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In the Name of God بسم الله

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رواه سعد بن عبد الله الأشعري قال: حدثني أبو هاشم داود بن القاسم الجعفري قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن عليه السلام وقت وفاة ابنه أبي جعفر – وقد كان أشار إليه ودل عليه – فإني لافكر في نفسي وأقول: هذه قضية أبي إبراهيم وقضية إسماعيل، فأقبل علي أبو الحسن عليه السلام فقال: نعم يا أبا هاشم بدا لله تعالى في أبي جعفر وصير مكانه أبا محمد، كما بدا لله في إسماعيل بعدما دل عليه أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ونصبه، وهو كما حدثت به نفسك وإن كره المبطلون، أبو محمد ابني الخلف من بعدي عنده ما تحتاجون إليه ومعه آلة الإمامة والحمد لله


Sa`d bin `Abdullah al-‘Ash`ari said: abu Hashim Dawoud bin al-Qassim al-Ja`fari said: I was with Imam abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) when his son abu Ja`far died -and he had pointed to him and appointed him- So I started thinking to myself: “This is similar to the case of Imam abu Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and Isma`il.” so abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) came to me and said: “Yes O abu Hashim, it appeared to Allah in abu Ja`far and he replaced him with abu Muhammad, it also appeared to Allah in Isma`il after his father abu `Abdullah had pointed to him and appointed him, it is exactly as you thought to yourself even if the haters will hate. abu Muhammad my son is my successor after me, he has what you need and the Imamah praise be to Allah.”

source: Ghaybat al-Tusi, page 200.
grading: SAHIH.

Lol, foolishness in its peak

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27 minutes ago, hanbali said:

رواه سعد بن عبد الله الأشعري قال: حدثني أبو هاشم داود بن القاسم الجعفري قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن عليه السلام وقت وفاة ابنه أبي جعفر – وقد كان أشار إليه ودل عليه – فإني لافكر في نفسي وأقول: هذه قضية أبي إبراهيم وقضية إسماعيل، فأقبل علي أبو الحسن عليه السلام فقال: نعم يا أبا هاشم بدا لله تعالى في أبي جعفر وصير مكانه أبا محمد، كما بدا لله في إسماعيل بعدما دل عليه أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ونصبه، وهو كما حدثت به نفسك وإن كره المبطلون، أبو محمد ابني الخلف من بعدي عنده ما تحتاجون إليه ومعه آلة الإمامة والحمد لله


Sa`d bin `Abdullah al-‘Ash`ari said: abu Hashim Dawoud bin al-Qassim al-Ja`fari said: I was with Imam abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) when his son abu Ja`far died -and he had pointed to him and appointed him- So I started thinking to myself: “This is similar to the case of Imam abu Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and Isma`il.” so abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) came to me and said: “Yes O abu Hashim, it appeared to Allah in abu Ja`far and he replaced him with abu Muhammad, it also appeared to Allah in Isma`il after his father abu `Abdullah had pointed to him and appointed him, it is exactly as you thought to yourself even if the haters will hate. abu Muhammad my son is my successor after me, he has what you need and the Imamah praise be to Allah.”

source: Ghaybat al-Tusi, page 200.
grading: SAHIH.

Lol, foolishness in its peak

What is there foolish about? 

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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

What is there foolish about? 

It appeared to allah that ismail is an imam after jafar so he appointed ismail, then when he died during Ja'far's time, it appeared to allah that kazim is an imam after him so he appointed kazim.

Lol

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Just now, hanbali said:

It appeared to allah that ismail is an imam after jafar so he appointed ismail, then when he died during Ja'far's time, it appeared to allah that kazim is an imam after him so he appointed kazim.

Lol

Better word will be manifested that Ismael woul be the successor but then Allah have choosed kadhim instead. There is nothing foolishness here. 

