, outside of maybe Eastern Europe or Russia. 

This is why you have so few white revert men in the US / Canada, etc. There are many who believe the religion of Islam is the truth, and they want to follow it, but then dealing with these kinds of situations puts them off in an extreme way to where most of them end up either leaving the religion altogether or just live a life of solidary, quiet reflection away from the 'community'. I have met more than a few brothers on SC who are in that category. 

I have been in the community long enough where I have my circle of friends and associates that have known me for years, know my family, some even know my wife's family so I don't have to deal with those kinds of things with them, but every time I meet a new group or go to a different masjid, it's the same thing, like a loop on a record. 

This is human nature. People notice things that stand out. Since the typical 'TV Show' FBI agent is a white man in a suit, they just assume 'well he looks like that guy in a suit' kind of thing (even though I don't wear a suit and actually hate wearing ties especially). You stand out, you kinda look like that guy on that T.V. show, well you must be FBI then. This is the extent of most people's thinking, unfortunately Muslims are not that much different. The ones with Taqwa and the educated ones are not like this, but they are a small minority in most communities. 

The real FBI actually counts on this phenomenon and uses it to their advantage. If you look at how the FBI really operates, not the Hollywood version, it is much different. If you watch documentaries  (from trustworthy sources) about how the FBI actually operates, they typically have a field office in a city and the main job of this field office is to recruit 'agents' from within the community they are trying to get information from. They always look for three things. First, someone who can come and go unnoticed, i.e. stealth mode. They look and act just like everyone in the Community. Second, they are highly familiar with the language and culture of the community. Third and most important, they have access to the information the FBI wants. In Muslim communities, this usually means they have 'status' meaning they come from a prominent family or are an alim. In Dearborn, at least, of the agents who have been 'outed' , i.e. found out by the community, all of them ticked these boxes. None were white, btw, or reverts but like I said people's thinking seldom goes this deep to actually consider the facts, lol. 

Reversion is between you and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so no group could discourage it, even if they wanted to. I have never met anyone who will actually say 'I want to discourage someone from reverting'. A muslim would never put it into those words, at least I've never heard it. What does happen though, as far as most Muslims, is that their behaviour is mostly a result of their understanding of Islam thru the cultural lens that was given to them by their parents / community and they never bother to investigate whether this is actually Islam, i.e. the teaching of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)). Their mode of behaviour 'works for them' as far as their goals in the dunya, so they just keep doing it. That is why Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) said 'Most people are asleep (throughout their life) and when they die they wake up'. This was said about people in general, including Muslims. They go thru life on auto pilot until something happens where they now don't have the autopilot anymore, i.e. death where you then see the true reality of yourself and the world around you. 

If you believe that there is no God but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Muhammad is the Messenger of God then you should revert. Life is inherently challenging, whether you are a Muslim or non Muslim. These challenges shouldn't scare you away from reverting because if you didn't go thru these challenges. you would go thru other ones, maybe things that are even more challenging. That is the nature of the dunya (lower realm). The difference is that if you revert you will 'get credit' for going thru these challenges so long as you are sincerely seeking to build your relationship with God. All that is required to build this relationship is sincerity in wanting to build it. There are no other requirements. That is why it says in the Holy Quran 'When my servant asks about me tell them I am near'. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) use the first person pronoun 'I' or Ana in Arabic to show that He(s.w.a) is with anyone who is sincere, one on one, and listens to their requests and will answer them, although maybe not right away. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask here or pm me. 

Salaam, you really hit the nail on the head. As someone of mixed decent, I experience this regularly. Where I live, we have a lot of Muslims and many Shia, however most of the centers/masjids are predominantly South Asian (with a smattering of Iranian, Arab and Afghan centers). In those predominantly South Asian centers people like me tend to stand out like a sore thumb. Its very hard to have a casual conversation without people immediately interrogating you about where you're from, or just seeming generally uncomfortable.

My situation is even more complicated than yours in some ways, because I come from a mixed background where one of my parents is south Asian, and since I don't look like what they consider "typical" for that region, people assume I am "white" or perhaps Iranian or Arab. I have had people ask me if I am a revert, only to get confused and bewildered when I tell them I have South Asian ancestry, almost as if they would have preferred if I had been a convert, since it would be more straightforward in their minds and align with how I appear (or act?) to them. I'm sure there are cases of people having suspicion or uneasiness towards reverts, but in the case of south Asian people, whose culture I am fairly familiar with, I know a lot of it is racial and colonial baggage. There are deep-seated complexes that revolve around colorism, ethnicity and race within that community. In my experience people prefer when they can put others conveniently "in a box" and when the situation is a bit more complicated or nuanced than that, they become uncomfortable with it because it challenges their rigid worldviews. 

I have also found that a lot of centers, at least in this region, still tend to be dominated by first generation immigrants from those countries, who are used to living in ethnically, or at least culturally homogenous societies. Especially Pakistanis, who in my experience tend to be very provincial and unable to relate to anything non-Pakistani. There are now a lot of 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation Muslims in the west, but in my experience unfortunately they tend to be less religious or at least much less engaged with the masjids - maybe somewhat for these very reasons - so consequently the first generation immigrants (and there are always new waves of people) tend to dominate those centers and bring their cultural baggage with them and are less inclusive by default. It's still quite common to find centers that don't have any English programs. 

And don't get me started on the Khojas. I am not here to put down any community or individual. They have many great qualities as a community, including how organized and engaged they are, and their ability to build strong institutions. But going to their centers is like experiencing exclusivity on steroids. They make non-Khojas (and this includes other South Asians) feel like intruders in some secret gathering. I once heard a lecture that Sayed Ammar Nakshawani made at a Khoja center where he admonished them (playfully), to remember to retain the spirit of the Ahlulbayt in their centers and not let them devolve into simply "East African Social Clubs." 

I think the key, as you said is being able to settle down within a community for long enough that you have an established circle of people that know you well, but unfortunately I believe a lot of people stop going to centers because they feel ignored or unwelcome. As Muslims it is so important that we focus on akhlaq and that communities learn to step out of their bubbles. I wish more Sheikhs would speak about these subjects because they are important. 

As you have said, and I have realized over the years, is that life is not perfect or idyllic, there are always challenges or problems. people are people, and they often unconsciously bring their blind spots and baggage with them, whether they are Muslim or not. At the end of the day I am grateful that we at least have centers and active communities in the West. Things can always be improved but there is much to be grateful for in life. 

Edited Saturday at 01:09 AM by Shaheed786