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41 minutes ago, hanbali said:

رواه سعد بن عبد الله الأشعري قال: حدثني أبو هاشم داود بن القاسم الجعفري قال: كنت عند أبي الحسن عليه السلام وقت وفاة ابنه أبي جعفر – وقد كان أشار إليه ودل عليه – فإني لافكر في نفسي وأقول: هذه قضية أبي إبراهيم وقضية إسماعيل، فأقبل علي أبو الحسن عليه السلام فقال: نعم يا أبا هاشم بدا لله تعالى في أبي جعفر وصير مكانه أبا محمد، كما بدا لله في إسماعيل بعدما دل عليه أبو عبد الله عليه السلام ونصبه، وهو كما حدثت به نفسك وإن كره المبطلون، أبو محمد ابني الخلف من بعدي عنده ما تحتاجون إليه ومعه آلة الإمامة والحمد لله


Sa`d bin `Abdullah al-‘Ash`ari said: abu Hashim Dawoud bin al-Qassim al-Ja`fari said: I was with Imam abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) when his son abu Ja`far died -and he had pointed to him and appointed him- So I started thinking to myself: “This is similar to the case of Imam abu Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and Isma`il.” so abu al-Hassan (عليه السلام) came to me and said: “Yes O abu Hashim, it appeared to Allah in abu Ja`far and he replaced him with abu Muhammad, it also appeared to Allah in Isma`il after his father abu `Abdullah had pointed to him and appointed him, it is exactly as you thought to yourself even if the haters will hate. abu Muhammad my son is my successor after me, he has what you need and the Imamah praise be to Allah.”

source: Ghaybat al-Tusi, page 200.
grading: SAHIH.

Lol, foolishness in its peak

 

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12 minutes ago, hanbali said:

No problem here is a shi'i site translating almost the same.

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/27/1/33/5

This translation is almost there, because it does not translate Bada as "appeared" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But I disagree about the translation of change of destiny thing. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decreed something, then it is fully happening and there is no change.

The arabic says: Badaa lillahi ta'ala fi abi Ja'far...makanahu

No one will translate this as It's appeared to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because it is a contradiction itself. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) do not change His mind and Bada is not God changing His mind.

Bada is very simple concept that is found in Qur'anic verses like this:

(7:142) And We appointed for Moses thirty nights, to which We added ten, whereby the term of forty nights set by his Lord was fulfilled.99 And Moses said to Aaron, his brother: 'Take my place among my people, act righteously, and do not follow the path of those who create mischief.'100

Here it appeared to Musa (عليه السلام) that it is thirty days, but then God added ten. In God viewpoint it was always 40 days, but it is for humans that what really appeared as change from 30 to 40. It is Qadar that Musa (عليه السلام) was appointed for 40 days, but Bada trough our viewpoint that it changed from 30 to 40 days.

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17 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

This translation is almost there, because it does not translate Bada as "appeared" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But I disagree about the translation of change of destiny thing. If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decreed something, then it is fully happening and there is no change.

The arabic says: Badaa lillahi ta'ala fi abi Ja'far...makanahu

No one will translate this as It's appeared to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), because it is a contradiction itself. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) do not change His mind and Bada is not God changing His mind.

Bada is very simple concept that is found in Qur'anic verses like this:

(7:142) And We appointed for Moses thirty nights, to which We added ten, whereby the term of forty nights set by his Lord was fulfilled.99 And Moses said to Aaron, his brother: 'Take my place among my people, act righteously, and do not follow the path of those who create mischief.'100

Here it appeared to Musa (عليه السلام) that it is thirty days, but then God added ten. In God viewpoint it was always 40 days, but it is for humans that what really appeared as change from 30 to 40. It is Qadar that Musa (عليه السلام) was appointed for 40 days, but Bada trough our viewpoint that it changed from 30 to 40 days.

That doesn't prove anything about bada. That's about qadr. Allah knew that at the last day moses will come after doing miswak which allah will correct him. This is similar to when someone make dua to allah and allah change  the taqdeer while allah knew that the person will make dua and he will change it.

Basically allah made apparent to musa half, he didn't tell him in full that I'm appointing to you 30 days and i know in the last day you will come to me after doing miswak after then I will add 10 more.

This cannot be said about appointment of imam. This is like saying it appeared to allah that ismail was the imam and he appointed him then he died then it appeared to allah that kazim should be imam, while all of these allah already knew that ismail was never meant to be imam. The stupidity of this claim is not even need to be said. If ismail wasn't meant to be imam and allah knew this from his eternal knowledge then why did it appeared to allah and appointed ismail in the first place.

This was one of the biggest proofs against you by all other sect. And it also shows how reactionary your sect was.

Al-Nawbakhti, the Shia historian relates his story and his arguments against the Imamis:  

لما أشار جعفر بن محمد إلى إمامة ابنه إسماعيل ثم مات إسماعيل في حياة أبيه رجعوا عن إمامة جعفر وقالوا كذبنا ولم يكن إماما لأن الإمام لا يكذب ولا يقول ما لا يكون، وحكوا عن جعفر أنه قال إن الله عز وجل بدا له في إمامة اسماعيل، فأنكروا البداء والمشيئة من الله وقالوا هذا باطل لا يجوز، ومالوا إلى مقالة البترية ومقالة سليمان بن جرير وهو الذي قال لأصحابه بهذا السبب إن أئمة الرافضة وضعوا لشيعتهم مقالتين لا يظهرون معهما من أئمتهم على كذب أبدا وهما القول بالبداء وإجازة التقية، فأما البداء فإن أئمتهم لما أحلوا أنفسهم من شيعنهم محل الأنبياء من رعيتها في العلم فيما كان ويكون والإخبار بما يكون في غد وقالوا لشيعتهم إنه سيكون في غد وفي غابر الأيام كذا وكذا فإن جاء ذلك الشيء على ما قالوه قالوا لهم: ألم نعلمكم أن هذا يكون فنحن نعلم من قبل الله عز وجل ما علمته الأنبياء وبيننا وبين الله عز وجل مثل تلك الأسباب التي علمت بها الأنبياء عن الله ما علمت، وإن لم يكن ذلك الشيء الذي قالوا إنه يكون على ما قالوا قالوا لشيعتهم: بدا لله في ذلك [فلم] يكونه. وأما التقية فإنه لما كثرت على أئمتهم مسائل شيعنهم في الحلال والحرام وغير ذلك من صنوف أبواب الدين فأجابوا فيها وحفظ عنهم شيعتهم جواب ما سألوهم وكتبوه ودونوه ولم يحفظ أئمتهم تلك الأجوبة لتقادم العهد وتفاوت الأوقات لأن مسائلهم لم ترد في يوم واحد ولا في شهر واحد بل في سنين متباعدة وأشهر متباينة وأوقات متفرقة فوقع في أيديهم في المسألة الواحدة عدة أجوبة مختلفة متضادة وفي مسائل مختلفة أجوبة متفقة، فلما وقفوا على ذلك منهم ردوا إليهم هذا الاختلاف والتخليط في جواباتهم وسألوهم عنه وأنكروه عليهم فقالوا: من أين هذا الاختلاف وكيف جاز ذلك؟ قالت لهم أئمتهم: إنما أجبنا بهذا للتقية ولنا أن نجيب بما أحببنا وكيف شئنا لأن ذلك إلينا ونحن نعلم بما يصلحكم وما فيه بقاؤنا وبقاؤكم وكف عدوكم عنا وعنكم؛ فمتى يظهر من هؤلاء على كذب ومتى يعرف لهم حق من باطل؟ فمال إلى سليمان بن جرير هذا لهذا القول جماعة من أصحاب أبي جعفر وتركوا القول بإمامة جعفر عليهما السلام .  

When Ja'afar bin Mohammad pointed towards the Imamate of his son Isma'eel, he (Isma'eel) died during the life of his father, and they (the Imamis) turned away from the Imamate of Ja'afar. They said, "We were lied upon, and the Imam does not lie, nor does he say what doesn't happen." They narrated from Ja'afar that he said that bada'a (what was hidden has become apparent) occured to Allah as to what would happen to the Imamate of Isma'eel. They turned away from bada'a and the will of Allah and said that this is false and not permissible. They shifted to the view of the Batriyyah.  As for the statement of Sulaiman bin Jareer, who said to his companions that the Imams of the Rafidha created two ideological view, which prevents them from ever finding an apparent lie from the Imams, which are bada'a and taqiyyah.  (Sulaiman bin Jareer said:) As for bada'a, when the Imams have taken the station of prophets amongst their people, in the knowledge of past and future, they told their Shias, "Tomorrow, such and such will happen." If that matter occurred, they said, "Didn't we tell you that this would happen?! We knew this from Allah what the prophets knew from Him, and between us and Allah are the causes of which how the prophets knew from Allah what they knew." However, if that matter that they said would happen didn't occur, they would said, "Bada'a has occurred to Allah, so it didn't happen."   As for taqiyyah, for when there were so many questions regarding the halal and haram and other matters that they responded to, and these answers were memorized, written, and documented, by their Shias, and the Imams themselves didn't memorize their answers due to the passage of time, for their questions didn't occur in one day, nor one month, but were years and months apart, and different times, they answered a question with many contradicting answers, and contradicting answers with a similar answer. So, when they were encountered due to these contradictions in their answers, were condemned,  and they were asked, "Where did these contradictions come from, and how is this possible?" The Imams responded, "Our responses were taqiyyah, and we can answer in whichever way we want, for that is to us, and we know what is best for you, and what will cause us both to last, and what prevents our enemies from us."  So, how is it possible for their lies to be apparent and how is it possible to know their truth from their falsehood?!  Al-Nawbakhti comments: And so, a group of the companions of Abi Ja'afar joined Sulaiman bin Jareer and left the opinion that Ja'afar (عليه السلام) is the Imam.

 

Edited by hanbali
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7 hours ago, hanbali said:

That doesn't prove anything about bada. That's about qadr. Allah knew that at the last day moses will come after doing miswak which allah will correct him. This is similar to when someone make dua to allah and allah change  the taqdeer while allah knew that the person will make dua and he will change it.

Basically allah made apparent to musa half, he didn't tell him in full that I'm appointing to you 30 days and i know in the last day you will come to me after doing miswak after then I will add 10 more.

If you take it slowly and ponder to what I said, you will not make such a comment. When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) makes something to us apparent and then He later decide to add or remove different terms, then that becomes Bada for the person. The Qadr is the final outcome. Ill make it easier for you:

from Wikishia:

Badāʾ' (Arabic: بَداء) is a terminology in theology, meaning that God reveals to people something other than what they thought would happen. However, when bada' is used about people, it refers to their changing their decisions.

In the Qur'an, there are several verses concerning the notion of bada' and its instances; for example, "Allah makes to pass away and establishes what he pleases" (Quran 13:39); in a commentary on this verse, Imam al-Sadiq (a) says: "is not it the case that Allah makes to pass away what is established, and establishes what has passed away?"[4]

Quote

This cannot be said about appointment of imam. This is like saying it appeared to allah that ismail was the imam and he appointed him then he died then it appeared to allah that kazim should be imam, while all of these allah already knew that ismail was never meant to be imam. The stupidity of this claim is not even need to be said. If ismail wasn't meant to be imam and allah knew this from his eternal knowledge then why did it appeared to allah and appointed ismail in the first place.

By the definition of Bada, it is applicable.

Quote

Al-Nawbakhti, the Shia historian relates his story and his arguments against the Imamis:  

I could care less what they argued.

Quote

The stupidity of this claim is not even need to be said.  If ismail wasn't meant to be imam and allah knew this from his eternal knowledge then why did it appeared to allah and appointed ismail in the first place.

Because it is an test. Something your Salafi mind can not comprehend , similar with bani Israel starting to doubt about Musa (عليه السلام) because he was longer than the appointed time:

When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods[a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

Edited by Abu Nur
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16 hours ago, hanbali said:

They shifted to the view of the Batriyyah.  As for the statement of Sulaiman bin Jareer, who said to his companions that the Imams of the Rafidha created two ideological view, which prevents them from ever finding an apparent lie from the Imams, which are bada'a and taqiyyah.  (Sulaiman bin Jareer said:) As

Salam this is a strong proof about validity of Twelver belief which opponent of infallible Imam has been Sulaiman bin Jareer who opposed  Twelver viewpoint about bada'a and taqiyyah so he has created his sect as Batriyyah which his artificial sect has been perished in a short time but Twelver sect has survived until now which now nobody believes to false belief of  Batriyyah. 

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